n0mesorah

Dear Arso,

Gur started to change already before the war. And they had already moved to Eretz Yisrael. There never was consistency in Gur. Even when their Rebbe could rightly be called the giant of the generation. I don’t know what you know about Gur. But they seem to me to be a lot further out than Chabad. Especially in Ikkari Emunah.

Satmar never had a heavy emphasis on The Baal Shem’s Torah. It was a tumultuous hundred years until it became what we see now. They may now settle into a new archetype. But there is no comparison to Chabad which goes back centuries.

My point with the Sanz dynasties is that it’s hard to read into them now. It is easy to discern which ones were authentic to the Divrei Chaim before the war, and which were more creative and visionary like. But now, I can’t really tell what they are about. Though their success is impressive.

Chabad was and still is primarily about the spread of Chassidus to bring Geulah to the the world through Complete Emunah. This can be found in the seforim of two hundred plus years ago and this is still on the lips of every devout Chabadtsker. This overrides any other consideration to them. If you have a problem with that premise, than you simply haven’t studied it. So much ink and agitation was put into this concept without ever reaching a full schism. You simply have no right to advocate for schism now, without thinking better of yourself than any Chassid or Misnagid who ever lived.

The fact that Chabad embraces innovation, modernity, and technology, is not critical to Chassidus. How one dresses or talks is not the reasons the Besht revealed himself. Nor was it to give twenty five gabbaim a job or to lead tish at a late hour to some thousand disconnected people.

Between the wars Lubavitch was into outreach. Maybe even earlier. That was a real thing in Lita. Telshe, Navardok, and others were all over it too.

Besides for his views, he helped a lot of Israeli politicians to get meetings and the like in America. And got nothing in return.

The Moshiach emphasis started right after the war. Before the last rebbe. It wasn’t uncommon then. Especially after the initial events in Eretz Yisrael. It waned elsewhere. But in Chabad it grew and grew. That is the Chabad way. They hold on tighter when others let go. You are seeing that in your debates with them.

The Rebbe helped out many yeshivos. Particularly, Torah Vdaas. He worked for mikvahs and mitzvah observance across the country. [That was the norm in post war America. Isolation was not an ideal then. Orthodoxy had to be saved.]

Could be he wanted to be accepted by all, but he didn’t say bad about any other leaders publicly or privately. If he had an issue, he spoke to the gadol directly and frankly.

And his followers never threatened to kill them. Or beat them up.

Dear Avira,

” we don’t daven that the whole world will know moshiach”

I do. 15th bracha of the Amidah. V’karno Tarum. I must be the only one…. Because even CS missed this.

Dear Qwerty,

You are being evasive. If you really think Chabad is tying to put a real plan in place, than there has to be someone who planned it to begin with. That is pure reason. Please answer.

I spent a lot of time talking one on one with Chabadzkers. Unlike many other groups, they definitely do not think of themselves as the only authentic Jews or anything like that. Lubavitch truly considers all Jews a great deal.

You would do better to claim the reverse. Chabad thinks that all Jews are Chabad!

Dear Yankel,

“Re
used socks
Please check the original post .
It was not referring to hasidic socks at all .

It was referring to changing IKAREI EMUNA , things which are the ABSOLUTE FOUNDATIONS of our belief , like used socks ”

I take exception to your posts having anything to do with Ikarei Emunah.

Dear Qwerty,

This point that is obvious to you, would only be rational if there was one who planned the “carefully constructed plan” that this is “only a part of”? Who is this ‘planner’? Some secret society in 770? The Rebbe? The Previous Rebbe? The Baal Hatanya? The Baal Shem Tov? The Arizal? Moshe Rabbeinu? The Illuminati?

“..the plan is to keep Torah and Mitzvos SOLELEY BECAUSE HASHEM SAID TO.”

So why learn Torah? Why are we spending two millennia in exile? Why do we keep mitzvos in the diaspora? Why do we value Torah knowledge above all other knowledge? There is no reason to answer me. Just keep doing whatever you were doing because Hashem said so.

But I have one question. Where did Hashem say to hate?

Dear Yankel,

“The attitude of habad hasidim toward their rebbe exceeds by far , the attitude of other talmidim towards their rebbe , and even the attitude of other hasidim towards their rebbe.”

Completely untrue. Maybe you were born yesterday. Maybe you will be born again tomorrow.

That is the proper attitude of a talmid for a rebbe. Everything the rebbe says is unequivocally the Word of the Torah. (A wise student knows not to retain everything as is.) And it is only half of what was Reb Boruch Ber to Reb Chaim. The difference with Chabad is this. You can be in almost any yeshiva or chassidus and not be a talmid of the rebbe. In most places the people in the group that actually follow the leader are a minority. IN Chabad, you have to follow the rebbe. There is no being Chabad, without being a follower of the rebbe.

Dear Arso,

“Just look at all the anti chareidi movements that they gave birth to.”

“Would you mind explaining that because I have no idea what you’re talking about?”

It is a huge can of worms. The antiorthodox used former Lubavitchers as a cover to avoid conflict with the actual Chassidic groups that birthed them.

Dear Arso,

“I’m specifically talking about – and I’ve said this now a number of times – the Lubavich claim that when other non-Lubavich chassidim say the words “the rebbe” they are openly referring only to the Lubavicher rebbe, not to their own rebbe.”

And I knew that. But they think it in a cosmological sense. As opposed to your standard Lakewooder who always thinks of the R”Y ZT”L as Rav Aharon in a literal sense.

Dear Mods,

Some of what I posted didn’t go through. [Also, two threads disappeared.] Including a post to you about moderation.

What happened?

1) Never received.
2) Went to spam.
3) Moderated.

Dear Avira,

Mendelssohn rejecting the Chukim? He explicitly writes that he would reject reason first. But he doesn’t have to as he explains at lentgh.

You know nothing about The Moreh Nevuchim and why it was written.

Dear Avira,

The Chassam Sofer was against Mendelssohn. But he was not outspoken about it. It wouldn’t have been tolerated. Mendelssohn was still a shining paragon for yidden throughout Europe.

Dear Choosid,

I only know of the AI ban in two communities. And even there, it is not across the board.

And, Chatbot’s seem to terrible jobs. Besides for art, they seem to have little value and even less of a future.

Dear Yankel,

The first step of a Navi is that he comes with the Dvar Hashem and says you should do such or not do such and so on. (According to one poster he has to use the words ‘Ko Amar Hashem’.) It is of no consequence to anybody who the navi did not speak to if he is a prophet or not. So even if The Rebbe predicted the Gulf War with prophetic accuracy, he wouldn’t be a prophet since he did not convey Dvar Hashem.

Dear Qwerty,

In case you misunderstood. This talmid chochom would get the feeling the he was superior to Reb Dovid and he hated himself for feeling that way. When this talmid chochom speaks with any gadol it is with complete self nullification. He couldn’t do it with Reb Dovid.

Dear Arso,

Of course I know what you mean when you say ‘The Rebbe’. I assume that Lubavitchers also know what you mean. But it seems like you don’t get what they mean.

Dear Mdd,

Chabad has more haters because they don’t try to sell themselves to other groups. They do not violate their values for political benefit. And they don’t spend money to promote their power figures. There is no buying the rebbe’s vote because he doesn’t need the money. A dead leader really avoids political struggle.

Dear Two,

I completely disagree. Chabad is a modernization of what they were in Europe. Amshinov, Gur, Satmar, Stolin, Klausenberg, Munkatch, and most others have abandoned most of what they had in Europe and picked up completely new ideas. Just look at all the anti chareidi movements that they gave birth to.

Dear Jdf,

Hear! Hear! I am completely blown away by how many people’s life focus is legend, lie, and myth.

I am so bored here, I am getting numb to the nuance. We don’t do this with Gur, Satmar, or any other group, that has way less tradition and is even farther out there. If you want to know about Satmar or Gur, you learn their stuff. You don’t accost some stranger and hold him/her up for answers. It socially unacceptable.

Here is a FAQ:

Q Chabad is kefirah.
R These ideas are mainstream.

Q They take it too far.
R Come learn it.

Q That is a silly pshat.
R This is our view.

Q Nobody can really think that.
R The comprehensive theory sells itself.

Q You can’t learn this stuff without…
R We do and did it all the time.

Q I am not becoming Chabad.
R We didn’t offer. You asked.

Q Chabad is always in my face.
R Everybody is included in our worldview.

Q What makes you elitist
R You decided that by not educating yourself.

Dear Arso,

“Can anyone here point out a godol beYisroel over the last generations who pushed his greatness to the forefront as much as the Lubavicher rebbe did?”

No comment.

I have a low opinion of your posts. A lot of ‘the eye of the beholder’ judgements.

I know one special talmid chacham who told me that he couldn’t stand being around Rav Dovid Feinstein ZT”L. Because Rav Dovid humbled himself very much and he hated the feeling of being superior to Rav Dovid.

Dear Two,

Very much agreed. The point is very much to go around in circles and dodge the question of why yidden are hating on each other.

Some of that list yes and some no. The yes ones obscure the fact that they came around to the no group later.

Dear Arso,

The rationale to the Lubavitcher’s mind is that term ‘The Rebbe’ means one who spreads Toras Hachassidus. Since the rebbe of the other chassidim is not doing that, it must be that they are talking about the Chabadtzker Rebbe.

This kind of thinking is much more common in religious groups than people realize. We assume everyone means the same ‘Gedolei Hador’ and ‘Those that brought Torah to America’ and ‘Talmidei Chaachamim’ and ‘Klei Kodesh’. But there is a lot of difference. The more obvious the different meanings, the more we tend to think that the other groupthink is out of the pale. But these labels really carry no weight. You can even refer to your local dropout as the Gadol Hador. It won’t have any effect.

Dear Mdd.

The break over observance came well before their formulation of a comprehensive theology.

Dear Yankel,

You left out 2a 2b 2c 2d 2e 2f 2g and so on. Which is almost all the other Rebbes and other Gedolim putting their weight on the Lubavitcher Rebbe being moshiach. And then they switched sides. Then and only then, did the Rebbe get into his cryptic statements that you called proclamations. You are missing a lot of nuance here. It is not theology. It is anthropology. And you left out the Crown Heights riots. And the battle over the TTY. Plus the current rift among the mechanchim.

Either you know little about Chabad from the inside, or you are deliberately subverting the narrative.

To put my question straight. Who do you think is behind all these machinations? Chabad is a large and loose group. What makes them so organized and who is pulling the strings?