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DY -“I’m not saying it’s a stirah, I’m saying the R’ma would not be mattir bishul al y’dei aku”m, even l’tzorach gadol.”
The Diyuk is Not a Diyuk -so you can’t push that Pshat in the Rema. Nice try.
72 – I guess your kids had perfect behavior even when they were two. If you said to them -“Take this medicine” -they responded –
“Sir, yes Sir!”. What DID you do to them to instill such fear in them?
yenta -“health, you missed febrile seizures.”
First of all, I didn’t miss anything. The article comes from WebMD.
Second of all, you didn’t read the title of the article -“Types of Epilepsy”. Is febrile seizures a type of Epilepsy?
From WebMD:
“Types of Epilepsy
Epilepsy is the occurrence of sporadic electrical storms in the brain commonly called seizures. These storms cause behavioral manifestations (such as staring) and/or involuntary movements (such as grand mal seizures).
There are several types of epilepsy, each with different causes, symptoms, and treatments.
When making a diagnosis of epilepsy, your doctor may use one of the following terms: idiopathic, cryptogenic, symptomatic, generalized, focal, or partial. Idiopathic means there is no apparent cause. Cryptogenic means there is a likely cause, but it has not been identified. Symptomatic means that a cause has been identified. Generalized means that the seizures are involving the whole brain at once. Focal or partial means that the seizure starts from one area of the brain.
Major Types of Epilepsy
Types of Epilepsy Generalized Epilepsy Partial Epilepsy
Idiopathic (genetic causes) – Childhood absence epilepsy
– Juvenile myoclonic epilepsy
– Epilepsy with grand-mal seizures on awakening Others – Benign focal epilepsy of childhood
Symptomatic (cause unknown) or cryptogenic (cause unknown) – West syndrome
– Lennox-Gastaut syndrome
– Others
– Temporal lobe epilepsy
– Frontal lobe epilepsy Others
Idiopathic Generalized Epilepsy
In idiopathic generalized epilepsy, there is often, but not always, a family history of epilepsy. Idiopathic generalized epilepsy tends to appear during childhood or adolescence, although it may not be diagnosed until adulthood. In this type of epilepsy, no nervous system (brain or spinal cord) abnormalities other than the seizures have been identified as of yet. The brain is structurally normal on a brain magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scan.
People with idiopathic generalized epilepsy have normal intelligence and the results of the neurological exam and MRI are usually normal. The results of the electroencephalogram (EEG — a test which measures electrical impulses in the brain) may show epileptic discharges affecting the entire brain (so called generalized discharges).
The types of seizures affecting patients with idiopathic generalized epilepsy may include:
Myoclonic seizures (sudden and very short duration jerking of the extremities)
Absence seizures (staring spells)
Generalized tonic-clonic seizures (grand mal seizures)
Idiopathic generalized epilepsy is usually treated with medications. Some forms of this condition that may be outgrown, as is the case with childhood absence epilepsy and a large number of patients with juvenile myoclonic epilepsy.
Idiopathic Partial Epilepsy
Idiopathic partial epilepsy begins in childhood (between ages 5 and 8) and may have a family history. Also known as benign focal epilepsy of childhood (BFEC), this is considered one of the mildest types of epilepsy. It is almost always outgrown by puberty and is never diagnosed in adults.
Seizures tend to occur during sleep and are most often simple partial motor seizures that involve the face and secondarily generalized (grand mal) seizures. This type of epilepsy is usually diagnosed with an EEG.
Symptomatic Generalized Epilepsy
Symptomatic generalized epilepsy is caused by widespread brain damage. Injury during birth is the most common cause of symptomatic generalized epilepsy. In addition to seizures, these patients often have other neurological problems, such as mental retardation or cerebral palsy. Specific, inherited brain diseases, such as adrenoleukodystrophy (ADL) or brain infections (such as meningitis and encephalitis) can also cause symptomatic generalized epilepsy. When the cause of symptomatic general epilepsy cannot be identified, the disorder may be referred to as cryptogenic epilepsy. These epilepsies include different subtypes — the most commonly known type is the Lennox-Gastaut syndrome.
Multiple types of seizures (generalized tonic-clonic, tonic, myoclonic, tonic, atonic, and absence seizures) are common in these patients and can be difficult to control. Learn more about these seizure types.
Symptomatic Partial Epilepsy
Symptomatic partial (or focal) epilepsy is the most common type of epilepsy that begins in adulthood, but it does occur frequently in children. This type of epilepsy is caused by a localized abnormality of the brain, which can result from strokes, tumors, trauma, congenital (present at birth) brain abnormality, scarring or “sclerosis” of brain tissue, cysts, or infections.
Sometimes these brain abnormalities can be seen on MRI scans, but often they cannot be identified, despite repeated attempts, because they are microscopic.
This type of epilepsy may be successfully treated with surgery that is aimed to remove the abnormal brain area without compromising the function of the rest of the brain. Epilepsy surgery is very successful in a large number of epilepsy patients who failed multiple anticonvulsant medications (at least two or three drugs) and who have identifiable lesions. These patients undergo a presurgical comprehensive epilepsy evaluation in dedicated and specialized epilepsy centers.
Epilepsy Seizure Types and Symptoms
Based on the type of behavior and brain activity, seizures are divided into two broad categories: generalized and partial (also called local or focal). Classifying the type of seizure helps doctors diagnose whether or not a patient has epilepsy.
Generalized seizures are produced by electrical impulses from throughout the entire brain, whereas partial seizures are produced (at least initially) by electrical impulses in a relatively small part of the brain. The part of the brain generating the seizures is sometimes called the focus. The most common types of seizures are listed below:
Generalized Seizures
(Produced by the entire brain) Symptoms
1. “Grand Mal” or Generalized tonic-clonic Unconsciousness, convulsions, muscle rigidity
2. Absence Brief loss of consciousness
3. Myoclonic Sporadic (isolated), jerking movements
4. Clonic Repetitive, jerking movements
5. Tonic Muscle stiffness, rigidity
6. Atonic Loss of muscle tone
Generalized Seizures
There are six types of generalized seizures. The most common and dramatic, and therefore the most well known, is the generalized convulsion, also called the grand-mal seizure. In this type of seizure, the patient loses consciousness and usually collapses. The loss of consciousness is followed by generalized body stiffening (called the “tonic” phase of the seizure) for 30 to 60 seconds, then by violent jerking (the “clonic” phase) for 30 to 60 seconds, after which the patient goes into a deep sleep (the “postictal” or after-seizure phase). During grand-mal seizures, injuries and accidents may occur, such as tongue biting and urinary incontinence.
Absence seizures cause a short loss of consciousness (just a few seconds) with few or no symptoms. The patient, most often a child, typically interrupts an activity and stares blankly. These seizures begin and end abruptly and may occur several times a day. Patients are usually not aware that they are having a seizure, except that they may be aware of “losing time.”
Myoclonic seizures consist of sporadic jerks, usually on both sides of the body. Patients sometimes describe the jerks as brief electrical shocks. When violent, these seizures may result in dropping or involuntarily throwing objects.
Clonic seizures are repetitive, rhythmic jerks that involve both sides of the body at the same time.
Tonic seizures are characterized by stiffening of the muscles.
Atonic seizures consist of a sudden and general loss of muscle tone, particularly in the arms and legs, which often results in a fall.
Partial Seizures
(Produced by a small area of the brain) Symptoms
1. Simple (awareness is retained)
a. Simple Motor
b. Simple Sensory
c. Simple Psychological a. Jerking, muscle rigidity, spasms, head-turning
b. Unusual sensations affecting either the vision, hearing, smell taste, or touch
c. Memory or emotional disturbances
2. Complex
(Impairment of awareness) Automatisms such as lip smacking, chewing, fidgeting, walking and other repetitive, involuntary but coordinated movements
3. Partial seizure with secondary generalization Symptoms that are initially associated with a preservation of consciousness that then evolves into a loss of consciousness and convulsions.
Partial Seizures
Partial seizures are divided into simple, complex and those that evolve into secondary generalized seizures. The difference between simple and complex seizures is that during simple partial seizures, patients retain awareness; during complex partial seizures, they lose awareness.
Simple partial seizures are further subdivided into four categories according to the nature of their symptoms: motor, autonomic, sensory, or psychological. Motor symptoms include movements such as jerking and stiffening. Sensory symptoms caused by seizures involve unusual sensations affecting any of the five senses (vision, hearing, smell, taste, or touch). When simple partial seizures cause sensory symptoms only (and not motor symptoms), they are called “auras.”
Autonomic symptoms affect the autonomic nervous system, which is the group of nerves that control the functions of our organs, like the heart, stomach, bladder, intestines. Therefore autonomic symptoms are things like racing heart beat, stomach upset, diarrhea, loss of bladder control. The only common autonomic symptom is a peculiar sensation in the stomach that is experienced by some patients with a type of epilepsy called temporal lobe epilepsy. Simple partial seizures with psychological symptoms are characterized by various experiences involving memory (the sensation of deja-vu), emotions (such as fear or pleasure), or other complex psychological phenomena.
Complex partial seizures, by definition, include impairment of awareness. Patients seem to be “out of touch,” “out of it,” or “staring into space” during these seizures. There may also be some “complex” symptoms called automatisms. Automatisms consist of involuntary but coordinated movements that tend to be purposeless and repetitive. Common automatisms include lip smacking, chewing, fidgeting, and walking.
The third kind of partial seizure is one that begins as a focal seizure and evolves into a generalized convulsive (“grand-mal”) seizure. Most patients with partial seizures have simple partial, complex partial, and secondarily generalized seizures. In about two-thirds of patients with partial epilepsy, seizures can be controlled with medications. Partial seizures that cannot be treated with drugs can often be treated surgically.”
CAD – Uh -What’s a google? I dunno. Is it a book or something on the net?
frumnotyeshivish -“Health – to clarify further – I don’t think the methodology of the studies are flawed. What bothers me is after the raw numbers come back, there’s someone sitting there thinking, how can I portray these true numbers in the way that most demonizes smoking? The reason the CDC (center for disease control or the gov.) does this is because “smoking is the #1 preventable cause of death in society” so they are on a mission to demonize it.”
They are on a mission to demonize it because that’s what their statistics told them.
“I don’t like being manipulated by anyone, especially a power figure who thinks they’re acting in my benefit. I’ll decide for myself, thank you. Don’t give me averages over medians, because they are lower. Don’t do tricky things like saying – smoking increases the risk of lung cancer by 2000%. Lung Cancer is one of the deadliest and most common cancers. Every year x amount of people die from cancer.”
Do you even know how rare it is for a Non-smoker to come down with lung cancer? But keep saying that they are making up the statistics!
“Or saying something like – Every year x amount of people die from smoking-related diseases, when the large majority of people who die from heart attack and stroke are not smokers. When calculating how many years a smoker loses on average, don’t use the life expectancy numbers unless you also include all smokers who surpassed that number. Little tricky things, and they drive me crazy.”
Those little trickly things are based on their statistics. Again don’t tell me that their statistics aren’t flawed, but the way they portray them are. They are saying what their statistics have told them to say. There is no hidden agenda. If you don’t like their statistics -do your own. Or just be like every other smoker -“I don’t care if it’s a good possibility that I’ll die young or come down with a deadly disease -I’m going to smoke anyway -no matter what”!
Toi -“Health- your a bochur in your early twenties ot late teens just oozing with the hashkafos that your heilig’ rabbeim have taught you and the razor sharp wit that hurreving for the last two years has earned you. get a grip.”
Thanks -you just took many years off my life. I feel much younger now.
Feif Un -“Health: Now you stoop to attacking Modern Orthodoxy. Mods, honestly, enough of this clown who has now said blatant motzei shem ra about tens of thousands of Jews. Please just ban him already.”
Mods -consistent with your new policy of Not tolerating any insults -please Delete his post and/or ban him.
Abelleh -“Health: Could you please tell me how you know that the government in Israel is a government of kfira?”
Simple, because they don’t keep the Torah. Most don’t even try to keep anything!
DY -And how do you know what the “the” is refering to? Maybe it’s left over pots from Fri. nite & he’s hungry?
Bli Neder I’ll look up the B’H again. I don’t remember the case offhand.
moi aussi -“Yeshivos and seminaries brainwashed their youth that “staying in learning” is the ultimate sacrifice for Torah. At whose expense?”
Not yours. I’m sure you don’t support Kollel!
“Boys were instructed to look for rich fathers in law. Women were instructed to take upon themselves the yoke of parnassa.”
“The results speak for themselves:
-Fathers are collapsing and dying of heart attacks from the financial strain of supporting Kollel children.”
Do you have any proof for Your statistics? Stop making things up just to put down Kollel. We in the medical field know that Heart disease is caused by a few risk factors.
“-Women have become martyrs working like horses at full-time jobs, raising kids and running homes.”
They actually agree to do this. It wasn’t a shotgun wedding. I guess some want a big Chelek in Olam Haba. Maybe you can’t understand this.
“-Bnei Brak has the highest percentage of children living below the poverty line.”
Oh and it’s only because of Kollel. Again how about some proof?
“-The Kollelniks are frustrated and unfulfilled for having been robbed of their role as provider of the family. Consequently their Torah learning is not so serious (to put it mildly).”
Most I know are not like this. Hey – but say anything you want as long as Kollel guys look bad.
“It’s a failed system, and people are waking up to its realities.”
That’s your opinion. But a good portion of the Frum world doesn’t think it’s a failed system. And I don’t learn in Kollel and almost never did!
frumnotyeshivish -“Reb Aharon opened BMG for the elite few, etc…”
I think this is the first time I actually agree with your post. 🙂
But remember what I was talking about was the concept of Kollel – that R. Aharon was Mechadesh in America, not the way it actually is run here in Lakewood.
computer777 -“Health: I know the info you gave me is correct and the info I got from the doc is incorrect.”
Well how do you know the info you got fron an anon. blogger (me)is correct?
DY -“RM”A says the pots which very much sounds like that’s their Shabbos food (certainly their only hot food, which is considered a tzorech gadol).”
Exactly, it’s says pots. You have no idea whether this is Shabbos food or just any food. Also, it doesn’t say whether there was other hot food or not. Don’t put words into the S’A that it doesn’t say. If it doesn’t specify that it’s a case of Tzorech Godol, why are you assuming it is?
I’ll go out on a limb here -I think even hello99 would agree with me here!
OOmis -“Health, there would not BE such a necessity if they would be machshiv providing for their families at least to some degree.”
They are Machshiv it -just they are Machshiv learning all day more!
“As much as you would like to see an idealized lifestyle where men can sit and learn to their heart’s content, the reality is that THEY are responsible to provide for their wives and children according to the Torah that they are sitting and learning.”
They are responsible, but s/o who marries a Kollel guy willingly takes over that responsibilty. It wasn’t a shotgun wedding.
“The Jewish community at large has responsibilities first and foremost to our own families. That boy in Kollel is no better than another frum Yid who learns AND works, but many people today seem to have bought into the myth that because he is sitting and learning he IS better.”
I haven’t bought into that myth, maybe others have. Anything in life can be done Lshem Shomayim -so if the working guy is doing it Lshem Shomayim he is the same as the learning guy doing it Lshem Shomayim. But if the learning guy is poor -it’s a Mitzva to give him Tzedaka. The same would apply to the working guy, but supporting a poor Kollel guy -you get another Mitzva of supporting Torah!
“I have even more respect for someone who does both, because it is that much harder to do both things well.”
Not True! There are plenty of jobs where people don’t work so hard. Very few in America truly work hard. Whom are you kidding?
And then going to a Shiur for a hour is Not as hard as learning by yourself or with a Chavrusa.
“My father O”H was a great talmid chochom who regularly gave shiurim and droshos and made time to learn every spare minute he had, on a daily basis. He also was in a healing profession and gave of his services freely to those who could not afford them and had no insurance. So don’t talk to me of “the likes of” me.
You have no idea what I support and whose Torah learning I help to facilitate, or what Yeshivos I give my maaser to.”
When I say the “likes of you”, I mean s/o who doesn’t believe that Kollel is a way of life and it should be supported. This you have readily admitted to -so why are getting all defensive now?
Did you learn your Hashkofos from your father -namely that noone should sit in Kollel?
Eagerly awaiting your next post. This is becoming very enjoyable! 😉
Toi -“Health- the way you pick apart every sentence is annoying.”
Yes, isn’t it?
Part of the fun of being a member of the CR.
whataguy -“Yeshiva bochurim need an outlet, they dont watch movies, hang out in the mall, browse YWN (at least we hope so) etc.”
Well how about this? Fressing Chulent Thurs. nite. I think this is a better outlet than smoking, but yet this is Ossur in some Yeshivos, but not smoking.
“I am a smoker and I am smoking since 5th grade, my parents took away my money, grounded me numerous times, punished me in anyway possible, only made things worse.”
Wow! Who gave you your first cig?
“My wife drives me insane about my smoking and it makes things worse.”
Yea -imagine that -She actually cares about you?!? Wow -what a wife! (Goes along with “whataguy”!)
“Let us smoke and just daven that WE grow out of our stupid addiction and ridiculous habit. Shomer P’sayim Hashem”
How about this? Get medical help for your addiction besides just Davening. It’s not a Mitzva to be a Pesi!
Toi -“Health- It’s unhealthy; everyone agrees.”
He doesn’t. He said the researchers were biased with their conclusion.
“He’s just pointing out that presenting evidence in a way that shows an obvious bias makes people blow it out of proportion.”
He was talking about the research, not about individual people or even the Gov. If you think the research is flawed -why say -“smoking is unhealthy”?!?!?!?
Lay – Wait for it. – Go to the forest and sit under a “date tree”.
Ta -dum! (:0
OOmis -“You miss the point entirely. NOBODY is entitled to anything. This is not an entitlement and it never was. When did you decide that the government OWES us a living?”
This is a prime example of twisting s/o’s words. “Entitled” -I meant -legally able to acquire, not “Es Koomt Em”!
“I have NO obligation to support anyone with my wallet money or tax dollars, just because he wants to sit and learn for X number of years.”
And even if you did have an obligation, you wouldn’t do it anyway because you don’t believe in this way of life!
“My husband (who also would love to have sat and learned)and I (when I was not busy raising my children) worked very hard to put food on the table and pay our bills. We take pride in paying our own way through life.”
Most people use this excuse. You can use this excuse, but if you want Hashem to give you the Zecus of something called Limud Hatorah -you can do this by supporting people who do sit & learn.
“The people whom you seem to feel are owed a living either by this country or by our kehillah, have grown up with the mindset that it is “coming to them.” Wake up. It is NOT coming to them or to anyone else.”
I know most people who grow up with this minset are not from the Yeshivishe community. Most people who have this mindset are those who were spoiled rotten by their parents. It’s not usually kids of Kollel people -usually comes from people who had lots of money. While if you find people like these in the Kollel community -it’s because their parents were rich and spoiled them. At least they sit and learn and don’t do things like all other spoiled rotten kids in America.
“Who is going to pay the way for THEIR kids when they grow up thinking this lifestyle is the norm? Certainly not their parents, who were being supported by THEIR parents?”
And certainly not by the likes of you, because you don’t even support the parents whom are in Kollel. But your concern for the kids truly touches me!
“Every boy cannot be a rebbie or Rosh Yeshivah. But that is basically what they are being groomed for in the Kollel.”
NEWS FLASH -Most people who are in Kollel aren’t being Groomed for anything. There is such a thing as learning in Kollel just for the sake of learning. It’s called learning Torah Lishma.
Rav A. Kotler zt’l brought this concept to the USA.
“Btw, there very much IS something wrong with taking – unless you are also in some way giving back to the person from whom you take. Takers are users.”
Learning Torah is good for the community -so they are giving back.
“When you take advantage of a program just because it exists, in order to avoid being a responsible adult, that is IMO very wrong.”
Learning in Kollel is not taking advantage of Progams because it exists. It’s using these programs to help them stay in Kollel. Being in Kollel is being a responsible adult.
“It does not build character.”
Learning in Kollel builds more character than working for a living.
“I am not talking about people who simply cannot earn a decent living. Those programs were set in place to help them. To HELP them, not to supplant the need for them to get a job. When we see nisht unzereh taking advantage of these programs, we are critical of them.”
Perhaps people are critical because some take and do nothing constructive with their lives?
“But when Yidden circumvent the rules or play games in order to get Medicaid, food stamps, housing etc. then it suddenly becomes kosher. Except it isn’t kosher. Because when Jews are discovered playing these games, it makes the front page headlines.”
I agree that people shouldn’t steal from the programs which would include lying on your application. Most Frum Jews do not & almost all Kollel guys don’t. So – I’ll repeat – if a Jew, whether in Kollel or not, needs help making ends meet -there is nothing wrong with taking Gov. programs to accomplish this.
If this bothers you so much -get money together and start a Jewish org. that will give these people $ instead of them having to take programs. I’m sure you’ll find a lot of people joining up. Most people whom take these programs do it out of necessity, rather than desire!
DaasYochid – No. The Tzorech Godol is – this is the main course. There won’t be a main course without the Goy turning on the crockpot. In the case you brought -the guy just wants to warm up Stam a pot, nothing to do with any particular Tzorech, let alone a Tzorech Godol!
Avi K -“Health, what about all the chillul Hashem, financial crimes, abuse, etc. in the “frum” community. Would you call them kofrim?”
Another corrupt false logic about Charedim! How many Charedim are involved in these things? I doubt it is even 1% -it’s probably not even 0.1%, but you blame the whole Charedi community for the actions of an extreme few. This is racism! I don’t care about a few bad apples so you can call them what you want. If it makes you happy -you can call them Kofrim. And now, how many Frei Jews including Israelis do things wrong? This seems to be 100%, otherwise they wouldn’t be Frei (Free)!
“BTW, according to rav Kook, kefira comes about because of chesronot in the frum community in order to point out where the Orthodox are lacking.”
Does this include Modern Orthodox or just Charedim? So maybe the Kefira is coming from the MO lack of observance. Eg. – How they support a Medina not based on Torah. How some don’t dress Tzinus and on & on & on!
yichusdik -“Health, I reject your premise that the state and its citizens are kofrim and it is based on kfira.”
And I reject the premise that the Bais Hamikdash was destroyed. It’s still there -you just can’t see it.
hello99 -“I’m afraid you are incorrect. There are VERY few Poskim who agree with this Rema.”
So change “many” to “some”!
“This kind of speculation is part of the risk in Paskenening your own Shailos when unqualified to do so.
So, based on the Teshuvos printed in IGM, it is clear that he would have Paskened you may NOT ask a Goy to turn on your crockpot.”
He says he was Machmir. This means it’s Mutter but some have a Chumra -not to!
hello99 – “Thank you.”
De Nada Senor!
“Since it is well known that Kavod HaBrios permitts many Issurim d’Rabannan and is stronger than a regular Tzorech Gadol which does not, it is clear that the Debritziner would not have permitted your case either.”
You didn’t read my post to DY:
“But he says/brings many cases of Ameira L’acum that he is Matir in situations of Tzorech Godol. Check it out!”
(Not just Kovod Habrious!)
frumnotyeshivish -“What I was saying is that while the studies done are neutral, the way the results are reported are biased toward not smoking. True, smoking is unhealthy.”
So if the results are biased -why do you say – “smoking is unhealthy”?!?
OOmis -“Sadly, you are so right. But that does not mitigate the fact that these programs began solely as an adjunct to help a very small segment of the population on a TEMPORARY basis. It was never intended to be a substitute for their income when they had no intention of earning one for a lengthy (if any) amount of time. That is why we see generational welfare today. And we criticize those nisht unzereh mensnchen who take advantage of it”
You people keep harping on what the program was meant for. It’s irrevelant. If a Jew is entitled – there is nothing wrong with taking. If you think Jews shouldn’t take Gov. programs then every Jew should give enough money to Kollel guys and other poor Jews-so they wouldn’t need to take!
Derech HaMelech -“I have a question for people that are against financially supporting kollel.”
What’s wrong with your post is -you don’t understand their mentality. These guys wouldn’t support Kollel even if the Kollel guy slept like the Gra! Finding some guy who doesn’t make the most of his time is just an excuse. Most do make the most of their time!
DY – “However, in our case, it would clearly be ????, as per the ??”? in ??”? ???? ? and ?”? ?? ?”? ?”?.
??? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ?????”
The case you brought down isn’t talking about Tzorech Godol, like in my case. Even in your case the Biur Halacha brings down an instance where it’s Mutter! You got mixed up.
yichusdik -“BTW, there is a huge amount of evidence and information in his sefer that provides support for the establishment of a state, for example, his interpretation that it can be taken by force if necessary.”
So this “State” that the Gaon is talking about is one based on Kefira, right?!?!?
Abelleh -“[2] Im Timtzeh Lomar, that the Zionist movement are kofrim (which it isn’t, mind you; the entire Hesder and most Orthodox communities in America are Zionist), WE WOULD STILL NEED TO KEEP THE MEDINA.”
A good portion of the Frei Yidden in Israel are Kofrim and so is their gov. Who gave the MO’s permission to join hands with Kofrim? Even if they are just neighbors with them without any support whatsoever -it’s still Oy L’Resha V’oy L’schaino! You’re not allowed to support a Medina based on Kefira – acc. to the Torah, no matter who brainwashed you that you are!
“I wish to make this abundantly clear; the current Medina in Israel is not at all “treif”. If you believe it is, I would greatly appreciate some sort of source or fact showing (or better yet, proving) that it is. But again, even if it is, it doesn’t matter.”
And I wish to make it abundantly clear that eating pig is not at all “Treif”! If you believe it is, I would greatly appreciate some sort of source or fact showing (or better yet, proving) that it is. But again, even if it is, it doesn’t matter!
Everyday there are countless of Aveiros occuring in the “Medina”, such as Chillul Shabbos, eating Non-Kosher, etc., but who cares, right?
“Now you ask, “Hey, Abelleh. Where do you get that crazy idea from? If the Medina is against Torah values, of course we need to abandon it!” And then I would respond, “Well Health, if you look at Jewish history and Nach, we see all the time that the government in Israel is not at all religious, even anti-religious. Now, if we supported the government then, and I would like to note that not all of those times was the Beis Hamikdash extant, why shouldn’t we now? What changed Health?”
And you would respond how?”
If you look back at the times during those years when things weren’t being kept acc. to the Torah and we kept at it -this is why we Don’t have the Bais Hamikdash anymore. There was a reason Hashem took it away and it wasn’t because we had excellent behavior. The whole reason we even have documented all these incidents in the Nach is to learn from them. The reason it’s even called Novi -is because the Neeviim kept screaming to do Teshuva and noone listened. Making and having a Medina is doing all those mistakes all over again. Let me give you an example of how people can get blinded very easily and can’t even see an obvious lesson (or Musser Deherr!):
There was a son whose father was a drunk. He loved his father and wanted him to stop. One day he saw a drunkard (PBA -perhaps?)[:)]in the street and e/o was gathered around making fun of him. He quickly ran and called his father who was sober at the moment – to come and see to learn some Mussar. When the father got there -he bent down & asked the guy -“Hey what have you been drinking -it looks like some good stuff -I want to get some too!”
Feif Un -“Health, I disagree – most kollel guys COULD find jobs if they wanted to. When those who leave kollel to go work do so, most find jobs pretty quickly.”
I didn’t think you would agree! So you make up these statistics to go along with your beliefs, even though nothing you wrote is True!
“When I said “act like this”, I meant l’chatchilah taking money that is supposed to only be for a b’dieved.”
They only take it because it’s a B’dieved. Repeating your belief hundreds of time doesn’t make it True!
“If kollel guys didn’t take government money, and the system was the way it should be, maybe I’d be more inclined to support them.”
So they should starve while you Think about it? Good one!
“The way it is now is a joke (a very bad one), and I won’t support it.”
You wouldn’t support it – no matter what because you and other MO’s don’t believe in this way of life!
“You can argue the cause for what you do all you want, but don’t try to put the blame on other people. The blame lies squarely on those in the kollels.”
Actually I wasn’t arguing or blaming anyone. You came here cursing out Kollel guys and I defended them. So if you want to come here & blame s/o -blame the Jews who won’t support Torah for Kollel guys- so they end up having to take Gov. support!
“The fact is that people in kollel don’t know what it means to be moser nefesh to sit and learn. People then didn’t know where their next meal would come from. That is true mesiras nefesh, and it weeded out those who weren’t serious about their learning from those who were. I think we need to have this again, so we can see who the true learners are.”
Does anybody in the Goldene Medina know what Mesiras Nefesh is?
You have to live in the here & now, not in the Alte Heim!
Compared to the Jews like you in America -Kollel guys are much more Moser Nefesh in their lifestyle!
frumnotyeshivish -“What about what I say? There’s always opening your own yeshiva, hiring magidei shiurim whose shvers pay their salaries (it’s worth the kavod), charging tuition, and then fundraising on top of that. That doesn’t take much (non-political) talent. Also, you could build houses. Wait…you could build your own yeshiva building, buy it from yourself at a profit, sell the naming rights, fundraise for the inflated cost of the building which was covered by the naming rights, use the cash to open a girls’ elementary school, sell the name to that, hire (female) teachers at 6 dollars an hour, and collect your tuition in cash, so that your institutions could remain non-profit and you still qualify for programs.
See – it’s easy to find real honest work. My suggestions should be profitable. Worst comes to worst, you can always turn to laundering tax-deductible donations.
I would say most kollel guys are at least capable of this, wouldn’t you?”
I’d agree, but you see a lot of Jews are like you and would never support this many Yeshivos. I mean – do people like you support any real Yeshiva, not just the MO type? So it would be impossible to have this many Yeshivos -so I guess the Kollel guys are stuck in Kollel!
To Sam -How about calling this guy out on L’tzonous like you do to me? Or is there a double standard between Yeshivishe people & MO guys?
computer777 -“Very good advice. And that includes not changing doctors simply because an anonymous poster who knows nothing about my kids doctor has decided she is incompetent.”
I agree. You should not take advice here without checking it out.
So go find another Medical Practioner who is competent (I’m sure you can find one -ask around -like your friends and/or family) and when you find one -tell him/her what you posted here. You might be surprised and they might agree with what I said.
G-luck to you!
Avi K -“Health & Co., the State is the greatest beracha to Am Yisrael and the world in millenia.”
Again acc. to most Gedolim the State is and was a very bad thing! The only Machlokes was -what to do about it!
“The government being the way it is is due to the fact that there are approximately 800K Orthodox Jews (more than 10% of the current population) who do not live here and therefore do not vote.”
So would 800k people change the demographics? This still wouldn’t make a majority! And even if you do live there -a lot don’t vote because they were told Not to by their Gedolim!
“If you are unwilling or unable to help at least stop whining and get out of the way!”
Oh, I am helping. I’m putting out the Daas Torah – so more Jews will stop worshiping a Treif Medina! Stating Daas Torah -I really don’t think is “whining”! And I don’t think me or anybody else is in anybody’s way -people like you do what they want & have always done what they want! Maybe we are waking up some people’s conscious and this is bothering you (which I understand -why).
frumnotyeshivish -“I have never met a person who quit smoking who didn’t truly want and decide to quit; and I have never (yet) met a smoker who truly wanted to and decided to quit, and then failed.”
The second part I disagree with because even though “When there is a will – there is a way”, and although true some really have no will, but most don’t know how to quit. They aren’t aware how to get help. They aren’t aware of the meds or counselling. So there are many who truly want to quit, but can’t!
“I don’t smoke (anymore) BTW.”
I’m proud of you. 🙂
“I don’t appreciate the manipulation of numbers that anti-smokers use to try to influence mass behavior, even if some of it is true.”
There is no manipulation!
“A correlation between a behavior and a higher incidence rate of a disease does not prove that the behavior causes the disease.
A smoker is more statistically likely to get heart disease.
That does not mean that a smoker who got heart disease got it from smoking – heart disease is common among non-smokers. Same with stroke.”
Obviously, but most who do come down with these diseases -come from smoking. It’s foolish to think otherwise. Go see the pts. with Heart Disease, like I have and do a history on them. When you do the history a good portion of the time all you find from risk factors is the smoking. So maybe Heart Disease comes from something else like sleeping or maybe, just maybe -it’s because this person has been smoking umteen years?!?!?
“Another point – “Smokers are 20 times more likely to get lung cancer,” vs. “Non-Smokers have a 1/7200 incidence of lung cancer, smokers have 1/360 incidence of lung cancer” The CDC said the first one, I said the second one (based on info from the CDC). Both are true.”
So -What IS your point here?
“I can turn it around. Someone who quits smoking has an 80% likelihood of gaining weight. Perhaps it is healthier to smoke.”
Naarish!! The best thing is Not to start smoking. If you smoke, you should quit. If you quit, you shouldn’t do it on your own because then it’s a good chance you’ll trade one problem for another. You should quit under medical care. Hopefully this will prevent complications such as obesity due to the lack of smoking.
“Remember, figures can’t lie but liars can figure. Trying to maximize the emotional effect by being tricky, just because it is the most practical way to lower healthcare spending is wrong. Again, the incidence rate I posted is 100% neutral, and 100% agenda free. Stating the percentage increase without stating the original numbers, is a big fat manipulative lie.”
That’s your opinion, but the opinion of the researchers who know how to do statistics and aren’t with any bias like you are, have found smoking is dangerous to your health. And btw, this research was done way before the country became concerned about healthcare spending. And a good portion of why this country has had such a tremendous increase in healthcare spending is because of so many people smoking! And I agree with “figures can’t lie but liars can figure”, but this applies to you -not to the researchers!
So tell me –Why DID you quit smoking?
hello99 -“why do you think Reb Moshe would lie and say “many have been Maikil like the Rema”?”
I don’t think he would lie -I think that’s what he would say. I think that there are many, but since I don’t know as much as him -I don’t know who they are!
Feif Un -“Health, a kollel check is not nearly enough to support a family,”
Most definitely Not!
“and most guys in kollel could find another job that would pay enough.”
Most of them could not -No matter what you say.
“Therefore, you’re doing it as a l’chatchilah.”
Therefore e/o is doing it as B’dieved!
“As for giving money to kollels, I don’t feel the need to.”
Not that I thought you would feel the need!
“Not when you act like this.”
In what way do I act? Speaking the truth against Kollel bashers?
“I help support people who are learning – on an INDIVIDUAL level, and only those who I think could actually become something big.”
I’m not really interested where you give your money, but if a lot of “Frum people” don’t support Kollels then don’t complain about Kollel guys taking Gov. programs.
“I refuse to support a large kollel that takes in people who will never become Rabbonim.”
Not e/o agrees. Some hold they are doing the right thing by sitting all day and learning, no matter what anyone says!
hello99 -“health: “many have been Maikil like the Rema in cases of Tzorech Godol to do Ameira L’acum”
can you name a single one, other than your supposed Debritziner?”
That quote is what I think R. Moshe would say, I didn’t say it.
So since he said it -go ask him.
writersoul -“Health: No, it doesn’t. Please read my post again.”
I read your post, but obviously you didn’t read all of mine! I posted to others there are no guarantees in life despite e/o wanting one. Turkey was always good to the Jews. They believe more or less in democracy. Nothing can be worse than Tzionim in charge! So if you have to pick a country, Turkey is a logical choice, much better than any Arab Country!
Abelleh -“Sure. First let’s start with the pasukim:
?????????????? ???-???????, ????????????-?????: ???? ????? ???????? ???-???????, ???????? ??????.
??????? ??????? ??? ????????, ????????? ???????????? ??? ?????????, ???-????? ????????? ????????, ????????????? ?????????? ???????
Now to the Ramban. In the back of sefer haMitzvos, the Rambam has a collection of mitzvos the Rambam “forgot,” and mitzvah 4 there says that you should make a medina.
The Rambam, Hilchos Milachim perek aleph halacha aleph says you need to appoint a king upon entering the land.”
Excuse me -You didn’t answer the question! The question was -Why should anyone support a Medina based on Kefira? Not what Mitzvos are there regarding making a Medina & Yishuv Haaretz?
“Need I go on?”
No, you actually need to start. Anything that you posted so far has nothing to do with the reality of what Gov. that Israel has in place right now! Stop confusing making a Medina based on Torah with the Medina of the Tzionim which is based on Kefira!
computer777 -“And I’m very happy with the doctor I use, and see no reason to change.”
Incompetence is a good reason to change. There is an old saying -“better safe than sorry”. And also -“forewarned is forearmed.”
Remember you can’t change the past -so don’t do something in the here and now that you might come to regret the rest of your life.
GAW – Hatred to certain groups like Charedim and/or certain individuals are bad for people’s health too. Not just bad for their health in this world!
EH -“Immediate response, of course not.”
Sorry, but this isn’t always the Gedolim’s response.
When R. Ruderman zt’l was asked whom to vote for either Jimmy Caawter or G. Ford -his response was either a Menuval or a Shoiteh? In this case he said go for the Menuval -Caawter!
So it really depends who the other candidates are! Ask Daas Torah!
There is No one answer for every case!
Feif Un -“Health, do you really take it as a b’dieved? Are you working to support your family? If you’re sitting in kollel all day, then you’re taking it as a l’chatchilah.”
That’s your opinion because you think Kollel is like sitting on the stoop all day! But actually most Kollel guys get a check for learning. And if all their incomes’ (eg. if their wife works) isn’t enough to cover their expenses -then they take Social programs which they are entitled to. This is called B’dieved. If the Jewish community would give more money to the Kollel fund -maybe they could pay them better and not have to take social programs. I know – “the Jewish community doesn’t have enough for themselves” -so how come I’m seeing all these ads for the Jewish community on all these Jewish websites offering Pesach all over the world in luxurious hotels and don’t tell me they can’t make Pesach. Because even if they can’t -they can stay at the local Hotel. Lots of Jews spend on themselves first and afterwards spend on others! So if this is the way it is -Don’t complain when Jews have to take Gov. programs to survive.
DY -“Health, You can’t extrapolate oneg Shabbos (cholent) from kavod habrios.”
I didn’t. You didn’t read my whole post:
“But he says/brings many cases of Ameira L’acum that he is Matir in situations of Tzorech Godol. Check it out!”
GAW -“To most others it would be called a Chillul Hashem. You have your own reasons to call it otherwise”
Chillul Hashem? You obviously don’t know the definition! Because the Gov. Bureau decided they didn’t like how the Frum Jews were implementing it – is Not a Chillul Hashem. They did Not break any regs. at that time! If s/o would lie on their application – that is a Chillul Hashem. Don’t accuse Frum Yeshiva people of doing bad Aveiros because of your bias against them!
Feif Un -“They’re supposed to be a b’dieved, not a l’chatchilah. In Lakewood, they’re treated as a l’chatchilah. People should be trying to make ends without help. If you still can’t, and you’re doing everything you can, then you can rely on government programs.”
More Motzay Shem Ra! I take them and by me this is only a B’dieved. I don’t even know whether others are taking them L’chatchilla or B’dieved, but you know? And I have lived here many years. Perhaps you know these facts because of your bias against Charedim?
“Health, the reason the government changed the rules is not antisemitism. It’s because the programs are intended for those who are trying to make ends meet, and can’t. Either they’re looking for work and can’t find it, or they’re working but just not making enough. They’re not intended for those who choose not to work and intend to rely on these programs.”
Of course it’s antisemitism. There are some other groups (not to mention any names) in America that a lot of them have been sitting around all day doing nothing except drinking Booze & taking drugs and yet there has not been any regs directed at removing them from the social programs. As matter of fact, these groups have been doing this long before Lakewood was. Years and years before. And they are still doing it. At least Lakewooders are doing something constructive with their lives -like sitting and learning all day! I know -I know -You don’t consider this anything constructive, but some of us religious Jews do!
Sam2 -“Health: I think the word “religious” in the phrase “religious Zionists” shows that they do not identify with Kofrim.”
Sorry I don’t think that cuts it.
Let me give you an example -Some people want to start a group against Yoske and call it “Religious Jews for J”? Do you think this would be a good idea, even if their letter head states Religious Jews for J’s destruction? It would be Maaros Ayin at the very least. So using the word Zionists in your movement, even with “religious” beforehand is Maaros Ayin, at the very least!
Avi K -“Health, name-caling is a cognitive bias. You can google it.”
You keep repeating the same line. I’m not going to Google anything. If you have a point post it, if not – I’m not interested to hear about name-calling over & over & over & over…
computer777 -“It is wrong to hold down an older kid. It’s very traumatic.
He doesn’t seem traumatized at all.”
Because he has gotten used to being traumatized -doesn’t mean that you can/should keep doing it. I’m not a mental health expert, but this seems like boderline abuse, esp. when there are other methods to accomplish this.
Aries & other experts your opinion?
“I certainly wouldn’t make this up. I assumed that he should be able to get one injection and so I asked for it, but the doctors office told me he would need one every day.”
Yes, you can give one shot of Penicillin G. Now it’s possible that the Doc’s staff made what you said up and if you asked the Doc directly he/she would say what I posted, it’s irrevelant. The Doc is responsible for them. So whether the Doc is incompetent or his/her staff is -if I were you I’d seek another Doctor. Most are competent!