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ohr chodesh -“Sam: The pendulum has swung far in the other direction. There are only a very small number of times where a needed divorce is ignored. Yet there are many many unnecessary divorces. In fact, the vast majority of divorces are as such. Nowadays divorce is, unfortunately, considered just another option that’s no big deal.”
I agree and this is what happenned to me. But my wife wasn’t influenced by therapists -it was her “Frum” friends. We have come to the point in time were you could be extremely Yeshivish on the outside and have totally No Torah Hashkofos on the inside.
Even though some posters here have blamed therapists for this situation -I’ve found the more “Modern” therapists to not push for divorce so fast. Why can people nowadays look so Frum on the outside and not have any Torah thoughts on the inside?
Perhaps this can be addressed with an Asifa?
yeshivishsocrates -“As for tachlis, “The ultimatum is either you go for help or I’m leaving.” That sort of ultimatum is exactly the one i was saying was wrong for the occasion. She has to be on his side, its a shared issue and acting in the way you suggest he should is indicative of a very different stance. Even if it is successful as a deterrent for him, the more devastating result is the breakdown in this relationship. If he does “give up” out of the fear of losing her, his commitment is far less strong as its not based on his own motivation but from a lack of options.”
My post to you last nite was deleted, even though yours’ was accepted.
You didn’t understand my post -perhaps the topic is too difficult for young people. The ultimatum wasn’t for him to stop his behavior -only to go for therapy. And even if that was the ultimatum, it still works. Your implication for her to do it alone or if she can’t, to let him be – is ridiculous. She shouldn’t allow this behavior -no matter what! Therapy is the solution and if not, perhaps divorce.
And I personally know s/o who gave their hubby an ultimatum about his addiction to stop, not what I was talking about, and he did. It solved the problem. And no, it wasn’t me.
Your solution of her getting him to stop has no basis in reality!
Sam – I don’t drink excessively before a fast and not really any more than normal. Chazal/Torah got it right -they said to eat Erev YK. And this principle would apply to other fasts. Foods contain water. Some people eat pasta and/or other complex carbs that take a long time to digest. As these things are slowly digesting they release water. Excessive drinking beforehand can cause Health problems. But I do drink a lot after the fast. I try to start with a Powerade/Gatorade. But this year -I’m gonna start with a Beer!
Kozov -“I dont know where to look,”
On the main page of the CR there is a topic called “Searching for old posts” -this is where you go to find something.
“but anyways I said i wasnt talking halachikly, i was just being meir a m”r that seemed to indicate that kfira is more severe. Would you agree to that? Im going to bring more mekoros (halachik this time) right now if they were already mentioned or its off topic feel free to not respond.”
Listen go to this topic below and comment over there. I researched it for you because I didn’t remember myself. You can’t come here and start guessing what we were talking about over there. If you want to start a topic about Kefira go ahead, but it has nothing to do with my argument with Sam – which is what this topic is about!
The topic is called:
“Does Neturei Karta have a point?”
Mammele- “If what the mother in that case is claiming is true, it proves bloomberg and company have an agenda and we better toughen our stance. Also, can the newspapers be sued for defamation of religious practice (or something else) as I don’t remember reading “allegedly” contracted, just contacted through the ancient practice…”
The only ones that could be sued is the Gov. if they actually outlaw this. This issue smells all the way to ____! I looked at the article and scientifically there doesn’t seem to be any conclusive proof that HSV is transmitted by MBP. This is the problem with having a Non-Frum Mayor. They don’t care a drop about religious practices -so they jump on the bandwagon if they will look PC!
Kozov – Well that’s what we were arguing about -what does that include over here. Before you post anymore – go read the topic.
CRuzer -“Health, how are you feeling?”
B’H fine, but a little hungry. Time for supper.
Sam- Well anyway it was a nice thing to do esp. during the 9 days.
Kozov -I’m not a 100% sure, but I think we were talking about the other way around – A kofer has a Din of an Oived Avodah Zara.
far east -“Health- saying “the likelihood is next to none” is basically saying it never happens.”
No, it’s saying it rarely happens. Perhaps you need to brush up on the English language?!?!
“Your taking the extreme side to an argument and not finding common ground. I’m not sure why you always seem to do this”
Your implication of some other reason is Not based on any logic.
I do this when the statistics point towards that. There aren’t any statistics regarding this for internet addiction, but you can extrapolate from smoking the quit rate of self-control.
From wikipedia:
“A 1995 meta-analysis estimated that the quit rate from unaided methods was 7.3% after an average of 10 months of follow-up.[13]”
Not a very high percentage for self-control.
Sam -Well it’s the nine days and you did the right thing. Good for you.
a mamin -“Health: Very interesting? Do you feel premarital therapy would not have helped save your marriage?”
If I would have been privy to some info -there wouldn’t have been a marriage.
And I feel Marital therapy would have saved my marriage -there was no need for Pre-marital therapy.
Please keep my personal situation out of your comments because even if you were right, I posted above “Therapists are for the small percentage that can’t handle their lives.”
So I don’t disagree that some people could benefit from pre-marital therapy, just it’s not needed for most people.
As far as Bolton’s comments -are they going to impact the Jewish Dems in this country? Those libs always claim they are pro-Israel; is this revelation going to be a game-changer for who these guys vote for?
arutz sheva is better – FYI, Truman is Not running for Pres. There was a purpose to the article and it wasn’t to list every Anti-semite that there ever was.
Guidance is good, but is professional help really needed?
Most new couples will find guidance from their parents and/or Rabbeyim. If it ain’t broke – why fix it?
Therapists are for the small percentage that can’t handle their lives. Therapy is Not a good idea for e/o because 1. it’s still a stigma in our community and 2. it’s very costly. Most people in our day and age don’t have $ for luxuries. Pre-marital therapy for Most people is a luxury, since it’s not really needed.
PBA – What Is your point? And who are you responding to?
yeshivishsocrates -“ultimatums are a bad idea,”
They aren’t a good or bad idea. They are a last resort measure.
“she should stand by his side and help him, be supportive.”
I think she is, but that doesn’t mean she shouldn’t take action.
“Being forced to quit something breeds resentment and hostility. If he does quit based on this ultimatum, something is missing in his commitment to quitting. He needs a warm and healthy environment, not one of supercilious condescension pressuring him.”
You should also read the Post(s) before commenting. You’re so wrapped up with this idea of him having self-control that you didn’t begin to get my point. The ultimatum is for him going to get help. I’ll reiterate from previous -it’s not her responsibility to get him to stop his behavior. All she has to do is try to get him help. If she pressures him to go for help and he does, hopefully he’ll respond to the therapy. If he doesn’t go or doesn’t respond to therapy, then she should consider divorce.
This should only be considered with guidance, not from family & friends, but from a Rov Experienced with Sholom Bayis and/or a therapist.
far east -“To say using self-control can never help is also simply foolish. Some people quit addictions on their own,”
To put words in people’s mouthes is also simply Foolish. How about reading the Posts before you comment?
From above:
“Even though it’s possible for anyone to stop on their own -the liklihood is next to none.”
scienceprogram – “Therefore, no matter what anyone here says about him seeing a therapist… is useless since your husband will not agree.”
Bad attitude. No, it’s not useless. The spouse now has to go to a Rov for the next step. Sometimes a Rov or his (husband’s) family members can pressure him to get help. If he still won’t listen, it’s now time for an ultimatum. This should only be done with the guidance of a Rov and/or therapist. The ultimatum is either you go for help or I’m leaving. It should Not be an empty threat. Again this step is Not something to do without guidance of a Rov and/or therapist!
yeshivishsocrates -“Ive posted my argument as many times as ive needed to respond to yours!”
Repeating something a thousand times doesn’t make it any more true than the first time around!
“Without knowledge of the statistics, who are you to say whether or not self control without intervention is enough?”
Yes, this Is the statistics. Since you’re online you can Google what professionals have to say. I already posted one above, but there is plenty of proof about needing professional intervention for people like this.
“I was not at the asifa in fact, so another horrible guess.”
I guess people like you didn’t need to go -you have the same train of thought as many of them there.
“Smoking is allowed in yeshivas because it aint as cut and dry as you claim it to be. They dont allow bochurim who are addicted to treif food to eat treif food, irrespective of their addiction to it. Smoking is allowed because bochurim are not in prison, they have the right to make and rectify their own mistakes, so long as they are not infringing on halacha. Before you jump down my throat about how assur smoking actually is, i wont entertain that argument, its been done by many greater people than myself and yet is still inconclusive.”
The fact that you and others are in denial doesn’t make it Muttar. Go to this topic here in the CR and you’ll see noone alive nowadays holds it’s Mutter. The fact that Some Yeshivos don’t treat it as pornography is simply because they are into the PC as opposed to just Mutter or Ossur!
ohr chodesh -“MSS: I’m seeking a heavy wife.
How many candidates can you send my way?”
Seriously, after living in Lakewood many years and seeing many newlyweds, most look for attractive wives. After a few years you can’t tell anymore what the guy wanted. The ones that marry the ugly, fat ones is usually due to money that they get; but of course not always. Not e/o in this world is shallow, just most!
yeshivishsocrates -“What you felt was missing from my post was precisely my point, that all he and she need is eachother and some will power. Its a dangerous problem but not one that is difficult to overcome with some will power. When i said that help is useless, i meant that it isnt necessary, its a problem which can and should be overcome within oneself, or within a couple.”
I understood your point, the first time. Don’t need to post it ten times.
“Hes struggling with an issue whose main weapon is convincing the sufferer that hes not suffering. That is the main problem of the husband, that he believes that what he is doing is not wrong. he needs just to learn some mussar, understand the cataclysmic effects of the aveiros which surround these nocturnal activities and through this, arrive at the realization that he needs to effect a change, WITHIN. He doesnt want to stop right now, he just wants to want to stop, when he does want to, hell find it alot easier than you may think.”
Yes, thank you for repeating your point over and over and I’ll repeat mine one more time. Even though it’s possible for anyone to stop on their own -the liklihood is next to none. And it’s ridiculous to say he doesn’t realize what he’s doing is wrong -he realizes it.
You must of gone to the Asifa where you picked up the notion that the solution to this problem is standing on your soap box screaming – Shaigetz! This won’t work, but going to a therapist has a good chance of working.
You still didn’t answer my question if all a person needs to do is work on themselves without outside help – why is smoking still allowed in most Yeshivos? Let them just stop. And if they experience some side effects (withdrawl) – so what? Let them just learn more Mussar about Yisurim. There is nothing that is holding them back from stopping cold turkey. If they don’t want to – let them learn more Mussar. And in case you don’t realize – smoking is Assur Gamur! We have a few topics about this in the CR – one was pretty recent!
takahmamash –
Now you respond? I posted this days ago.
“I think it’s you who’s distorting the facts. Not every IDF combat soldier sleeps in a barracks at night. Many of them are up all night, and combat soldiers have some variation of an “8 hours on, 8 hours off” schedule. That means they are on duty 16 hours a day. Do many kollel guys learn that many hours in a day? Not everyone is “always going home for the weekends,” either. Many only get home every second or third weekend.”
Yes, let’s see who is distorting the facts. This is the Combat soldier. Most soldiers aren’t combat soldiers.
From “hello99”:
“Should we change our entire lifestyle to accommodate the 6% of secular Israelis who put their lives on the line, because they are ignorant regarding the value of our contribution? And what about the 94% of secular Israelis who either don’t serve at all or serve in non-combat roles?”
“If IDF army guys are hitching, they face a pretty hefty fine if caught by the MPs. It’s actually illegal for anyone in the IDF to tremp, in uniform or not.”
That’s nice. They must not have a lot of MPs, since they all hitch. One trick that they do is stand by the bus stops and rides pull over for them. Next thing you’ll tell me is this isn’t called hitchhiking. Or the guys in uniform aren’t going home for the weekends – they really are on undercover missions.
yeshivishsocrates -“I will not corroborate your theory about my background, my response is irrespective of that. At the end of the day (totally overused phrasing) the man in question is suffering from an issue, compulsion or addicition, depends on whom you ask, but regardless he is suffering.”
Where did you learn English so well? Are you a Yeshiva Bochur that goes to college also?
“If, according to you, he needs help, you still cannot deny the importance of his wife being supportive of his issue.”
Well she wants to be supportive, but she doesn’t know how. That’s why she came here looking for advice.
“Not making it one to be ashamed of infront of her or making it one which makes him feel like an animal.”
Well if she would confront him, these things might be his reaction, so she might not want to confront him.
“Even with proffessional help, which i dont deny will be useful, just redundant,”
Ah, hypocrisy at its’ finest. You did deny it and I’ll quote -“it is not one which can be helped with anti addiction treatments.”
But at least you are finally getting my point!
“he will need self control and a supporting wife.”
The supporting wife part, I don’t disagree with, but some people can’t have self-control and that’s why they need Professional Mental help.
“You seem to be more intent on nit picking and playing semantics with my words than responding to the point behind them.”
Actually you are and that’s why you keep posting these long-winded posts.
“Addiction or compulsion, his loving wife should sit with him and help him to find a solution, they dont need to blog about it, they dont need medicine, they just need eachother and some perserverence.”
This is why Non-adults should Not post their opinion on adult themes. You keep posting the same Nonsense. She doesn’t know how to find a solution, nor is it necessarily her responsibility. She does have the responsibility to try to get him help, whether this is with a Rov familiar with these issues or with a therapist.
“What you seem to have done is subtracted the place of bechira by making it a psychological issue which is beyond his control. Its not – hes not crippled by it, he is just struggling with an issue, in the same way as each and everyone of us, barring possibly mrs Health, struggle with some sort of issue in our religious observence.”
Now, you’re making me into a woman. No, I have not removed his Bechira. My point is you can still have Bechira, but to make the right choice you need help. This help will have to be from some sort of professional. No, I don’t think Guard Your Eyes.org is sufficient enough.
To illustrate, most Yeshivos allow smoking or turn the other way.
Now, without going into the physical dependence issue because we do find people who just quit without help, why don’t they Assur smoking? Since they have Bechira, they could just stop. It’s not physically impossible to stop, just hard. The same is true with Internet addiction, it’s mentally hard to stop and they need professional help to overcome it.
yeshivishsocrates -“But i did nail the disenchanted parent thing didnt i! he he he”
Actually, I like to spend more time with my kids. My comments were referring to you and those like you. You belong in Yeshiva, not blogging about subjects you know nothing about.
“The definition of the term addiction is constantly being refined and there are those who will side with your post, which i did read before posting my chochmos. I offered my opinion, which was siding with those who see a discernable chasm between chemical addiction and compulsive behaviours. Youre entitled to disagree, a right which you seem to have taken to heart but, sadly, as a self confessed member of a generation, mainly only indirectly experiencing this problem, your opinion carries less weight.”
I told you to read the article before you responded. What you obviously don’t understand there are reasons that they just can’t change the definition. Millions of reasons – $.
Your conclusions about those that are still harping on the old definition is extremely immature. A person who is engaged in these types of activities, whether they meet the criteria of addiction or not, is irrevelant. Most of these people need Mental Health help, they Can Not just stop on their own!
To say that they can – shows the lack of understanding of Mature, Adult topics!
yeshivishsocrates -“The comparison to smoking or alcoholism is not the greatest one. Those substances are chemical and the addicton to them is a chemical one. The addiction to unsuitable material is not an addiction but a compulsion, electric shock therapy wont be nearly as efficienct as a supportive wife to help muster the will to have the self control.”
If you would have read my posts before posting your Chochmos -you would have found out that I already refuted this argument by quoting a profesional above in the NY Times. Don’t make yourself into a dolt. Look up the article before you respond.
“As to your various assumptions about my occupation, you have no idea from what walk of life i hail or how i spend my time,”
And I honestly don’t care.
“if i was in a decent yeshiva, it wouldnt be bein hazmanim yet anyway.”
Total falsehood. My son goes to a pretty decent Yeshiva and it’s Bain Hazmanim.
ROB – I personally believe in Kollel, but right now with the influx of Bochurim coming to YWN Bain Hazmanim to post their pseudo-intelligence – I’m starting to wonder. Perhaps there are too many guys sitting and learning all day? What happenned to 10 Battlanim? They really need to stop all this vacation – Yom Tovim, summer, etc. If the Yeshiva world wants to consider themselves as Working in Torah, then learn as much as a worker works – no Baal Habus gets so much vacation from work.
yeshivishsocrates – Just curious. Do you even know who Socrates was?
“Oy veh, Professional help means nothing,”
Right, because you say so. And your the expert because why?
“i dont know who you are or what your background is in these matters but i doubt its one of much experience.”
So what is your experience? Being online and blogging all day?
I won’t even be Choshet where you are going that you have sooo much experience.
“The issue at hand, terrible and devastating as it may well be is not one which requires help.”
Nonsense.
“This does not mitigate the severity of the issue but there are thousands upon thousands of people who have experienced these issue or who are experiencing these issues who will tell you unequivocally that whilst it may be an overwhelming and all consuming issue, it is not one which can be helped with anti addiction treatments.”
Right. Just like the alcoholic will say I’m not a drunk and even if I do drink a little bit -no shrink will be able to help me.
Or the smoker will say -I’m gonna stop right after I get married -I don’t need no professional help.
This is the problem with Bain Hamzmanim. Kids come here looking for some fun. But what they don’t realize – is that Adults come here all the time looking for solutions for real problems.
Hey kids, you want some Letzonus? Go Troll at some white-supremacist site and blog there and I’m sure you’ll have a ball.
The yeshivos should cut Bain Hazmanim to 5 days during the summer, just so the Bochurim can go home and visit their parents.
dhl144 -Yes, CHEMED in Lakewood is one of the clinics that have reduced rates. They have a few therapists, but are very booked up.
Syag Lchochma -“Which is also fine, since you aren’t marrying my daughter anyway.”
Well, would you consider me? When you respond, remember the line under your SN! No LH, please.
PBA -“I don’t agree, however, with your absurd conclusion that everyone who looks at pornography is suffering from that addiction.”
Really? Stop putting words in my mouth. I never said that. S/o Frum who does this once in awhile is Not addicted, but just Oiver an Issur. Most Frum people who are caught up with this are addicted.
Mods – Can you post the title and where the article is?
The New York Times
June 5, 2012
The D.S.M. Gets Addiction Right
By HOWARD MARKEL
Ann Arbor, Mich.
yeshivishsocrates -“Finally, is this is a discussion room and not a novel, the only way for your husband to emerge from this issue, note the lack of the term addiction,”
Yes, your opinions along with PBA’s, amongst others, is why people Should Not bring their problems here.
“is if you work together, as a couple to strengthen his resolve against this, the most fierce yetzer horah of our generation. Therapy, pills and preventative measures all have their uses but here, its simply misdirected.”
I’m not against Mussar, but that only works for prevention. Once s/o is caught up with this, they need Professional Mental help!
PBA -“Men who look at pornography are not suffering from an addiction. Therefore, any anti-addictive cures are stupid, useless, and probably harmful. Using the 12 step program to fight something which is not an addiction is retarded.
I define addiction as when you do something for reasons other than the regular reason.
You might like my definition, and you might not. Psychologists can’t really agree on a definition, but mine seems fairly rational, and a well regarded frum psychologist agreed with me when I discussed it with her.”
You’re a classic example of -“A little knowledge is dangerous.”
Yes, there is a definition of internet addiction, but the wheels of this new definition are churning slowly. You should have kept your mouth quiet because this isn’t the place (YWN) to have philosophical discussions about everything. Tell your Frum Shrink to keep up with the latest as you will see.
People come here with real problems and are seeking real solutions. All you did was throw a monkey wrench into the solutions here for this problem.
Yes, if s/o in the Frum community has an internet problem, the best ones to solve this are Shrinks who deal with this.
And now I’m going to respond to your post. I really wouldn’t waste my time, but all the ignorant people here will believe your posts. This is one of the things some people did at the Asifa -they just called these addicts Goyim, but didn’t offer any real solutions. A filter/recorder is Not a real solution.
I won’t post the whole article, but you’ll see that this internet addiction will be soon classified as an Addiction:”
sorry, we can’t post cut and pasted articles for liability reasons.
Mod-42 -“It sometimes bothers me to see yeshiva/kollel guys spending hours on Friday night or Shabbos afternoon reading through the frum newspapers and magazines when they could be learning.”
It’s not their fault. They have to do something when they can’t blog on YWN!
1st timer -“Yes, tried all the others, medications, washes, cleanses……, without significant results. Accutaine had almost immediate good results, but now in hindsight, the side effects were not worth it.”
Your Taanos on your doc is ridiculous. Noone knows who the guy that’s gonna get the side effects are. This drug is the last resort for people who have horrible acne than can leave you disfigured for life. It has worked wonders for many. Nowadays they have newer treatments for acne, including laser therapy besides all the old stuff. Make sure you use a Dermatologist that’s up on the latest.
As far as your joint pain, you might want to see a specialist called a Rheumatologist. These people are the ones that can help you. G-luck.
PBA -“Re: Guardyoureyes.
That website is about addictions. Men who look at pornography usually do not have an addiction, the same way men who drink beer usually do not have an addiction. It is a natural, normal–and assur–thing to do.
Look at this this way: 99% of non-religious men look at pornography; they are not suffering from an addiction.”
Now this could be just one of your trolls, but I’m not sure -so I’ll respond. Where did you get your knowledge of what an addiction is? I didn’t know you’re an expert in psychology along with everything else. I’m not going to get into a back and forth (at least I don’t want to) but I’ll just say this. Just like beer drinking can easily become an addiction and there are many whom are addicted which are called alcoholics, so too with the internet. So this is another fallacy going around the Frum community -the only ones that can help you with internet problems are Frum therapists. While it is preferable to use Frum therapists for a lot of different reasons, it’s pure nonsense to say that noone can be addicted to the internet by Goyim because they don’t think there is anything wrong. They can be addicted even if there isn’t a problem per se looking a few times, just like the beer drinker who keeps drinking and has an alcohol issue. This internet addiction is best treated by Mental Health professionals. Perhaps because of the ignorance and false rumors we have in the Frum community, this is why seeking Mental Help is so Stigmatized!
Bustercrown -“Does anyone know of any addiction counselors in the n.y. Area?”
The most professional resource in the Frum community for Mental Health is Relief org. Their website is http://www.reliefhelp.org
Email: [email protected]
I just researched Guard your eyes org. It seems they mean well, but they are not in place of therapy. I guess their articles and forums are for those who absolutely refuse to go to therapy. It seems their purpose is more of a B’dieved than a L’chatchilla for Internet addiction. IMO it seems like s/o trying to get help from these self-help books. Sometimes they work, but mostly not.
1st timer -“Why do dermatologist push accutaine as the wonder drug?
Accutaine was never forced but it was highly recommended.”
Just curious, before he/she recommended Accutaine did they have you on the other Meds first?
ohr chodesh -“There are many overpriced therapists who bear responsibility of many gitin as well as shattered families. Their “training” is that divorce is simply another “alternative” that their “client” ought to consider if it would make them feel better. Then they often jump on unnecessarily pushing the divorce “alternative”.”
You sure have a lot of accusations -how about backing this up with some proof? Although I’ll grant you that there definitely are incompetent shrinks, just like there are incompetent docs, but by & large most are Competent!
“The “training” therapists have makes them no better or more qualified than many people without that kind of “training”.”
Utter nonsense. Do you go to your neighbor for medical care? Do you go to your Rosh Yeshiva if you need surgery?
I wouldn’t even respond to this post, but in our day & age some readers believe anything they read. So I felt I must answer your post!
Toi -“believe me, im very close to a number of extrememly qualified chosson and kallah teachers, and i know theyve saved marriages from these problems.”
Not to knock the teachers that you know, but why are they more qualified than s/o with a degree? Anybody can save a marriage, but that doesn’t mean people should go running to them. If you personally know s/o that gives good Marriage advice -then you can go to them personally, but you can’t send others to them. This would be akin to telling people – go to alternative medicine guys instead of their MDs because you’ve had good experience with them.
The Gov. issues licenses for a reason!
wholewheat -“Who can afford it? The expense is prohibitive. Usually experience is commensurate with price. Is there any solution – like therapy gemachs or something?”
There are Mental Health clinics in the Frum community that provide free or reduced rates. Also some Bikur Cholims will pay for their communities Mental Health, but not all.
But I agree that there needs to be more done in the way of helping poor people receive help. Is there any Gvir out there that wants to start a Frum org. for this?
We have two orgs. to help people have kids (A Time, Bonai olam), how about one that pays Medical & Dental & Psychological help for poor people? Most of the Frum clinics that exist aren’t totally free for those without insurance. Some people can’t even afford reduced rates. It’s the 9 days -I know some of you reading this can afford to start something like this -so about doing some Ahavas Chinum to combat the Sinas Chinum that exists?!?!
toi -“go to an acclaimed chosson or kallah teacher who deals with these matters. theyre way more involved then a rov can be, and they sometimes can be the therapist, too.”
This IMHO, is worse than going to a Rov. All the C/K teachers that I know are just regular people who teach the Halachos.
A therapist who deals with addictions or a Rov (there are very few) that deal with these types of issues are the ones to go to.
Did you know that even MSW’s actually had to go to school for many years to get where they are now? Most are highly qualified.
What qualifications do C/K teachers have?
repharim -“No therapist is going to fix this problem for you. They are not magic pills and they actually rarely help. I know several people who have gone to therapists, not a single one of them told me anything good that came out of it other than, “maybe” it helped.”
While it’s true that therapy is No magic pill, most of the time it does help. Because it didn’t help a few of your friends means it doesn’t work on most people? Perhaps your friends don’t want it to help? You can only help people who want to change, not those who don’t.
The same thing happens in medicine. People tell you the antibiotic didn’t work. What they don’t tell you is that they stopped taking it early before the duration ended that they were supposed to take it. This is human nature -to blame the failure on something or s/o else, instead of themselves. When your dealing with Mental/emotional issues this rationalization -that it’s not them – is even more common!
Englishman -“I have to agree that many therapists can destroy a marriage and family.”
Absolute dishonesty. Can you even name one, let alone many that done this?
repharim -“You are the *best* person to intervene. You must get his trust back. Explain to him that he lied and really hurt your trust, explain to him that you understand that he gave in to his evil inclination and that you are there to help him. Don’t be stupid and avoid it until it eats your marriage inside out.”
I see no reason for her to say anything to him, if she doesn’t want to.
“Don’t be stupid and listen to these idiots who tell you to send him to a psychologist- THAT alone could destroy your marriage from the shame of knowing that you told other people.”
You have Not yet arrived in the 21st century. If the marriage will end after seeing a Proper good therapist -then this is probably the best thing. You and others like you, further Stigmatize going for Mental Health care in the Frum community.
“If you are not strong enough to do this yourself then you do something even better – install the filter on the computer, password it – tell him that you are installing it for the children. If he asks you for the password counter his question with asking him why he needs it. Obviously he will make up a legit site to go to and just tell him that if he needs to go to a site you will be more than happy to help him – but under no circumstance should you give him the password. Don’t ever let him watch you type it in, don’t make the password anything he will ever figure out. Check on the computer occasionally that the software is installed – you never know because he could uninstall it. IF he does uninstall it – the only thing you can do at this point is tell him the truth and do it nicely, calmly, understandingly and he will thank you in the long run.”
While, I’m not per se against your Eitza, it most probably wouldn’t work. It could work, if he does this only once in awhile. If a person is truly addicted, the spouse Will Not be able to stop the addiction. There are many ways to skin a cat -when there’s a will -then there’s a way. He could just go elsewhere outside the house, even if she managed to stop it totally in the house. You are totally ignorant about how Mental Health and Medical Prof deal with addictions. Let me give you an example -your Eitza is as likely to work as s/o who wants their spouse to stop smoking or drinking and decides the best way to do this is to hide the pack or the bottle. Does any Mature person think this will really stop the person’s addiction?
Buster -“It was all very helpful but the main problem is I was tolls by a very prominent gadol not to tell my husband what I found on his co outer because he will be so filled with feeling of shame that he will see now way out but leaving the marriage.”
I’m not going to argue with the Godol like some posters here did.
To me this isn’t your job (discussing where he is going on the Net with him). Quite frankly, you have to get him into therapy. Make an appt. for him and tell him simply -“I made an appt. for you with so and so because you are addicted to the Net and if you don’t go -I am leaving.”
But you must be prepared to act upon your threat. Empty threats do more harm than good. Personally, I think spouses should do this for other addictions too, like smoking – instead of making excuses for them.
Is the guy “Crazy” for going to these places on the Net? No. Does the spouse have to just “let it be” and ignore what’s happenning? No. G-luck.
choppy -“Speak to your family Rov. Speaking to a Rov is most vital. And if, and only if, it is necessary to see a therapist, make sure you vet the therapist with the Rov. Too many therapists can do a lot more damage than good.”
I disagree. Obvious from a lot of Rabbonim’s view from the Asifa -these guys are just Goyim. How would going to most Rabbonim do anything besides cause a divorce?
Therapy, except for possibly a tiny amt. of Rabbonim is the only solution.
GAW -“How about someone who speaks Lashon Hara occasionally but tries to stop? Talks during Davening?”
Good point. Our generation has taken every Nisayon and put it in black and white terms. You eat Traif once in awhile -“You’re a Goy”! You look at inappropriate things – “You’re a Goy”!
You speak LH -“Ok, we’ll look the other way!” You smoke -“Ok, we’ll look the other way!” I could go on and on -there are many examples.
Now, I’m not going into why we do this here -this alone is an extremely big topic -perhaps rooted in Sinas Chinum.
My point here is that whether it’s smoking or whether it’s looking at inappropriate things, by and far most Frum people do this because of some underlying psych issue. The leaders have Not even begun to deal with this issue, let alone remove the Stigma that the Frum community has against people seeking Mental Health help!
Rsoz – One of the reasons the Maschiach of Lakewood was one of the organizers of the Asifa is because e/o who caught anyone (spouse, friend, etc.) looking at improper things went running to him screaming about it.
The point of my post is Not that these people shouldn’t seek help either by a Rov (if the Rov can handle psych issues) or by a therapist, but why has Shmiras Eneyim become the scorge of the Frum world? I don’t think this has anything to do with Frumkeit because when was the last time a spouse went running to a Maschiach screaming -“All my spouse does all day is speak LH”?
I never heard anyone do this yet and some people just speak LH all day and n/o cares.
I think that a spouse thinks some sort of ineptness as the reason behind this problem. They think somehow they are at fault. Whether this sometimes can be the case, it most definitely isn’t always the case. So in a way, making an Asifa and screaming about it – might stop some people, in others there is a psych issue going on by both spouses. In one spouse, there is the addiction. And in the other there is the inadequacy. So if people only get from the Asifa that this is a Frum issue – there might be an increase in marital discord and subsequently divorce.
I think by and far most cases of internet problems are rooted in psych problems and we need to address this. How about getting mental health prof. to see people in every Frum community with this problem for free (pro-bono)? I think putting Jewish money into this aspect is worth more than what they are doing with the money -Ichud Kehillos setting up filter/internet solutions in every community. This would do more to solve the problem than people getting up on their soap-box screaming -“Shaigetz!”