HaKatan

More Zionist nonsense.
Regarding your quote:
“The Chazon Ish encouraged people from overseas to settle in Eretz Yisrael as it is a positive commandment, and he felt that Yiddishkeit was more prevalent and easier to practice there than in the diaspora.”

So, if you would actually be a better Jew, including less of a Zionist idolater, for example, if you were to move there, then that quote would make sense. But if moving to E”Y would increase your worship of the Zionist idol (or otherwise negatively impact your Judaism), then the Chazon Ish and Rav Chaim would obviously never dream of telling you to move there.

Incidentally, the greatest halakhic decisor of the “Modern Orthodox” of today, Rabbi Herschel Schachter, also stated as above, in a lecture he gave a number of years ago in honor of the Zionists’ idolatrous “Independence Day”.

Your “PERSONAL COMMENT” also seems odd.

First, it was the Satmar Rav who was the first (publicly and in a published sefer) who “advocated for dismantling the State of Israel “peacefully”.”
He wrote that the Zionists could go to the gentiles and tell them to take over without hurting any Jews CH”V, and the gentiles would figure out a way.

You asserted, with zero basis in fact and reality:
“Even if we ignore the fact that there is NO WAY to dismantle the state without killing MILLIONS OF JEWS, dismantling the State of Israel would certainly cause MILLIONS OF JEWS to leave Eretz Yisrael permanently.”

This is, of course, false. When the Soviet Union fell overnight, it did not result in any deaths of millions, and most still stayed put exactly where they were (except the ones who wanted to leave to Western countries, which is perfectly possible now under the Zionists). There is no reason to expect differently here.

SQUARE_ROOT:
That’s pretty ironic coming from you, with all the Zionist threads you started with the Zionist nonsense you copy/pasted from all over. You could have started one thread, and posted all the Zionist nonsense there, rather than polluting the board with endless Zionist threads from this irrelevant random copy/paste and that random propaganda copy/paste.

SQUARE_ROOT
You falsely claimed “The Three Oaths are never mentioned in ANY classic Halachah sefer,
because they are NOT HALACHIC.”

As the Satmar Rav points out, numerous poskim bring the oaths as halachic. As mentioned, the alleged piece from the Or Sameach that states that the “fear” of violating the oaths no longer being a concern (regarding living peacefully and non-politically in the holy land), means that he certainly considered the oaths halachic.

In the Rambam’s Iggeres Teiman, he specifically warned the Jews against violating those oaths. If they weren’t “halacha” then he would not have done so.
Ramban never rejected them. The Satmar Rav discusses the Ramban as well. Yes, there is a mitzva to live there according to the Ramban but not to violate the oaths.

The oath in force for 1,000 years do not refer to these oaths.
All your other Zionist apologetics are either similarly irrelevant or simply false.

Even if the oaths were reciprocal (which they are not, but even if that were true) regarding the nations not overdoing their “oppression” of us, that would mean only that we would be allowed to rebel as a result. But it would not allow violating the other oaths including political sovereignty and ascending as a wall. Besides, as the Satmar Rav writes, there are many times throughout history where the gentiles oppressed the Jews but they did not rebel against the nations due to the oaths. The Rambam himself in his iggeres teiman is an example of this.

The oaths are brought down as halacha by poskim (the Satmar Rav lists numerous poskim, going all the way back) and, in fact, according to the Maharal, they are yehareig viAl yaavor, that even if the gentiles want to force us to violate the oaths, we would not be allowed to do that even at risk of life R”L L”A.

zvei dinim:
Exactly zero “serious gedolim” ever “strongly supported the creation of the State of Israel”, for any reason. Some, in Marienbad, for example, did unfortunately accept as a foregone conclusion the impending founding of that “State”. But of course nobody would ever support the establishment of a “State” that is a violation of the Oaths and (otherwise) a total rebellion against G-d, among numerous other problems.

Always_Ask_Questions:
I find it strange to be asked to quote from a gadol’s Torah when that is outside the scope of the thread. Why in the world would you even ask for that? People came to this thread to discuss the topic at hand, not for a general Torah shiur.

Next, the Or Sameach and Netziv did not have a “more nuanced view” of early Zionists. From where did you get that?

The alleged piece by the Or Sameach, for example, which the Zionists love to abuse, was limited to settling the land with permission of the gentiles and in a totally non-political and peaceful way. That’s it. It also affirmed the halachic reality of the Oaths. On the other hand, the Zionist invasion of the holy land over a century ago and the Zionists’ wars and terror against the British and Arabs, which is what the Zionists did in reality, were very much not what the Or Sameach permitted. That was all obviously grossly forbidden, including a terrible violation of those Oaths, not that the Zionists cared in the slightest.

In general, it is a feature of Zionist propagandists to misquote, distort and lie, in the hope that readers will not know any better than to assume that they are being told real Torah truth rather than, liHavdil, Zionist lies and propaganda.

SQUARE_ROOT is simply copying/pasting and not reading (or ignoring) the responses to his earlier copy/pastes.
The Zionist victory in their war (of aggression) in 1967 was factually non-miraculous.
That was the view of the Satmar Rav, who never stated that it was a miracle from the sitra achara, as anyone has learned his sefarim could tell you, unlike the pathetic Zionist memes that they’ve spread all over.

ard:
He has a website, and has many published articles there, in some of which he talks about his background. He attended YU and “made aliyah”, for starters.

AAQ:
Rav Elchonon was one of the many gedolim (as in a real gadol biYisrael) who held this way, as can be seen in his Kovetz Maamarim. Anyone can search for his biographical information, like how he returned to Europe during the war despite the extreme danger to his life this presented (and he was ultimately murdered by Lithuanian collaborators, along with his talmidim).

He and the other gedolim who held this way were obviously not “all about” anti-Zionism. They taught and published Torah, of course. The context here, however, is their clarity on the threat of Zionism to Jews and to Torah.

Evalimoshavlo:
On that note, I would like to cry out to the Ribbono Shel Olam.
“Eichah neHepcha liZona kiryah neemanah?” (under the Zionists, of course).
After 2,000 years of galus, your children have been battered by these wicked Zionists for over a century, who have now intentionally destroyed/shmaded at least three generations of Jews, numbering in the millions, not to mention the physical destruction these wicked heretics caused during the Holocaust
This is something that was always unfathomable, that “Jews” would do this to Jews and for such a long time, too.
Tell that to our Bubbas and Zaydes a 100 years ago. They wouldn’t have believed it!
In fact, the Chazon Ish himself didn’t think the Zionist “State” would last more than 50 years at most, but the Brisker Rav replied that the Zionists will spiritually feed off of the support they provide to the Jews learning Torah there. The Zionists are doing their best to stop that, which means that sooner rather than later there will be no more Zionist idol in any form.
I want to beg the Ribbono Shel Olam on this Zionist invented “Yom Tov” that you bring the true geulah so that your children are no longer fooled by the idolatry and heresy of Zionism.

More Zionism from SQUARE_ROOT:
“In a fascinating letter to Rabbi Menachem Porush, written half a year after Israel’s dramatic victory in the Six-Day War [in year 1967 CE], Rabbi Sherer
agreed “that what transpired were great miracles.”

PERSONAL COMMENT:
This short quote proves that Rabbi Moshe Sherer disagreed with those who said that Israel’s dramatic victory in the Six-Day War resulted from the sitra achra (satanic forces).””

Obviously, Agudah lay leaders’ opinions are not relevant when they conflict with the Torah sages’ opinion, as is the case with the footnotes. Regardless, as to the above quotes, if he said that then he was basing himself on the Zionist lies and propaganda of the day, as the Zionist victory in their war of 1967, as even the Zionist historians admit, was never in doubt and also quite un-miraculous. In the footnotes at the end, you claim that this Agudah lay leader held the opposite of what all the gedolim held, despite your trumpeting how close to gedolim he was throughout his life. Obviously, either you’re mistaken about what he held (regardless of what any book claims he held), or he missed what the gedolim held. Rav Elchonon wrote openly in Kovetz Maamarim, and it’s also brought in the Brisker Rav book (and the Brisker Rav actually published in an Israeli newspaper, on which the Gerrer Rebbe and many others signed) that Zionism is idolatry and that “Religious Zionism” is idolatry with the addition of religion. The newspaper Kol Korei quote was that “Religious Zionist” education is a “sea of heresy mixed in with a drop of Torah”.

At least one other “personal comment” is also irrelevant, because no gadol ever stated that the sitra achara was the cause of the Zionists’ victory in their war of 1967. Rather, the Satmar Rav stated that the Zionist victory was decidedly un-miraculous. The sitra achara part of it is only that the Zionists were able to do such damage to Jews and Judaism AS A RESULT OF and IN THE AFTERMATH of that victory.

Finally, the comments about not doing as do the NK are also irrelevant. The Zionist love to frame their idolatry and lies as a binary of either being pro-Zionist or the alternative of NK. The truth, of course, is that there is the very large middle ground between those two approaches, with the Torah’s choice being with neither of those (though the NK are much, much, much closer to the truth than are the Zionists).

Eileh elohecha, Zionists.

chaim_baruch:
The improvement that can and should be made is that all Jews should recognize the truth that gedolim have been stating for over a century which is that Zionism is heresy and idolatry, including “Religious Zionism”.

When the Zionist “State” was founded, the Brisker Rav (who lived there) because physically ill. The Chazon Ish tried to console him and make him feel better by invoking the Chazal of “gezeirah raah avida liHibatla”. The Brisker Rav responded that this is true only if people recognize that bad decree as bad. But if they think it is good, then that dictum from Chazal does not apply.

That is the main purpose in speaking truthfully about the shmad Zionist idol, not for “practical” reasons.

yankel berel:
Those are the facts. The Zionist propaganda and lies generally reigns almost supreme, and, regarding the Zionist 6-day war, the Zionist propaganda and lies about that was certainly the only widely-known version of “facts” until later declassifications, etc.

DaMoshe:
You haven’t read the history, obviously. Even a cursory reading of Perfidy would lead to the obvious conclusion that the Zionists caused the Holocaust, not just contributed to it, which is ghastly in and of itself.

If not for the wicked Zionists and their lies, including Kastner, they would not have been gassed en masse.

yankel berel:
Even if Rav Aharon of Belz thought the same thing, even if that’s true, that is again only because of Zionist propaganda and lies. The facts are, however, that this (and the rest of the) Zionist propaganda is untrue. The wicked Zionists caused the Holocaust and also contributed to it including by lobbying governments against allowing Jews into their countries, causing those Jews to fall to the Nazi genocidal murderers. That’s why the survivors then needed a place to go – because the Zionists had lobbied countries against allowing in Jews.

The Satmar Rav labeled the Zionists as, among other things, the arsonist who then comes running with a fire hose.
No matter how many rabbanim you claim were fooled by Zionist propaganda of a century ago, the fact remains that they were believing Zionist propaganda lies, and therefore any statement based on those lies is obviously irrelevant.

SQUARE_ROOT:
Why do you pollute these boards with Zionist mistakes/propaganda and nonsense?

Regarding the mistakes/propaganda:
First of all, historical fact is that the Zionist victory in their war in 1967 (as in the other times) were not “miraculous” but conventional military victories.
Next, you cannot quote where the Satmar Rav allegedly claimed that the Zionists’ victory in their war in 1967 was “miracles from the Satan”. The reason you cannot quote that is that the Satmar Rav never said/wrote that. If you learn his sefarim on the topic, you will see that the Satmar Rav wrote that the Zionist victory then was, as mentioned above, a conventional military victory.

Regarding the nonsense:
First, Rav Yaakov told the Satmar Rav after learning from the latter’s sefarim that – since the latter had written that it would be worth all the time and effort to publish his sefer if even only one Jew is saved from the false belief in the Zionists – he, the Satmar Rav, had indeed convinced Rav Yaakov.

Second, you wrote:
“Reb Yaakov [Kamenetsky] felt that but for the creation of the State in 1948 [CE] a million Jews would have become assimilated as a result of the despair that followed the Holocaust and attributed the renascence [rebirth] of Soviet Jewry to the miraculous Israeli military victory in 1967.”

1. The Zionists caused and contributed to the Holocaust, as is obvious to anyone who has read the history, even if he most were unaware of that all those decades ago. Therefore, there would not have been any despair after the Holocaust because there would not have been a Holocaust to cause that despair.

2. The Zionist victory was not miraculous, as mentioned above.

3. Both the Brisker Rav and Satmar Rav stated definitely that Moshiach would have come if not for the Zionists in 1948. So, that would have been infinitely better inspiration for the Soviet Jews of the time.

4. The Zionist “State” has shmaded at least three generations of Jews, including many of those Jews from the FSU. The Zionist pseudo-State has over 7 million Jews. Around half of those identify as secular. That means that there are at least 3 million Jews there now who are victims of Zionist shmad. Around a third consider themselves “Traditional”, which means the number shmaded rises to easily 5 million Jews. Clearly (besides for it being obvious from the Torah), Hashem did not and does not want that Zionist idol “State” no matter how much “inspiration” it supposedly provided.

Kuvult:
“Unlike some others who still live in a bygone era and cannot deal with reality, he once told me “the state of Israel is a good thing, where would Jews have gone were there no State of Israel”.”

It is a chillul Hashem and bizayon of Rav Yaakov to conjure up statements he made over half a century ago before all the Zionist propaganda around their war in 1967 (and earlier ones) were known to be lies once the historical record was opened.

Most were unaware then that it was the wicked Zionists who both caused and contributed to the Holocaust. Were it not for the Zionists, there would not have been a Holocaust. Were it not for the Zionists, there would have been many more places to which Jews could have gone, because the Zionists had lobbied governments against accepting Jews into their countries because, as the Zionists stated then, during the Holocaust, “Rak biDam tihyeh lanu haAretz”. Therefore, there never would have been the concern of “where would Jews have gone”, if not for the wicked Zionists.

These facts are admitted by even the Zionists by now, who still maintain that Zionism is above all else, including Jewish lives, but this was not nearly as apparent back then.

Zionist delusion gets stranger by the day – though it is consistently heretical and idolatrous, of course, as that is Zionism.

The Zionist paradise is the least safest place on Planet Earth that is inhabited by Jews. It is under “existential threat”, as we read in the news whenever there is any noise about Iran. A standard feature of all homes built there is a “safe room”. Oh, and the very purpose of that “State” is to shmad Jews, and they forcibly draft not only males but females too (to shmad them and their future children and to get young people to start their lives off in impurity).

Under President Trump’s leadership, the USA is getting less woke, not more. It also dropped

Look up the rankings of Canada, Israel, the UK and the USA and the rankings of other countries near those, according to the Global Peace Index (GPI) 2024 and other safety indices. You might find something like:
– Canada is one of the safest countries, ranking 1.449 on the GPI scale. Countries with similar safety levels include Malaysia (1.427) and Portugal (1.372).
– United Kingdom has a GPI score of 1.703, placing it near France (2.088) and Germany (1.542).
– United States ranks 2.622, making it less safe than Canada and the UK. Countries with similar scores include Brazil (2.589) and Mexico (2.778).
– Israel has a GPI score of 3.115, ranking lower in safety compared to many Western nations. It is near Russia (3.249) and Ukraine (3.280).

But there is another more important point: if you believe that it’s only a matter of time until everyone will need to move to the Zionist paradise (before Mashiach, of course, as Zionism will be history by then), then you might be a heretic and an idolater. G-d has decreed that we will live in countries around the world until He decides to send Mashiach. We say this in our Mussaf prayers, and we just read Shir HaShirim on Pesach where G-d informs us of the famous oaths which the “Religious Zionists” have failed miserably in their pathetic attempts to disprove their validity and/or applicability.

If you believe instead that everyone will have to move to the Zionist State, then you are obviously denying that G-d runs His world including the galus in which He placed His children and instead attributing power to this idol “State”.

So, in other words, the Zionists have no answers, as always, because the Zionist idol is simply indefensible.

But one Zionist here quotes Rabbi SF Mendlowitz who held that some Zionists were “tinokosh sheNishbu”. Plenty of Zionists were factually not that. For example, the first Zionist Dear Leader gave a (blasphemous and Zionist, of course) “chumash shiur” to his fellow heretics. He quoted from Tehillim in their pathetic excuse for a parliament.

Regardless, the greatest Torah sages who lived in E”Y including the Brisker Rav, the Chazon Ish, and many others both in E”Y and outside it, all condemned the Zionists as the wicked heretics and destroyers of G-d’s Torah and people which the Zionists obviously were and unfortunately remain so.

The Brisker Rav noted that the “State” the Zionists have achieved is the “greatest triumph of the satan since the sin of the golden calf” – and that one was a very, very big triumph as it reverted the world to the post-Eitz HaDaas status, as it is today. He also noted that the Zionists cannot possibly improve the lot of the Jews, even if they wanted to do so (which of course is not their goal) because the Torah is our lifeblood. Anything that does not fit with the Torah cannot possibly help Jews.

Chaim87:
Stories of Rav Aharon dealing with him as needed are not relevant to the facts of who he was and the damage he caused (still ongoing) to American Jewry. In this very thread, people still bring up his “Kol Dodi Dofek” piece as if its halacha liMoshe miSinai when in fact it’s actually baseless and emotional at best. Regardless, it’s clear that Rabbi Soloveichik had tremendous influence, and the gedolim acted accordingly.

But if you want to tell over stories, you could tell over the one about giyus banos, when Rav Aharon tried to get Rabbi Dr. Soloveichik to condemn the wicked Zionists for trying to shmad all the girls and therefore destroy Klal Yisrael. Rav Aharon said imagine that in this room were not you, but your grandfather Rav Chaim Brisker and not me but my father-in-law Rav Isser Zalman, etc. What would your grandfather say. Rabbi Dr. Soloveichik would have none of that and wished him a good day and left.

DaMoshe:
Chovevei was a non-Zionist movement; it was concerned merely with living in the land, and doing so apolitically. Even that notion had plenty of rabbinic objectors including Rabbi SR Hirsch.

Your take is factually inaccurate regarding the views of the gedolim and the Zionist idol “State”. For example, the Brisker Rav stated explicitly that even if the Chofetz Chaim were to be its Prime Minister, it would still be forbidden to have that “State”. He also noted that the Zionist “State” was the greatest achievement of the satan since the golden calf. The Chazon Ish held the “State” was a gezeirah raah that would ultimately be nullified. He estimated it would last for a matter of decades.

The whole “MO” meme about Satmar being a daas yachid is also ridiculous in its implication. Satmar is a daas yachid in certain minor matters like (forbidding) visiting the kosel, Israelis voting in their elections and the like. The core heresy and idolatry of Zionism and the disaster that was and is its “State” was and is obvious and acknowledged by all gedolim.

Actually, the Torah tells us to not join with evildoers even to do good. That certainly applies to the wicked Zionists who persist and compound their evil (in shmading Jews and destroying the Torah) very much in today’s times, too, not just a century ago.

lakewhut:
It’s not “even if”; Rabbi Dr. Soloveichik openly admitted that, and it is simple reality. As well, the reason their parents aren’t frum is Zionist shmad, and that shmad is ongoing, too. That seems to get lost in the whole excitement about the “teshuva” movement there.

AAQ:
Did you see any suggestion like that? Why go off-topic with nonsense? The point is that when the Zionists invaded they shattered the peace enjoyed by Jews in the Middle East (and caused the Holocaust) and lit on fire the entire region due to their Big Lie that they represent Jews when, in reality, it is only G-d, the Torah and its sages that are representative of Jews.

yankel berel:
The point is that, as the Brisker Rav told the Chazon Ish, it is true that gezeirah raah avida liHiBatla, but that applies only when it is recognized as such. That recognition is lacking, even after many decades and unspeakable and ongoing destruction due to Zionism.

I find it amusing (but sad) that the Zionists are so enamored by their idol that they cannot possibly consider how any political situation could work other than their Zionist idol in power there. As mentioned, the simplest political solution would be to implement what the original Balfour Declaration had intended: Christian political control of the area, with local Jewish (and liHavdil Arab//Muslim) religious affairs for themselves.

provaxx and other Zionists:
Given that Zionism is the greatest rebellion against G-d by far, and is therefore far more anti-Jewish than anything out there, anyone who criticizes the Zionists are actually pro-G-d and pro-Judaism. It is the Zionists that are sonei Yisrael.

SQUARE_ROOT:
As a Zionist idolater who also probably doesn’t even know that the Satmar Rav wrote sefarim, let alone having ever opened any of those, it would be silly for you to attempt to assess the greatness of the Satmar Rav. The truth is that since idolatry is irrational, it is Zionists and other idolaters who are the ones self-afflicted with mental illness, R”L L”A.

You claimed that Satmar advocates “not only isolation from non-Jews, but also total isolation from all Jews who are not Satmar.”
This is, of course, false. Satmar runs a self-sufficient community, which is indeed admirable, and they very much care to avoid joining with reshaim as per the Torah and as expounded by Chazal. Many other communities also “do their own thing” though not with the success that Satmar is blessed by G-d in doing so. The “Modern Orthodox” community and Chabad are two examples. However, Satmar helps everyone, not just Satmar. If anyone G-d forbid has needed to be in a major hospital and has seen the Satmar Bikkur Cholim room, where you have Satmar women – with ten (or more) of their own children – who go and cook and prepare – and then deliver to those hospitals – food for those in need there, no matter the background of the recipients, then they know that your hateful statement is false.

The Satmar Rav wrote that if the Zionists were to go to the UN then they would figure out a way (which obviously would not include risk to Jews R”L).

Seems like YWN censored my prior comment with multiple responses to the above. Oh well.