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sechel:
The org site “Identifying Chabad” has that and more there for you.Back to the OP, “lakewhut”:
That was a solid piece of Motzi shem ra on all of Klal Yisrael.
Especially given what is going on in the world, it is rather slanderous to write that Jews in general are not really waiting for Mashiach and that only Chabad does so.In fact, Chabad is waiting for their Rebbe to return, which is why they may express more passion about it than do Jews who are waiting for (the actual) Mashiach from among the living.
“i didnt see those words there.
so the rebbe is explaining about asking about asking תיקונים
then the rebbe brings the zohar of ישראל אורייתא וקוב”ה כולא חד”
Are you sure those are the words of the Zohar?The quote I saw was:
” קב”ה ואורייתא וישראל מתקשרין דא בדא”That’s very, very different.
No Mesorah:
You are denying and distorting reality and, as in the past, not addressing the clear and specific points mentioned.
No Mesorah:
“The only difference is that MO is much more likely to be honest with their religious standing. Which is not intrinsically a bad thing.”Not exactly. The satan tests everyone, so everyone has their challenges. And MO does claims loyalty to “halakha”. But that is where the commonality essentially ends.
1. Being MO is a “permit” to intentionally violate certain issurim while still considering yourself 100% orthodox.
2. MO’s embrace of Zionism as a core tenet of their faith is, of course, hugely problematic because Zionism, of any flavor, is literal idolatry according to Rav Elchonon Wasserman HY”D and the rest.
3. MO’s embrace of secular culture and their disregard for hashkafas haTorah is almost as large a problem as their Zionism because it results in a total distortion of what Jewish (Torah) life should be.
No Mesorah:
I had no intent to debate Zionism with you. It is not debatable.
The quotes were intended to address the matter at hand, which is the church ceremony attendance by a “Religious Zionist”.Since you asked, though, Zionism was and is intended to be an idolatrous land-based and godless replacement for (and destruction of) Judaism.
That sounds like a big problem to me. It is, of course. But feel free to continue mocking. I’ll just ignore it BL”N.
Dear No Mesorah:
You seem to have missed that every gadol forbade Zionism and that many wrote that it is literal idolatry and heresy.I gave you one source off-hand from Rav Elchonon HY”D; there are others, too (in Satmar, Brisk and elsewhere). Moreover, anyone who reads the WZO’s official “Jerusalem Program” can see both the A”Z and Kefirah there. It’s not mystical and not mysterious.
You are falsely claiming that I dislike Zionism and therefore a Rabbi who is Zionist is not to be trusted.
Once more, and, with this, I think I’ll let you have the last word if you continue to mock and ignore what I write:
A (Rabbi who is a) Zionist is, by definition, literally worshiping an idol and likely believes in heresy as well. That’s what the gedolim wrote, and we can see how logically sound they were in stating that.Whether or not he is a tinok sheNishba in doing so is not my concern. My likes and dislikes are irrelevant.
So, therefore, because he is a Zionist, his “psak” is automatically suspect. That’s the point here with his church ceremony attendance.
No Mesorah wrote:
“Since we just don’t go into a church regardless of the reasons, the rabbis in question should absolutely not publish a responsa.A Royal Coronation is a rare event and only a few Jews will ever be invited to attend one. Why write a precedent that any clergy could freely dispense to their congregants?”
Except that this happened multiple times over the past century and, yes, it was indeed used as a precedent by another “Modern Orthodox” Rabbi in NY. And, as mentioned before, “Vihyisem nikiyim” and the fact that this “Chief Rabbi” very publicly and proudly pronounced that he was going to attend this church ceremony, against the written psak and mesorah of Klal Yisrael going all the way back.
So, yes, of course he should have justified it – if he could. Instead, he stated that he was doing as did his predecessors.
Where is the halachic responsum for this supposed heter that is against mesorah and written psak going all the way back?
Reb Eliezer:
Very good. Non-idolater/non-Zionist Torah leaders should certainly be respected. Nobody claimed otherwise.mdd1:
What part of Zionism is literal idolatry did you miss?
No, he doesn’t mean that it’s kiEelu. He and others wrote that it is. Period.AAQ:
1) In addition, I would argue that “viHiyisem nikiyim” would obligate him to publish that teshuva, if it did exist, despite that he noted that his predecessors had also gone to church ceremonies in that church.AAQ:
1) You have it backwards. If anyone, all the more so a “Religious Zionist”, so publicly and pompously claims it is his duty as a Rabbi to go against the mesorah of our poskim going all the way back, then they are gravely profaning Hashem’s name unless they provide a valid halachic explanation for the same.The Zionists and their weapons are not relevant, of course, as the particular weapons they do or do not have do not impact that they are enemies of Hashem, His Torah and His holy people.
2) As I wrote in my last post, the particular judges on that B”D are irrelevant. The “Chief Rabbi” specifically noted in his video that he was relying on his predecessors having done this, not on a psak from those Rabbanim.
no mesorah:
1) So you failed to comprehend my multiple clear and lengthy posts? Attending a church ceremony in a church sanctuary was universally condemned and forbidden, going all the way back.2) And you seem to be unaware that I don’t want to just copy/paste from other sites. There’s no point in arguing over chashad, maris haAyin, hischabrus, kabbalistic reasons, et al. because all the poskim said absolutely not.
The point is – ironic, given your screen name – simply mesorah:
every posek forbade doing so,m as mentioned.So, a “Religious Zionist”, in an admittedly Zionist organization – when the above is literal idolatry according to the Torah giants – has (less than) zero chezkas kashrus to overturn the mesorah of klal Yisrael of all the poskim going all the way back who forbade doing so, as mentioned above. Ergo, this church ceremony attendance and its video were a massive chillul Hashem.
AAQ:
There is no “chazaka” and this has zero to do with politics.1. The organization is “Religious Zionist” which means it has zero chezkas kashrus, to begin with. The Av Beis Din is this Chief Rabbi, as mentioned above.
2. Where is the original teshuva permitting the first Chief Rabbi to enter that church? Which gadol applied that alleged heter, if it did exist, to any future time?
3. There could be 1,000 fully frum and non-Zionist talmidei chachamim on that beis din but that would be totally irrelevant given the above. The question is not on them; they are irrelevant.
This whole church thing is obviously a mockery of G-d but, just for argument’s sake, even if there was a heter back then – which nobody has produced – in that specific time and for that specific king, who said that heter still applies? Where is the teshuva showing how/why that would be?
Always_Ask_Questions:
It is telling that you ignore all the other gedolim who also condemned Zionism in the harshest terms and imply that others were “more accommodating” as if they permitted Zionism and as if they allowed anyone to be Zionist CH”V.Your quote from Rav Elchonon is a fraction of what he wrote on the topic (including to Mizrachi, by the way, whom he also condemned in no uncertain terms).
“Weird decision to cancel a Chief Rabbi of a large country because a website of the beis din that approved Rabbi’s decision has a reference to a movement that one of the gedolei disapproved 100 years ago.”
This is a disgusting sheker and a mockery of the Torah. Agudath Israel was founded to fight Zionism. It’s not “one of the gedolim”; it’s all of them. There was a difference of opinion how to deal with the Zionist State once it was founded, but none approved of Zionism – not before and not after.
Always_Ask_Questions:
I was not questioning those Rabbanim on that Beis Din who are genuine unadulterated shomrei Torah and mitzvos.But the Beis Din’s parent organization openly states that it is Zionist. This is not merely “something with which you disagree”. As well, its Av Beis Din, the Chief Rabbi, studied in “Religious Zionist” institutions, etc.
Their Chief Rabbi claimed that, in attending that religious service in a church sanctuary on Shabbos, he was following in the footsteps of this predecessors, not that he asked the London Beth Din for permission.
So, the number of unadulterated G-d-fearing Rabbanim on that Beth Din is all irrelevant to the massive chilul Hashem of their chief rabbi attending a church ceremony in a church sanctuary on, liHavdil, Shabbos, and then producing and disseminating a video about that.
Again, given that this was universally forbidden before, where is the teshuva/responsum on this, if there really was a heter (from a century ago or more recently)?
no mesorah:
I only noted your screen name.1) No, because he is a “Religious Zionist” (idolater) and his organization admits openly that they are Zionist (idolatrous). Therefore, when he does something that nobody in history has ever done and that every posek has written is forbidden, and he has no teshuva written as to why it is permitted for him, then the obvious assumption is that he is making a mockery of G-d.
2) Links aren’t permitted, unfortunately, but you can use your favorite search engine to pull up as many articles with sources as you’d like.
mdd1:
Not what it says in my copy. Maybe you have the Mizrachi Revised Edition.no mesorah:
You need a mesorah, or else you have nothing.To be brief, two points will suffice:
1) His position gives him zero permission to violate halacha and enter a church sanctuary, all the more so during a religious ceremony.
2) It is not at all “hard to pin down exactly why we do not go into churches”. It’s rather simple, as you can see from contemporary poskim and going all the way back.AviraDeArah:
It doesn’t matter who is on their Beis Din now.It matters who, and on what basis, initially gave this alleged heter for a Chief Rabbi to attend a church ceremony in a church sanctuary when nobody in history has ever permitted that.
It also matters that the parent organization of that B”D is idolatrous, which makes the above all the more problematic.
Reb Eliezer:
That has absolutely nothing to do with their Chief Rabbi attending a church ceremony in a church sanctuary.mentsch1:
The King respects the (religion of the) Chief Rabbi, as we know. There is neither a need nor a gain by that Chief Rabbi entering a church, against the Torah.AAQ:
A shtadlan doesn’t have his own Torah. For example, a shtadlan can’t get baptized and live as a Christian in order to better help Jews in a royal court.(When Shabsai Tzvi SR”Y converted to Islam to save his life, the rabbis that he fooled finally realized that he was indeed wrong. That was despite all the kiruv he did. According to you, they should not have changed their minds about him. Who cares that he converted to Islam?)
It’s sad that this even has to be stated: Hashem runs the world, and “lev melachim viSarim biYad Hashem”. Hashem obviously does not need any pompous “Chief Rabbi” to enter a Church.
LiHavdil elef havdalos, when a kohein must attend a levaya, the funeral homes have a video hook-up to a separate room right outside the funeral home so that the kohein can participate and not become tamei laMeis. The UK Palace could have (and likely would have) easily done something similar for their Chief Rabbi to help him.
Remember Rav Chaim Brisker’s line: if the Jews don’t make kiddush (as in separate from the goyim) then the goyim will make havdala. Think of the Kiddush Hashem that could and would have made, and the aivah that it would have removed! “Chief Rabbi attends coronation in a special tent put up specifically for him to accommodate his religious laws that forbid him from entering a church”. Afterwards, at the palace, or anywhere else outside the church, he could have blessed the king just like the “other faith leaders”.
In fact, we know that their king himself was willing to break protocol to have the Chief Rabbi leave before the king so the Chief Rabbi could go home for Shabbos.
This was and is a disgrace and an abomination.
mdd1:
If that question is relevant, then one should certainly ask.
Read Kovetz Maamarim and the rest. It’s Black-and-White; “Religious Zionism” is idolatry. Period.Regardless, that question has zero to do with a church, which is absolutely forbidden to enter (certainly its sanctuary, and even more so when a religious ceremony is being conducted there).
Always_Ask_Questions:
Hilchos L”H require that if someone intentionally and publicly profanes Hashem’s name that such an abomination be condemned.Established halacha is that it is absolutely forbidden to enter a church sanctuary. You’re not even allowed to enter the sanctuary of a Conservative Synagogue – yet the UK Chief Rabbinate claims that their Chief Rabbi (and his predecessors) are perfectly fine entering a church sanctuary for a church ceremony (and proud to make videos of it and disseminate those afterwards)?
The argument that it was permitted by the “London Beth Din”, of which he is the head, and which is therefore nogeia baDavar, is not an argument.
As well, the United Synagogue (the umbrella organization of that “Beth Din”, headed by the Chief Rabbi), on their web site, states that they are “a Zionist organization”. So, there goes that “heter”.
There are world-renowned Torah greats who have guided us over the past century. Why wasn’t this asked to, and answered by, someone like Rav Moshe Feinstein, for example?
Nope.
The “London Beth Din” is under the UOS, which means it is under the Chief Rabbi.
There is zero heter to enter a Church sanctuary. His predecessor claimed he did so “mipnei aivah”. As others noted, why not permit everything else “mipnei aivah”, too?
If there were any serious halachic permit to do this, then a teshuva should have been published, especially because the Chief Rabbi studied in Religious Zionist institutions and that faith is idolatry according to Rav Elchonon Wasserman HY”D and the rest.
Ironically, assimilating with the gentiles is, of course, a generator of aivah, as we have seen throughout history, R”L L”A. So, if the goal was to prevent aivah, then the most prominent Jew in the UK attending the most prominent church in the UK was certainly not the way to accomplish that goal.
So, the working assumption by anyone who at least wants to be G-d-fearing, is that this was a tremendous chilul Hashem.
That’s all in addition to Neville’s post here that the videos and publicity is certainly a slap in the face to G-d even if there were some real heter – and there obviously was no heter.
philosopher:
No, Jews are not a race. There are Jews from all over the world and of all skin colors, looks, etc.There’s a simple answer.
First Judaism is a religion, not a race, not an ethnicity, and not a nationality. (Yes, that knocks out the Zionist Big Lie, too.)
There are lots of terrible Christians and Muslims in this world, too. But nobody calls Christianity terrible nor do they think less of Christians because of the actions of the terrible Christians.
Second, these “Jews” are Jews-in-name-only. They have nothing to do with Judaism.
The more that Jews distance themselves from heretics, including Zionists, the better it will be for Jews. Period.
I read that he was fired, but who knows?
ujm:
I wouldn’t say that it’s “usually not the case” that there is a separate female photographer for the women, but it depends on the social circle, sect, etc.Thank you, Chaylev…
Most likely, the Arab didn’t know that these are anti-Zionist. Alternatively, the savage didn’t care because he believes the Zionist Big Lie that the Zionists represent all Jews.
Israel is, as Rav Elchonon wrote in the name of the Chofetz Chaim, the worst galus, galus under the Yevsektzii. With the clarity of hindsight, we see how prophetic and on-target are those words.
When Mashiach comes, may it be today, please Hashem, and when he tells everyone to go to E”Y, then if people still don’t want to go to E”Y, then you might want to revisit your post.
takahmamash:
Actually, if you believe in Hashem and Chazal then, yes, there are halachic limitations on women learning Torah.“Harryyid13”
“We” have not forgotten that we are in galus, whom are our leaders, and all the rest; that would be the “Religious Zionists”.One of the gedolim whom we have not forgotten, Rav Elchonon Wasserman (among others) wrote clearly that since Zionism is literally Avoda Zara, that makes “Religious Zionism”, then, simply Avoda Zara with religion.
edited
Yaakov Doe:
That is not the concern. See the Org web site Identifying Chabad.Great story.
No Mesorah:
That was a fairly long non-response posing as a response to my attempt to clarify to you why you should not have called me a liar.Sovereignty over a territory is forbidden. The Zionists claim sovereignty over portions of Eretz Yisrael, and have fought multiple wars, still ongoing, to support that claim. All of this is, of course, a severe violation of the Torah’s laws.
The objective reality is not that “Judaism thrived before, during, and after Eastern Europe”, but rather that it took a big hit in the years leading up to the Holocaust. Nobody can stop you from believing in your own version of history, though.
Rav Miller, who was there pre-WW II, testified in his book about the dramatic abandonment of Torah for Zionism and other -isms.
Rav Elchonon Wasserman, who lived there, too, also wrote that the since the two idols (literally) that (some) Jews then worshiped were Nationalism and Socialism, therefore, Hashem responded with the ascendancy of the Nazi (Nationalist Socialist) party and its threats and dangers which, thanks to Zionism and other factors, turned into the Holocaust.
These (and others who said similarly) are gedolei Torah who were there on the ground. It is silly for anyone to decide close to a century later that they disagree with them, as you have indicated.
The talking points of the Zionists are that Judaism and the Jewish people need to change to become a gentile, godless and nation-state based Nationalist nation. By supporting the State of Israel and Zionism, it is you who are supporting those ideals.
Jewish blood was not “constantly spilled in unthinkable numbers and unimaginable ways.” That is Zionist propaganda. As I mentioned, there certainly have been many, many, many difficult times in the galus including many, many, many incidents of Jewish blood having been spilled CH”V. But that was not a “constant” occurrence. The Zionists want you to think it was so that you choose to worship their idol State.
Finally, the Torah is that with which we identify. Period. It has nothing to do with being “fashionable” or otherwise.
From the site I mentioned in my prior comment (if approved), from Rav Chaim Dov Keller, about the then-director of Chabad of Illinois (who has since passed away):
“This to me is extremely disturbing, because Rabbi Moscowitz, whether his hashkafos are normative Judaism or not, should, as the regional director of Chabad Lubavitch of Illinois, certainly represent normative Lubavitch thinking.
Let us look at what we are being asked to believe is ‘normative Yiddishkeit’ and ‘well within the mainstream of Torah thought’:
1. The Rebbe is not dead but still lives (so that we cannot celebrate his Yahrzeit) and is present everywhere.
2. One may pray to the Rebbe, who also knows our innermost thoughts.
3. The Rebbe is omniscient – which in simple English means he knows everything – a quality which is possessed only by HaShem Himself.
4. The Rebbe is omnipotent – meaning all powerful – kol yachol – which is also the exclusive attribute of the Creator.
5. The Rebbe is the Essence and Being of G-d enclothed in a body.
This, together with the idea of the second coming of a dead Messiah, has heretofore been recognized as standard Christian – certainly not Jewish – theology.
That there is a machlokes (dispute) within Lubavitch in these matters is well known and was clearly demonstrated by the fact that a day after the publication of the above mentioned full-page ad entitled ‘The third of Tammuz is not the Rebbe’s Yahrzeit’, there appeared another full page ad in the Times published by American Friends of Lubavitch, entitled ‘Finding Love and Unity Across the Jewish Spectrum.’ It contains not one word about him being alive, or being Moshiach, or Being and Essence of G-d. In fact, it speaks of Jewish communities the world over commemorating the third Yahrzeit of the Rebbe on the third of Tammuz. One only commemorates Yahrzeits of dead people. So there is obviously another faction.
Which leads us to two possibilities:
A. That Rabbi Moscowitz, by virtue of his position, speaks as a spokesman for the ‘official’ view of Lubavitch – and the non-Messianists are the minority.
Or
B. That the Meshichistin are the minority, but have taken over a significant part of the Movement’s official machinery – at least in Illinois.”
In case anyone is interested in lots of information on this, the Org site “Identifying Chabad”, may be of interest.
tunaisafish:
There is also a Chazal in Pirkei Avos about being dan liKav Zechus.
I can’t speak for others, but when I saw someone asking “who cares what some in Chabad believe?” I thought it appropriate to answer why it might be rather important to know.@n0mesorah:
Your screen name is instructive here.If your idea of truth is what the Zionists propagandize then, unfortunately, you can’t recognize the truth.
If your idea of Zionist history begins in 1948 then, unfortunately, you are missing many decades of Zionist history (and the gross misfortune to Jews that came with that) which preceded that, and during which Rav Elchonon very much did live.
The Zionists did not suddenly snap their fingers in 1948 and create their idolatrous shmad state. They amassed almost $100,000,000 dollars (in 1940s money) in weapons first. They also had a provisional government prior to 1948. Etc.
@moishekapoieh:
For ashkenazim, it would be easier to call it “medinas yisrael” rather than the the sefardic (adapted by the Zionists for shmad) “medinat…”.You happen to be right, though, that Eretz Yisrael should not be conflated with, liHavdil, the Zionist State, and the violence in question is a matter pertaining to the Zionist State, not to E”Y.
So, a better topic would have been “Violence in the State of Israel”.
Regarding the Zionist propaganda nonsense about 2,00 years of torture and death, while there certainly have been occasional periods of immense suffering in this long galus, nonetheless, the Zionist State is the worst galus, galus under the Yevsektzia (the Jewish communists) as Rav Elchonon Wasserman put it.
The Zionists also played a significant role in WW II, both spiritually and physically.
So, to be clear, no, “we” do not have our own “medina”. The Zionists have invaded portions of E”Y and falsely declared that the Zionists represent all Jews and that their Zionist State is the “Jewish” State when in fact it is only the “Zionist”, not Jewish, State.
No mesorah:
That might be, for starters, because their influence is worldwide and people who eat meat slaughtered by them (by the neo-Christians, not by the “Meshichists”) would be eating neveila.Dora:
Your definition of “very small” includes their “Ask the Rabbi” host, on the video posted on an earlier thread, where he responded that his Rebbe’s characteristics include being infinite (ain sof), Godly (elokus), atzmius (God incarnate), among others.This is neo-Christianity, not Judaism, and Rav Aharon Feldman wrote that people who carry such beliefs are not “bichlal amisecha”, their shechita is invalid, their wine is yayin nesech, et al.
It is highly disingenuous to compare this to your hypothetical and non-existent example wherein you named Satmar.
Always_Ask_Questions:
His party platform is only part of the issue. You didn’t consider that every Zionist (and party) has signed on to the Zionist “Jerusalem Program”, which is heretical and idolatrous Zionism.The “definition” of Zionism is not an issue. Also, anything that removes Hashem from the equation is, of course, beyond the pale and not a “hashkafa” dispute. But that’s almost besides the point.
@Always_Ask_Questions:
The facts have all been listed, and they are not feelings but facts.Liberman is not a Zionist? The very name of his party which he heads is pretty indicative that he is.
@Marxist:
Those differences do not make for a practical difference. It’s been explained many times, but certain people seem unwilling to believe it.The shmad that underlies all of those idolators is that the Jewish people and faith would need to be changed to an idolatrous Nationalist/land-based godless people and faith.
Always_Ask_Questions:
No, it is not outdated but current. The Zionists in the Zionist State still target Chareidim and the Torah, and are still essentially the same Zionists as their predecessors (less “labor” more “militancy”, but that’s not relevant). Zionism is all about changing the Jew and his religion from Torah-based to godless and idolatrous Nation-State based.This is evil, heretical and offensive to every believing Jew, except for those who worship that idol of Zionism. It is not history; it is current, even more so, in some cases, with the current band of thug Zionists in power in the Zionist State.
No, to be clear, nobody hates the Jews in Israel who the Zionists shmaded and who don’t know any better thanks to that Zionist shmad. But that Zionist shmad should certainly be recognized for the horror, multi-generation, that it is, rather than being ignored in favor of idol worship of Zionism.
@Avi K:
Denying reality, which is the vast majority of your post at 8:28 AM, isn’t very practical.I will note though that the Chazon Ish noted that there are two types of apikorsim today: those who celebrate Yom haAtzamos and those who blame the gedolim for the deaths of Jews in Europe.
Looks like you’re 2 for 2.
Of course, the Zionists totally omit their anti-Jewish activities before and during WW II, like the Zionists lobbying governments AGAINST accepting Jewish refugees from the Holocaust, which lead to the deaths of untold numbers of Jews in the Holocaust.
In addition, the Nazis were poised to invade Palestine and it was only Hashem’s chessed that stopped them from doing so. The Brisker Rav left Europe for Palestine, during the war, despite the physical danger of going to Palestine, only because of chinuch. He felt that it was better to risk the physical danger in Palestine.
edited
Perhaps it’s not interesting to you because you don’t believe obvious facts and plain history?
Zionism is all about replacing G-d and His Torah as the basis of Jews and Judaism with, instead, idolatrous godless Nationalism. This is not in dispute. This is, of course, therefore, the basis of their “education” in schools and indoctrination in their shmad army. In their army, they define what is Judaism, not what is an Israeli “national”. That is shmad.
The Zionists have been shmading Jews in Israel since before 1948.
That’s at least approx. 3/4 of a century. That’s easily three generations.You don’t want proofs; you want to believe in your idol. We just read this morning: “eile elohecha…”