Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
chiefshmerel:
You seem to have missed the part that Rabbi Kaplan lived there and attended that yeshiva in Chevron. You can ignore the reality of the Zionists having caused that, if you choose to do so. But those are the facts.anon1m0us:
A title of Rosh Yeshiva is not very impressive if it applied to an idolatrous heretical Zionist “yeshiva”. Regardless, he is either an idolater or…misguided, shall we say?This has nothing to do with the idolatry and heresy of Zionism.
SQUARE_ROOT:
You seem very confused. Please take this discussion to a competent local orthodox rabbi.AAQ:
As it is, the Zionists SAVED lots of people, you wrote? The Zionists are responsible for death and destruction, physical and spiritual, of millions of Jews since they started over a century ago (including the Holocaust). An arsonist could run over with a fire hose and put out a little bit of the fire that burned down a big building that the arsonist, himself started – to use the Satmar Rav’s mashal.AAQ and YB:
I responded to your mockery of me, if the mods choose to post it.yankel berel:
It’s a shame that you consider the Torah’s view to be minor and anachronistic.
Torah-observant Jews accord the Torah view as the supreme view over liHavdil anything else.@SQUARE_ROOT:
You should really try to read beyond the first few words.Let’s try again, just a few more words this time:
“Nobody of note held the oaths to not be in force. You are stating falsehoods. If you were honest and would quote the original source in context, then at least others would see that you are at least mistaken if not being outright dishonest.”yankel berel:
Of course note. In the real world, you simply misunderstood (or are just lying about) what the Avnei Nezer actually held. Go ahead and quote his full text in its original.AAQ:
No, the Zionists need to pay the price for their own endless wars that they wickedly started against the will of the chareidim already living in E”Y when the Zionists first invaded and the chareidim begged the Zionists to stop causing trouble and to go away.The wicked Zionists should allow the chareidim to work, in “modern society”, rather than forcibly impoverish them until they turn 26 years old; at which point, only then, they can start working.
But the Zionists want them in the army for the reason they don’t allow them to work: because they want to convert them from Judaism to Zionism in their shmad army. And that is a non-starter, of course.
Yaakov Yosef A:
Nope. Hashem designed this world, especially during galus, that we be separate from the nations. “VaAvdil eschem min haAmim liHyos li.”
He also designed Antisemitism as a wake-up call for when Jews get too close to the nations, CH”V. As Rav Chaim Brisker noted, if the Jews don’t make kiddush, then the goyim will make havdala.Zionism is, of course, the ultimate assimilation, and has spread its ideological tentacles worldwide in unprecedented ways. That is what is frightening to a maamin or at least to anyone who thinks he is a maamin.
IzoBar:
The gedolim have written about it, including (but not limited to) Rav Miller’s “A Divine Madness”, though in general much less than one would expect out of sensitivity to Holocaust survivors. But the history is clear. The facts are what they are. It is totally irrelevant what Hitler YM”Sh did or did not consider as a Jew. He was just a Divine “stick”, as Rav Elchonon wrote. In Kovetz Maamarim, Rav Elchonon wrote that the two predominant idols served by Jews then were Nationalism and Socialism. Heaven thus arranged, middah kinegged middah, a deadly combination of those two forces in the form of, of course, the Nationalist Socialist party of Germany of the time, otherwise known, in short, as “Nazi”. Again, the facts are what they are.@SQUARE_ROOT:
Nobody of note held the oaths to not be in force. You are stating falsehoods. If you were honest and would quote the original source in context, then at least others would see that you are at least mistaken if not being outright dishonest.Nobody of note held that the Zionist extreme violations of the oaths in 1948, when they founded their “State” were in any way less severe due to the LoN and UN. (Besides, since when do the Zionists “hold of” the UN? Oh, when it’s convenient for them, of course.) And, in fact, the “State” of “Israel” was most certainly established by lots and lots of force.
Yes, as mentioned, all rabbis (obviously Mizrachi idolaters are not relevant) did indeed hold that oaths are in effect, and it is even more plain to see that the wicked Zionists very much did violate those oaths in founding their “State”, including the war and terror the wicked Zionists waged against the Brits (and the Arabs) in order to get their “State”. It is insulting to people’s intelligence (and not a good reflection on yours) when you deny clear and obvious history.
SQUARE_ROOT:
You seem to be projecting. Please seek assistance about that. Also, please stop copying/pasting Zionist propaganda – and lies and falsehoods – all over these boards. Zionist idolatry and lies are already pervasive without your adding to that.Always_Ask_Questions:
That’s interesting. Zionism is a particularly toxic form of Nationalism. Yet you’re claiming that the wicked Zionists understood the dangers of nationalism and were trying to help, despite that the Zionists are virulent nationalists. And the Zionists were the ones who made the cataclysmic mess for Jews (including the Zionists both causing, and hurting Jews during, the Holocaust) specifically because of their idolatrous Nationalism, because they decided that if Jews converted from Judaism to Nationalism and if Jews would then be “normal” like the gentile nations in having their own land, then they would finally be accepted as goyim by the gentiles. Of course, none of that happened, but the idolaters still believe in their idol and others even defend that idol as being good for the Jews despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Other than the horrors of harugei beithar, which could have been tens of millions or more Jews murdered R”L, depending on how one learns that gemara in Gittin, there has never been anywhere near as much Jewish blood spilled like water R”L at any point in history as there has been since the founding of and continuation of Zionism. You just need to open your eyes to the facts as they are today, too. The Zionists need billions of dollars a year for “security”, which they anyways don’t have. Their billion dollar Gaza wall was breached by some savages in over 100 places!! Only an idolater with far too little awareness of G-d could possibly claim that Zionism has been good for Jews.chiefshmerel:
Nope. You are not being honest. The massacres in Tzfas in the early 1800s had zero to do with the Chevron Massacre. And, as Rav Baruch Kaplan testified – he lived there in Chevron – the Jews in Mandatory Palestine lived in peaceful coexistence with the Arabs – until the wicked Zionists invaded and with the bald Zionist lie of doing so in the name of the Jews.yankel berel:
This is an excellent example of…not my ignorance and it is not at all anachronistic, if one knows the history rather than just believing nonsense Zionist propaganda. The discussion was about how the Jews lived peacefully there prior to the Zionist invasion at the fin de siè·cle. Therefore, the context would indeed have been colonial rule. As well, after the Zionists terrorized and fought the Brits into leaving in 1948, the UN told the Zionists that they intended to start a new mandate, which the Zionists refused and instead declared their “independence” and at the cost of tens of thousands of Jewish lives, because the Zionists care only about Zionism, certainly not Jewish lives. So, as mentioned, that’s what was supposed to happen: the UN would have started a new mandate in 1948.yankel berel:
After SJIK proves to you that what you claim you were taught is heretical nonsense, you just double down and claim there is a “mahloket” on the issue. No, there is not.The clear and undisputed mesorah is that the Oaths are practically applicable and very real. That’s why the “Religious Zionist” scholar idolaters waste so much ink trying pathetically and futilely to work around them: because everyone knows they are a fact, if they care to be honest. Go take the facts to your rabbis and let them explain to you, if that would make you happy.
chiefshmerel:
I don’t recall seeing this question before, so I don’t know why it has lately become very fashionable for Zionists here to claim that I have “never answered” and the like.Rabbi Kaplan was there and, of course, was right. No, it wasn’t because a group asked for permission to use a mechitza. It was because the wicked Zionists (not religious at all, too) marched at the Kosel claiming it was a “national” symbol, at which point the Muslims thought that their Al Aqsa mosque was in danger from these Zionists. When the Mufti came to Rabbi Kook to complain, instead of decrying the wicked Zionists as the baryonim that they were, and reassuring him that Jews simply wanted to live there in peace and that the Zionists do not represent Jews – instead of the truth – Rabbi Kook stated that he could not distinguish between religious and national feelings, so he would not condemn these Zionists for the blatant and totally unneeded provocation they made – that’s even though these Zionists were atheists, so, even if you graft nationalism unto the Torah as he did, it would still be very easy to distinguish between nationalism and religion since those particular Zionists were not at all religious.
Chaim87:
“It’s not kefira to say that a holy tzadik held Zionism is a haschalta degula and I hold of it. No he need not be the leading gadol”Yes, that certainly is kefirah, no matter which stories you tell, because the facts remain that the founding of the Zionist “State” was, as the Brisker Rav put it, “the greatest triumph of the satan since the cheit heEigel” and that claiming that this mass rebellion against G-d is the beginning of the redemption is a total mockery of the Torah, on its face. By now, it’s even more silly to claim that, because Zionism has been around for over a century by now, so if their “State” was really supposed to be the start of the redemption, then the redemption should have happened long, long ago.
Back then, in the stories you keep mentioning, even if there were some people who didn’t know the Torah’s rules and, back then, were fooled into thinking the impossible that this extreme rebellion against G-d (Zionism and its “State”) was somehow the beginning of the redemption, still, that mistake could have been made only in 1948 or perhaps a year or two later. To make that claim now is simply silly, as mentioned.
By that “logic”, the Gr”a’s students moving to E”Y was the aschalta diGeulah. Or, more likely, everyone knows that we just follow the Torah’s rules and understand that an extreme rebellion against G-d (meaning, Zionism and its “State”) is exactly that – a rebellion against G-d – and obviously not the beginning of the redemption. Rav Elchonon Wasserman HY”D already noted that Zionism and its State were obviously not the aschalta diGeula, as did all the rest as well.
IzoBar:
You are ignoring the reality that the Jews did indeed live in peace with the Arabs prior to the Zionist invasion over a century ago and, yes, it is exactly Zionism that is the reason for the forever wars there that the Zionists caused.@Yankel Berel:
Nope. Nobody stated “wholesale slaughter”, R”L L”A. You made that up.
And, no, the Steipler (not in KA and not anywhere else) did not permit maintaining the “State” once it was founded – just voting in its internal elections – and, yes, it was Rabbi Schachter who promulgated that “misunderstanding”.Nobody asked the Zionists to invade and make the cataclysmic mess that they did. In fact, the Jews there begged the Zionists not to invade and to leave once they did. How the mess will be cleaned up is something that only G-d knows. But the closest solution seems to be what I posted. If it’s not “airtight” enough for you, you can blame that on the wicked Zionists who have caused terrible trouble for Jews for over a century and got their Zionist paradise into what it is today.
Only a fool can continue to claim that the oaths are not binding, ignoring history and thousands of years of psak, without bringing the original text of even one source that they claim states otherwise.
yankel berel
That was a rather inaccurate summary. Wow.The facts are that the Zionist army is shmad. Period. Hypotheticals of what if the “State” would be haredi instead of Zionist are just that: hypothetical (and impossible, as per the oaths, but that’s almost besides the point).
As well, the choice is not a binary at all. They can simply pick up and leave. Or, they can defend themselves without the framework of the Zionist shmad army at all. “Wholesale slaughter” is a straw-man argument by you.
It is Zionism that bothers the gentiles, not Judaism. The gentiles know the dirty secret that the Zionists are invaders who represent only themselves and not Jews, even if they publicly play along that the Zionist paradise is “Jewish”. They don’t see Jews as Nazis, but rather the Zionists, again, of course. Et al.
The “MO” Rabbi surely knows that while Israel did not exist during the Holocaust, Zionism most certainly did – and the Zionists were provoking, fighting and terrorizing both the British and Arabs before, during and after that Holocaust – in addition to lobbying governments against allowing in Jews to their lands to escape the Zionist-caused Holocaust, despite world governments offering to take in Jews to save their lives. Therefore, his argument of “It is not the existence of Israel [that causes them to hate], because as the Holocaust reminds us, they also hated us when there was no Israel.” is fallacious even if, at best, it is technically true that the Zionist “State” did not formally exist until 1948.
Zionism is not Judaism: never was and never will be.
yankel berel:
You are the one making things up and ignoring poskim.The IDF (and Zionism) is shmad. Period. End of story. It’s like an apple or pear is a fruit. Period. That is what it is.
No, of course, it is not permitted for any Jew to join that shmad army. Obviously not.
You can summarize the Zionist army as a massive force of shmad and all three of the gimmel chamuros – all yehareig viAl yaavor – that might happen to also save some Jewish lives and also causes problems for Jews worldwide and even more locally there, especially being under the command of Zionist heretics, etc.
Regarding the oaths applying to the Zionists and their army, the Zionists should never have started their mass rebellion and destruction, and should have gone (and presumably still could go) to the nations and figure out a way for the nations to take over in a way that protects all the Jews there. But that’s irrelevant anyways, because the Zionists hate the Torah and Judaism and care only about Zionism, not Torah and Jews. Their army is their mess, not for Jews.
The oaths have been brought down as halachically applicable/practical by numerous poskim throughout the ages, and have had historical impact, as we have seen from Chazal and history. Just the fact that “Religious Zionist” scholars attempt to disprove their applicability with the nonsense they have churned out, some of which has been seen on these boards, tells you that the oaths are indeed very real – or else the Zionist idolaters wouldn’t bother trying to find arguments to negate them.
@yankel berel:
I asked for the original text, not your take on it.
The oaths are obviously fully in force/practical, as brought by numerous poskim and as seen throughout the ages, and as seen by the pathetic Zionist nonsense attempts by even their great scholars to argue against the oaths since it conflicts with their Zionist idol.
Vatranus is a very powerful segulah.
returnagain2:
In the Zionist paradise, the national religion is shmad/Zionism. In the Zionist paradise, one has to fight the national culture just to be a religious Jew. This does not exist in most countries in the world. Many of the Jews around the world who do not know about the beauty of our faith have been deprived of that due to the massive mess created by the Zionists, including the Holocaust.SQUARE_ROOT:
You keep copy/pasting other people’s mistakes.
The Chevron Massacre of 1929 was indeed because of the Zionists. That’s history and facts.
It is silly to ask a question from riots in Tzefas a century earlier.AAQ:
Nobody said that Mandatory Palestine should have been under Arab rule. It should have remained under Christian rule, as it was before the Zionists invaded and made the mess they did. Then, Jews would have their own religious councils and control over their religious lives, and not have to deal with all the cataclysmic mess the Zionists foisted on the Jews (and, liHavdil, the rest of the region).Regardless, yes, the Zionists made a tremendous mess, especially for Jews, ever since they started over a century ago.
You spew the same nonsense in multiple threads. Agudath Israel’s lay leadership does come across that way because they think that this will help the Jews under Zionist control there. They are not pro-Israel; they are practical, and they think that their advocacy will help the Jews under Zionist control.
SQUARE_ROOT:
Yes, their lay leadership does come across that way because they are concerned about the Jewish lives there, and they therefore think that advocating for the Zionist “government” is needed to help the Jews there under Zionist control. That seems to be the lay leaders’ logic.SQUARE_ROOT:
Now you’re copying and pasting from other posters, including their typos?
The Chevron (not Tzefas) riot of 1929 was indeed a direct result of Zionism and, yes, Jews did live peacefully there prior to the Zionist invasion.
The Tzefas (note that is Tzefas, not Jerusalem and not the rest of the land) riots about a century earlier were obviously due to other political factors at that time. But that isn’t relevant to the facts and truth which you and other Zionist idolaters refuse to accept, as mentioned.AAQ:
Nobody claims that the Arabs should have taken over a century ago. Had the Zionists never invaded, the land would have presumably been ruled by the Christians, with individual religious councils for Jews and, liHavdil, Muslims, living peacefully in their respective areas as they did prior to the Zionist invasion.@SQUARE_ROOT
Why do you spew the same nonsense in multiple places on these boards? Better to have not done so to begin with.
Agudah’s lay leadership certainly does seem pro-Israel because they treat Israel like any other country in which Jews are living; they want that government (in this case, “government”) to treat its Jews well, so they advocate on behalf of the Jews living in that country. That doesn’t mean their approach is valid, but that is their approach.Yaakov Yosef A and ZSK:
That is also Zionism, especially as per their current leader’s teacher’s teacher. Jabotinsky wrote that the new Hebrew Zionist, the replacement of the Jew, will be the exact opposite of the Jew (he misappropriated the term “ipcha mistabra”). When you look at a real Jew and see his characteristics, the new Hebrew Zionist replacement of the Jew will be the opposite.This is pretty stunning, if you think about that. Both the Christians and Muslims each gained tremendously from their exposure to Torah and their respective corruptions of the Torah in service of their respective invented religions. But the Zionists are a very different breed than even the Christians and Muslims, according to this Zionist. Take a look at a real Jew and imagine his opposite – not “just” becoming nationalist idolaters and Esav and the like.
But, no, Zionism is very much alive there. Zionism holds, at a minimum, that Jews are a nation-state-based nation like all other nations and that the Zionist paradise is the nation-state of the Jewish people. All of that is false, heretical and (of course) abominable, but very much alive today, unfortunately.
And since you mentioned “Religious Zionists”: again, the facts are that “Religious Zionism” is heresy and idolatry. The Chazon Ish held that the wine of a Mizrachi is yayin nesech. Anyone (not just “Religious Zionists”) who believe in even the slightest deviation from the Torah is a heretic. If you claim there are some “Religious Zionists” who fully believe in the Torah and not at all in Nationalism and other heresies – like anyone else – but happen to be pro-settler or whatever, then that’s a different matter and that means that they (and only they) are not “Religious Zionists” in that sense of the word. I’m not looking to judge anyone CH”V; but we do need to be clear on the facts and ideologies.
IzoBar:
“I rarely ever post on here but when you keep repeating the claim that riots in israel eg the [Chevron] riot of 1929 is beacuse of the zionists and that before the zionists the jews lived safely in Israel is factually incorrect. How do you explain the riots in tzfat in the 19th century eg tzfat 1834 or 1838? Not everything can be blamed on the zionists. ”No, what I wrote is factually correct. The facts are, as Rav Baruch Kaplan and other have noted (and as plain history records), the Chevron Massacre in the late 20s was a direct result of Zionist (needless, even by Zionist “standards”) provocation. I didn’t say that the Jews there lived in Gan Eden before that, but they did certainly did live peacefully before that.
It isn’t logical to argue that this fact is therefore incorrect just because you know of a riot that occurred about a century prior to the Chevron Massacre. The facts are the facts. Your question about what caused that riot is a different matter. The facts are, again, that the Zionists caused the Chevron Massacre and that, going back well before that massacre, prior to the Zionist invasion and even a little afterwards, the Jews lived peacefully there. Those massacres there were a result of other politics; that part is of course true.
an Israeli Zionist:
Right. And since learning Torah is indeed more important than anything else, then they should also never stop to eat and drink because learning is more important.Keith:
Please consult with your local orthodox rabbi.Kiruv certainly has its place, but that was obviously not the reference here. The discussion here is about the Zionist army whose express purpose is to destroy the Judaism of its inductees (and to destroy Judaism overall and remake it as Zionism, in general).
Regarding G-d loving sinners, that is true, and He does always wait for them to return. But we are commanded to hate those who hate G-d. Heretics do not receive any of the benefits of being Jews. Of course, Jews who never learned about G-d and the Torah are not to be hated. But this is all very much besides the point.
Again, please consult with your LOR.
coffee addict:
I don’t think it’s the same benefits, as Torah Learning is generally higher than other mitzvos, but it does make it the right thing for them to do, as you noted.simcha613:
I think your perspective on this is somewhat backwards, which is the likely cause of your frustration.
The chareidim not only want, but do indeed deserve, exemptions from the Zionist shmad army for all Torah Jews, not just those learning. This isn’t an “obvious problem” at all, especially if you understand the metzius.But first, your baseline assumptions are way off.
1. The Zionists were the ones who invaded against the will of the Torah Jews and therefore created their need for an army. That’s on the Zionists, not on the Torah Jews who not only didn’t ask for the Zionists to come invade, but actually begged the Zionists to stop invading and destroying the peace they had there and to leave. The wicked Zionists didn’t and don’t care.
2. There are halachos that determine where a Jew may or may not go. A Jew needs to be among Torah Jews, not among heretics. Zionism and its army exists for one reason only: shmad. The express purpose of Zionism is to convert Judaism and Jews from Torah-based Judaism to idolatrous land-based secular nationalism instead. In case you missed any of that, that means the Zionists want to replace Judaism and Jews with Zionism and Zionists. The Zionist shmad army is the main tool of the Zionists to effect that change. Obviously, then, a Jew cannot possibly be required to enter an institution which will damage his Judaism, all the more so not one like the Zionist shmad army whose express purpose is to shmad them, to convert them from Judaism to Zionism.
Further background:
The wicked invading Zionists, back then, made a deal with Agudah that Torah learners will be exempt from the Zionist shmad army in return for Agudah not exposing to the UN the Zionist Big Lie that the Zionists really represent only Zionists and not Jews. Based on the above, we can understand why Agudah lay leaders made that deal. They incorrectly took as a foregone conclusion the then-impending establishment of the “State”, not understanding, as the Brisker Rav noted, that decisions by a kesher reshaim are not relevant in Heaven. However, based on that mistaken assumption, they figured that they have no choice but to accept that impending establishment as reality, and then negotiate with the Zionists. So, they figured, as long as the Torah Jews are exempted from the shmad army, then they can continue to remain Torah Jews, so they made that deal with the Zionists that they wouldn’t expose to the UN the Zionist Big Lie for what it is, namely that the Zionists do not represent Jews but rather only Zionists, in exchange for the Zionists not shmading the Torah Jews in their army.3. Therefore, it is only because the wicked Zionists force the Torah Jews to either learn or else be shmaded in the Zionist army, that the Torah Jews all have to learn until 26 years old until the Zionists finally exempt them and let them start working, which means the Torah Jews are impoverished by the Zionists in the process. But the real problem is the wicked Zionists, who don’t let them live as Jews so they could be free to work like Jews do in actual countries all over the world.
4. On a less important note, you are assuming that the wicked Zionists need more soldiers, even according to their calculations. The wicked Zionists have been lying since they came into existence a century ago, so I’m not sure why you are so quick to believe them that they need more soldiers. In fact, if the wicked Zionists would go to the nations and ask Esav to take over, however exactly that needs to be worked out, as the Satmar Rav noted decades ago, then they wouldn’t need any soldiers. I know that even considering this possibility blows the minds of Zionist idolaters because it is heresy to Zionists, so you have to just use your imagination a little and think outside the idolatrous box of Zionism on this one.
Regardless, bottom line, the wicked Zionists are the ones who opened this “pandora’s box” against the will of the Torah Jews living there, and the Zionists are the ones who can clean up their own cataclysmic mess that they the Zionists made against the will of the Torah Jews living there.
SQUARE_ROOT:
Denying reality and trolling are both really not productive.
He is obviously not at all typical of those who enter the Zionist shmad arm.
Also, your “logic” is anyways fallacious. One exception obviously does not negate the entire rule, of course.Let’s review, again, since the idol of Zionism seems to allow you no rest.
1. Zionism is a shmad (as per all the gedolim and as anyone with even half a brain knows). The express goal – and unchanging – of Zionism, ever since it was founded, was and is, simply, to replace Judaism and Jews with godless idolatrous nationalism/Zionism and Zionists. It really is that simple.
2. The Zionist army is the main brainwashing tool of that shmad.
3. Therefore, as both logic and history/statistics show, the Zionist army is a shmad factory. Again, it really is that simple.As to your rant at the end:
When Jews not brainwashed by Zionism witness the disgusting HATE (Judenhass) of the wicked Zionists, that does NOT make them view favorably the idolatry and heresy that is Zionism. On the contrary, the Zionists push those Jews farther-away from the idolatry and heresy of Zionism, with the Zionists’ wicked disgusting relentless hate, including attempting to forcibly shmad the yeshiva students and much, much more.Yaakov Yosef A:
That means that of course they are doing more shmad now.Zionism is shmad, of course.
For example, the wicked Zionists are pushing the filth that is Zionist heresy and idolatry to all the millions of schoolchildren in their school systems (except for the chareidim who know better than to take Zionist money).YB:
I never stated that. The oaths are not relevant to individual/local self-defense. You seem to have confused the two. And the Zionist army is a shmad and non-starter, regardless.SQUARE_ROOT:
The Agudah lay leadership writes with the understanding that the Zionists have “control” of the lives of millions of Jews. You can interpret that however you wish, but that is the obvious motivation there. Regardless, that doesn’t have any relevance as to whether or not its gedolim hold more stringent views than that.But none of that is anyways relevant to the various Zionist nonsense being spewed on these boards. The facts remain that Zionism and its army are a shmad, and obviously a non-starter for Jews to be drafted into that army. And the oaths have been brought down as halacha by poskim throughout the ages. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. Even Agudah’s lay leadership (never mind the gedolim) did not deny any of that.
yankel berel:
1. The S”A was not at all allowing the wicked heretics to establish an entire (shmad) “State” using terror and war against the nations – which even Rabbi Kook forbade. Obviously, one has nothing to do with the other.
2. He wasn’t referring to the oaths there, because the oaths aren’t counted as one of those issurim; but poskim throughout the ages bring them as being halachically applicable/practical, and there are open divrei chazal that mention terrible punishments R”L L”A that came about because of the oaths, like those from shevet Efraim who left Egypt early and harugei beithar about which we just learned over 9 Av.
3. This is an academic question, but in no way does that lack of inclusion act as a proof against the oaths, of course. It’s simply worth nothing that they aren’t found there, though other poskim certainly do bring them both before and after the S”A.The oaths are practically in force, as proven by both poskim and history, which is why “Religious Zionist” idolater scholars make pathetic but futile attempts (beneath their academic abilities) at explaining them away.
yb:
You still haven’t quoted the avnei nezer that supposedly states what you claim it does.
But the oaths are very obviously in force/practically applicable, as history has shown and as numerous poskim through the ages have brought, including BUT NOT LIMITED TO the Rambam in Moreh Nevuchim, which is why “Religious Zionists” come up with these wacky nonsensical ideas in trying to pretend they are no longer in force,As to the rest:
Even if there were some who somehow seem to be religious after going through the shmad of the Zionist army, that does not change the reality, facts and statistics of the shmad that is the Zionist army. Please stop with the silliness.The Zionist “State” was, is and always will be, absolutely forbidden. What to do or not to do about that is a matter debated by the gedolim. But serving in its shmad army is definitely not among the possibilities of what could be done.
Always_Ask_Questions:
Being drafted into the Zionist army is a vadai shmad – and all three of the gimmel chamuros – not a safeik, as the statistics show and as anyone who knows people there knows. The gedolim, therefore, ruled as UJM noted.yankel berel:
The questions are not questions, but they were answered many times.Nobody ever said that Jews should allow themselves to be slaughtered, R”L L”A. Of course not. And the Zionist army is an absolute non-starter. Those two facts do not contradict each other in the slightest, as mentioned many times before.
It doesn’t matter which country of Esav rules the land, so long as it’s done right – and it can and should be done right. And if they rule that land, then they would treat it like any other land, and protect the inhabitants of that land, as they do in their lands and territories today.
The Steipler never permitted maintaining the “State” once it was established; that is a myth perpetuated by, among others, the “Religious Zionist” authority Rabbi H. Schachter, but it is totally false. The Steipler there stated only that voting in the “State”‘s internal elections was permitted, as in for council members, etc. as opposed to voting to establish the “State” which was forbidden.
Shomu Shamayim that people are still fooled by the Zionist idol.
somejewiknow:
Zionism is much worse, actually.Zionism is the wholesale replacement of Judaism and Jews with, instead godless and idolatrous/nationalist Zionism and Zionists. Zionism doesn’t claim only to be compatible with Judaism. Zionism claims to **be** Judaism, discarding G-d, the Torah and our rich and beautiful heritage (including much of our history) in the process.
(The “Religious Zionists” simply add back on a little of the Torah (and G-d). As the Brisker Rav published, and many signed on to the same, “Religious Zionist” education is a “sea of heresy mixed in with a drop of Torah”.)
Yaakov Yosef A:
“…from many decades ago, when Secular Zionism was a very real issue…”
This is one of the sillier Zionist memes.Many years ago, the wicked Zionists were doing atrocities like yaldei teiman and yaldei tehran and all the rest. But even if they aren’t literally throwing away people’s priceless sefarim as they dock in Haifa, they are actually doing much more shmad now than then. Just consider the simple statistics of how many Israelis are totally secular (not just “Religious Zionist” idolaters, but totally secular).
As well, right now, the wicked Zionists are pulling out all the stops to close the yeshivos there. As you can read on the Jewish blogs like YWN, their gestapo attempted to take away a yeshiva student from his house at 1 AM just last night.
SQUARE_ROOT:
Please consult an Orthodox Rabbi ASAP. Your response is concerning.What I stated is a simple fact and reality, also stated by the gedolim.
Therefore, it is not motzi shem ra, as that would be false.
It is also not lashon haRa, because that applies only to those who are biChlal amisecha, not to the Zionist shmad “State” and its army, of course.
It is also not “gross ingratitude”, as it does not impact in any way gratitude or lack thereof.
It is not sinah, and also not chinam.
It is also not machlokes.Please seek immediate rabbinical counseling to address your lack of understanding in these important Torah matters.
Yaakov Yosef A:
“1. Chareidi opposition to service in the IDF in its present form doesn’t have anything to do with ‘Zionism’. It is primarily due to והיה מחניך קדוש (the basis of a ‘Jewish Army’), and even honest RZ admit that is true.”
Although your reason is true, and a non-starter, the opposition is even more basic: Zionism is shmad and their army is the chief instrument of that shmad.Zionism is idolatrous and heretical (godless) nationalism, and (not merely adding on to, which would be terrible as it is but) redefining Judaism and Jew into Zionism and Zionist. The Zionist army is one major way in which the wicked Zionists accomplish that shmad.
AAQ:
Of course, the baryonim of today would be the Zionists. The wicked Zionists created a cataclysmic mess in the holy land, and need billions of dollars each year to keep their idol “State” going. Like by the baryonim, the wicked Zionists wanted to force Jews to fight wars in the Jews’ land rather than letting them live in peace, as we just learned in the gemara in gittin over 9 Av.Chaim can make up his stories, but they don’t change the facts that Zionism in all forms is treif, as written explicitly by the greatest gedolim.
And yes, of course there are answers to the weak questions implicit in the stories.But, bottom line, you have Rav Elchonon’s Kovetz Maamarim, the Brisker Rav, the Chazon Ish and all the rest who published that Zionism is idolatry and heresy. For example, the Brisker Rav published a KK in a newspaper, signed by, among others, the Gerrer Rebbe, that “Religious Zionist” education is a “sea of heresy mixed in with a drop of Torah”. Those are the facts. And then there are Chaim’s stories.
user176:
Promoting Zionism in any way is the epitome of sinas Yisrael (as in hate of Jews).
But, by your logic, attacking Palestinian Nationalism in any of its forms is literally baseless hate.yankel berel:
You can make up whatever stories you want. The Zionist army is shmad, in addition to the issues of the three oaths. The Zionist army is all three of the inviolable prohibitions: idolatry, immorality and spilling blood – and shmadAnd your nonsense about the oaths is just that. Many poskim throughout the ages have ruled that the oaths are in force, even though it is not a clear mitzva in the Torah like honoring your parents or the like. And none of the authorities you quoted ruled against that. The oaths are clearly in force, which is why the “Religious Zionist” idolaters try to hard to nullify them with various nonsensical claims.