Forum Replies Created
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No One Mourns The Wicked -I sincerely hope there are no non jews reading this thread. The blatent lack of appreciation, respect and pride for our country is overwelming. IMO, the national anthem as well as hatikvah should have been sang at the Siyum. We live in a country of peace & are allowed to practice our religion freely.”
There is absolutely no reason to play the National Anthem, even if we have to have Hakoras Hatov. And this quote from the first page is right on the money:
“BaalHabooze
The National Anthum??!
Mayhaychi taysi?? If you say it’s a din that’s toluy in a large gathering, is the National Anthum sung before a circus? before a movie? before a concert? before, I don’t know, a priest delivers his sermon? No!
So you’ll say it’s a din in the Stadium?! But that’s not true either, because there are plenty of concerts there with a packed crowd and there’s no Anthum sung!”
“Those who are allowed to learn torah in Israel whilst the IDF defends the land owe much to these brave men and women.”
I’m not going to discuss this aspect of Hakoras Hatov to the Medina here -I’ve had this discussion before.
But even if you hold all Jews in EY have to have Hakoras Hatov to the Medina, what does this have to do with Jews living in the USA?
apushatayid -“It should be pointed out that the moshol is coming from the vantage point of non jews. Their standards of proper and modesty are far different from ours.”
It’s not a Moshol.
“As an aside, men wore wigs as part of their proper attire while in the kings courtyard. Should we adopt that standard today?”
What does mens’ dress have to do with womens’ Tznius?
computer777 -“When I say your “so called logical argument”, I was referring to your argument about women doing chessed instead.”
You can say as many times as you want that you get to pick what Mitzvos to do and it’s your choice, but we have Halacha and Halacha dictates priorities.
“As for your argument about woman learning out of fear and awe which cannot be done during “relax time”, I disagree with you, but don’t have time to explain at the moment.”
You could disagree as much as you want, but it’s not me who is defining how a person has to learn, it’s the Torah.
If you can’t learn this way, then you shouldn’t be learning. A male, even if he can’t learn this way, he still has to learn, even if the learning is B’dieved. A woman has no Chiyuv to learn -so if they can’t do it right – they shouldn’t do it at all!
OOmis -“You are correct, but I would remind you that if you look at the mode of dress of many young women (and men) in Kings’ courtyards of long ago, you would likely not consider those fancy outfits to be particularly tzniusdig. But that is the PROPER way they dressed to see the King.”
It seems you are trying to use Litzonus to be Docheh the Mussar. Perhaps you are refering to paintings that you’ve seen. I’m sure those paintings are just from that period of time. If you go back in time even further -I’m sure all dress, even not in Kings’ courtyards was very Tzinus.
computer777 -“Health: I don’t have the time nor desire to argue with your so called “logical” argument.”
Wrong. You do have the time & you do have the desire, but you don’t have any logical answer.
Anyways – Don’t become Frey in spite of human beings. There are people who don’t know how to give Mussar -so they end up doing to you what you described. I’ve talked about how to give Mussar properly in many topics. These people should Not do what they do to you -either they should learn how to give you Mussar or ignore you totally. But sometimes you might be reading into their reactions. Sometimes people will do a double-take when they see a “Frum” woman who isn’t dressed Tzinus, but it isn’t meant as a put down.
Mussar has to uplift the person to correct their wrong doings.
All I can say to you is remember – A Bas Yisroel is a princess. If you wouldn’t walk around the King’s courtyard dressed the way you do -you shouldn’t dress like that in public. First realize how great you are and then you’ll always want to do the right thing!
far east -“health- im seeing a double standard over here. Maybe you should re-read your posts”
I see no such thing. If you mean honestly, tell me which part you’re not understanding and I’ll explain it to you.
Avi K -“For that matter, why aren’t there prayers for the Federal and State governments in shuls even though they are in all siddurim. In Britain they say a prayer for the Queen.”
It isn’t the Minhag to say them in most Shuls!
“As for “HaTikva”, it is the most appropriate for Jewish events. True, Rav kook preferred the “Shir HaMaalot” we sing when there is no Tachanun but “HaTikva” became the minhag.”
Now I’m not going to get into an argument about the Medina and Zionism again with you, but this post is totally Illogical.
I know you believe that Zionism is Al Pi Torah for EY, but what does Zionism have to do with Jewish events? Yes, in the US many Jewish schools who were pro the Medina sang these Zionist songs at their events. But to claim that it’s the most appropriate for Jewish events is ludicrous. Are you saying you can’t be a Good Jew outside of Israel if you aren’t a Zionist? I think this is the farthest extreme I’ve ever heard out of a Zionist’s Mouth.
Did you ever belong to the IDF? If not, or if you aren’t there now, perhaps you should join/rejoin? For some “Frum” Jews the IDF is a step up!
computer777 -“Health: A woman is allowed to decide what mitzvah to do (supposing as you stated if her learning is indeed a mitzvah). No, she doesn’t have to instead go to a nursing home to feed elderly instead, or go help others with housework. When was the last time you did that? And don’t tell me that you are required to learn, so you need not do those mitzvos. You spend a lot of time online, is it not more important to do such chessed?”
You either didn’t understand my post or you’re deliberately ignoring it. Yes, men have to do Chessed. Being on the Net isn’t in place of doing Mitzvos and noone thought this and you knew this! So why aren’t men running all day to do Chessed? Because they don’t have to stop their learning for this Mitzva because there are others that are doing it. OTOH, women can Not claim their learning takes precedence over doing Chessed, even if you hold it’s a Mitzva! The only way they could say I want to learn now, like Daf Yomi, if there wasn’t any Chessed to do. And in our day and age, there is no such thing as no Chessed to do!
“If a woman wants to learn gemorah (provided she is allowed to), then she can indeed learn after she fills her other obligations, even if it’s late at night, or maybe on Shabbos, or whenever it is she finds the time.
Why if a woman goes bowling, swimming, or other activity, it’s all fine, but if she decides to learn Torah Shebal Peh (provided she’s allowed to), it all of the sudden becomes, she should find another mitzvah to do instead?”
Again you either didn’t understand my post or you’re deliberately ignoring it. The question you had was why can’t you learn Gemorah during the woman’s downtime acc. to those who hold it’s Mutter for them to learn Torah SheBaal Peh? And the answer is -that yes you’re allowed to have downtime in this world, but learning Gemorah wouldn’t help you do this. Why? Because learning Torah has to be done in fear and awe, etc. So if learning Gemorah is like reading a book to you -then this is Not the way you’re allowed, even if you’re a man, to learn Torah! So find something else to do to relax. You mentioned some activities and I mentioned others previously for those who feel that the activities you mentioned aren’t allowed.
computer777 -“If it’s a mitzvah, why does it bother you? It’s not your business which mitzvos they pick. Even if you think it’s better to do something else with their time, it’s not your place to critisize.”
Your response seems to be an emotional one, not a logical one. But even so I’ll respond with logic.
If you have been reading the posts, you’d have seen that I hold that women are Not allowed to learn Gemmora.
This post above was going to s/o who holds that they are.
As far as which to pick (Mitzvos) -I’ll reply simply that even if their learning is the same as men, it wouldn’t be so simple that they can say -Well I’m learning now -so I can’t do other Mitzvos. The Halacha is if there are others to do these Mitzvos, then you can do learning instead. If there aren’t, then the other Mitzvos take precedence. There definitely is a demand for people to feed sick people and to help needy people in their homes. Whether this demand requires that we have to take guys out of Yeshiva to do this – is doubtful. But for women to say -“I’m learning now so I don’t have to do these things of Chessed” -would be ridiculous.
Their learning would not take precedence over these other Mitzvos!
“Additionally, they may be learning after they worked hard a whole day, and this is their relaxing time before they go to bed.”
Again, even if this were a man he isn’t allowed to learn like this. The Torah requires s/o to learn with many conditions, eg. with fear and awe, etc. You can’t curl up with a Gemmora like you do with a book. OTOH, some people are too Frum to go on the Net, or read Goyishe books or even Ch’vs watch TV/Movies to relax. (I personally am not getting into whether all these things are permitted or not.) So what can these people do to relax? These people now have available Jewish newspapers, mags, etc. which many people are using for their relaxation time.
GAW – Thanks.
Sam -“And I know a lot of girls who learn. Many are also feminists, but they don’t learn to be “equal” to boys. A lot of them learn because they see beauty in Torah and have an unquechable thirst for knowledge and Emes. That’s what I see all the time in girls who come through NCSY and the like. They’re not learning for the wrong reasons.”
I’d like to repeat part of a post of mine from the other topic:
“Why are these women looking to do Mitzvos that they aren’t Mechuyav in? (If it’s a Mitzva btw, not an Issur.) They can’t find any Mitzvos where they are Mechuyav in? Here’s one that they are – go to a hospital or nursing home and help feed the patients. You can even find enough Frum ladies that need this that you can be busy with this 24/7.
I’m sick of these Women’s libs and then covering it up with religiousity!”
Or help some needy family with housework and/or childrearing.
mommamia22 -“What occurs in the MO community more than others??
That they were not really frum?”
Some are and some aren’t.
“That they send them to orthodox schools because it’s the social thing?”
Some do it for this reason.
“I’m surprised that you would say such a thing. It’s a blanket statement about an entire community that has no bearing on reality.”
Don’t be surprised and it wasn’t a blanket statement about every MO guy.
“With all due respect, you couldn’t possibly have known the MO community first hand if that’s what you think.”
And why not?
“Within the MO community there are many different levels of yiddishkeit.”
Noone said differently.
“Mainstream MO do not send to yeshiva because it’s the “in thing”. They send their kids to yeshiva as any frum family would to educate their kids in Torah and yiddishkeit.”
I don’t know who are you are refering to when you say “Mainstream”, but I stand by my comments.
“Just check out the Teaneck community and you’ll see what I mean. They have tons of yeshivas, shuls, shiurim, etc. Those families could’ve moved anywhere to fit in.”
I wasn’t talking about Teaneck -I was talking about the West Side.
MR – The question is how Frum they were in the first place. It’s highly unlikely that they were really Frum. This occurs in the MO community more than others. Some raise their kids with sending them to Orthodox schools and colleges because it’s the social thing, but religion is Not really part of their lives.
Because otherwise the OTD rate would be a small %, not 100% of all those that moved to the West Side.
GeshmakMan -“I 100% agree, I remember living alone and hoping the phone would ring! The worst “invite” is “oh, you’re always invited, call anytime”, b/c that is an empty invitation!”
While I understand your point -there is the other side too. People are very wrapped up with their own lives – so out of sight
– out of mind. Right or wrong, this is the reality. The first time I was single -I called people up to invite myself. Now that I’m single again -I know how to put together a meal myself so if I feel like it – I eat at home – if I feel like eating out -I’ll invite myself somewhere. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet. I admit sometimes it feels uncomfortable, but most of the time I’m used to it. The main thing in life is to try to be independent. This doesn’t mean only single people, also married ones. Of course we do depend on others, but the less we need to -the better.
mommamia22 -“I wonder if the UWS is the primary influence of people becoming less frum or if they’re disillusioned with life (meaning, before they actually move, their yiddishkeit and emunah have already become weaker) and then they go to the UWS to seek social comfort and peer support.”
Both. It’s a vicious circle/cycle. First they become disillusioned and then they follow the crowd.
“It is VERY hard to be more mature (age wise) and single in the frum community. There really is no chevra other than the UWS that can minimize their suffering and the feeling that others view them as having issues contributing to their taking longer to marry.”
Yes, another issue in the Frum community that’s been swept under the carpet. But I’ve heard Passiac is now a community with a lot of singles and it seems to be a Frummer crowd than the West Side.
kfb -“Should I even try to help my poor friend?”
This must be very emotional for you, but before you invest time you must have a game plan. There are many issues going on with your friend. Does he even respect your opinion? Do you have any way to help him with his family problems? More likely than not, by the time he got to this stage, it’s too late. Can you get him into see s/o who deals with OTD people? Speak to an Odom Godol before you do anything.
Yitay -No, she should Not keep learning -it’s Ossur for women to learn Torah Shebaal Peh. Read the other topics on this.
letmyvoicebeheard -“Most of us ended up in detox centers, and rehabs, sometimes more than once. And a few of us passed away from drugs.
All we ever were searching for was acceptance.”
Now for some this might be true -for others it’s not. There are a lot of reasons people end up addicted. Almost all addicts feel that it’s not their fault. Sometimes it’s not and sometimes it is.
But whatever the reason, there is no excuse to remain this way.
I’ve worked with addicts and you can break free, if you really want to. You can do this with at least a three-pronged approach.
Get a medical professional that deals with addicted substances. If for example, you’re addicted to Narcs, find s/o who prescribes Subloxone. Most Detox centers are still in the caveman times giving out Methadone, which isn’t too effective. The next step is to join either something like NA or AA. Also going to a therapist who deals with addicts is very helpful. And third or fourth (if you’re gonna do everything till now) is till leave all friends that you have now behind. It’s time for a new set of friends. This is because this will help you break the psych part of the addiction. You are Not abandoning them. You are doing this now to help yourself. You’ll return to be a counselor to them after you have been clean for a few years; and you’ll teach them how to do what you’ve done. G-luck and take my advice very seriously -your life might depend on it!
PS.- If this doesn’t apply to you now -you can show it to others that it does apply to.
Shraga18 -“How do you know he didn’t learn DY?”
That part of my post came from the impression from other posts on different sites. It’s quite possible Choppy is right. I have been out of that part of town for quite some years. When I was there Rabbi Shia Krupenia gave the Daf Yomi in the Yeshiva for as long as I can remember, probably like 20 -25 years or more. If Choppy knows that R. Kotler started giving such a Shiur either first or second -hand knowledge, then he would be able to answer my question.
And even if he is correct, they skipped over Rabbonim who have been giving Daf Yomi Shiurim for years and years and years.
choppy -“Rav Kotler WAS mesayim. He gave a Daf Yomi shiur the entire 7.5 year cycle that just completed.”
And where does he give this Shiur and what are the times?
Mod 42 -I agree with you. I would have gone even though I’m at least as right wing as Satmar, if s/o would have bought me a ticket.
Now I’m surprised that they asked s/o who doesn’t learn Daf Yomi to be Mesayem. I read a little grumbling by some on different sites, but most people for some reason don’t care. I wonder why?
I plan on learning in shiur from s/o who is not living anymore.
simcha613 – “The Rama is clear that a woman is obligated to learn the practical things. The S”A however opens up that they get sechar for learning, but they don’t get as much sechar as a man because they aren’t obligated to do it! Obviously he is not talking about the practical areas, because they are obligated to learn those things and would get the same sechar as a man! The S”A meant she gets sechar for those areas of Torah where she isn’t obligated to learn like the non practical areas of Torah Sheba’al Peh, but it’s not allowed to be taught to her. How do we reconcile these two statements? I stand by what I said before. It can’t be imposed on women in general but a woman who is lishmah can learn and will receive sechar.”
I wouldn’t expect you to admit that you are wrong. Since you don’t understand the S’A you decided to throw out the part of Tiflos and say it only applies Shelo Lishma. This is totally ridiculous. If there was a Mitzva for them to learn everything then it wouldn’t make a difference whether it was Lishma or not.
Ever hear of Mitoch Shelo Lisma Boh Lishma. I know what you’ll say -I decided this doesn’t apply to women.
Your agenda (Negious) is causing you to Krum up the Halacha of S’A. Me personally your Kashos on that Simon of S’A aren’t that great to change the Poshut Pshat. But for you that thinks these Kashos are so great we have to say women are allowed and get a Mitzva for learning everything I’ll give you an answer. On the other topic a poster brings down the Sefer Chassidim and he says even though you can teach them the Halachos that apply to them, don’t go to deep. So you can simply say when the S’A says they get Sechar for learning it means learning things that applies to them and they get Sechar even if they learn deep. So you have no Rayah that the S’A permitted women learning All Torah Shebaal Peh!
Kozov -“Sam, there’s obviously a big difference between that and getting into a position he knows he is going to die from within a year.”
If the Gemora isn’t Melamed Zecus -why are you? Who says they thought they were going to die also? Maybe their Gaava told them they deserve the position? I know and learnt about a lot of Jews who are in positions of power and don’t/didn’t deserve it. This occurs in every generation.
Sam2 -“Health: While I can’t say that that’s not Pashut P’shat in the M’chaber, it is against the Drisha, who at the very least is a strong enough support for anyone to rely upon (especially as we do have the “Ma’aseh Rav” of B’ruriah, Rashi’s daughters, and several other women throughout the generations of the Rishonim).”
I discussed this in the other topic. See the topic called –
“Words from an ex IDF solider for Yom HaZikaron”!
As far as being Somieach on the Drisha because I believe the S’A holds it’s Ossur – if you have a Rov that holds like him, i.e. -YU, then fine. If you are mainstream Yeshivish -you can’t just hold this way on your own -you’d need a Rov to be Somieach on.
simcha613 -“Health and Choppy- why would they receive reward for doing something that is clearly assur? Can you give me another example of something that is clearly assur but the violater actually receives reward instead of punishment? If the Shulchan Aruch doesn’t want women to learn, why would the Shulchan Aruch tell us that they receive sechar for doing it (this is the first line in that halachah that Health conveniently forgot to quote)?”
I already responded to your “Kashos” over there.
See the topic called –
“Words from an ex IDF solider for Yom HaZikaron”!
I’m only bringing up this topic because of the other topic regarding a woman learning Daf Yomi.
simcha613 -“So you have to reconcile the beginning of that halachah that they have sechar with the end that it is not allowed to be taught to them. If you say that there is an issur for women to learn Gemara, why would S”A add the part that they receive sechar? What does that add practically?
So, you could argue that it adds nothing practically, and the S”A was just saying that theoretically they receive sechar but Chazal made an issur for them to learn. IMHO, if that were the case, S”A should have left it out. Are there any other Mitzvos that women are theoretically allowed to do and probably receive sechar for it but Chazal assured it, and the S”A told us all that? Does the S”A say that women receive sechar for wearing tzitizs or tefilin, but Chazal said they aren’t allowed to?
The way I’ve learned it is that a woman is allowed to learn Gemara and she receives sechar for it, as long as she genuinely wants to learn for lishmah reasons. However it cannot be taught to her, in other words it cannot be imposed on her. The issur is on the male (or female) teacher, not the female learner. The teacher has the responsibility to make sure that she wants to do it for the right reasons, and only then can she be taught.
Just to clarify- the reason why I understand that when the S”A says one is not allowed to teach his daughter Torah means it cannot be imposed on her, is because assuming that a woman is allowed to learn Gemara (which would explain why the S”A chose to tell us that they receive sechar for learning), I don’t think the S”A means they are allowed to learn but they are not allowed to be taught.
How can you learn without being taught?”
Exactly; so both are Ossur! There are a lot of Krumme things in your post that I’d like to point out. What I’m basically saying is that the S’A would not hold like the Drisha/Prisha!
“So, you could argue that it adds nothing practically, and the S”A was just saying that theoretically they receive sechar but Chazal made an issur for them to learn. IMHO, if that were the case, S”A should have left it out. Are there any other Mitzvos that women are theoretically allowed to do and probably receive sechar for it but Chazal assured it, and the S”A told us all that? Does the S”A say that women receive sechar for wearing tzitizs or tefilin, but Chazal said they aren’t allowed to?”
This paragraph makes sense, but Not your conclusion!
“The way I’ve learned it is that a woman is allowed to learn Gemara and she receives sechar for it, as long as she genuinely wants to learn for lishmah reasons.”
Well how do you know this woman will learn Lishma? It’s Ossur because of “Lo Plug”, unless the woman is “Borur” like “Bruria” that she can. And noone nowadays can claim that she is like her.
“However it cannot be taught to her, in other words it cannot be imposed on her. The issur is on the male (or female) teacher, not the female learner. The teacher has the responsibility to make sure that she wants to do it for the right reasons, and only then can she be taught.”
Here you agree that they are equal and I say it’s Ossur for both!
“So you have to reconcile the beginning of that halachah that they have sechar with the end that it is not allowed to be taught to them. If you say that there is an issur for women to learn Gemara, why would S”A add the part that they receive sechar? What does that add practically?”
This is where you start on your Krumme path. Obviously the S’A is saying about Sechar for a practical reason. Did it ever occur to you that there are times when it would be Mutter for a woman to learn and/or be taught Torah SheBaal Peh and them learning ALL Torah SheBaal Peh doesn’t have to be Mutter? An example would be Halachos that they have to know in order for them to keep the Mitzvos that they are required to keep. This doesn’t include Daf Yomi!
GAW -“No one taught it to her, she self-taught (or learned it on her own). Therefore, no Tiflus was taught.”
Your implication that the S’A would hold in such a case that it would be Mutter is wrong.
I’m quoting Joe here from another topic, only because I didn’t want to write the whole thing over myself:
“Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah siman 246 sif 6.
Shulchan Orach:
“tzivu chaza”l shelo yilmad adam es bito torah mipnei sherov hanashim ein da’atan michuvanos l’hislamed u’motzios divrei torah l’divrei havai l’phi anius da’atan, amru chaza”l kol hamilamed es bito torah k’ilu milamda tiflus”
So from S’A it comes out the problem is for them to learn it and therefore you can’t teach it to them -“u’motzios divrei torah l’divrei havai”. So the avg. woman can’t just learn Gemmora because it will come to “Hevel” (nothingness). There are exceptions to the rule, like Bruria and that’s why the S’A says “Rov”. But who nowadays can claim that they are on such a level and can learn Torah without the possibility of it turning into “Hevel” (nothingness)?!?!
Here is a comprehensive page on preventing Heat Illness:
(Drinking water alone without taking in electrolytes can be dangerous!)
Heat-Related Illnesses – Prevention
The following tips may help prevent a heat-related illness. Be aware of the symptoms of heat-related illnesses and the warning signs of dehydration.
Practice heat safety measures when you are physically active in hot weather. This is especially important for outdoor workers and military personnel. Avoid strenuous activity in hot, humid weather or during the hottest part of the day (between 10 a.m. and 4 p.m.). Use caution during your physical activity in the heat if you have health risks.
Drink plenty of water before, during, and after you are active. This is very important when it’s hot out and when you do intense exercise. Fluids such as rehydration drinks, juices, or water help replace lost fluids, especially if you sweat a lot.
Drink on schedule. Two hours before exercising, drink 24 fl oz (750 mL) of fluid. Drink 16 fl oz (500 mL) of fluid 15 minutes before exercising. Continue drinking 8 fl oz (250 mL) of fluid every 15 minutes while exercising.
Drink rehydration drinks, which are absorbed as quickly as water but also replace sugar, sodium, and other nutrients. Eat fruits and vegetables to replace nutrients.
Check your urine. Urine should be clear to pale yellow, and there should be a large amount if you are drinking adequately. You should urinate every 2 to 4 hours during an activity when you are staying properly hydrated. If your urine output decreases, drink more fluids.
Do not spend much time in the sun. If possible, exercise or work outside during the cooler times of the day. Wear lightweight, light-colored, loose-fitting clothing in hot weather, so your skin can cool through evaporation. Wear a wide-brimmed hat or use an umbrella for shade.
Stay cool as much as possible. Take frequent breaks in the shade, by a fan, or in air-conditioning. Cool your skin by spraying water over your body. Take a cool bath or shower 1 or 2 times a day in hot weather.
If you have to stand for any length of time in a hot environment, flex your leg muscles often while standing. This prevents blood from pooling in your lower legs, which can lead to fainting. To prevent swelling (heat edema), wear support hose to stimulate circulation while standing for long periods of time.
Do not drink caffeine or alcohol. They increase blood flow to the skin and increase your risk of dehydration.
Staying physically fit can help you acclimate a hot environment. Before you travel to or work in a hotter environment, use gradual physical conditioning. This takes about 8 to 14 days for adults. Children require 10 to 14 days for their bodies to acclimate to the heat. If you travel to a hot environment and are not accustomed to the heat, cut your usual outside physical activities in half for the first 4 to 5 days. Gradually increase your activities after your body adjusts to the heat and level of activity.
Be aware that when the outdoor humidity is greater than 75%, the body’s ability to lose heat by sweating is decreased. Other ways of keeping cool need to be used. The National Weather Service lists a heat index each day in the newspaper to alert people of the risk for a heat-related illness in relation to the air temperature and humidity of that day. Direct exposure to the sun can increase the risk of a heat-related illness on days when the heat index is high.
People who have had heatstroke in the past may be more sensitive to the effects of heat in the first few months following the illness, but they do not have long-term problems.
yeshivishsocrates -“Proofs in situations like these are meaningless. If i prove that someone succeeded in quitting the nocturnal adult entertainment through white knuckled perseverence, youd say it was in spite of the fact that he didnt seek help. If you prove that someone did quit with help, id just say that he could have also done it alone.”
I’m not looking for absolute proof. What I want from you is even one real case that this has worked and then we can argue about which way will be more successful. Without even one case of cold turkey – how do you know this is even a real possibility, not just a utopian theory?
choppy -“Health: Phone lines get their power from the phone company, not directly from the buildings electric company. And in all power outages I’ve had, the phones continued working. Including the big outages that cut electric power to the entire city and region. The phone continued working.”
And where did I say differently? If the electricity is cut to the main phone station relay area, then you’ll lose phone service.
Btw, just like you don’t usually lose phone service, you don’t lose cell service. The phone company supplies it’s own power to the cell towers.
Bustercrown -“As some here already know, I’m one of those In a bad marriage with a spouse whose addicted to Internet. He denies there’s a problem and refuses to get help. We had seval marriage counselors try to help, my spouse rejected all their advice as soon as it didn’t suit him. He made promises only to break them. I believe my spouse won’t get real help unless the kids and I leave him.”
Please read my posts in the other topic. Even though I’m divorced, I by no means am an expert. My field is medicine, not mental health. I did write over there that as a last resort s/o can give an ultimatum and if he doesn’t go to therapy -she should divorce him. I’m not going back on my words, but after reading your post carefully, I don’t think you’re at that stage yet.
“He denies there’s a problem and refuses to get help. We had seval marriage counselors try to help, my spouse rejected all their advice as soon as it didn’t suit him. He made promises only to break them.”
I understand that this is a very emotional thing that you are going through, but right here you are not being honest. There is a difference between refusing to get help and going to therapy and rejecting their advice. If the latter is what’s really going on, then there are a few options besides divorce.
One option is -not every therapist is suited for e/o. I’m not saying these therapists are incompetent, just sometimes people need a certain personality type in a therapist. Perhaps you need to try other therapists -for the right one?
Sometimes even when the therapist is suited to the client and they’re still not getting anywhere -it’s because additional help is needed. This help is taking medication. The person to see for this is a psychiatrist. A psychiatrist will evaluate the person to determine if meds are needed. This btw, is a common scenario -lots of people who are not improving in therapy, all of a sudden when the meds kick in – it’s like nite & day.
pool -“what do people think;
If one finds their wife unattractive (after being married for a short while) and it is causing their marriage to wither – is that grounds for divorce?”
You have just proved that there are people out there that think marriage is disposable. My point is Not whether you have to stay married to an unattractive spouse or not. It’s your whole way of thinkng. Almost all cases of marital problems are not clear cut about divorce. Professionals should make this decision with you.
So how could s/o ask if they find their spouse unattractive, is this grounds for divorce? The only question that should be is if they find their spouse unattractive, should they go for marital therapy?!
shmoolik 1 -“if we follow the literal text Lot and family left Sodom in the direction we know today as Jordan what would be latter Amon and Moav
what is referred to as the pillar of salt or Lot’s wife is on the wrong side of the Valley/”
Noone is interested in the truth because
1. You’re ruining the topic in the CR.
2. You’re ruining the tourist business for the tour operators
and the seminaries.
choppy -“Get an old (non-AC powered) phone.”
Phone lines can go down too. If it’s a widespread electrical outage, most likely there isn’t phone service either. The phone company uses a small amt. of electricity to run their lines.
Ctrl Alt Del – But who would you talk to? Very few people here in the CR are Hams. Does your family and friends have them? The Gov. doesn’t use Ham frequencies to alert people in emergencies. They use news outlets (Eg. Radio, TV, internet). If these are down -the cops go around with loud speakers to give anouncements.
If you don’t want to wait till they come to your neighbohood for the anouncement, buy a hand-held scanner. You’ll know what the emergency services are doing at the same time they find out what they’re doing. And the equip is a lot cheaper than Ham equip.
If you must have a talking option, consider FRS radios or CB radios, if the other party is not too far away, which are also cheaper than Ham equip.
yeshivishsocrates -“It seems that i havent said it enough times because youre still misunderstanding. At no point did i put the burden of responsibility on the wife. I feel for her and dont envy her plight. I merely maintain that the problem can be solved between them and professional intervention is an unnecessary measure.”
Yes, you keep repeating this, but do you have any proof that your
theory will work? Your conjecture will only place undue pressure on the spouse that she’ll start thinking that she has to solve this problem. It’s not her problem and she doesn’t have to solve it!
“I also stressed the importance of her being supportive and on his side in solving their shared problem.”
This line makes sense, even though it’s not exactly shared.
“She shouldnt oppose him and shouldnt make ultimatums which will put pressure on their relationship.”
While she shouldn’t oppose him & make ultimatums from the git-go, this is an effective last resort measure. She doesn’t have to try to sweet talk him into trying to cold turkey, because even if your theories might work on a few, it would be a very small amount. This small group that it might work on is not enough to tell e/o to try your method. Therapy will work on many. She should spend her energy trying to get him into therapy. Whether she can convince him herself to go or she can get s/o else like a Rov or family members to do it, is not really revelant.
If after all this he still won’t listen, then she should give him an ultimatum. The ultimatum should be either go to therapy or I’m outta here. An ultimatum to cold turkey or I’m gone is not a good idea, because most can’t stop on their own! (I posted a case above where this did work, but I don’t recommend this ultimatum.)
ohr chodesh -“Little you know: Interpersonal relationships is NOT a “mental health issue”. When you get into a fight with your friend, do you take him to a doctor (of mental health)? Same when you get into a fight with your spouse. You go to a talmid chochom with very much experience in Shalom Bayis issues. A therapist may also be recommended by said talmid chochom, if he deems so beneficial to the particulars of the situation. But even then one must be extremely cautious as towhich therapist one utilizes, as MANY are most capable of doing significantly more damage than good (partially as a result of their “training” based on secular lack of values towards the institution of marriage and partially as a result of their own inadequecies.)”
Your post makes sense, but I want to stress part of your post which you didn’t.
“You go to a talmid chochom with very much experience in Shalom Bayis issues.”
This is true, you can go to one. But what you fail to mention is that most Rabbonim are not like this. There are actually very few who have experience in Sholom Bayis. OTOH, even though there are incompetent therapists, by and far most will do good by their clients and try to steer them in the right direction!
Toi -“smoking cigarettes is not cause for divorce. you decry divorce as an obvious option for frum couples, then go on to say that smoking is severe enough of an issue to end a marriage. that is retarded.”
Struck a raw nerve, huh? If you have ever read my posts regarding smoking this post shouldn’t come as a surprise to you. I’ve been very vocal that a girl shouldn’t marry a guy who smokes. If s/o starts smoking after their marriage, the spouse should try to get him to quit. I’ve posted umteen times that this is done by a three-pronged approach. If he doesn’t want to really try, then she should use an ultimatum as a last resort. It can’t just be an empty threat.
Bustercrown -“I was told by a wonderful Frum therapist that people don’t even begin to realize the devastating effects of divorce on the children, and that unless there is actual abuse or infidelity or something equally as serious c”v, notch at the best course of action if you want to protect your children, is to try and work thru the problems and stay together. Ndivorce should be the very last option, as I said only in the case of severe, severe issues.”
While I agree with this statement, I’d include things like addiction as a severe issue. Of course, the couple should try as a team to get the addicted party to stop, but if all else fails – divorce is a reasonable option. Addiction can be smoking cigs, alcohol abuse, internet addiction, etc.
yeshivishsocrates -“Your supercilious and sanctimonious attitude is so inordinately offensive im surprised that any of your posts are not deleted. I keep stressing this and you persevere, this is not personal, i dont know you at all so i have no reason to be arguing on any plane other than the intellectual one. For some odd reason, you persist with your insecure denigration.”
I persist; but it doesn’t have anything to do with insecurity.
I just don’t like pseudo-intelligence. You have presented an argument based on a utopian world. Your gist is basically – “It’s the woman’s responsibilty to stop this.”
You have not even brought one real account/example where this has worked even one time, but you keep insisting that you are right.
If you want even a little bit of credence that anything you post is even remotely logical -how about bringining some proof?
“The fact that someone you know succeeded with an ultimatum is likely to be in spite of the fact that an ultimatum and probably not because of. Ultimatums are horrible ideas within relationships and promote division – not unity.”
You missed my point -an ultimatum isn’t the first thing you try, but if all else has failed, sometimes an ultimatum will work.
Ignoring his behavior, even not from a Frum point of view, is the worse thing for the marriage.
far east -“health- your nice little study on smoking is not comparable to an internet porn addiction. Smoking is a chemical addiction, while looking at bad things is a mental addiction (although i will give you that it is also chemical but not the same as smoking). Additionally, the subjects in your study didnt have a “next to nothing” chance of quitting, i believe it was more than 7 percent who did quit on their own. Considering smoking is the stronger addiciton, kal vchaomer i would assume more then 7 percent of people are able to quit the internet addiction on their own. Further study is definitely needed”
Maybe, I didn’t make myself clear. There are no studies about internet addiction regarding this that I know of, so I had to use smoking, even if they aren’t the same. The % wouldn’t be much more even though there isn’t a physical addiction. And 7% is next to nothing if you’re striving to close to 100% to stop addiction.
I trained a little bit with narcotic addiction and the physical addiction part is easy to cure -it’s the mental/psychological addiction that’s the hard part. The same would be true with internet addiction -that’s why I suggested getting professional help. This has a much greater chance at being successful than the spouse holding the guy’s hand and telling him -“C’mon, you can do it!”
Bar Shattya -“Segulah’s arent always logical but if you are worried you can drink smartwater which replenishes your electrolytes instead of washing them out”
A common misconception. You don’t need to replace/replenish something that isn’t missing! See the other post!