HaKatan

CTRebbe:
I would venture to guess that some have parents or others helping them with their housing or they are otherwise living in sub-standard conditions, which therefore enables them to afford some “luxuries”.

But it is not normal to need help from your parents, even when you are both working.

Regarding out-of-town, in most cases that means, maybe, as low as $300,000 instead of, say, $500,000, (figure $10,000 per year saved) and possible lower taxes (figure $5,000 per year saved), though usually higher tuitions would more than make up that ($15,000) difference.

Either way, it’s still insanely expensive. 40 years ago, salaries were not much lower than now, but house prices were less than just the down-payment is now. Meaning, say, $60,000 for a house, not $600,000. And taxes were also thousands less.

The bottom line is that unless someone else is paying the down-payment and perhaps even more than that, a middle-class typical frum family cannot afford to pay tuitions and buy a house in a typical frum area.

@se2015
I want to understand this liberal “logic”.
A woman has a “right to choose” to murder her unborn/partially born infant. But that same woman (or man) cannot choose to forgo a vaccine?

Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro has a nice shiur on this topic:
if I understood correctly, the answer is that this way we could earn MORE reward. Otherwise, everyone would just be the same…

akuperma:
Secular colleges also have mixing of genders (an issue not only during online classes but perhaps for group projects and the like), the horrific modern culture which pervades them including some of the courses, which they might require, that are anti-Torah to the core, and more real problems.

The pritzus issue alone, even in a virtual classroom, is enough reason to avoid secular colleges.

That’s besides for “minor” issues, like classes or exams scheduled on Shabbos/Yom Tov, etc.

My prior posts in response haven’t been approved.
I
l’ll try again.

The איסור להתגרות באומות העולם is just as in force as it always has been since the start of galus.

However, if we look to both Chanukah and Purim, we see an interesting difference, which Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro points out in various media.

On Chanukah, we used the tools of Esav against the misyavnim and yevanim, because the latter groups’ target was the Torah, not us, so we had to defend the Torah by even resorting to Esav’s tools when needed.

By contrast, on Purim, we used our tools to annul the gezeira, namely Tefillah and Teshuva, because the target then was “only” us, not the Torah, so using Esav’s tools would not have worked there. Obviously, the story continues from there, but that’s besides the point.

Same with the Zionists (Esav’s tools have still not achieved the Zionists even a single day of peace in its bloody existence).

This particular words of this (not very “well known”) “community activist” are not indicative of the rest of Klal Yisrael. However, it is a chutzpah and rishus for the authorities to close down the shuls (10 people only no matter what is the building size?), especially at this point.

@always_ask_questions
Your recent posts are somewhat ironic given your screen name.
My post clearly delineated multiple reasons why wearing a mask or not doing so do not carry halachic implications including Chilul Hashem.

I would be interested to know to which Rav you refer, or at least in which Yeshiva he learned and how long ago, etc. But that’s not really relevant, anyways, I guess.

rational:
Excellent post, in my humble opinion.
However, I think that there is a difference here.
The Governor and Mayor are essentially imposing a gezeiras shmad. No shuls, no schools, etc.

On Chanukah, we fought the Yevanim, even with actual tools of war, Esav’s tools, because they threatened the Torah. Whereas, on Purim, when it was “only” our lives that were threatened, we did teshuva, davened, etc. until the gezeirah was nullified. And the story continues there.

This current period whatever precise context it may be, includes this gezeiras shmad, which is also, liHavdil, also against our constitutional rights.

So that seems to call for a vocal defense of the Torah, including Agudath Israel’s lawsuit against this terrible over-reach by the City and State governments.

n0 mesorah:

Zionism as in ideology, and as embodied by the State of Israel, is anti-Torah and (therefore) anti-Judaism.

Zionism attempts to change the Jewish people’s perception of themselves (never mind the danger to Jews R”L of the gentiles believing this Big Lie) from a Torah-based nation to a godless Nationalist/idolatrous nation.

This hasn’t changed and, as mentioned, this is more important to them (and lethal, Ch”V to Judaism) than the Zionists having achieved a State in 1948. The corruption of the definition of a Jew is far worse. Once you remove Hashem and the Torah from the picture, you are left with…Zionism? Atheism? Certainly nothing Jewish.

Regarding your assessment of the sefarim, I don’t know what you mean about the “future” not happening as they expected.

The bottom line is that we will always have a place to live in galus until Mashiach comes. Of course, the Zionists did their best in WW II to prevent Jews from going anywhere other than Palestine even if that meant their alternative was the Nazi gas chambers.

But to throw away the Torah because of a question of “where will we go from here” is simply silly. There always will be a place to live in galus. And there would have been more even during the Holocaust were it not for the Zionists’ evil treachery and prioritizing Zionism above all else.

Starting a State at a cost of the Jewish religion, not to mention billions of dollars and tens of thousands of Jewish lives and inflaming anti-semitism, etc. etc. is absurd. It’s also extremely deadly, because the punishment stated for doing specifically that is “Ani mattir es bisarchem…” R”L L”A.

n0 mesorah:
I wish I could better understand your post so that I could attempt to answer it. But it seems that your understanding of Torah Judaism and liHavdil, both history and Zionism, might have to do with this communications gap.

Regarding Zionism, please see my post to yichusdik above.

Please also look up Yaldei Teiman and Yaldei Tehran. And the recent (and current) battles against the Zionists to stop them from closing the yeshivos by drafting Yeshiva boys into their shmad army.

Much more importantly, please read what all the gedolim have written about Zionism from even before 1948, like, for example, Rav Elchanan Wasserman (including in the name of his Rebbi, the Chofetz Chaim), and also from after 1948, like Rav Reuven Grozovsky’s Biayos haZman and the Satmar Rav’s sefarim (on which nobody of note has argued except on minor points like davening at the Kosel and on Israeli citizens voting in Israeli elections).

Regarding all of the factors, you could, of course, get a very nicely packaged and thorough view of all of this and much, much more by learning Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro’s sefer, The Empty Wagon.

He clarifies many misconceptions and debunks many myths, and sheds much (and much-needed) light on this very misunderstood sugya.

ubiquitin:

So interesting how daas baal haBayis is exactly the opposite of daas Torah. The Chazon Ish didn’t think the Zionist state would last even 50 years. So Israel is already well beyond its expected life-span of shmad and, please G-d, we will all see this idol (among all others) disappear (with no harm cH”V to any Jews), as we all just davened yesterday and will again in one week.

maintou:
Perhaps it is you who hasn’t learned the sugya.

Yeshivish rockstar:
Regarding “increase hatred of Jews in the world”, Rabbi YB Soloveichik, himself, is on record that Zionism/the State of Israel has enormously increased hatred of Jews world-wide, as Rabbi Shapiro quotes.

Of course, those blinded by the idol of Zionism would find it very hard to see that, but if you would actually read Rabbi Shapiro’s sefer then you would realize that this is really quite obvious.

The Zionists arrogantly and very fraudulently proclaim themselves the representatives of Jews worldwide. Therefore, if a gentile believes that Zionist Big Lie (liHavdil, unfortunately, many Jews believe the immense propaganda the Zionists constantly crank out), then, when the Zionists do something the Gentile doesn’t like, then it would make sense that the gentile would therefore have a lower opinion of Jews.

But, again, it’s all a Big Lie. The Zionists represent nobody other than themselves (Zionists). They do not represent world Jewry, and never have. Even the (observant) Jews who live under the Zionist jack-boot are there only because they don’t want to leave the holy land, not because they want anything to do with the Zionists, who are unwanted invaders of the Holy Land.

“Yeshivish Rockstar”:
In addition to your having violated the grave issur of bizui talmid chacham (on Rabbi Shapiro), you have also made the common Zionist error of conflating the Zionist idol/State and, liHavdil Eretz Yisrael.

The Satmar Rav said decades ago that if the Zionists wanted out, they could tell the Gentile nations and the Gentile nations would figure out a way to take over politically while protecting our brethren there. He is, of course, right (not that he needs my haskama) and I addressed this above.

Regarding yishuv haAretz, there is a machlokes regarding whether or not that mitzva is applicable today. And other mitzvos may supersede that mitzva, even according to those that it is in force today.

Regardless, though, there is no need for the Zionists to be able to fulfill mitzvas yeshivas haAretz. If there were a normal Western-style Gentile government in that land, (which was what would have happened had the Zionists not invaded E”Y, never mind that Moshiach would have come, as both the Brisker and Satmar Rabbanim stated) and as there is in the USA, the UK, et al. then Jews would simply buy property in E”Y and live there under Gentile rule, just as millions of Jews do elsewhere in galus.

So there is no reason you can’t live in E”Y without the Zionists. To the contrary, it would be far better to live in E”Y without the Zionists than with the Zionists.

It’s also too bad that the Zionists have inflamed the hatred of the Arabs for a century (including well before 1948) while the Zionists falsely claimed to represent the Jews. Then, the Jews could have continued living in Arab countries, as some do even today. But the Zionists need(ed) Jewish blood to sacrifice on the altar of their idolatrous State, and, just as important to the Zionists, they also needed to rid those Jews of any attachment to Torah as well, so they used any means necessary to get Jews to come to their State (and still employ various propaganda and other tactics today to the same end) and also to shmad them, as is well known.

manitou:
What other pshat in the three oaths do you know of? From which Halachic decisor?

The main issue is that you, and others, haven’t read Rabbi Shapiro’s sefer. Then you might know the “main issue” and the other issues.

Regarding giving up the State, that’s not what he advocates, though the Satmar Rav did say that if the Zionists went to the Nations saying they want out, then the Nations would find a way to figure that out while protecting our brethren there.

If you think about it, this makes much sense from a political perspective. It is quite obvious that the gentiles only tolerate what some even publicly call “that #[email protected] little country”, to quote that ambassador, simply because of the interests of their respective nations. So they would presumably be quite happy to take over whatever Zionist assets they could in the event of the Zionists choosing to leave the Holy Land.

Regarding your other baseless conclusion that Jews should “finally recognize that this is what Hashem wants”, the same could have been said about the Holocaust (gasp!), the meraglim and, most appropriately in comparison, the Egel haZahav.

Yet the entire shevet Leivi did not agree with that “logic”. Hashem, of course, did not either agree, for that matter. Similarly, no Jew, today, with any knowledge of the idolatry and heresy of Zionism, should G-d forbid believe in this idol of Zionism.

“And any Jewish ideology could be accused of the same sin.”

I have no idea how that reads as a true statement.

Actually, I do. A Jewish anything, including ideology, is one that is in full accordance with the Torah and mesorah. So if you define a Jewish ideology as a foreign ideology that conflicts in even a small way with the Torah and that happens to have Jewish proponents, etc. then your statement is true.

By contrast, my statement, in context, meant, as stated that it is simply impossible to accept anything that tampers with “Torah Hashem Temima”, all the more so if it jettisons the Torah entirely, in favor of anything else including Nationalism and/or pagan land worship. All flavors of Zionism lie somewhere on the spectrum mentioned here, as stated.

an Israeli Yid:
Rabbi Hoffman writes well, but the article he wrote about the sefer was not a review of the sefer. I read both. Multiple times.

As to Rabbi Shapiro’s portrayal of Zionism, his portrayal is absolutely right: any attempt to rewrite Hashem and/or the Torah out of the definition of a Jew (or even remix that), is heresy and absolutely unacceptable to Hashem and the Torah and, therefore, to any Jew who cares about the same. And that remix or excision of Hashem and the Torah from Judaism is Zionism. Whatever your preferred flavor.

Regarding those who think that Zionism is a matter of history and not relevant anymore:
1. they should probably (re-)read Rabbi Shapiro’s sefer. You can postulate about post-Zionism as much as you want, but he brings specific examples to show that the State of Israel is very much a Zionist state, and that the core issues have not changed, just as any gadol would tell you.
2. they should note that the WZO is, unfortunately, still very much “real” and that R”L tens of thousands of (frum) Jews (according to the WZO’s web site) were recently fooled into voting in the recent WZO elections, against the vehement opposition to doing so by Rav Aharon Feldman, Rav Moshe Sternbuch, as well all of Lakewood/BMG and many, many others.

Had more people (or their Rabbanim) learned Rabbi Shapiro’s sefer prior to the WZO voting period, then perhaps they would have known better than to join this wicked group (WZO/Zionism), etc.

anonymous Jew:
Last you checked, the three oaths are not halacha?

Have you ever opened any of the numerous sefarim by halachic decisors quoted by the Satmar Rav (and, lhbc”c, in Rabbi Shapiro’s sefer as well)?

As well, the Rambam invoked them as halacha in his Iggeres Teiman.

In other words, have you ever actually checked that they are not brought down halacha (as mentioned, they are brought down as halacha by numerous halachic decisors), or are you just assuming that?

Avi K:
Every gadol of any stature from Rav Chaim Brisker (grandfather of your “Rav”) and on held very clearly that Zionism is an idol.

Unfortunately, the Zionist shmad machine is immense, and that “Institution on the Hudson”, as Rav Keller Zatza”L put it very, very mildly, promotes as a religious value this idolatry of Zionism, along with other Maskilic values. So it’s not the fault of anyone who studied at that institution if they have absolutely no concept of authentic Judaism.

The naivete and sheer silliness of “Religious Zionism” is astounding. That’s not motzi shem ra; it’s simply fact and, again, as Rav Schwab wrote, the MO are to be pitied, not CH”V hated, for their heretical views (including Zionism) due to their controversial role models, etc.

Rav Schwab (among many others), under whose movement (TIDE) the MO tried to take cover, stated clearly that there is absolutely no masoretic source anywhere that allows for Zionism, and there is similarly no such source for the heresy of “Religious Zionism”.

DY:
No, it’s a very apt comparison.
In Israel, SOME of those Jews in the IDF may have died protecting Jews. Similarly, in other countries’ armies, Jews have also died protecting Jews (and, of course, other citizens of their host country, just like in Israel).

So where is the comparable inherent holiness in, say, Arlington National Cemetery?

Yichusdik, Mount Herzl is a Zionist military cemetery. Zionists fight in the Zionist army to promote or defend Zionism, not necessarily to save Jewish lives. In fact, sometimes, they fight knowing that they will be sacrificing Jewish lives, CH”V, whether for political or other considerations (more land, etc.).

Zionism, as we know, is anti-Jewish to the core, attempting to remake the Torah-based Jewish people into a new gentile Nation-State-based Hebrew people whose ancestors happened to have been Jewish. The Zionist army is obviously NOT a place of “kedusha”, in the Torah’s (i.e. non-Zionist) usage of the word.

So your characterization of those on Mount Herzl as “kedoshim” and “gave their lives to save Jews” seems “off”.

As well, your claim that visiting Mount Herzl could lead to Ahavas Yisrael is also strange. Would visiting a cemetery in the United States do the same? If not, then why would visiting one in Israel be any different?

frumtd:
The Satmar Rav was one of many gedolim who called belief in Zionism what it very obviously is: heresy and idolatry. Unlike those other gedolim, he also wrote multiple sefarim explaining the whole topic (rather brilliantly and comprehensively, at that – not that my opinion is worth anything).

Your academic question of how, in light of that, one could visit E”Y, is not really a question (because visiting and even living in E”Y is not at all innately Zionistic). But even if it were a question, that would not therefore lead to your “obvious conclusion”.

The much more “obvious conclusion” is that one who has likely never even opened a VaYoel Moshe and whose knowledge of Zionism is limited to popular propaganda, Zionist and otherwise, should probably not be be drawing any “obvious conclusion”.

Avi K:
1. Actually, appealing to international bodies against Israel could, in fact, actually be a tremendous mitzva, if, for example, doing so saves Jews from Zionist shmad or saves Jewish lives.

2. Their “fighting spirit” is far, far better used in a milchamta shel Torah in the Bais Midrash, not in the Zionist army whose specific purpose is to shmad them, to take the Torah away from them, in addition to “treating them to extreme doses of the big three cardinal sins (particularly, but not all limited to, if they were in actual combat units).

3. “HaTekufa HaGedola” contains “falsifications of fact”, as Zvi Weinman wrote both in a journal and in his book Mikatowitz Ad Hei B’Iyar (pp. 134-136). (From truetorahjews, about half-way through the article).
link removed

This barbaric practice still exists even after the dangers of these carcinogen sticks are so well known, R”L L”A??

I’m sure the chosson could give out something of benefit to his friends to achieve (an even better or) same result, and I imagine the kallah could do the same if that were necessary.

Wow. There’s so much confusion about this topic.

First, nobody proposes boycotting “E”Y”; they propose boycott the Zionist State of Israel. The two (E”Y and, liHavdil, the Zionist State of Israel) are diametrically opposed, not CH”V the same and not complementary.

So before you can even attempt to have an educated opinion on this topic, you have to be able to separate the holy land from the very unholy Zionist invasion and state the Zionists made there in E”Y.

Jewish Anti-Zionism is, as Joseph wrote, both de facto and de jure, both Pro-Torah and Pro-Judaism.

Moreover, even according to the Satmar Rav (the story to which he refers, as implied here, is a myth), a Gentile’s anti-Zionism does not at all mean that the Gentile is anti-Jewish. He could very well be more pro-Jewish than might be his pro-Zionist neighbor Gentile.

Anyone can see how true this is, if they have even a small understanding of the fraud, shmad and identity-theft of the Jewish people that is Zionism. In fact, if a Gentile understood how anti-Jewish, to the core, is Zionism, it would be ANTI-Jewish of them if they did NOT oppose Zionism. In other words, it is pro-Jewish to oppose Zionism.

According to some, Anti-Semitism is, in fact, one of the reasons the UN allowed the creation of the Zionist State.

Anti-Zionism is not NK, even though NK is anti-Zionist. NK’s methods, etc. may not be correct, but they are not at all the definition of anti-Zionism. They are simply a vocal minority that does what they feel needs to be done to draw attention to the fact that Zionism is anti-Jewish.

Anti-Zionism, meaning a part of being pro-Jewish, is simply recognizing at least some of the myriad evils that the Zionists have done and continue to do R”L L”A against our own Jewish people, and to recognize that, as Rav Saadiah Gaon wrote, Hashem made us a nation at Har Sinai based on the Torah, not a common land, etc.

E”Y serves as a holy land where individuals (not en masse) can grow spiritually, even in galus, though the Zionists have made even that very challenging in many ways, including attempting to shmad Klal Yisrael with their mandatory draft (of both men and women..like NK, as in North Korea) into their redefinition of Judaism/Zionist indoctrination engine known as the IDF.

When we merit it soon, BE”H, then E”Y will, of course, be the place where we will merit the building of the third Bais haMikdash after beas goel tzedek BB”A.