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Wait!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Is SQUARE ROOT a new name for an old timer?
Dear Zaphod,
That people aren’t backing down out of convenience.
Dear Yserbius,
People are keeping halacha for the fun of it! It is part of our cultural acceptance. I have to keep as more halacha than Family Jones to keep my sense of self or our standing in the community.
Dear Avira,
“Yabia, how is one close to Hashem when they flout His will and aren’t interested in keeping what He said to do?
Mesilas yeshorim perek 1 – mitzvos bring us close to Hashem. Aveirod bring us further from him.”
Doing Mitzvos is not the same as following Halacha. Being exact in mitzvos is not the same as being exact in halacha. This is an elementary point to following the themes of Mesilas Yesharim.
Lakewood? Driving a bus route.
Dear Avira,
Chabad is much closer to Chassidus as the Baal Shem intended it.
Dear Sechel,
The spread of chassidus goes through phases. The same as all parts of Torah. Right now things are on a down phase. People stopped learning because of covid. And we are still lacking for it.
Dear Always,
A chossid is not the term for one who finds favor by Hashem.
The classic term is ‘tzaddik’.
Dear Thelittle,
The purpose of defining these terms is to grasp the way the Torah is intended to impact our lives.
We jabeling people. We are examing the Torah’s sway on our society in light of our cultural differences.
‘Frum’ in the OP is synonoumous with ‘Ehrlich’.
It means one who posseses a lifelong ambition to perform mitzvos.
Such precious yidden seem to be scattered throughout the the different cultural groups.
Dear Da,
“Do we have records of anyone else ever doing such a thing?”
It’s historical tradition.
We have similiar traditions about the Ari, Vilna Gaon, Reb Shlomo Eiger, and even more recent. What is the problem here? People studied a lot of Torah.
Dear Mentsch,
Thanks for the quote! It is not like I undertood. Though it is not Rav Chaim’s chiddush.
In general, I’m not against the sentiment you are expresing here.
Dear Mentsch,
“By celebrating every siyum with food it cements the association and gives more credence to the idea of using a siyum to get out of fasting.”
Is that rationalization from the biography? I don’t think it is meant that way.
Dear Pro,
These are classifications. Not divisions.
It’s funny that I overheard Reb Dovid talking about it and still don’t know about it. And it’s also funny that nobody managed get a straight answer from him.
Just to remind you where this thread was when you joined.
The OP want’s to use the eruv with the approval of the YV. We are still following Rav Moshe’s opinion as the RY of the just departed generation maintained they heard directly from him. Rav Dovid, Rav Shmuel Birnbaum, Rav Belsky, and others. What other Poskim feel comfortable with isn’t going to help change the status quo. The Brooklyn eruv has too much grief on it to become accepted by the YV.
You may have a bunch to say why it should not be that way. But the historical fact is that this is how it played out. Rav Moshe did not endorse any eruv in Brooklyn at any point. And as of today there is still no consensus to move away from that position.
So you do realize, that while you may permit him to carry in Brooklyn, your not helping the OP.
If we agree on that, then we can move on.
So now even the Gaon’s opinions about chassidus have to be watered down? Why is everyone so soft about not getting everyone’s approval for their life choices? Okay, so not everybody loves Chabad or whatever group. And Chabad and whatever group doesn’t love every Jew that doesn’t love them in the first place.
Dear Always,
Your argument seems to add up to that the working people should learning more. Both during their work and by taking off more.
Most Kolleliet do not learn enough today. Money is not the primary factor for people leaving kollel. Those that do, are unusually saintly yeshivaliet and yearn to be back in Beis Medrash the rest of their lives.
You seem to value making money much more than I do. Maybe that is the crux of our debate here.
Such a person only exists when there isn’t an argument about the role.
Dear Ujm,
Not do degenerate either of them, but to think that Rav Aaaron or the Satmar Rav could have brought anything similar to what Rav Moshe brought to the questions of the generation is highly absurd. Both of those giants you mentioned, were more committed to raising the people over the bar, than to elucidating what the bar actually is.
Dear Common,
You can’t come into such a loaded topic and put forth such an extreme opinion without elaborating!
On the OP.
I agree with your take.
As well as the definition of frum given by Yserbius.
However, ‘Yeshivish’ can also be used to refer a certain cultural type.
It should be noted, that frum is not the same as halacha.
Halacha just means that they are meticulous in their practice.
Frum signifies a deeper religious drive.
So we have three categories in each group. Member in good standing. Meticulous observer of halacha. and Frum.
It’s worth keeping in mind, that the slide that we notice as we look to the left is mostly on the first category. Since these three categories all blend, we try to talk about superiority. Much like how Lubavitchers may pontificate on the other threads.
Rav Hirsch demanded a clarification and asked for a cherem if Frankel wouldn’t comply. Rav Hirsch wasn’t so worried about his personal ideas. But what his students would feel their obligation to the future of klal yisroel. It’s a great insight and shows the clarity of Rav Hirsch’s vision. It could be used to contemplate the utility of any branch of Ortodoxy.
Just because Frankel could not see the future, it doesn’t mean he was less Orthodox. His theories of the Mishna stand and fall on their own merits.
Dear Avira,
Rav Weinberg quotes him as a legitimate source in his essays on the formation of the Mishna. On par with Krochmal, Hoffman, and Halevi.
Dear Avira,
Your confusing JTS with something else. There weren’t official halachic decisions in JTS. JTS only got involved in these controversies when they gave certification for women rabbis and cantors.
The way American Yeshivos learn is from Rav Aharon? Really!?
The very slow pace today is from a lack of hasmadah. This is not what Reb Leib had in mind. Also, the proliferation of maggidei shiur that know so little compared to the previous generations.
“It works.”
Of course it works. Even if it all fails, we would still call it working.
But this is not the ideal. Though the Yeshivos can still be smug now, that may not be true in the next generation.
There is nothing wrong with not knowing who are the greatest Torah Giants.
This is proven by the many (Possibly even the Majority of them.) that receive so little public recognition.
Dear Sechel,
If you are happy pursuing Torah and Mitzvos where you are, there is no reason to educate yourself about what other Jews think and do differently. And there are many pitfalls in doing so.
I don’t know why you think it is worthwhile to debate who moshiach can be, on this forum. It will not help your ambition of being a good yid.
You misread the flow:
Maybe the opposite = Today, he would Rav Moshe would ….
I was totally making it up. To show that it’s all conjecture what Rav Moshe would say.
You have quoted that same line from the Flatbush Teshuva multiple times. I read it differently.
This is really all boiling down to meta halacha.
It’s pretty clear to me what Rav Moshe’s deep reservations were.
Even if the mattirim had their opinions about Rav Moshe, there was still Rav Dovid in living flesh.
Alas, that didn’t become a factor.
It’s surprising to me that people will get all hot under the collar about the matirim not being given the prerogative to issue their own psak, yet are not bothered by the fact that Rav Dovid was unusually vocal and was ignored.
“Most historical machlokes between chasidusen have been settled.”
Some in theory, others in reality.
Very few have been settled in both.
So it boils down to that the mattirim feel that they are not in full dispute with Rav Moshe. And perhaps in the current day, Rav Moshe would agree to permit it.
I understand that they are not lying in their assessment. still, it’s all conjecture that Rav Moshe would permit it. Maybe the opposite. Today, Rav Moshe would absolutely forbid it. It’s basically saying that the mattirim feel ready to move on from Rav Moshe.
The Aruch Hashulchan and other poskim is definitely not what stopped Rav Moshe from a clear psak.
Being supported in Kollel in our day, is like a Rov taking a salary. It serves a function in the community. Even more so in town, than out of town.
And, almost all Kollel members today are actively being fathers.
This is still not enough to fully satisfy the Rambam. Each yungerman must authentic to himself what he is doing. But this part is none of my business.
I don’t understand what you gain by repeating that Rav Moshe was mechudash. You were trying to argue that the Brooklyn Eruv is valid even according to Rav Moshe’s opinion. Then it doesn’t come in to play if he or you termed his opinion mechudash.
Are your three examples – that Rav Moshe was misled; 3M, 12×12, and mechitzos.
I thought the problem with CJ is the lack of commitment to the Mitzvos. If you can delineate what exactly makes CJ heretical, than you can save Avi Weiss a lot of grief. Alternatively, you can place him firmly on the Conservative side of the line. Which he has tenaciously resisted.
But alas you cannot. Other than grandiose claims that make no sense, your arguments on these baiting topics get you nowhere. You’ll try a few more times, and then you’ll go silent. I don’t take these issues personally, so I am ready to answer all your revisionism honestly.
Dear Ujm,
You understand my family wrong. They are all well to the right of MO.
None of Frankel’s opponents called him a heretic. They said his theories could be interpreted as heretical, and demanded a clear statement in support of the revelation.
Many staunch supporters of Orthodoxy used his theories. Haleivi uses him more than he uses Hirsch.
If Frankel is the founding figure of CJ, than all the more so that Hirsch must be the originator of today’s MO. That shatters your notion that CJ came from MO.
Dear Anonymous,
The Rabbinical staff of JTS was almost exclusively Orthodox until 1960. It was an institution for both Orthodox and Conservative students.
Dear Tuna,
Where does Agudah come in?
“Rav Moshe never offered reasons to allow”
Black on white, a large part of his teshuva. Otherwise he would have felt compelled to stop them. And he would have considered the eruv to be Chillul Shabbos.
Let me misquote you.
“There is no oral Torah. I simply do not believe”
Wait. So Rav Dovid Feinstien is not enough of an opinion to have to clarify his very public intentions, but you feel compelled to defend the mattirim that claim Rav Moshe agrees with them?
Around the time of WWI, there were probably more Rabbonim from Poland, Lita, Ukraine, or Russia, than from all of Western Europe combined. Germany just had it’s best period for the Jews. Eastern European Jews had been steadily migrating for forty years.
There were over a dozen Chassidishe Rebbes that came to America before Rav Moshe. And a similar number of yeshivos. The problem was the assimilation of the second generation immigrants. It had nothing to do with the brand of Orthodoxy.
Dear Ujm,
Your argument amounts to sticking the word Modern into Orthodox where it suits you.
If your whole position is comparing more modern elements to more traditional ones, than you win.
But that has nothing to do with observance, integrity or ideological commitment.
And it doesn’t reflect in the least in the diligence of Torah Study. Or the breadth of Torah Knowledge.
You could also choose some very traditional Jews with no religion.
It’s all about who makes a good traditional cholent.
Dear Yserbius,
Of the top of my head, cars was 1950. It’s a big line from outside Conservative. But within CJ it’s not so real. The upright still do not drive on Shabbos. And there is a significant amount that only drives where they believe it is permitted. As we know, electricity in general is a major problem as we get to the edges of OJ.
It comes down to this. If you believe that the real meaning of life is to march around how great we are as Jews and we represent the ultimate fidelity to the Revelation, than the CJ is on the wrong side of the divide. With a chunk of the LW of OJ. So go on parading yourself as God’s Gift. It’s a good fit for others who parade for other abominations.
But if you believe that Hashem instills everything with meaning and purpose and all that matters is to serve Him, then you know with all your being that these labels are the creation of man. And while they may be useful, they are meaningless in the Ultimate. When we look at the American Jewish scene from the angle of observance, it is one depressing slide until it falls of a cliff after Mainstream Conservative Judaism.
Dear Anonymous,
Neither Morais or Mendes were at the banquet. Mendes was never associated with Reform. JTS founding board was the front line for Orthodoxy in America at it’s time.
I spent a lot of the day looking through some storage for a letter.
“Chassidus at no point preceding 1769, was ever about spending a massive percentage of your day giving a late Rebbes writings and speeches the same chashivus as a blatt gemara.”
Fixed that for you.
Rav Yaakov Yosef spend every day of his life collecting and authenticating his dead Rebbe’s teachings.
And it is a major component to every legitimate chassidus.
It’s one of the big separators between the legitimate and the wannabes.
Dear Yserbius,
Ohhhhhh, that is what you mean!
Different story. They are is dishonest as the other publishers and edited a great man’s thinking to do match their own. They are too late. There has been much written about Rav Hirsch’s Torah and even more given over verbally. Down the road someone will print the corrections.
Dear Coffee,
Two points.
1. On your story. If this fellow eats the same lettuce at home as the restaurant serves, it’s all moot.
2. On the frummest. If they use only the clean lettuce. Some are too frum for that.
Dear Always,
In our times, employment is about earning salary in a trained position.
In earlier times, one used his physical skills to create what was needed.
Like milking a goat or growing vegetables.
So today it’s more like the kollel guy who does the shopping and fills the car with gas.
There are not so many that can always be found be their gemara.
Those guys earn the support they get. (If they get.)
And that genre is centuries old.
My mistake. I was thinking Agudas Harrabinim.
I should have reread my own post.?
Same question. Was Reb Tuvia a member?