just my hapence

Are you sitting comfortably? Then we’ll begin…

Derech – I think you may have slightly missed the point of my question. HKB’H does not do things for no reason, and therefore would not have put anything into the creation for no reason. Therefore it is valid to ask what the point of the fossils/dinosaur bones would be. The dating methods normally used were not invented, but discovered, i.e. they use rules that HKB’H put into teva, and, as the Rambam writes, this is the way in which HKB’H designed the world to act optimally. Therefore, the question can be asked why HKB’H put into the creation things that would, according to the way that He has designed the world to run, be wrongly interpreted. For whose benefit? Now, I hear your Sifsei Chaim but I don’t understand what dinosaur skeletons have to do with physical manifestations of prior spiritual realities any more than, say, Alpha Centauri. And the deer skeleton analogy doesn’t work either – HKB’H created physical deer with physical skeletons that are left when the deer die and all the flesh has decomposed; they were not placed, fully formed, into creation as simply skeletons of things that had no physical reality. Deer skeletons do not violate the derech hateva, whereas dinosaurs would. And much can be learned about the world and how it runs from said deer skeletons, which would help enhance our appreciation of the chochmas haborei. Not so the dinosaurs, because, according to this theory, they never actually were nivro.

I think also my comment about learning rishonim might have been taken a bit sharper than it was intended. It was not an ad hominem attack, simply a direction to marei mekomos. If offense was taken, I apologise. However, I do not know why you had to resort to the Seder Olam, a sefer of disputed authorship or even age (it was definitely around at the time of the Rishonim, as Rashi quotes it, but may be of Gaonic, Ammoraic or Tannaic authorship), when you have perfectly good Rishonim who do learn the Shita Alfei as referring to the age of the universe (e.g. Rashi, Rambam), all I was pointing out was that there are others who don’t.

I’m not sure, however, that your solution isn’t tantamount to admitting to a billion-year-old creation anyway. If you have a ‘klolus’ of the shitta of the Sefer HaTemunah (or Bahir, or Midrash Yovelos, or whatever) then you have a physical existence that is that old, whatever ‘protiyusdike’ epicycle is referred to in the other shittos still takes place within that creation. Unless, of course, you refer to the theory that the universe expands until it grows too large, so contracts to a minute point (the Alpha Singularity), leading to another Big Bang and the whole cycle repeats endlessly. Which is just a fancy modern version of the ‘Olom Kadmon’.

I don’t think that here is the most sensible place to go into detailed discussions of Darwin’s beliefs (and, yes, I know I brought it up in the first place, but it wasn’t meant to evolve into something like this…), but suffice it to say he was not an agnostic b’shitta, but someone who struggled with his faith (as your quote I think demonstrates). Agnostic simply means ‘no knowledge’, and though Darwin did admittedly grow more and more uncomfortable with, and became more unsure of, his faith he never actually rejected it as far as I can tell from what I have learned. If this is not the case, then I would be happy to admit to it. However, as I think I pointed out, that has nothing to do with dinosaurs or old universes.

bob

Coz everyone else seems to have gone on holiday, I think I’ll stick this up whilst no-one’s looking, coz it’s one I’m a bit unsure about…

42

As I go out I come in, seeking.

I have what I hold, I hold what I have.

I hold in my hand, I hold in my heart,

I hold in my mind, I hold in my soul.

I seek what I do not know

I do not know what I seek

As I come in I go out, still seeking.

Nope. We just use beer glasses for everything.

veltz – I understand your point, but I think there is a huge difference between creating a world with fully formed things in and adding in things that aren’t necessary. The back-story in this case does not add anything to the running of the world nor to our understanding of HKB’H, unlike, say in Harry Potter, where the back-story is quite vital.

And Derech Hamelech, I think I explained why his philosophical answer didn’t do it for me. My mention of logic vs revelation was a bit of a sidebar, and referred only to your mention of having the age revealed to us. The problem here is that, as you mention, the scientists ‘don’t have all the facts’, in which case, why did HKB’H put the fossils there to be found, presumably by the people who ‘don’t have all the facts’? I mean, it wasn’t for us, to whom you claim revelation of age – no point – and it wasn’t for them because that would be deliberately misleading, as they are not in possession of ‘all the facts’. So for whom?

By the way, chazal do not count as ‘revelation’, they were not nevi’im. As for it being in chazal, I presume you refer to shita alfei shnin hava alma. Please learn rishonim, as there is some debate as to what ‘alma’ means. According to many (e.g. Rav Chisdai Crescas [rebbe of the Ran]) it refers to civilisation (see Torah Or, droshos);hence ‘v’chad choruv’ – an impossibility if it refers to the universe (if nothing exists, there can be no time to measure how long it does not exist for [see gr’a on the words ‘breishis boro’, and also general relativity]) and which would also otherwise beg the question of ‘what comes after that?’. This is also the opinion of the Ibn Ezra and Ramaban (Al Hatorah). Furthermore, there are plenty of chazals about the age of the universe which give different ages (medrash yovelos, shittas r’ yehuda in medrash rabba etc.). So which is the ‘authentic’ revelation through chazal?

Please understand, I am not saying that I personally believe in a billion-year-old universe. I don’t have any belief whatsoever as to the age of the universe, it makes no difference to my emuana. All I am trying to point out is that the issue is not as cut and dry as some make it out to be.

As for your assertion that Darwin ‘went off’. I suppose that that’s why in the end of ‘Origin'(you know, that book in which he supposedly rejected G-d…) he marvels at how G-d made such a wonderful system for running the world. The fact is, he never actually lost his faith. His student, Huxley, was the one that made evolution into an anti-religion issue. It was him who claimed that Darwin lost his faith, despite there being no evidence for that, and even, as just mentioned, evidence to the contrary.

TheMusicMan, don’t want to get all technical on you, but I presume you know of Bertand Russel’s classic logical objection to your proposition. Also, and I know R’ Dovid Gottleib does attempt to answer this one, but quite why HKB’H would create a world that has deliberately misleading artifacts in it is a mystery. Please don’t talk about bechira, because we’d have the same bechira without it, plus bechira needs to be informed, which, if one has no access to any contrary information, it is not in such a case as there is no reason why the fossils and such should not be as old as they appear to be.

Your understanding of relativity also leaves a lot to be desired, and your application arbitrary.

I do not claim to understand any of the issues posed in this thread. Do I believe in dinosaurs? Well, they’ve definitely found bones and why shouldn’t they have? No idea if they really did. How old is the universe? No idea, wasn’t there at the time. I rely on the mishna in chagiga, perek 2, mishna 1. V’hamevin yovin.

SM – I grew up with NAS’s complaining about poor writing’, so she means what she says…

And as for you, NAS, maybe another time. I think you may have used up your order quota, only one to-order poem at a time I think…

bubka – presumably you’ve heard of Harav Arvrohom Gurvitz shlit’a, Rosh Yeshivas Beis Yosef D’Gateshead (otherwise known as Gateshead Yeshiva) who once told a friend of mine “he’s not J. B., he’s R’ Yoshe Ber MiBoston”. I take it he’s charedi enough for you…

Personally, my wife and I learn shmiras shabbos k’hilchoso.

SM -I think, essentially, we agree. I may have been slightly forceful last night, what with the being stressed and stuff. But my problem is not encouragement or people posting poorly written poems, it’s people going “oooh, you’re soooooooooooooo talented” when clearly, they aren’t. I don’t mind people letting out their innermost feelings, in fact I think they’re very brave. I do mind people telling them that their writing is excellent when it’s not. I do try and reply to people who I think need encouragement, but I will only say that the poem as a poem is good if it actually is. I may have been, as Romney would say, a trifle indelicate, but you’ll have to excuse that. I was a little bit worried about an exam I had this morning (1st one in 8 years…) and seriously thought it would go like a dyslexic koi. So I had a rant. Sorry.

SM – they come pretty much off the top of my head… It’s a very strange place there…

SM – really connected with your feelings in that last one, though I would never have had the guts to put something that personal online… I did write some stuff when I went through very similar experiences, but kept it very much to myself. All I can say, and I know this won’t help in the slightest, is to hang in there, keep on going because it will turn out well. Sometimes it takes time, and sometimes you can’t see the light at the end of the tunnel, or even that you’re in a tunnel at all. And then, all of a sudden, HKB’H flicks the light-switch. And you really can’t do much about other people’s perceptions except learn to ignore them. Here’s wishing you much simcha in the very near future!

I’m a yekke who doesn’t wear on chol hamo’ed. It’s a bit of a funny one, I admit, but that’s the family mesora, so hey…

SM – we do have fun, lots of it… We’ve been doing it since we were kids. Many thanks for the compliment!

Ready Now – look, I understand that you don’t agree with reading certain kinds of literature, but that’s no reason to completely mangle a Rambam by taking it out of context. I assume that when you refer to him ‘despising works of the imagination’ you are referring to the statement in Shemona Perokim (1,4) where he is referring to the philosophical position of the Muttakalimun who held that, seeing as imagination cannot create anything new, anything that could be imagined must by definition exist. This is what the Rambam decries as “absurd” because, whilst it may be true that the imagination cannot create anything conceptually new it can take elements of what does exist conceptually and blend them into something which cannot exist in actuality, for example the concept of wings exists as does the concept of massive reptiles, the imagination can take these and create from them a dragon which, categorically,does not. It is this sort of PHILOSOPHICAL imagination, as opposed to reasoned philosophy, that the Rambam objected to. Nothing to do with imagination in artistry. And the Rambam read the works of Plato, which, if you’ve ever read them (and I doubt you have) are not simply philosophical works, but literature as well, they are stories (e.g. the tale of Atlantis). If the Rambam hated literature so much, I doubt he’d have done that. And by the way, your repeated assertions that reading secular literature can lead to ‘more aveiros’ (incidentally implying that the reading is in itself an aveiro, something I have spectacularly failed to find in any of the minyan hamitzvos…) bear no more water for your constant repetition of them. No matter how much you say it, it simply isn’t true. I suppose that R’ Avrohom Gurvitz SH’lita, Rosh Yeshivas Gateshead must be very surprised to learn of all the aveiros he’s done as a result of him having read Shakespeare, the collected works of which you can see on the very bottom of one of his bookshelves, just under the World Atlas. I’m not saying that he reads them all the time, or even that he has read them within the last 50 years, just that, at some point in his life, he did.

MP – thanks! Like NAS says, it’s nice to get feedback from people who just read the stuff I write without knowing who I am. In a funny kind of way, it makes it feel much more personal…

The Chofetz Chaim has quite a bit to say about shidduchim and giving information. The halocho is that unless you know of a SPECIFIC defect that is almost certain to have a detrimental effect on a marriage it is completely ossur to offer the information if not asked for directly. Being ‘not a top learner’ is in no way such a thing, nor is being previously engaged (both these are written mefurash in chofetz chaim as being so). And, as other people have pointed out, you are seriously nogeiah here. I have a few friends who, when I was asked about them for shidduch information, could not see how the girl being offered was right for them. Of course, because it is not my place to offer opinions only information, I said nothing. They are all happily married. So yes, negius makes a whole lot of difference. Remember, your cousin is old enough to decide for herself, she is a grown-up, mature, rational human being who is intelligent enough to make her own decisions. If she feels, after having dated him and found out about him, that he is right for her, let her make that decision for herself.

NAS – course I remember! He didn’t half go on about it… If we’re trading the silly poems…

Migrations

“It’s about time,” said the bird on the right,

Removing his pipe from his mouth,

“I could do with a really good holiday,

It’s about time I headed Down South.”

“Down South?” asked his fellow bird, scratching his beak

And wondering quite how he knew

Which way was where, be it forward or back,

And in just which direction to flew.

But with nary a word, the bird on the right

Was now a bird gone upstairs

To pack up a suitcase with all his belongings

And check up on cheap hotel fares.

So three hours later, with shades on his eyes

And the suitcase tucked under one wing,

He came back downstairs to his friend who just shrugged

And said “I guess I’ll see you next spring.”

“But Winter’s coming,” said original bird,

“You could freeze here until you were Dead.”

“Well I may or may not,” came back the response,

“But I’m rather attached to my bed.”

“But Florida’s waiting, excitement and fun,

And ice-cream and surfing all day!”

“Well it might or might not,” said his friend in reply,

“But I think I’d rather just stay.”

So he turned and he shrugged, and without a goodbye,

Not even I’ll-see-you-around,

He flapped and he fluttered and soon he was flying

Three thousand feet over the ground.

He flew for a day, he flew for a week,

He flew ’til he couldn’t no more,

He stopped at a hotel in Miami Beach

And was shocked at who opened the door.

“Well, you took your sweet time to get here,”

Said his friend who he’d once thought insane,

“Whilst you battled your way through the cold and wet,

I cheated and came here by plane.”

As a psychology undergrad, I’d just like to contribute (as my name suggests) my ha’pence ‘orth… (for those who don’t know it’s an old phrase from here in North West England for ‘my little bit’).

There seems to be much confusion about IQ and what it is and isn’t. IQ testing was developed in the early 20th Century by Binet and Simon as a measure of child cognitive development and not as one of intelligence per se. It is therefore a useful diagnostic tool for SpLDs (specific learning difficulties) such as dyslexia or dyspraxia; it is not a ‘who’s cleverer than who’ contest. It is true that organisations like MENSA use it as a criterion for membership, however this is coupled with other tests.

Further, from a purely psychological perspective there is no actual single definition of ‘intelligence’ and as such is referred to as being ‘context-specific’. Even academic intelligence, such as mathematical ability, is context-specific, see Nunes and Bryant “Children doing Mathematics” (1996) where Brazilian children’s mathematical ability differed depending on the setting (market/school).

And on the whole Gedolim more intelligent than scientists/philosophers thing. Twaddle. Rubbish. Hevel havolim. Just because someone is a gadol does not mean that they are, by definition, a prodigal genius who’s mental acuity outstrips even the greatest mind that the non-Jewish world has to offer. People who aren’t frum Jews can be intelligent, perhaps even more so than gedolim. Chochmo bagoyim ta’amin, kabel ho’emes mi’mi she’omro. These are the words of Chazal, not some throw-away to be followed by ‘yeah, but…’. Just because you are wrong, or hold views that are heretical does not make you less intelligent than someone who’s views are not. I’m pretty confident that Isaac Newton was a lot cleverer than me. Well, at least he had a higher IQ anyway…

Love the thread people… I’ve been writing poetry for a number of years now but have been a bit scared to share it with anyone except close friends and family, but here goes….

How To Be Extraordinary

When all the hearts are broken,

How can you sit so still?

When all the dreams are shattered

And no more hopes are left to kill,

And the melody has played its course,

And the trees have lost their shade,

And the colours in the painting

Are all washed out and start to fade,

You stand, you see, you do not move,

You do not act, you do not do;

You sit, you stare, you ponder why

One and another must make two.

Come with me, let us travel;

Come and find forgotten places,

Virgin sand on which to stride,

To breach, to conquer, to boldly go,

To plant, to build, to found, to grow,

To jump, to grab, to seize the day,

To move, to drive, to never stay.

I came and did, and all to show,

For I can fly, for I have dreams.