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Dear Zaphod,
I’m a big fan! Please write me a rant being disrespectful to me. Certain posters are shying away from being critical of my posts.
Dear Avira,
What is your source that the Torah doesn’t allow video or photo evidence?
“… doesn’t look right for a Ben Torah”
As a Ben Torah, you worry about appearances?
It’s very important to some people that their dating remains private. Especially if they don’t want any of their wives to find out.
“Please save these quotes to your computer, for future reference.”
I respectfully disagree.
This is too important to just put on my hard drive. It should be reposted weekly.
And besides, I have no more storage space with all the useful quotes that I’ve noticed recently.
Oh no! I believe coffee’s account was hacked!
Dear Avram,
Your talking about open exclusion. I’m talking about those that live in yeshivish areas, send to yeshivish schools, et cetera and aren’t really frum anymore. They are kept in the community if they keep up appearances. But nobody considers them yeshivish.
An example.
Yehudah: Yeshivish people don’t watch TV on shabbos.
Chaim: XYZ had the game on last shabbos.
Yehudah: Nobody considers XYZ yeshivish.MO doesn’t do this with observance. Which makes more sense to me. Because in every single community, observance is not nearly as uniform as people think it is.
“the culture, leadership, communal/social norms, are all about Torah and Hashem, with nothing else mixed in”
This is garbage. You know there is a politics obsession just from reading this site. You know there is a major struggle over how to view sitting in yeshiva and learning. You know that there is all kinds of internet guidelines that are being ignored. You know that there is all kinds of hefkeirus among the youth including married couples. You know that it is a rarity to go to a chasuna and see everyone talking in learning. You know that a top yungerman is not expected to finish the mesechta he is learning this zman. You know the yeshivos are tying themselves in knots trying to address the emunah curriculum problem. You know that nobody sets a standard for what kind of growth justifies sitting in a kollel. You know that davenig on time is getting really out of hand.
And somehow, the manner of dress and pool use by MO is a lack of observance. But by us, it’s just a gashmiyos problem.
Complete hypocrisy.
Dear Avira,
Why does the percentages matter to you or me? If the Mo is what the coming generations of yeshivaleit are heading toward, why would wo gloat about the present? Maybe MO is closer to hitting rock bottom and turning things around. What is needed here is an ideal that the YV really holds to that we can grasp as a preventative form sliding towards a less observant modernity. I’m not convinced that there is one.
Dear Avram,
A quick list of what they could be tried for;
1) The yeshivishe velt is abandoning the yeshiva and the yeshiva bochurim.
2) The appreciation of a Gaon who really knows his stuff, has fallen below the kollelman who spends a decade distorting a sugya and then tries to sell his chumros or whatever.
3) Some ugly divorces in prominent families are completely disregarding gittin and more.
4) The present leadership vacuum.
Most of all, and pertinent to many threads on this site, the equation of the right as Torah and the left as the Antitorah. Instead of talking Torah, yeshivahliet are becoming embroiled in culture wars that they understand little about. I’m not attacking their stance as much as them abandoning their great potential for such trivial matters.
The reason the MO bashing is toleratated in this context is because the yeshivish or chassidish yidden who are slipping are just called not yeshivish or chassidish. It’s an easy fix which MO has been unable to enact. Which must cause great displeasure to hashem. Well, he can always start a new ‘who is a jew’ battle, to cheer himself up.
Dear Always,
I really doubt it.
The YV and MO are on the same slide from the traditional past to the impending modernity. YV isn’t producing larger families and MO isn’t producing more balanced families. It is a causality of their relationship with the past. They are just holding on as much as they are. There is no reason for me to think that Lakewood isn’t sliding toward Teaneck. Both in terms of the pros and the cons.
Dear Ujm,
Rav Aharon says they make allowances to keep the people attached somewhat to Torah. It could be applied to today’s Lakewood as well.
Dear Avira,
The only reason the yesivishe velt is not being tried for institutionalized sin and heresy, is because they themselves spend too much energy on prosecuting random yidden for institutionalized sin and heresy. It’s a pathetic situation. And it says a lot that you miss the irony.
Dear Avira,
Nobody sees the inside of your head. At this point, you might as well be trolling.
Dear Lakewood,
So you don’t have a life and would spend your time looking at obscene pictures. It’s not for me and it’s not for most people. Only the extremely secular or the extremely religious normalize this garbage.
Dear Ujm,
I can’t look it up right now. But isn’t that the one that Rav Moshe forbids perpetuating or initiating a relationship?
Dear Takah,
There are more serious things in the world to worry about. How did you guess?
There are many other reasons one may choose to never marry.
Dear Ujm,
So Rabbis Schwab and Soloveitchik disagree. The struggle they describe is still on going. The Lakewood led resurgence doesn’t change the dynamics. What is your point?
Dear Americin,
The Netziv and Reb Chaim strongly believed in knowing the entire Torah. Volozhin started each mesechta at the begining and continued until the end. They were against the musar movement. They did not advocate halachah like today. They openly displayed friendship to all kinds of yidden that they vehemently disagreed with. And they were much less modern in the nineteenth century.
Dear Lakewhut,
Having read over the whole thread, it seems to me that your only making one real point. The college experience has drastically changed across the USA since the 1950s. It’s foolish of the MO to still tie together Torah and college.
Fair point.
Another weird halachah from ujm.
It is literally anything but a human brain. Do you think you are a robot?
Dear Lakewood,
Or they have a better life than a silly screen can offer them.
Dear Square,
Why are the parents choosing for their child? I know of some great guys whose biggest problem is that they trust their moms way to much with their own life.
Dear Avira,
Let me correct one minor point. A mechallel shabbos is still part of am yisrael. He can be included in a minyan. But if he does it ?????? than he cannot be counted.
Dear Karl,
“only true Torah frum will survive”
Who is that today? Better, who will that be tomorrow? It’s a small number. Being part of the MO or the YV doesn’t guarantee any level of observance.
“This is like two people on a sinking boat, arguing whether to sail to the shore or to try to close the hole. Try both and see what works.”
Dear Always,
I couldn’t agree with you on this more.
Which begs the question, what do both bring to the table?
Dear Lakewhut,
It is common in MO shuls for people to daven from their phones.
Dear Marxist,
Davening late wasn’t an excuse. It arose among those who were in shul a whole morning (i. e. From well before dawn until noon). The only question was what time was the better time to choose Tefillah over Torah. All the common folk davened early and went to work. These Chassidim would start davening around the same time as the workday. And they davened long and loud for hours.
One big difference is that in MO shuls I am always greeted and given invitations. The more chareidei shuls think that if you found the shul, you can or did find everything else.
I get the sense that decorum in shul, goes by the person not the affiliation or congregation. If the Rabbi teaches the people to have respect, than they will. Or at least thy might. A serial shul-talker will do so even when he finds himself in a shul with nobody to talk to.
I don’t really hang around a city long enough to get a sense of shul-talking. Though bein hazmanim is worse everywhere.
Dear Yserbius,
I’ve been in shuls of all stripes of orthodox across half the country. MO shuls generally daven early and fast. It’s great! Get up, guaranteed service, and a full day still ahead!
“Mishnas Rabi Aharon is in any Shul and Bais Medrash worth its salt.”
Important and popular sefer, but your really stretching it with that one.
Dear Avira,
The problem with sourcing your statements is that you are constantly discussing the intentions or beliefs of others. How could you be so sure, what other people, especially whole communities, really want or think?
PS If you can read minds through the internet, head over to tzaddik/kidnapper threads. There is a guy in Flatbush who is either a major hero or a supervillain. Since it is unanimously agreed that he is not your average joe acting in a totally average manner, we need a mind reader to arbitrate what is clearly a major public issue.
Dear Avira,
It is literally on this page! Twice! How many posts do you miss per thread? No wonder……..
Dear Dr.,
So what do you say your to your chavrusa when she had to reschedule a date?
There isn’t enough time to shmooze by an MO weekday service.
Dear Coffee,
So Chassidim can be compared to the unlearned MO if they would stoop to the level of late-risers. Sounds about right. ?
A Quick Quote of Amirican Yeshivish’s post above:
Avira
With all due respect, untill 20 years ago the chassiddeshe rabonnim were screaming about mixed swimming in Miami where a big oilam going there where not beig makpid since it wasn’t at home
(Almost like not being makpid on yoshon when not at home)
And it wasn’t just the Bubbys and Zeidys it was the children and eineklach coming to visit Bubby and Zeidy.Some last random thoughts then (hopefully) I’m done with the topic.
One choshuve talmid chacham was aware of this historical fact. He told me that it wasn’t about levity. They didn’t have plumbing. And the river was a way to cool off.
I found some sources from two hundred years ago, about specific hours that the men would stay away from the water sources. But these were all in small shtetlach.
Ujm, maybe they weren’t observant. I don’t know. My point is that they weren’t MO. Maybe what happened was that the observant copied the non-observant.
Avira, the Steipler’s letter is later. It was a major issue then. And not just MO. It took around ten years to get it under control. You see, sometimes breaches in Torah can be contained.
Lakewhut, so MO has a rabbi problem. Mixed swimming is a casualty of that. A yeshivish person who insists on mixed swimming or some other issur will go somewhere without a real leader of a rabbi. Last generation, that was MO. I’m not convinced it will remain that way. Or even if it still is that way.
There are three different chapters here.
First is a hundred years ago. It’s recorded as a given without any fanfare. Maybe these people were really not observant.
Second is after the war. It’s being protested in all (American) circles that included observant families.
Third is these days. It seems to be a major issue by MO but barely anywhere else.
Sources:
Chapter 1. After I came across a photograph in some shtetl titled ‘A hot day by the river which was clearly mixed, I started taking note of it. It can be found in memories from all over. One source I feel comfortable sharing here is All For The Boss. Ruchoma Shain describes the dilemma of not being able to join her friends on their trips to Coney Island.
Chapter 2. Many rabbonim put out letters for their own kehillos about the seriousness of mixed swimming. Not even half of them were MO.
Chapter 3. Mixed swimming is a common lament among and toward the MO. I have no idea. In my whole life, I’ve had very little interaction with MO on their turf. There was a post today that claimed this was a problem by Chassidim up until twenty years ago. And there has been isolated stories all over.
Point being, whatever it is, was, or will be, mixed swimming has no direct correlation to the differences between the MO or the YV. My whole intention is only towards this one line.
Dear Ujm,
I have boyfriends. My sister has girlfriends. What is not tznius about that?
Dear Mentsch,
I read it that your post is not claiming that all older singles are picky.
Dear Ubiquitin,
Exactly! Almost everyone can afford some type of chasuna. If they are willing to realize what a chasuna is all about. And if they refuse that but say, I must have this and that at my wedding; how much more they will be thinking I must have this and that in a life partner. Such people should stay of shidduchim. They need to rethink.
The one I’m seeing.
None of us have to know the gender. Besides, it’s not tznius.
Not quick enough.
Dear Avira,
Your last paragraph is incomprehensible to me.
“MO was born” When?
“haskalah” What does that word connotate to you?
“It’s leaders” Who?
“including” Two presidents of YU. What does that have to do with MO at large?
“Revel” You must mean that he was a talmid of Telshe. But still, he was a man of stubbornly independent thoughts and methods. Not really under any outside influence.
“Belkin” was big on the greek classics. And completely not involved in day to day leadership of anything besides one yeshiva/college.
“Their attitudes” What do these two have in common?
“taken straight from” Because they read their works?
“maskilim” Any specific names?
“believed” Again, boiling down to itty bitty belief. Who knows what anybody really believes? [Besides for you. Asking for a friend.]
Postscript: If MO means the crowd that you grew up with, and the YV is just the yeshiva that gained from and align yourself with, I would agree with you. The fact is that there is much, much, more. And if we were to ask the MO communities that are failing (Just those that cling to observance. Privately face to face.) they would justify their existence on you and others that went on to yeshiva and made it. Where you in YU and are just annoyed about it? Because your not making any point or much sense besides that.