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Always_Ask_Questions:
You aren’t being specific: Jews who specifically were looking to “integrate” into secular culture were rejected from doing so. Jews continuing to live as Jews as did their fathers and grandfathers and all the way back, however, were doing just fine.You also seem to have missing the part that his Plan A was conversion. He himself has zero Jewish descendants as do others who became Zionists, of course. Since the entire goal of Zionism was assimilation, there would obviously be no objection to intermarriage. Even today, Zionists move out to various countries and marry the women there. And, not to forget, the wicked Zionists also run programs to mingle their youth with the Arabs, and Yad Lachim and others exist specifically for the purpose of rescuing Jewish women from the hell that is an Arab “husband” and village.
No, Zionism does not at all guarantee Jewish grandchildren.
chiefshmerel:
Yes, the most mild of what the gedolim stated in their criticism of Rabbi Kook was the Gerrer Rebbe after Rabbi Kook supposedly agreed (on which he “clarified” that he meant only the “intent” and only if the others would retract) to retract his writings. The Gerrer Rebbe wrote that Rabbi Kook ruled “al tamei tahor”. That was the mildest of what the gedolim stated about him.“You don’t source…”
You can read Rav Miller on the Holocaust in A Divine Madness. You can buy the sefarim of the Chazon Ish, Rav Elchonon and all the rest. Or, you can ask your LOR for the sources and if he has other sources that claim otherwise and bring those.Avi K:
“…British…greatly restricted Jewish immigration in 1936 in a vain attempt to appease the Mufti ym”s…”
No, that would be because of the Zionist terror and war that the Zionists waged against both the Arabs and the British, so the British didn’t want it to get any worse. Had the wicked Zionists not invaded and not agitated, then the British would have welcomed and encouraged Jewish immigration at a time when Jews badly needed (especially because the same wicked Zionists lobbied governments against allowing in Jews to their countries).Eileh elohecha
simcha613:
The proof that your fantasy is incorrect is that all the gedolim were vehemently against Zionism, and many were also vehemently against even the non-Zionist Chovevei Tzion that preceded it. Rav Hirsch stated that what Rabbi Kalischer (who founded but later retracted his support for CT) considered a “great mitzvah”, he Rav Hirsch considered “no small aveirah”. And that without the Zionist kefirah and replacement theology of changing Judaism into secular godless idolatrous land-based nationalism which was the case of the Zionist “opportunity” to which you referred.No, “we” were not all given that opportunity. That is given only with the coming of Moashiach. Until then, while some may go, it is assur for Jews to en masse go up to Eretz Yisrael, as per the gimmel shevuos which are, of course, fully in effect according to all. So, that’s obviously not what Rav Meir Simcha meant with Berlin replacing Jerusalem, of course.
Finally, look at what the Zionists have done over the past century. According to their official stats, 40% of all Jews in Israel today are completely secular, and 35% are “traditional/Conservative”. That’s 75% of the JEWISH population there. That’s after the intense teshuva movement that many have been valiantly attempting despite the ongoing immense Zionist shmad. No, it was not a very good idea to join the Zionists in being cannon fodder for building their paradise.
Always_Ask_Questions:
“And so was Hertzl. True, his primary motivation was fear of anti-semitism in Europe (pretty prophetic, unfortunately)…”
This is a classic Zionist myth, of course.No, his primary motivation was wanting to be “normal”, which is why his first plan was mass baptism R”L L”A. Once that didn’t work out, he chose Zionism, especially because of how en vogue it was among the Christian Zionists (who long pre-dated him and his fellow heretics) and how he would be able to propagandize Jews for it.
If his mythological supposed concern was in any way “prophetic”, then it was very much of the “self-fulfilling” type. In fact, he and other Zionists deliberately said nasty things about Jews, like “A Jew’s life is a dog’s life”, and that a Jew cannot be a citizen of his host country, and on and on. He, himself, wrote that anti-Semites will become the Zionists’ friends, because that would get Jews to emigrate to their planned future State.
And on and on.
@yankel berel
Looks like the sand is on your side of this.
Claiming that this is “hashkafa” rather than “halacha” is absurd, as mentioned.It is halachically forbidden to believe in idolatry and heresy. Doing so could also cause someone to be considered a heretic/idolater, which is an additional and very serious concern. So, yes, it is halachic, of course.
@ZSK and @yankel-berel:
The truth is not merely rhetoric; it is the truth, regardless of my inability to provide precise page numbers for you. But you can, for example, open up a Kovetz Maamarim and easily find what I quoted from Rav Elchonon. And you can easily open up Maaseh Ish and other sefarim and see what the Chazon Ish held. You can also refer to the archives of whatever Israeli newspaper it was in which the Brisker Rav published an ad, on which the Gerrer Rebbe and others signed, that “Religious Zionist” education is a “sea of heresy mixed in with a drop of Torah”.These are actual quotes, and the truth, of course. Since you have no answer to any of that, you sadly resort to dismissing it as “rhetoric” rather than doing the intellectually honest alternative of looking it up for yourself and/or taking the facts to a non-Zionist Rabbi who actually knows the sugya and asking them.
coffee addict:
Contact your filter company about that not working.@yankel berel:
“you see that the zionists ARE THERE , must be therefore , that Hashem wants them there, otherwise they would not be there ….”
So, by that logic, the Nazi concentration camps must have also been what G-d WANTED (not just allowed to happen, but WANTED); otherwise, those would not have been there either.
For that matter, the destruction of the Temples and the murder of the millions (or more) in Beithar, and on and on, must have also been what G-d WANTED.
Obviously not. He certainly allowed it to happen, but very much did not WANT it to happen.
@yankel-berel
“Rav Elchonon wrote that RZ is avoda zara beshituf but he meant this in a haskafic sense , not in a halachik sense.”
That’s interesting. So, if you say that Catholicism is also A”Z only in a hashkafic sense but not in an halachic sense, then what could that possibly even mean?He says that “Religious Zionism” is exactly that: A”Z and Religion biShituf. How that halachically affects an individual “Religious Zionist” is possibly more nuanced, depending on the posek. But the ideology is halachically exactly as he stated.
@chiefshmerel:
“HaKatan has referred to survivors in quotes. Implying that they call themselves and are referred to as survivors, but are not. Just another Jewish antisemite who believes the Holocaust was our fault”No, that was not at all the implication. The quotes were to refer to those survivors from that post, not to imply otherwise.
I won’t bother quoting the rest…
The culpability for the Holocaust is obviously on those who committed that mass-murder, namely the Nazis and their accomplices. That’s obvious.
Regarding how it could have happened, the answer obviously involves – among other factors – sichar viOnesh, as that is how Hashem conducts Klal Yisrael. If you choose to deny that, then perhaps you might wish to use these days to repent from that heresy.
Believing that the Zionists provoked Hitler in the name of world Jewry is simply historical fact, not “Jewish self-hatred”. Speaking of Jewish self-hatred, that would, of course, be Zionism.
AAQ:
If not for the wicked Zionists, those “survivors” would not have gone through the Holocaust in the first place. And the sephardim would have remained living peacefully AS JEWS in their home countries rather than being shmaded (at least three generations now) by the Zionists. And on and on.Asking people to be mekatreig on Klal Yisrael in general, especially right before R”H, is perhaps not advisable.
But, since you asked, the serious teshuva and achdus that would seem to be lacking is – thanks to immense Zionist propaganda with which the satan seems to go to town – the total negation of the Zionist idol including the clear recognition that it never did belong, does not belong, and wanting Hashem to (peacefully) remove it ASAP, as we pray each day in viLaMalshinim and also on R”H/Y”K.
R”H is coming up very soon. May we all merit to properly crown Hashem as the ruler of everything and without also believing in any idolatry (especially and including Zionism).
Chabad’s late Rebbe seems to have intentionally not named a successor Rebbe. Had he done so, this would not happen, as they would have a Rebbe to ask.
yankel berel:
You misunderstood. As I wrote, it was an example and illustration under the specific conditions noted. Besides, you cannot compare the attempts to remake a country vs a peaceful handover (however exactly that would work out).Again, the point is that Hashem does not want the Zionists there so, therefore, there obviously must be a better alternative. Decades ago, the Satmar Rav noted that if the Zionists wanted, that they could approach the nations to have them figure it out. Only a Zionist idolater would definitively state that it is impossible to have anything other than Zionist rule.
AAQ:
It’s not that the gedolim argued; they did not argue. No gedolim agreed with the heresy and idolatry of “Religious Zionism”.SQUARE_ROOT:
CH”V, I never intended to make any accusation against any Jew. My points are simply to point out the ideologies that are absolutely against the Torah – like “Religious Zionism”, which is idolatry according to all the gedolim who discussed it. As well, in this very thread, I mentioned that if anyone was educated in the poisonous heresy of “Religious Zionism”, then they could be tinokos sheNishbu. But the ideology is absolutely treif.That’s interesting.
Rav Elchonon Wasserman and many others all write explicitly that Nationalism/Zionism is idolatry and that Torah and, liHavdil, Nationalism is Torah and idolatry biShituf. The Brisker Rav published, and the Gerrer Rebbe and others signed on, that “Dati Leumi” education is a “sea of heresy mixed in with a drop of Torah”.
So, perhaps a better question would be why anyone would possibly follow these grotesque distortions of Torah (Zionism of any flavor) rather than simply following liHavdil only the Torah.
To be fair, though, the reason that ZSK isn’t likely concerned about L”H against Conservative and Reform communities is that ZSK likely agrees that those movements are heretical and that its followers are unfortunately not biChlal amisecha.
Avi K:
So, you mean to ask, why their forum system does not work properly on your device.@joe blow:
Zionist idolaters are a distinct minority, yet they feel confident enough to ignore the vast majority of Torah scholars due to Zionist idolatry.
The Zionist idolaters just say their position is absolutely right despite having no gadol backing them!There. Fixed that for you.
AAQ:
“The fact is that those who followed Zionists to EY mostly survived and are Jewish. A large portion of them is shomer shabbat or “traditional”. Even those who are not observant (and most likely whose grandparents were not observant with or without Zs) are still Jewish and have a chance.”
First of all, Palestine was under grave threat from the Nazi general Rommel, and Hashem supernaturally interceded to save all the Jews there from the evil Nazis. Second, you have ignored everything I wrote about this in my post. Those who went to Palestine “mostly survived and are Jewish”, you say? Again, the Zionists have shmaded generations of Jews, all of before, during and after WW II. “Shomer Shabbos” or “traditional” are nice, in theory, but anyone who denies even a single letter of the Torah is a heretic, and the Zionists deny much more than one letter – more like the whole Torah, with some limited exceptions. As the Brisker Rav put it, and many others including the Gerrer Rebbe signed on, the “Religious Zionist” education is a “sea of heresy mixed in with a drop of Torah”.
Next:
“You provided the words. We provided analysis that shows that the Esav idea, while reasonable at a time, does not match recent history. If you do not have an answer in your mind, maybe you can ask or write a letter to someone who share your views and share their answer with us?”No, you did not provide any such analysis. You just pointed out random ideas that do not at all refute the Esav idea. The Esav idea, of course, remains perfectly reasonable today. Just hypothetically, and for example, if the United States of America were to take over and annex that as an overseas territory, do you really think that President Trump or a similar leader would allow some savage to ruin that? No, he obviously would not.
@Always_Ask_Questions:
Rav Shach wrote that Rabbi Dr. Soloveichik wrote “mamash divrei kefirah ad kidei hishtomemus liMareh ayin” and things that were “assur liOmram viKol sheKein sheAssur liKosvam liDoros”, which he Rav Shach was repeating to show just how far “external wisdom” takes away one’s “daas Torah”.Rav Aharon Kotler stated that Rabbi Dr. Soloveichik was responsible for “all the tumah in America”.
Rabbi Dr. Soloveichik was the head of none other than Mizrachi, which is idolatry and heresy (and foolishness), of course.So, people should seek Torah guidance from only people who maintained full fidelity to the Torah.
And if your own thought processes are in common with his, then you might want to consider how your thought processes might perhaps also be influenced by non-Torah influences and change them to be influenced by only Torah sources.
@Square_Root:
The gedolim did not agree, of course. Rav Chaim Brisker said that the founder of Zionism SR”Y must have known what he was doing, because no tinok sheNishba could come up with a seemingly “kosher” sin like Zionism other than one who does know. His son, the Brisker Rav, specifically applied to them the pasuk of “Halo misanecha Hashem esna…” He obviously would not have done so if they were tinokos sheNishbu. When the insolent Zionist David Green came to meet with, liHavdil, the Chazon Ish, the latter took off his glasses so as not to see the wicked Zionist because, of course, it is forbidden to look at the face of a rasha. If the Zionists were all simply tinokos sheNishbu, then the holy Chazon Ish shouldn’t have needed to remove his glasses.Obviously, there could be some Zionists who really do not know, though, especially the ones who went through the standard Zionist school system and never met a real Jew (chareidi). But that’s besides the point.
Avi K:
Please don’t insult the intelligence of the commenters here. Are you really trying to deny this, that Rav Elchonon wrote as he did in Kovetz Maamarim that “Religious Zionism” is idolatry and heresy, simply because of the date of the emergence of that political party and its name?Please open a Kovetz Maamarim and see it for yourself. It is there, in B&W, as mentioned.
“Religious Zionism” is, of course, pshuto hiMashmao, idolatry and heresy as all the gedolim stated. It’s that simple.
So, obviously, there is no list of gedolim who disagree with them. There is a long list who either stated in writing and/or signed off on the same just like Rav Elchonon did. But not CH”V supporting “Religious Zionism” which, again, is simply idolatry and heresy.AAQ:
This was not “private positions of politicians”. Agudah predicated their “acceptance” of that “State” on the guarantee that this be the established and unchanging rule of their “State”.As well, it is even more reasonable now than back then. It is not at all “frozen in time”. Their first “prime minister” David Green stated explicitly that the reason he wanted everyone in the army is to turn Jew into Zionist (and for the women to be there for immorality), and that was why Agudah insisted that the chareidim be exempt. Given the appalling drop in morality worldwide in the decades since, and the worsening of heretical and idolatrous Zionist ideology since then, this position remains not only reasonable but even more urgent today than it was then. Regardless, it is certainly no less urgent now than then.
@Avi K:
Your idolatry seems to be confusing you. It is the Torah that they are following, not just chareidi gedolim.
@SQUARE_ROOT:
Zionism is heresy. Therefore, anyone who proudly claims to be a Zionist while also knowing this obvious reality, as mentioned by the greatest Torah sages for over a century, is believing in heresy. And anyone who denies even one letter of the Torah is a heretic, and therefore not biChlal amisecha, never mind believing that the Torah should CH”V be turned into a Zionist mush. I wouldn’t have phrased it as did UJM, but that’s probably what he meant.@Mods:
I think this thread should be closed due it being silly to begin with and there seems to be leitzanus by some.Always_Ask_Questions:
“> made an unlimited deal with AgudahNow, you are worshipping a prime minister of 80 years ago. A prime minister is not able to obligate future governments with private agreements.
You are continue disappointing us by staking out principled positions and then revealing that you really did not think through any serious arguments to defined them. You made me more of a Zionist than I was before I started talking to you.”
He wasn’t simply “a prime minister 80 years ago”. He founded that idol “State”. But, regardless, yes, he certainly could obligate future governments.
The Torah and its gedolim that they cite are recognized and known.
A better question is how do we know that the pro-idol posters are Jewish. After all, chazal tell us that one of the three traits by which a Jew is known is mercy/good to the merciful, something the Zionists very much lack and with which their idolater followers seem to have no problem.There seems to be a lack of understanding, and I apologize if anyone thinks that I was insulting their intelligence.
As mentioned before, the point remains: “…as the Satmar Rav wrote decades ago, that non-Zionist rule by a responsible Esav ruler would be far better for Jews there and around the world than would be any Zionist regime. …The details aren’t relevant here…”
You can look up the Satmar Rav’s holy words and see what he wrote. You can then take that to your LOR and ask him for details and see if he can provide to you those details if you’re really that curious. Please do not claim anything I write to be attributed to anyone’s Rebbi or Rebbe.
@Always_Ask_Questions
You summary above about Zionism being a good thing is simply horrific. As the Brisker Rav wrote (not in 1900, but a half-century later), the “State” they have managed to achieve is the greatest triumph of the satan since the cheit haEigel. Obviously, then, the “State” was not in any way a net-positive for Torah/kiruv. In fact, it has shmaded alaphim uRevavos of Jews over at least three generations and more, not to mention causing and contributing to the Holocaust which also turned many Jews off (in addition to the physical loss of millions of Jews).Since you mentioned the alternative, both the Brisker Rav and the Satmar Rav stated that if not for the “State”, Mashiach would have come. Not merely could have come, but would have come. That was the alternative that Hashem wanted, but unfortunately the wicked Zionists robbed us of that and haven’t stopped doing so until this day.
@Always_Ask_Questions
The Zionist ideology to which you refer by implication is the same – or worse – than 100 years ago; you can read the WZO and AZM’s official platform and documents in case you had any doubts about that.Regarding your assertion that they have a responsibility to be shmaded in the Zionist army because they are citizens, this is not true, of course. The Zionists invaded that land over a century ago against the wishes of the Jews there. Furthermore, the first Zionist “Prime Minister”, David Green, made an unlimited deal with Agudah that Torah learners would be exempt from that army. So, they have zero obligations to join that army despite that they are unfortunately being ruled by the Zionists.
And even if they weren’t learning Torah, Zionism and its army are shmad, even worse than typical “religious coercion” (because the wicked Zionists heretically and idolatrously redefine Judaism, as opposed to telling you to adopt a goyish religion).
@SQUARE_ROOT
Please stop spamming these boards. It is disingenuous to take an emotional supposed statement from Rabbi SF Mendlowitz made at the height of the whole false excitement after the founding of that idol “State”, especially when all that was generally known then was Zionist propaganda, and he didn’t have the benefit of hindsight that anyone today could have.@Always_Ask_Questions:
The Torah is very much against Zionism and its army. Zionism is, of course, diametrically opposed to Judaism. That means that Jews obviously do not belong in that army. That also means that the brachos given to Jews about their army defeating their enemies are totally irrelevant to that Zionist army as that army is a total “slap in the face” to G-d. Hashem, of course, desires the well-being and safety of His children, regardless, but that has zero to do with that Zionist army (and “State”, for that matter).The gedolim addressed why there is a need for more Torah learners today. As well, large portions of European Jewry had assimilated back then; see Rav Miller on the topic, for example. As Rav Elchonon wrote, the two idols served by Jews then were nationalism and socialism, so Hashem sent an unholy mix of both of those – the Nazis – as a “stick”… So, had there been more Torah, that would have prevented at least some, if not all, of that. So, they could have used more Torah learners back then, too.
There are infinite stories about how living as a Torah Jew is the most ideal way to live and how it positively affects others. But that doesn’t “make the news”.
(Regarding living as a “halachic Jew”, that is a Maskilic formulation; the Torah requires living with both the proper hashkafa as well as with all the relevant halachos.)
YB:
Those details aren’t needed because the point addressing the OP was sufficiently made without those details. The only ones who would have those details would be those in political power, not ordinary commenters on this forum.SQUARE_ROOT:
As just posted in a different thread in which you posted Chaim’s fairy tales, no it is obviously not true.AAQ:
I am not claiming to speak for the Satmar Rav and very few people alive today could probably get even close to truly understanding his greatness. My point very much remains, and the lack of detail in my humble post is in no way reflective of the Satmar Rav’s holy Torah including on this subject. You can easily read the Satmar Rav’s actual Torah on it if you were to open his sefarim on the topic.The point remains: “…as the Satmar Rav wrote decades ago, that non-Zionist rule by a responsible Esav ruler would be far better for Jews there and around the world than would be any Zionist regime. …The details aren’t relevant here, nor is anyone obligated to provide them to the idolaters here.”
Avi K:
But just as they don’t want to be indoctrinated in a Catholic Church (which at least believes in some form of G-d), they all the more so don’t want to be shmaded in the Zionist army.yankel berel:
Any objective observer would conclude, as the Satmar Rav wrote decades ago, that non-Zionist rule by a responsible Esav ruler would be far better for Jews there and around the world than would be any Zionist regime. This blows the mind of the Zionist idolaters, but that’s the reality. The details aren’t relevant here, nor is anyone obligated to provide them to the idolaters here.Rocky:
Only to a Zionist would following the Torah be called radical.As to your assumption:
Many who join the IDF are fooled by promises or other things instead of listening to all the gedolim and common sense. The satan does that to everyone. That’s why Hashem gave us a Y”K each year.The znus there is an added (tremendous, yehareig viAl yaavor) problem on top of the shmad. The reason that so many go off is, of course, that this is the express purpose of the Zionist army: shmad. The whole point of Zionism is to redefine Jew and Judaism into Zionist and Zionism. Their army is the brainwashing/indoctrination center for that shmad. It’s not a big chiddush that this has damaged the Judaism of all its inductees, and destroyed it for the vast majority.
As Rav Steinman told a boy who came to him wanting to go through a “religious” framework, “no matter what framework you use to go to that army, you will come out a total goy”.
yankel berel:
Projecting again? Zionists commonly do that when the facts show them to be totally wrong.Avi K:
Please stick to facts and the Torah, not idolatrous insanity.yb:
You’re welcome to believe whatever you want but, yes, they did say that, as posted above.yb:
You cannot on your own invent that this was hashkafa and only “mussar”, as opposed to being actual halacha. It was also intended as mussar, though.
Elsewhere in his letters, for example, he wrote that one should not escape Europe to America using “Religious Zionist” institutions like YU but rather only via Torah Vodaath or the like. That was certainly mussar, too, but it was just as certainly also intended halachically.You also cannot on your own invent that it only applied to the chinuch at that time but not at other times. That’s silly and also baseless. The idolatry and heresy is at least the same, if not worse.
@yankel berel:
No, it’s not very relevant what to expect from Arab rule in the holy land after over a century of needless and anti-Jewish Zionist agitation there, because nobody suggested that Arabs should rule there. As it happens, though, there is a different example, Morocco, where even now – despite the cataclysmic mess the Zionists intentionally made – the Jewish community still exists, with active support of their Muslim king who has restored synagogues and promoted Jewish heritage.simcha613:
Ask one, then. Meaning, ask a real posek who is not also the rabbi of a local Young Israel or similar YU-type shul. You are also assuming that Zionism and/or the opposition to it has lessened. Both of those are false, of course. If anything, the opposition has increased, as recent news stories are only beginning to indicate.“Minhag Yisrael” also “paskined” against married women covering their hair for some decades (and is still the case among a number of the “Modern Orthodox” maskilim, as it happens). That’s not “Minhag Yisrael”, it’s called a pirtza and an anti-Torah laxity.
Yet you still stick to your assumptions for no known reason. As quoted before, “…just for example, Rav Elchonon states b&w in kovetz maamarim that “Dati leumi” is literal idolatry. The Brisker Rav published a KK signed by the Gerrer Rebbe and many others that “Dati Leumi” education is a “sea of heresy mixed in with a drop of Torah”.”
Why don’t you take that to a real non-Zionist posek and ask what is the practical “therefore” of all that, rather than just assuming that your perception of “minhag Yisrael” trumps explicit statements by gedolei olam?
Finally, you seem to have missed my most recent post:
“It is possible, according to some opinions, that one could believe in heresy yet not be considered an actual heretic. But the heresy in which they believe is still 100% heresy.Regardless, that same Chazon Ish stated that “Dati Leumi” wine is yayin nesech.”
Avi K:
It’s sad how you “Religious Zionists” are so bamboozled by the Zionist idol. As in:
“FYI, no non-Jewish ruler has done anything except persecute Jews. Mark Twain, in fact, commented that when he visited in 1867 the Land was barren.”First of all, the two (ruler attitude to Jews vs. land having been barren) have nothing to do with each other.
More importantly, however, there were long stretches of time throughout galus, like the Golden Age of Jews in Spain (and even the period before the Zionists invaded in the holy land), when the gentile rulers acted benevolently towards the Jews (whether because they needed the Jews or for other reasons).
Regarding the idolatrous nonsense at the end:
First of all, the eigel haZahav was also a reality. And it was (unlike the Zionist nightmare) actually miraculous, as that golden calf idol literally danced with them. Until Moshe Rabbeinu came back and pulverized it and fed its dust to its worshipers as is done to a Sotah.The geulah is certainly imminent, but it is the Zionist idol that is holding it back – not bringing it closer – of course. Claiming otherwise, like the “Religious Zionist” idolaters do, is simply silly. The geulah is accomplished by Torah and mitzvos. Zionism and its “State” are diametrically opposed to both. So, obviously, Zionism and its “State” push away the geulah, not bring it closer, as noted. And it is the Zionists that are the Erev Rav and miZera Amaleik, as it happens.
Only an idolater could take the greatest and longest-lasting in history mass-rebellion against G-d by far – Zionism – and claim that it is actually bringing the redemption, given the Torah’s clear view and plain logic that it is just the opposite. SMH.
@yankel berel and @simcha613:
It is possible, according to some opinions, that one could believe in heresy yet not be considered an actual heretic. But the heresy in which they believe is still 100% heresy.Regardless, that same Chazon Ish stated that “Dati Leumi” wine is yayin nesech.
@simcha613
I think that @somejewiknow put it well enough, but, besides for that being the obvious Torah opinion on the matter, I’m curious on what halachic basis do you claim to differ with all those gedolim, even if you didn’t know that the gedolim said that?Again, just for example, Rav Elchonon states b&w in kovetz maamarim that “Dati leumi” is literal idolatry. The Brisker Rav published a KK signed by the Gerrer Rebbe and many others that “Dati Leumi” education is a “sea of heresy mixed in with a drop of Torah”.
So, on what basis do you think you know better, even if you didn’t know any of that? What is it that you think you know that therefore they all would have missed? In other words, what halachic justification do you claim for not labeling their idolatry and heresy as exactly that?
The answer is that, presumably, you don’t know the sugya, and since you see that “dati leumi” wear a yarmulka and believe in learning and doing mitzvos, you therefore presume that they are probably perfectly fine Jews despite that whole sugya.
somejewiknow:
I appreciate your kind words. Thank you. I just wish my words would actually help people rather than some other idolatrous Zionist rant overshadowing them.SQUARE_ROOT:
By that “logic”, since you are not a chassid of the Chofetz Chaim, then you shouldn’t bother with his sefarim either.So, please do not follow that “logic” and instead rejoin Klal Yisrael as a believing Jew rather than as a Zionist idolater.yankel berel:
“the question of the continued EXISTENCE of the state is intertwined with the pikuach nefesh of millions”Not really. That is literally textbook Zionism, and is heretical because it takes power away from G-d and transfers that to the “State”. Again, that “State” is a gross violation of not only the oaths but kol haTorah kulah, as the Brisker Rav noted. Obviously, as the Chazon Ish noted, it is simply a matter of time until Hashem ends that nightmare idol and its “State”.
Therefore, the core question of the continued existence of that “State” is in no way an actual pikuach nefesh question.
Obviously, if its dismantlement/transfer of powers were done improperly, then it could be a tremendous concern of pikuach nefesh, if that’s what you meant.
But regarding the core question of the “State” existing, there is obviously zero pikuach nefesh concern. If anyone claims otherwise then they are simply foolish and/or Zionist heretics. The Brisker Rav stated that it will not be the Zionists from whom Mashiach takes control of the holy land. So, obviously, Hashem will arrange the downfall of that Zionist idol, too, like all other idols, and He certainly will address any pikuach nefesh concerns.
simcha613:
No, not at all.Hallalu ovdei A”Z, vaHallalu ovdei A”Z.
As Rav Steinman told a boy who came to him, if you go to that army – in any framework – you will come out of that “a total goy”. He didn’t say “Religious Zionist idolater who puts on Tefillin each day”; he said “a total goy”.
This is, of course, what that army is expressly designed to do (turn Jews into hebrew goyim), and this is exactly what has, unfortunately happened, R”L L”A.
yankel berel:
The only delusion I see in this discussion is Zionism.
The Satmar Rav wrote decades ago that if the Zionists actually cared about Jewish lives then they would go to the nations to work out a way to peacefully end their nightmare idol “State”.
It is delusional to claim as you do that the only possibility is the Zionist cataclysmic disaster. In every normal country in the world (obviously unlike the Zionists paradise), people choose to live in whichever country they expect to be treated well. It is, again, delusional to claim that the Zionist idol “State” is an exception to that rule, and that you think you can just invent that there is no way that any part of “eisav” could rule it peacefully and successfully to the benefit of the Jews (and, liHavdil, others) there.More importantly, it is obviously not a sfek-sfek-sfek…sfeika if the Zionists are violating the oaths0 That’s silly. The Zionists are, of course, flagrantly violating them as they always have, according to all opinions.
Even more importantly, no, it is not only because of the oaths that Hashem will stop the Zionist disaster at some point. Exactly because of your concern, of pikuach nefesh – that is perhaps the main reason why Hashem will end the Zionist disaster. The Zionists, as you noted, have inflamed the world, not just the entire Middle East as in the past, with their frontal attack on G-d in changing Judaism to Zionism and creating a “State” against His will and also against the will of the Jews there and, on top of that, promulgating and propagandizing their Big Lie that their “State” is Jewish and that they represent Jews, both of which are offensively and absurdly false.