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@Happy new year:
Zionism is idolatry. Idolatry is not rational. That’s the basic answer.
Zionism and its “State” are also infinitely worse than anything else. But there’s no criticism of that idol either.
Their criticism of NK is basically due to NK’s opposition to the Zionist idol, not any other reason.@RightJew:
This has nothing to do with Qatar or anything else. It’s really disgusting to falsely accuse fellow Jews out of nowhere, when it is actually Zionism that is diametrically opposed to Judaism.All the gedolim have stated for over a century that Zionism is an extreme danger to the Jewish people and is idolatry and heresy, as is plain to anyone who is willing to open their eyes.
GadolHadofi:
No, it is you that are filthy and accusing falsely.I did see the headline you mentioned and immediately assumed that there would be lots of idolatry in the comments, so I went straight to the comments and responded. Even after looking quickly at the article now, I still don’t see details of who did what. There are no photographs/video that I saw of anyone in NK “uniform” saying anything to Rav MHH.
I still am not familiar with the story you claimed, only that there was some disturbance but that B”H the dinner proceeded regardless.
If anyone will “burn” it is those defending idolatry. As mentioned, I have never defended anyone insulting Rav MHH or the like and in response to a previous question of yours, I explicitly noted that such a thing is obviously wrong. Stop accusing falsely.
@simcha613:
But your point is wrong, as mentioned before, because there is no such prayer.
We do not pray to simply return to EY. We pray for the redemption, and part of that will, of course, be returning to EY.johnnysmith:
Why not instead address the points made?@SQUARE_ROOT has still not apologized for cursing Jews on this forum so his nonsense will be ignored here.
@RightJew (Wrong, in fact.)
None other than Rabbi Dr. Soloveichik, head of Mizrachi, openly stated that everyone knows that Zionist and its “State” caused a skyrocketing jump in the hatred of Arabs against Jews (because the Zionists lied that they the Zionists were acting in the name of Jews).No, it was not a paradise for a Jew to have lived under Muslim rule, but Jews did far, far better under Muslim rule than they did under Christian rule. And, more to the point, the decades leading up to the 20th century were far, far more peaceful for Jews in the holy land than were the decades after the Zionists invaded the holy land. This is simple fact, and only Zionist idolaters refuse to acknowledge that.
So, no, it is not Satmar that is “radical”, as Satmar is in fact mainstream Torah, as opposed to Zionist idolatry which is extremely radical – redefining Judaism into Zionism, etc. NK isn’t relevant to typical conversations, but they obviously would hold similarly on the core issues.
@GadolHadofi:
You’re making things up as usual. If any group behaved disrespectfully to any gadol haDor then that is obviously wrong. I am not familiar with the story you claim but, as stated, there is no need to condemn the obvious (as I just hopefully clarified for you above).Regarding your nonsensical assertion that “The opinion of the Satmar Rav, zt”l, regarding the State after 1948 was not accepted by the majority of Klal Yisrael or their leaders.”:
Of course it was accepted. There were only minor disagreements on voting or the like, but nobody argued that shmad wasn’t shmad, and nobody argued that the Zionists hadn’t grossly violated the shevuos which were obviously still in effect as they were ever since the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem.
@yankel berel:
Chazal say gadol haMachtio min haHorgo, and the Zionists are orders of magnitude worse in that regard.But just because the Zionists B”H haven’t done everything the Nazis did, that doesn’t mean that nothing the Zionists have done could qualify under that rubric. In fact, these recent examples very much qualify.
@flamingOTD:
It is not the Jews that are the oppressors in any conflict; that conflict is between the Zionists and the Arabs, not Jews and Arabs.
@yankel-berel:
It was the wicked Zionists, of course, who caused those countries to abandon their plans to take in those Jews from Europe, as the wicked Zionists – falsely claiming then, as now, that they were speaking on behalf of world-wide Jewry – lobbied governments against allowing in Jews to their countries because it was disloyal to their ambitions for then-Palestine even though the British had limited immigration to Palestine due to all the terror and war the Zionists were fomenting there in then-Palestine.But that’s besides the point, as he mentioned.
There is no question that the Arab hatred of Jews – believing the Zionist Big Lie that Zionism represents Judaism – has increased dramatically since the Zionists invaded the holy land over a century ago. Rabbi Dr. Soloveichik himself admitted as much in writing, not that you need his word for it given the plain facts on the ground, including the Chevron Massacre (and Holocaust) which was caused by that same “curse” – as Rav Gifter put it – of Zionism.
No, that obviously doesn’t excuse the savage murderers who committed those atrocities against Jews. But, by way of illustration, only a fool would start up with a rabid dog; only the evil Zionists would intentionally inflame the entire world and especially the Middle East just to get their shmad “State” so that the Zionists could become “normal” because they were not accepted as gentiles by the gentiles and, on top of that, lobby governments against allowing in Jews to their countries from Europe during WW II.
On another level, Islamic “nationalism” in then-Palestine also would not have happened if not for Zionism, as they used to call themselves “Syrians”. So, even if their goal is indeed world domination, which is possible, they would have had to fight world christendom to do that, not endless wars with Zionists that have cost rivers of Jewish blood for no good reason at all.
The right option is to follow the Torah, and with Hashem’s help, see the best results.
Before the Holocaust occurred, the Chofetz Chaim noted that as long as we followed the Torah and its sages, we did fine. Only once new “Jewish leaders” arose and people began following them instead of the Torah and its sages, did problems begin, and he then stated who knows how far this will go, or something to that effect.
We just read VaYishlach, in which Yaakov Avinu taught us how to navigate galus. Whenever Rabbeinu HaKadosh would go to Rome, he would always learn that parsha first.
That’s the only way: following the Torah.
paktype:
Please consult ASAP with a competent LOR.@GadolHadofi:
They aren’t my buddies. I don’t need to call out what they do, as their misguided approach is an issue between them and G-d. Unlike the Zionists, they mean well, and are performing a service for Klal Yisrael to let the world know that Jews are not responsible for anything the Zionists do or don’t do. By that standard, though, we’re all still waiting for you and all Zionist idolaters to call out all the Zionists for all the evil they do, like impoverishing our brethren there for not agreeing to be shmaded in their army, etc. which of course never happens. Please don’t be silly, despite your screen name being what it is.
@simcha613:
You don’t think so? Have you asked them? Have you read any of Rabbi Kook’s works? Any of his son’s works? Any of his students and their students?
No, I’m not at all setting up a straw man; have you ever read any of the chazals that discuss the geulah? Anything from the Satmar Rav who writes extensively on this with no dissenting opinions this? Like, for example, how the geulah will be by Hashem, not by basar vaDam, because anything by basar vaDam doesn’t have permanence, and this geulah will be permanent.As to your quotes, they are dependent on the ggedulah, of course. For example, “viKabtzeinu yachad…” is part of the bracha that begins “Teka biShofar gadol liCheiruseinu…” which clearly discusses the geulah, including, specifically that shofar of Mashiach. How could you possibly rip out of context “viKabtzeinu yachad…” to be not dependent on that “shofar”? In other words, we are asking to be redeemed and then to be gathered into the holy land as part of that redemption. That isn’t very complicated.
Regarding Bentching and thanking Hashem for the land, even though He has expelled us from that land, we do still need to thank Him for “having given to our forefathers a desirable land, good and expansive…”, and “for having redeemed us from Egypt…”
Please consult with a competent (non-Zionist) LOR.
simcha613:
That story isn’t relevant here.
No, we don’t pray for Hashem to simply return us to our homeland; we pray for the redemption.
No, we are not being at all hypocritical in our prayers; it is actually the Zionists who are corrupting the same, of course.
For example, in viLiYerushalyim that we pray thrice daily, we ask G-d to return there with mercy and to dwell there as he stated and to build it speedily in our days a forever building and to establish the throne of David there speedily. None of that has any relevance to the Zionist abomination.GadolHadofi:
So, you’re also accusing falsely, all throughout your post. Wow.“re the medina : that ALTHOUGH THE MEDINA WAS A POSITIVE DEVELOPMENT FOR THE MANY PLEITIM AFTER THE WAR , who were left without a roof ”
No way the Brisker Rav ever stated that. Something (as in most of it) must have been lost in translation.RightJew:
Let’s rewrite that to reflect reality.
“Pro-Zionism” rantings of “Religious Zionists” serve to sanitize the great evils and Jew-hatred promoted by their idol.
“Pro-Zionism” Jew haters exploit their idolatry of Zionism to legitimize Zionist shmad and persecution of our fellow Jews under their jackboot.yankel berel:
It’s actually the opposite. The “ostritch” mode would be more like what you did: ignore every gadol who clearly held not like that, and ignore the Torah that clearly holds not like that, and latch unto a statement he made when he was clearly emotional.Would you really like it spelled out, and anger all the Zionist idolaters? Go ahead and point out where and how the Torah could possibly hold that a godless atheist who could have been violating all three of the gimmel chamuros shortly before he was killed could possibly be considered harugei lud. Please don’t be ridiculous.
Eva LiMoshav Lo:
In addition to UJM’s point, which means that you should take your wonderment to your LOR to get what is therefore an obvious answer given that, you are also conflating two very different things: geulah and the subsequent return to E”Y with Mashiach versus the Zionist invasion of E”Y and the cataclysmic mess that resulted (which they knew would happen but didn’t care).Hashem told us that Eliyahu haNavi will come to announce the geulah. That hasn’t happened yet, as of this writing.
What has happened instead is, as Rav Elchonon Wasserman called it, “galus under the yevsektzia”, which is “the worst galus of all”.Chacham adif miNavi.
Yaakov Yosef A:
Of places with significant (even minority) Jewish populations, not desert islands and not places with mere remnants of the same thanks to Zionist agitation and/or other reasons: as stated and as is obvious to all, the “West Bank” (if you want to exclude its periphery, then that’s fine, but doesn’t matter either way) is by far the most dangerous for Jews.Yankel Berel:
That one line that he printed was an emotional cry, not a serious point of halacha. Obviously, according to everybody – RCS included -, they are not like harugei lud. Please follow the Torah and its values and don’t be ridiculous.ZSK:
As mentioned, you continue to lie and accuse falsely. But if by “Am Yisrael”, you mean the pseudo-nation invented by the Zionists then, yes, most of us here are not part of that pseudo-nation.@SQUARE_ROOT:
You should be banned from posting (especially nonsense but, regardless) anything until you apologize for calling Jews Hamas agents and the like.@SQUARE_ROOT
You should be banned from posting (even if it weren’t nonsense) until you apologize to those you falsely accused on this site.@SQUARE_ROOT:
As mentioned in the other post you spammed with these vile curses against your fellow Jews (including members of these boards), you should beg forgiveness from those Jews that you cursed. You should be banned from posting anything else to these boards.@yankel berel
Even those who did not consider him a rasha, kofer or the like, still very much did consider his works to be totally against the Torah.
The Chazon Ish banned the sale of his books.
The Gerrer Rebbe stated that Rabbi Kook was “omer al tamei tahor”, and that was after Rabbi Kook gave him a letter (later retracted) that claimed he was retracting his problematic views.
And on…@SQUARE_ROOT
You should be banned from posting anything until you apologize to those you falsely accused of being Hamas or Iranian agents or whatever exact stupidity it was.SQUARE_ROOT:
As previously mentioned, you should be banned from commenting further until you apologize to those you falsely accused of being Hamas agents and the like.@ZSK:
Zionist soldiers are indeed “their” soldiers. They are soldiers of the Zionist army, which is a foreign entity. That’s not at all complicated.
And, yes, you lied and also accused falsely.“1. Calling any part of E”Y “disputed territories” is pure kfira. Or have you not read Shemos 6:8 “…. I will give it to you for a possession, I Hashem.””
Actually, it is “Religious Zionism” that is pure kefira. Since you are quoting from Shemos, I assume, then, you have not read the rest of the Torah where Hashem states that he will expel them from the land, which is what He did almost 2,000 years ago and will return us all there when Mashiach comes.
The political entity that is the “State” of Israel is anyways totally unrelated to any of the above, of course.2. The “West Bank” is far more dangerous, as has been sadly proven far too often ever since the Zionists conquered that territory.
3. Actually, we have a very clear idea of exactly what Rav Elchonon would say. It’s published in his sefer, of course. In fact, “Religious Zionism” has become even more fanatical and idolatrous since that time. For example, Rabbi Kook explicitly did not permit for violence in creating a “State”, while the reality was that it took massive violence and human sacrifice of Jews to establish that “State”, while the junior Rabbi Kook decided that everything in that “State” is holy including its weaponry and all the rest. SMH.
4. Go ask his students and all competent LORs. Besides, you anyways cannot compare those living in “the heartland”, surrounded by hordes of bloodthirsty savages, to communities that are barely over the Green Line.
And visiting Chevron and the like are very, very, very different than living there, of course.
Your attempt to claim “Religious Zionist” idolatry as Torah values will simply not work.
@yankel-berel
Rav Chaim Shmulevitz was expressing his emotions. He obviously was not making a halachic pronouncement that they are equivalent. This is so silly. Ask any LOR and none will say like that story from Rav Chaim Shmulevitz.
@ZSK
Nobody spit on their soldiers; don’t lie.chaim_baruch:
Regardless of the rest of your comment, I thought that this was worth highlighting:
“They are wonderful people who live in the heartland of Eretz Yisrael al pi Torat Yisrael.”In “Religious Zionist” parlance, this typically means that they are “settlers”, meaning that they live in the disputed territories. By far, that is the most dangerous place on the planet where Jews live. Rav Shach forbade living there as a “hisgarus gasa baUmos haOlam”. So, no, living there “in the heartland of E”Y” is not “al pi Torat Yisrael”, and not only according to Rav Shach.
As Rav Elchonon wrote, “Religious Zionism” is religion and idolatry beShituf.
It is “al pi” that, not the Torah.
Yaakov Yosef A:
A letter posted to this site is no longer just for “internal RZ purposes”. His response was, of course, to it being posted here, not to their “internal purposes”.CasualReader:
He’s very far from the only one, but, regardless, in the days of the shoftim, there were only 300 people who didn’t bow to the baal idol. This idol (Zionism) is also unfortunately very wide-spread.chaim_baruch:
The Zionist propaganda that you believe is, of course, totally wrong.
When you choose to serve, or send others to serve, in that army, that has exactly one and only one “benefit”: following the commands of your Zionist (and its “State”) overlords . That’s it, unless you also happen to save some Jewish lives while in that army.While it’s very nice of you to think that you and others are doing so for other Jews, the fact is that this mistaken feeling is simply a result of the pathetic but overpowering propaganda (i.e., lies) that the Zionists have foisted on you and the world.
Any other country in which Jews live is far safer than the Zionist paradise (which is the greatest cause of antisemitism in history). On 10/7, as everyone knows, the savages breached the Zionists’ billion shekel wall in over 100 places. If anyone had any illusions that the Zionist paradise was somehow a safe haven, then that should have disabused them of that silly notion.
Besides, on a reality-level (the “spiritual” level, if you will), we have a mesorah that American is the last station for Torah in galus. As well, the Zionists have ramped up their attacks on the Torah and its followers like never before in their calamitous and never-peaceful history.
So, if you and others choose to worship at the altar of Zionist idolatry and heresy and think that, as the Zionists claim in their “Jerusalem Program” that the future of the Jewish people is dependent on a secure “State” of “Israel”, that still has no bearing on the reality which is, of course, very different.
My Hashem please heal their pain and also teach them the unadulterated truth of His Torah.
As Rav Elchonon wrote, “Religious Zionism” is religion mixed with idolatry.As well, one wonders how this letter fits with the three quintessential qualities of a Jew: Baishanim, rachamanim and gomlei chasadim.
“The minimal and clear principles necessary to ensure the enlistment of the Haredi public—principles that include drafting fighters according to the army’s needs, oversight and enforcement solely by the army, and **preventing any direct or indirect state funding until there is actual enlistment** according to the army’s requirements—must serve as conditions for your support for any legislation.”
In other words, unless they agree to shmad themselves in the Zionist army (no matter the framework), the letter writers are requesting that the “State” let not their children attend school/childcare, let not their mothers be able to work, so let them all starve.
It doesn’t fit, of course.
yankel berel:
You seem confused about the Torah’s perspective on Zionism. All, not just the overwhelming majority, gedolei Yisrael hold that Zionism is treif.
It is plainly obvious, and doesn’t take a gadol to hold that, but that is nonetheless the reality.RightJew:
Your criticism of me is again wrong. What does NK’s letters have to do with anything, and what do Zionists vs. “Palestinians” have anything to do with Jews?The statement you quoted from them happens to be true: “It is clear from the Torah that not only Jerusalem does not belong to the Zionists; none of Palestine is theirs.” The Torah indeed does not give anything to them. It is simple halachic reality that Jews are forbidden to seek political independence and further forbidden from rebelling against the nations and also further forbidden from moving en masse to the Holy Land, all of which the Zionists flagrantly violated.
As to their “alliance” and all the other nonsense, they are obviously not heretical and certainly not more so than the atheistic Zionists. Regardless, the point they are desperately trying to make is that Jews are not responsible for anything the Zionists do. So, perhaps either thank them for their service in that regard or just ignore them.
Yaakov Yosef A:
The “old secular Zionists” are not “old” but very much exist today, and are very much Erev Rav.
As well, “post-Zionist” opposition to Judaism is far better for Jews than Zionist opposition to Judaism because Zionist opposition to Judaism stems from its need to redefine and replace Judaism with Zionism, while post-Zionist opposition to Judaism doesn’t have that ideological idolatry powering that opposition.SQUARE_ROOT:
You have falsely accused Jews of being messengers of savages, and have now actually cursed Jews simply because they don’t believe in your idol.You should beg forgiveness from all those Jews you have cursed, and you should also be banned from posting on these boards anything other than those apologies.
ZSK:
Not forgiven. I have not cursed anyone.RightJew:
Wrong. I was not at all dishonest.
The Zionists are totally corrupting the meaning of that first Rashi, and of course I believe in that and the rest of the Torah. Of course.No, the fictional land “Palestine” does not actually belong to the fictional “Palestinians”. Not that it matters.
Normal Orthodox Jews would not participate in such activities, but it is very understandable why those Jews do so – as mentioned, because it shows the world that the wicked Zionists do not represent the Jews and therefore gentiles who have a problem with the Zionists should therefore not take that out on random Jews as has unfortunately happened every time the Zionists engage in one of their never-ending wars.
SQUARE_ROOT:
You have falsely accused Jews of being messengers of savages, and have now actually cursed Jews simply because they don’t believe in your idol.You should beg forgiveness from all those Jews you have cursed, and you should also be banned from posting on these boards anything other than those apologies.
SQUARE_ROOT:
As mentioned in the other post you spammed with these vile curses against your fellow Jews (including members of these boards), you should beg forgiveness from those Jews that you cursed. You should be banned from posting anything else to these boards.AAQ:
The Chofetz Chaim agreed with his talmid muvhak Rav Elchonon, of course.YB:
Not very thoughtful, actually. The point remains that he is telling the gentiles not to blame Jews for anything the Zionists do or don’t do. That’s their point.WrongJew:
See the response in the new thread you made for that.WrongJew:
This issue has everything to do “Zionism” or “anti-Zionism”. NK is demonstrating (perhaps in an appropriate manner, but that’s besides the point) to the world that Judaism is not the same Zionism and, in fact, just the opposite: Zionism is diametrically opposed to Judaism.The point of that is to tell the gentiles that Jews should not be held accountable for anything the Zionists do.
Let’s fix that line you wrote at the end:
The time is long overdue that the religious Jewish community declare Zionists to be non-Jewish “rodfim” and enemies of the Jews…SQUARE_ROOT:
No, it is the actual Ani Maamin of waiting for Mashiach, of course. See the Satmar Rav on that (and nobody argues on that).P.S. No, again. What Rav Elchonon said a century ago about both secular and “Religious” Zionism remains at least as relevant today as back then. You just made that up. Logically, however, today there is an actual “State”, which is the object of their idolatrous worship, so his concerns remain even more more relevant.
And those rabbis are all absolutely right about Zionism, with nobody of note disagreeing.
TPANEACH:
First of all, it’s not about “NK”; this is the Torah’s view. But there is nothing there about which they need to be embarrassed. The oaths still remain in effect, of course, and nobody is permitted to violate them as the Zionists flagrantly did and do, and the “Religious” ones are proud of those violations.AAQ:
What other opinions? That of idolater Zionists? There are no other Torah opinions.@yankel-berel:
“the secretary general of the arab league in 1947 stated that if the state of israel is proclaimed , the massacres of djengis khan will pale in comparison to what is going to happen in EY [chvsh again] …”Yet the Zionists, claiming they had a 50/50 chance of winning the war, chose to go against the UN which wanted to start a new mandate and instead chose to flip the coin and go to war, regardless of the cost in Jewish blood. Because in the Zionist faith, Zionism is above all else.
@yankel-berel
“everyone says and everyone knows that Jews overall are not responsible for anything the Z do or don’t do. ”Maybe you could tell that to all the reshaim who have hurt Jews throughout the world every time the Zionists engaged in one of their forever wars, including the past two years since the savages made over a hundred breaches in their billion dollar wall and murdered and hurt hundreds of Jews there.
SQUARE_ROOT:
“This is important, because when Rabbi Ahron Cohen speaks to “various countries” about the evils of “The Zionists”, that is both Lashon HaRa, and also CHILLUL HASHEM, because non-Jews are listening.”As usual, Zionists have it totally backwards. Heretics, including the Zionists about whom he is speaking, are obviously not biChlal amisecha, so the halachos of L”H do not apply to them. In addition, it is a great Kiddush Hashem to inform the gentiles that Jews are represented by only the Torah and its sages and not by Nationalist heretics.
Can you please stop polluting these boards with “Religious Zionist” nonsense?
SQUARE_ROOT
He published that in his Kovetz Maamarim, obviously before he was murdered in the Holocaust, not that it matters precisely when he published it.
And that was universally accepted because it is the simple truth.A few decades later, in the holy land, the Brisker Rav published – and the Gerrer Rebbe and all the others signed on – that “Religious Zionist” education is a “sea of heresy mixed in with a drop of Torah”. This is arguably even more severe than Rav Elchonon’s statement.
According to the Torah, “Religious Zionism” is idolatry and heresy. Period.
YB:
His view that Jews are not responsible for anything the Zionists do or don’t do is indeed a very important one.WrongJew:
Please consult ASAP with a competent LOR, as you hold views that are in direct conflict to the core tenets of Judaism.Duvidf:
Please immediately consult a competent LOR.As Rav Elchonon Wasserman and others wrote, “Religious Zionism” is simply religion biShituf with that same idolatry of Zionism.
And the belief in a divinely-ordained exile that can only be ended by the Messiah is in fact a core foundational principle of Judaism.Dofi (what a name):
You don’t mention the reason they joined that conference: to make the point clear that Jews are not to be held responsible for anything the Zionists do or don’t do.@Litvish95:
The gemara is also readable by English speakers on the Internet, of course.
The answer is very simple: that wasn’t the point of the discussion, and there was no need to mention it.As mentioned, and to quote your post: you and other Zionist idolaters have still failed to answer why you have never expressed pain over the spiritual death of millions of (fellow?) Yidden over the past hundred years due to the Zionists.
To further quote your post: “if you are Jewish, let me ask you a question:” how are you so quick to throw out a Jew’s chezkas kashrus or, worse, accuse a Jew of being a non-Jew?
Do teshuva, including asking for mechila bein adam laChaveiro, so that Y”K might help you.