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Talking too much does not help, talking too little does not help — pressure might. And, yes, we are talking about BY-type girls.
One of the reasons that the maskilim had less success by the Chassidim was because the latter were more forceful in their macho’os, while the Litvaks were more timid. I am a Litvak, by the way.
I did not mean to say they will have a re-awakening — they just may feel the pressure and be afraid to do it.
To mind one’s own business when one could be moche is wrong! These women, mestama, would not do it in many places in E.Y. Why?! — food for thought.
So right, it depends on whom, we are talking about. I am talking about the resent pirtsa in Flatbush — where till recently you would almost never see an improperly dressed Jewish girl. If people give them funny looks, if some ladies rebuke them verbally, it very well may work.
I think that, if there were more pressure from community members, more tochecha, those women would not be doing it.
Yitayningwut, there are many kiruv resources available to answer your questions. But it is not for an al regel ahas answer on this site. Korov hefseido yoser mi’s’haro!
You are, probably, too entrenched in math logics. Sorry.
Is it likely she will? –No.
But it is logical that God Almighty can do that.
SISinNYC, see my post above.
A tinok she’nishba is obligated to bring a chattas, when he becomes frum. From here we see, that it was possibale for him to come to the Emunah on his own, if he thought the right way. And he is a little bit faulted for not doing that (hence, the korban). But he is still a shogeg korov le’ones.
SJSinNYc, do not confuse logical with likely.
Also, it is very interesting that many laws of quantum mechanics and theory of relativity are totally ar odds with our perception of reality. What I want to say is that if something does not appear to make sence to us, based on our perception of physical realities, it does not mean that it can not be.
A child is considered an autonomous extension of his parents till his bar mitsva or her bas mitsva age, and can be punished for the parents aveiros (Parshas Ki Teitze, Pashi on the posuk “Lo yumsu avos…”).
I am appaled by the utter lack of Ahavas Isroel, a feeling for another, trying to see yourself in another person’s place displayed by some people, including some of the posters here. They do not feel that frei Yidden are Yidden also, that we need to mekarev them,if possible (why did Ribono shel Olam send all the Nevi’im to rebuke Yidden, who were ovdei avoda zorah?). That baalei t’shuva are your brothers, and one must treat them accordingly. To some of the born-frum ba’alei ga’ava: had you been born in a frei home, would you become frum? If yes, how quickly? It appears that for some, as long as they (or, maybe, their community)are ok, the rest of Klal Isroel can just go under. has ve’sholom. It is not suprising that we
are still in golus.September 2, 2010 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm in reply to: The Application of the Laws of Shmiras Halashon to Shidduchim #694450
If a person learnt the halochos well enough, and he is, generally speaking, smart enough, he should be able to know what to do. There are Rabbonim, who have shitos in this area, that it does not look like the Chofets Haim would agree to.September 2, 2010 7:21 pm at 7:21 pm in reply to: The Application of the Laws of Shmiras Halashon to Shidduchim #694449
If a person learnt the halochos well enough, and he is, generally speaking, smart enough, he should be able to know what to do. There are Rabbonim, who have shitos in this area, that it does not look like the Chofets Haim would agree to.
SJSinNYC, I am sorry, but you are wrong. we are not talking about modern Ivrit usage, or what someone claims the Ivrit usage is. We are talking about what is meant when frum people use it (this is how it is also used by the Poskim). When frum people call a woman in a short skirt “a prutsa”, they do not mean “a zonah”. It is true, however, that sometimes one is talking about a zonah, but feels it is more eidel to say “prutsa”. But again, nobody means it like that in regard to frum women who are not dressed properly.
Gavra, we are talking about the current usage, and the way it is used in the Rishonim and Achronim. And the gemorah, you brought, is not conclusive, either. And when someone calls a woman a prutsa, a zonah is not implied.
SJSinNYC, you are talking about a zonah or a k’deishah. Has ve’sholom, these Jewish women are not that. A prutsa is someone who does not dress or act modestly (according to the standards of the Chazal). But part of the reason why it is ossur to act pritsusdic is because we are worried it should not come , has ve’sholom, to worse things.
SJSinNYC, How do you know what a prutsa is? Did you learn the divrei Chazal and poskim about the topic? Or you use for your guidlines the excuses that some women invented? A skirt not covering the knees is bad enough! And if they are allowed to get away with it, they very well may decide to start wearing short mini-skirts and claim that it is not pritsus! After all, they are not prancing around in bathing suits. A skirt covering the knees at all times is the minimum standard for not being considered a prutsa.
SJSinNYC, if something is not kosher, it is treif.
Oomis 1105, do not deceive yourself — Ribono shel Olam is much more judgmental than you would like like to think — He loves mishpat.
As far as the two types of women you mentioned go: yes, there is a difference — a difference between a small prutsa and a big one.
Oomis 1105, if a woman’s dress does not conform to the minimum requirements of Halacha — it is pritsus. It is ossur for a woman to be seen dressed that way. If she is married, her husband can divorce her for that. Actually, it a mitsva for him to do so, if she refuses to behave herself.July 8, 2010 3:25 am at 3:25 am in reply to: Breach in Tznius: Recent affliction attacking Klal Yisroel #1025597
Mosherose, look in K’subos 75A and Sanhedrin 21A.July 7, 2010 1:49 pm at 1:49 pm in reply to: Breach in Tznius: Recent affliction attacking Klal Yisroel #1025527
Missme, we should be moche more. If they fill the pressure from within the frum community, we may turn the situation around.July 7, 2010 11:44 am at 11:44 am in reply to: Breach in Tznius: Recent affliction attacking Klal Yisroel #1025523
Wolf, if a woman comes to a store and buys nontsniusdic outside clothing, chances are she is buying it to wear it outside, and not bsoh beisa bifnei ba’ala. And the storeowner assists her thereby in her aveira.
No Rabbi made me frum. Why don’t you and many others look in Parshas Kedoshim, at the mitsva “ve’ahavta le’reyacha kamocha”?
Like I said, this is absolutely unfair to pasel all BTs because of one case. There are antisemites out there, who hate Yidden because of one Jewish crook, they, allegedly, knew! Let’s be different from them.
Had you dealt with hundreds of failed marriages, which ended badly because one partner was a BT, then you would have the right to speak like that. But if not…
Let’s have some Ahavas Yisroel, some Dan chaveiro lekaf z’hus.July 7, 2010 4:19 am at 4:19 am in reply to: Breach in Tznius: Recent affliction attacking Klal Yisroel #1025520
Kasha, Kimchis had a good chumra, but i t i s n o t a hiyuv for every Bas Yisroel.
Health, you said that Bt should marry only BT.Why?– because of one case you know. You are saying that all BTs should be discriminated against because of one case you know of!
I said that this is what some people think. And for many of them, it is not even a positive thing — they think the BTs are too nervous.
Health, you can not pass judgement on all BT because of one case you know. This is totally unfair. Plus, some people have the opposite impression — that BT have more Yiras Shamaim than many FFB (look at some posts above).
BP Totty, that’s why the frum Jews are called “hareidim” — because they shake due to their fear of Heaven. It is a madreiga to reach. Just some BT have to work on managing their fear of HaShem-related nervousness.July 6, 2010 7:47 pm at 7:47 pm in reply to: Breach in Tznius: Recent affliction attacking Klal Yisroel #1025464
Kasha, Kimhis is not a proof. She was machmir on herself.
There are heteirim for the ben niddah shaila. The whole reason for not marrying bnei nidah is because a r e a l ben nidah has a blemish on his neshoma(soul), which is manifested by bad character traits, especially, brazeness. Well, it is known that there are a lot of BT who have sterling middos(character traits). And, generaly speaking, we don’t see that BTs have worse middos then FFBs. And there is a reason for it. I am not going to elaborate here.
Health,why?July 2, 2010 12:01 pm at 12:01 pm in reply to: Breach in Tznius: Recent affliction attacking Klal Yisroel #1025426
Eich yaradnu p’laim? — I wonder. Till 3 years ago (approx.), it was almost unheard of, that frum women in the streets of Flatbush would be dressed in untsniusdic skirts. What happened??July 1, 2010 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm in reply to: Breach in Tznius: Recent affliction attacking Klal Yisroel #1025412
Apushtayid, women by not dressing tsniusdic cause forbidden thoughts, yetser horah for gilui arayos R’L and etc. — serious issurim, serious problems. For men not to stick out is an inyan, but is is by far not as chomur as the issues with nontsnius regarding women,July 1, 2010 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm in reply to: Breach in Tznius: Recent affliction attacking Klal Yisroel #1025410
aries2756, there are different ways to encorage people to do mitsvos, but it is emes that for a woman to be seen untsniusdic is a lo ta’ase(lifnei iver). It might be that with some women it is not the point you want to advance, but it is the emes.
Avadai, it is a huge mitsva to support talmidei chachomim. But, it does not mean that everyone who decides to learn full-time is entitled to be supported forever by the public. For sure, he should not demand it openly. Only about big talmidei chachomim does the Gemora say that bnie iram met’suvim laasos melachtam.
Kasha. A) The Rambam does not say that the government has to support it. On the contrary, he is the big mahmir in this field. B) Just ask anyone — most Chareidi men are in full-time kollel.
If there were Malchus Beis Dovid in E.Y., would it have to support financially anyone who declares that he wants to be in kollel? The Halacha is — no. Just for for the start, look in Shulchan Aruch, Y.D., Hilchos Talmud Torah (246:21) and in the Nossei Keilim.
Kasha, as who works and pays taxes in E.Y. goes, just do some research.
The Chareidim are entitled to the funding? According to what? — according to the laws of the evil Zionists.
Kasha, you seem to be a sincere fellow, but here are some simple facts about E.Y.:
Most Chareidim do not work, but rather stay in kollel for life. They and their families are supported by the Zionist government, and do not pay taxes.
Kasha, it is an undeniable fact that all those E.Y. kollel people would not be able to stay in kollel, if not for the government money.
Did you ever wonder why in Europe 150 years ago so few people were in kollel in contrast to modern-day Israel? Because the Russian Czar and the Austrian Kaiser would not pay for it. The Israeli government does.June 17, 2010 1:19 pm at 1:19 pm in reply to: Breach in Tznius: Recent affliction attacking Klal Yisroel #1025318
Kasha, in addition to Rabbi Forst, it is Rabbi Dovid Cohen from Brooklyn ( unless you are from Williamsburg, where they have such a minhag).June 17, 2010 3:38 am at 3:38 am in reply to: Breach in Tznius: Recent affliction attacking Klal Yisroel #1025300
Not everbody holds that a lady has to wear stockings. For sure, wearing see-through stokings does not accomplish anything. See-through covering is not considered a proper covering halachicaly, and it does not look more tsniusdik either. It is just a silly chumra — to wear this type of stockings.May 27, 2010 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm in reply to: Breach in Tznius: Recent affliction attacking Klal Yisroel #1025198
Gavra, it is a halacha in S.A. and in Kitsur S.A. I do not know where you get your hilukim from — it obligatory and applies to all women.
And I am not trying to mislead anyone!May 27, 2010 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm in reply to: Breach in Tznius: Recent affliction attacking Klal Yisroel #1025194
SJSinNYC, the Ramoh is in Even HaEzer Siman 1, Seef 13. Kitzur Shulchan Aruch paskens like that le’Halacha in 145:5.
Another ma’amar Chazal for you to explore: “Ein l’ha isha ksheira ele mi she osa r’tson ba’ala”. Obviously, there are also limitations to this ma’amar.May 26, 2010 11:58 pm at 11:58 pm in reply to: Breach in Tznius: Recent affliction attacking Klal Yisroel #1025165
SJSinNYC, 1)Ramoh paskens that not only men have an obligation to get married, but also women, albeit, for a different reason.
2)I am sorry to tell you, but a lot of your shitos appear to be straight from the feminist idealogy — we need, however, to follow The Hashkofos HaTorah.May 25, 2010 12:53 pm at 12:53 pm in reply to: Breach in Tznius: Recent affliction attacking Klal Yisroel #1025113
Some people were trying to dig up here lenient shitos (opinions). We do not pasken like those shitos. If we start looking for shvere (fraught with difficulty)opinions in any area of Halacha, one can matir (permit) wild things. And some of those wild things are surely not going to be liked by the modern-inclined people who try to dig up shvere kulos in the field of tsnius. T h e a n s w e r to all the l e n i e n t o p i n i o n s is that w e d o n’ t p a s k e n l i k e t h a t.
As far as the claim that men see non-Jewish women in very untsniusdic clothing — the immodestly dressed Jewish women still can cause temptation/provocation:
1) if at that moment the non-tsnius. lady which happens to be in front of the man is non-tsnius. bas Isroel — she will cause the problems, and not the non-Jew 8 feet away (especially, if the man is in a place where the only women are frum ones — like a frum house);
2) he can happen to notice the non-tsnius. Jewish woman out of the crowd (especially, because the frum women wear fancy sheitels, nice clothing; some wear a lot of make-up);
3)he might see an non-tsnius. non-Jew, and it can cause problems, and then 3 seconds later, he might see a non-tsnius. Yiddishe, and it will make it worse.