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Dear Avira,
The list is not at all exhaustive. The point is that these are all serious endeavors in the modern day. Whereas, our ancestors barely thought of these things.
One Senior Talmid Chacaham that I’m close with had to attend one of two fundraisers. It didn’t work out for him to go on the three day cruise, so he was at the pidyon peter chamor instead. He remarked that on the cruise he would have been involved in Torah non-stop. Whereas he ended up just watching someone else do a mitzvah.
The point is that the yeshiveliet today are much more involved in these things even if, or maybe especially if they know less than the learned of previous generations.
Dear Avira,
On mixed swimming. Nobody here is condoning it at all. You see it as a development of MO. That is not true historically. (And according to Amirican’s post, it wasn’t true currently until this [Mine, not yours.] generation.) The fact is that mixed swimming happened a lot a hundred years ago. It’s in many biographies, recollections, and observer accounts. And they mention it off hand as if it was normal. I can’t tell you why it was normal for them. But it was. Of course, we can assume that all rabbonim were fire and brimstone against it, but there isn’t much talk about it. Maybe the rabbonim weren’t aware. Or it was done in places with little leadership. Or maybe it was much more innocent than what we think of it. I don’t really care. The fact is that it was done before MO became a separate group. And later it was an issue in all circles of NY orthodoxy, and the rabbonim reacted forcefully.
Dear Avira,
I can’t get any clarity out of your posts. It’s hard to project what level of the yeshiva hashkafa you’ve absorbed. The yeshiva is not a very regulated place. All kinds of behaviors and perspectives are tolerated. Any Rosh Yeshiva who is worth his salt is not afraid of a contentious talmid. You seem to think that the yeshiva is like an engineered social experiment. That is far from the truth. So I”ll just post what I take issue with.
1) Mixed swimming is documented in many testimonials. And it comes across like it wasn’t a big deal to anyone.
2) In our day everything all Jewish rituals are being taken seriously. Uman and Meron. Techeiles and black on black. All kinds of kashrus. Eruvin and techumin. Shluach hakan and peter chamor. Everything and anything can be everyone’s business tomorrow. These were fields for the expert or those with the know how. Today, all of us are taking up positions that we know little about.
3) European Jewry endured a lot. I don’t know what you think Haskalah was or wasn’t.
4) There were big debates about how much the poskim have authority over tradition. There were communities that were too traditional. As well as communities that were too transitional.
5) Historically, the ‘Gedolim’ is not the same as having the most influence or the most talmidim.
6) Nowhere was I discussing a new torah ch”v. All these letters show is a call to basic observance. Not a hashkafa or a lifestyle. [I feel like this is where your missing a lot of info. Your making a schism out of what is almost universal.]
7) MO did not grow out of what I know as haskalah. If you thing observance was absolutely amazing before haskalah, am I to believe that the seventeenth century letters denouncing immodesty were made up ex-nihilo?
8) What’s the difference between a Rabbi condoning or throwing up his hands and saying what can I do?
9) If tznius stops at gender seperation in day to day life, than I concede that Chasidim are fully compliant with tznius. Maybe the most since ???? ??? ?????.
Dear Avira,
My point is that your mixing up today’s branches of Orthodox Judaism with a hundred years ago. Mixed swimming was an issue in many parts of Europe. It is hard to discern any country that was free of it. Even by those that were otherwise observant and had great torah leaders. It spread in America just like every other leniency did. As recently as the 1950s this was an issue even by chassidim! Teaching girls gemara came about in Europe from several different sources. Scholastic pursuit is an old discussion. The Modern Orthodox have not contributed much to this discussion besides for the claim that it is more of a necessity in our day. Etc. Etc. It happens to be that there is a relationship between these issues to the and the Modern/Yeshivish/Chassidish divisions of Orthodoxy. But it is a casual one. (??? ??? ?? ????). Not an historical one.
Therefore, when you use the teachings of your revered Rebbe to claim the superiority of the YV over MO, your making a mistake. These teachings did not create the difference in the level of strengths between the communities. Rather they are a reaction to those very differences. In sum, the yeshivishe shittos of a hundred years ago could be used in support of MO much more than to oppose it. Like you say, ?????? ???.
My proof of it is, that to any insider the YV currently reflects very little of it’s Litvish roots. It is more and more a reflection of taking yiddishkeit very seriously. And with it, it is constantly borrowing and upholding other cultures that are about being very, very. frum in a visible manner…. Which makes MO even less appealing and so on and so on.
If you believe that this is the way of the Torah, than go ahead and work on it’s enactment. I’ll cheer for you with a full heart. But like much of Chassidus and almost every Jewish group, you totally fail when you try saying that this was always a historical truth. It’s simply not true. It does not mean your worldview is wrong. You can say, that now that modernity has given us such stark choices between right and wrong, of course we must fully commit to what is right and not associate with what is wrong. Even though we may forfeit all that worthwhile in the eyes of modern man OOPS! person.
But as soon as you claim this is what the Torah always was, your wrong. Even if you think your Rebbe told you so. It could still be true. Just not historically true.
Dear Ujm,
Was there anytime that you invoked halacha on this site for something that wasn’t your personal viewpoint? There must be several dozen threads that you claimed halacha and did not respond when challenged.
Quick quote from the Rambam: A teaching from a chacham should be examined at length before concluding it is incorrect.
Dear Avira,
Maybe if you weren’t a tzukiguminer you would have a foggy idea of what your talking about. In the remnant of the Litvish world that barely survives in today’s yeshivos, it is a given that there was a Torah Velt before the Gaon.
Dear Always,
DeSantis and Education?!?!?!? Then why not Jean Pierre?
Jew hating has a place on every side of the aisle. If you disagree with that, you have zero political acumen. Please explain the need to bait posters on a Jewish site with this garbage.
Dear Ujm,
Totally agreed. Much like The Netziv (or Rav Chaim Soloveitchik) was the polar antithesis of the yeshiveshe yidden in our day.
Dear Avira,
It’s not a fair question. One of the formative statements of Modern Orthodoxy, was Rav Hirsch’s claim that spiritual success is completely a matter of olam hazah. Your complicating what should be the simple part.
Dear Amirican,
It seems that you are blowing up your case. Being in Brisk without getting into shiur is not relevant to other yeshivos.
Quick quote from Reb Yehudah Jacobs zatzal. If you can’t afford a chasunah, you should not be in shidduchim.
Look at that! A quick quote from Samuel Taylor Coleridge!
It’s embarrassing to be so personal about this stuff. Some people are different. Now what?
Maybe this can be less violent. Two questions:
1) Is anybody counting the wayward members of the third generation of yeshivish families as LWMO? If not, that what are they?
2) Are these same wayward yidden being used to inflate the success and growth of the chareidi world? If yes, isn’t this a double standard in what we are defining as growth?
Dear Dr,
That was not an opinion. It’s somewhere between a literary fact and an imaginary fact.
Those articles did not raise the bar on the online popularity drivel masquerading as authentic Torah. It’s just a different genre.
Dear Amirican,
The hefkeirus comes from being more independent and mature. It’s called post-adolescent.
BMG has a strong mussar regimen?!?
That out of the way, I think your right that there is more to gain by staying by the American Rosh Yeshiva for five years instead of learning in Israel.
Dear American,
It seems like in your days learning Kodshim meant getting to Lakewood older. It’s not really like that anymore. Bachurim go to Reb Tzvi and Reb Sholom at twenty. And are in BMG at 22-23. If some learn longer, kol hakovod to to them!
Dear American,
Is this about your boys specifically, or today’s generation?
Dear American,
Those who stay in EY longer because they did not get into shiur, is tiny minority. This does not apply to most groups of bachurim. As in, those who stay in America, learn in Israeli yeshivos, head to the Mir, Reb Tzvi, or really any place besides Brisk. Is Brisk even one percent of all yeshiva bachurim over twenty one? Now subtract all those that get into shiur within a year, as well as those that are not there for shiur. Also consider those that change their plans and come back or move on. additionally, those that are in Brisk for life are eligible to marry into Israeli Brisker families. So they don’t all affect the American Shidduchim scene. Besides for the serious guys who are not going to stop learning to close to twenty five to date no matter what yeshiva they are in.
All trolling should be this much fun!
Could I get the job being anti leftist only? Without the Torah angle, I’ll be much more extreme.
So Daas Torah is a relic from before Leftism. Now just being anti leftist would suffice.
Dear American,
You still did not elaborate how Brisk delays bachurim from starting to date.
Dear Ujm,
Not driving on shabbos is permitted.
“A question that probably some of you are thinking of if you’re totally into that world, which I find to be very interesting. So, supposedly we hit the body with a tremendous, whether it’s ultraviolet or just very powerful light, and I think you said that hasn’t been checked, but you’re going to test it. And then I said supposing you brought the light inside the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way. And I think you said you’re going to test that, too. Sounds interesting, right?”
“And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning, because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it’d be interesting to check that, so that you’re going to have to use medical doctors with, but it sounds interesting to me. So, we’ll see, but the whole concept of the light, the way it kills it in one minute. That’s pretty powerful.”
….in line with Daas Torah. No leftists…
Honestly, which one really drives your agenda?
Dear Reb Eliezer,
You fought in the Alamo?
You seem to be under the Chareidi that only illusions exist.
Dear Zushy,
“NO ONE approves …….”
Except the people who believe they did the right thing.
“EVERY single gadol……”
Except for those who did not join in forbidding technology.
So…
Denying that a problem exists is not a solution.
Calling it fake news does not make it untrue.
This is not a new find.
Way to go, Josef!!! L’chaim!
Dear Avira,
If the girls don’t go to seminary, who will indoctrinate them into being yeshivish? And then our families may commit the three cardinal sins of being aware of Modernity, Chabad, or Zionism.
??? ????
Dear Zushy,
Both points are doubtful.
Dear Yeshiva,
Maybe this is the smartest the OP could come up with. How is one to know what is stupid?
Dear Avira,
Bereishes Rabbah22; 12 ?? ??? ??? ??? ??
What if he isn’t halachically obligated “to be ready” to be married by time?
Dear Always,
Your stretching things.
Dear Hashem,
Please chill out. We are only human. The Yeshiva World blocks robots.
According to his bio he should be ashamed.
What is Judaism really about, adhering to the Torah or being against liberalism?
How could there be an echo in a black hole?
Dear Always,
Your looking at it from when this year starts as a maximum. That is correct. A year cannot be more than a year. But the discussion is about the recommended age. So, we don’t have any evidence for when to start counting the year.
“What would the ancient Rabbis say…”
Your implying that they would be listened to.
pesachim 49a
Dear Avram,
Thanks for taking the time to work through my posts. I’m using this minute to respond to the simple stuff. Hopefully I’ll get to the real stuff before shabbos. So, just some bullet points.
-I was intentionally vague because I’m not aware of what this is all about.
– What paragraph? The one you asked me to clarify. Sorry for the confusion. Please reread that post.
-Later we can discuss if my distinction about religion not being for one person is correct. I was trying to say that religion is not just a purely philosophical exercise.
-I’m aware of the contradiction. Later.
-About the OP. I’m not sure if this is an imitation of those other attempts, or is it an attempt to be more orthodox. Also, it seems pointless to have to go back to ethics to simply say, “what so and so is doing is unacceptable”.
-He has excluded those who are unethical. My question is if he has religious conviction in his own philosophical conclusion.
– I equate personal religion with syncretism.
On the last three points:
1. We’ve debated this before. I would love to continue it with you.
2. What people think is religiously important, has an outsized impact in how the people form the community. But what was or is critical to the religion, is not the communal part. An example. Our communities revolve around the imperative of having yeshivos. It affects so much of our lifestyle. But the goal is not to be a ben yeshiva. The goal is to be a ben torah.
3. A true religion wouldn’t permanently shift it’s goal because of the failings of it’s adherents. The religion is more vibrant when the group unifies to participate in the religious goals.I think I got to everything. I’m not convinced I’m right about all of it or even most of it.
Dear Brooklyn,
Just having numbers does not make it a statistical problem. There is no reason to believe in the age gap theory.
Dear Avira,
That’s a good question and it cuts to the heart of the matter. But its not clear to me why it helps. The answer to me is a clear NO. But if it was an orthodox conversion it would also be a NO.
Dear Always,
Besides for the conjecture, you also erred. This sugyos are about betrothal because that when these
legal dilemmas arise. But the discussion today is about marriage and homemaking. You hinted that it was a year later. But that is a minimum, not a maximum. So in actuality it was probably later.