Forum Replies Created
July 18, 2017 11:01 am at 11:01 am in reply to: SHOCKING Letter Published In Lakewood Newspaper ⚡📰 #1319847
This is as sad as it gets, …Whoever gave the ultimatum should have been told the school made the decision, you are not greater than the school and if you don’t like it there is the door.
But the school ran itself like a business who was worried about losing an important customer …
The little I know – i can promise you kiruv for someone FFB will not have the desired effect. Its one thing for a BT to show them a geshmack shabbos meal or otherwise enticing things about frum life. but someone who is doubting all the things they have been told and known their entire lives will probably not change their minds dur to typical kiruv techniques.
if anything will make more resentful
Going to a rabbi/rebbetzin (or being sent to one) when you are having doubts is like going to a bar to quit drinking. Not only does it not work but usually makes the problem worse
As someone who has gone OTD and stayed, i will tell you that religion just isnt for everyone.
But almost everyone needs family, love, support, and friendship on some level.
Loving and supporting your child (without condition) will be best for you and them. Whether that brings them “back” or not isn’t in your control, so stop worrying about it.
Life is too short.
I am Joe, although i dont know why that came up.
EzratHashem – why do you think OTD people think they are wrong?
That age group might be a little on the old side. I think kids 5-9 are ideal. Older kids will get bored, or end up spending a lot of time/money at the arcade.
As indoor water parks go, it is fairly standard (almost identical to cocokeys)
I took 2 kids, 5&7 there last year. they had a great time but after a 3 or 4 hours they were basically exhausted. maybe the older kids will have better stamina but with limited options for rides they will get bored before they get tired.
does the origin of the holiday matter? in 2013 US it is about dressing up and getting candy (same reason kids love purim, truth be told)
i think if i had emunah i would want to know what happens when i die. but i’m pretty sure i know. (worm food)
i disagree WIY, wealth (in money or other riches/luxuries) only amplifies the fact that Hashem is there to provide for everyone.
I think when you realize how billions in the world have nothing. How 6 million were sent to the gas chambers, how many kids are dying of disease every day in 2013, do you start to have questions of emunah
Bet when you get that contract on a huge business deal or get a new car you have tremendous hakaras hatov for Hashem
emunah for sure.
Goq: znus/drug/alocohol/pritzus is not limited to (frum) jews.
Defining what OTD is doesn’t make much sense. It is a sliding scale based on your upbringing and the expectations that are put on you. I am sure there are sects where having a boyfriend or wearing a bathing suit could be considered otd. Or even eating chalav stam, etc.
Just be a good person, it’s more important than those that would never miss a minyan but may be doing other things bi’tzinah. Hashem will figure out the rest
I think it is still a generation or 2 away. Aside from the govt, this is being funded from people who are professionals, no? How many doctors are going to be coming out of this program to help fund their sons and sons in law to learn all day?
it just seems the numbers keep growing and the benefactors dying out.
i’m chatting with my father about sheidim and gehenom once and we are trying to reconcile yiddishkeit’s take from the “hollywood” junk.
Long story short, my father says something like “I don’t believe in any of that supernatural stuff and i think you can live a life of torah/mitzvos without any supernatural”
All i could think to myself was (but i didnt have the chutzpah to say out loud) isn’t this all supernatural?
Anyway, can’t wait to ask him about gilgulim 🙂
Is this a sustainable model for 55,000 people?
JMH – then my question is simply, if it has no basis in common sense or the Torah – How do we know it is part of our Mesorah and not just the ideas of a single man (or group).
Sam, it seems that there was plenty in judaism that is not unique to us. Some of mishpatim is mentioned in the code of hammurabi, etc
yytz – my main issue with the topic of gilgulim is if they are part of the cycle of life, how could it not be in the Torah (or at least elsewhere in Tanach)? i.e. is the time of the Zohar or when the Ramban discussed it coincide with it picking up popularity with Eastern religions?
Thanks yytz, appreciate the insight. It sounds to me like the concept is completely “di’rabbanan”, is that right?
it seems like we don’t have a lot to go on,(aside from some stories) we know that the reincarnation that hinduism and buddism teaches is nonsense, what makes anyone think that our neshamos really become something else if it isn’t mentioned anywhere in the torah?
In terms of your practical consequence, should’t you live a good life because you’re a mensch and know right from wrong?(and not because you fear coming back into a tough life?)
I had a full MO education, year in israel, etc and i had never even heard of gilgulim throughout those years.
I’m just amazed that a huge concept doesn’t seem to be part of the mainstream curriculum. Does yiddishkeit really believe in such things?
Please stop reposting deleted posts.
I see no reason to tell your parents. I havent told my parents and they are 1.5 miles away, not 6000. If they do ask, be honest. If they don’t let them assume what they want to, noone gets hurt that way.
My parents “know” that i’m otd but my dad doesn’t push it. we have had a great don’t ask dont tell policy for > a decade. My mother asks too many questions (of which i am honest). when she doesnt like the answer, or more often says “don’t tell your father it would kill him” i usually respond something like “if you don’t want to know, stop asking” or “It WOULD kill him, thats why he has the sense not to ask”. In the meantime, my father is amazing. he will repeat a good vurt if he hears one and we have many intellectually stimulating conversations about science and history. Our relationship could not be better. and before someone argues that the relationship is based on a falsehood, i will preempt to disagree. Life is not all about religion and religious observance. All the things you all have mentioned about davening 3x a day, or saying tehillim or doing tshuva has NOTHING to do with your relationship with another human being.
Avram in MD
“…it seems that your problem with 2 day Yom Tovs is that we now utilize a fixed calendar, so it follows that when Rosh Chodesh was declared by the Sanhedrin, you wouldn’t have objections, right?”
well, no. whether the calendar is fixed or not the concept that it may or may not be yuntiff *today* makes it all seem arbitrary. The fact specifically that today there is no safeik at all (and when there was did people really fast 2 days for yom kippur) AND no mechanism in place to acknowledge that the 2 day yuntiff “doesn’t apply” anymore.
In terms of the moment in time when it did apply, the sages who created an “8th day” even for those in diaspora who cannot get the news of rosh chodesh – i believe were doing so in direct objection to the (perfect) Torah. In the simplest form, you cannot say that due to logistics Hashem really wants X even though he said Y! If anything it proves that the Torah, in its time wasn’t scalable to a global world.
Re: your latter post, You are very correct that I have a dislike for the adaptation. I refer to reforming and you adapting, but that is semantics.
The idea that “we would all be amish” is something I chuckle about, since essentially we ARE amish on shabbos and yuntiff. There was never anything prohibiting the use of technology (well, lets leave the asifa aside) as the amish did but there is a certain resistance to using it, within the confines of halacha, on shabbos. For example putting a light on, which i believe falls under the av of boneh but couldnt possibly be anything close to what boneh IS (or was in the mishkan). This is the understanding and application of a halacha that let’s face it, has NO precedent in jewish history/law (how could it. times change and not everything could be covered). so has halacha “dealt” with this or just outlawed it for lack of understanding?
Re: fridges, I honestly do not know how it is muttar to open one on shabbos. It is 40 degrees in there and 72 degrees in the room. you open the fridge, 20 seconds later the thing kicks on. You walk into a room with central air. by definition your presence warms the air, miniscule as that may be. the AC kicks on. Is this any better than turning on a light?
Oy…i have to get ready. Have a nice yuntiff everyone 🙂
I will post more later, in response to the thoughtful responses given to my questions.
Is there really a debate on whether yuntif is a burden though? Using all your vacation time from work (if you get paid vacation time, if not you get bubkis on those days either can lead to parnassa issues)- not to mention the women who cook, clean, deal with the kids/go to shul/rinse/repeat for 73 hours at a clip.
Come on let’s be honest here.
The fact that there is no mechanism in place to change things (that seemingly no longer apply/make sense) doesn’t seem like a problem with the system?
The reason I bring this up is something I have grappled with my rebbeim about this. for 2500 years there were tannaim/amoraim/rishonim tweaking halacha, most of which applies halacha li’mayseh today. Weren’t they “reforming” (i know…a very bad word 🙂 the direction of the torah.
I am not saying rejecting torah she’bal peh, all i’m saying is that if halacha is a living, breathing idea why did it stop changing (except to make life HARDER) 150 years ago?
The idea of yomtov shaini b’chutz la’aretz is something that I could never understand (not because it wasn’t explained) 🙂
I mean, there is no safek yom anymore, this we know. And there are more serious implications than simply those of convenience (or inconvenience). For example, the torah specifically says that succos is an 8 day holiday, so next friday A. why aren’t you oiver on baal toisif? and B. Shouldn’t you be putting on tfillin? C. Shouldn’t you be doing hakafos (the real ones) on Thursday
yungerman1 – where does the torah tell us those 5 things that we cannot do on YK?
A good breakfast!
Good question WIY…Also, why do i have to spend all that time davening on YK if i just sent it all away thru a chicken 🙂
Ask her why she needs so much food?!?
Regardless of whether it is a majority or a select few who are actually shtaiging the model itself has to be called into question.
The real question is, should a person be learning all day (and getting paid from the tzibbur for it) or not?
rationalfrummie hit the nail on the head. This was an activity for the select few in Europe that showed EXTREME learning abilities. As you said, in present times, the economics of it doesn’t work. I would never want my daughter in a school where the “goal” is to marry a kollel guy and struggle to put food on the tableAugust 12, 2013 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm in reply to: What can Yeshivos and girls' schools do to prevent students' OTD feelings? #972744
I love some of the things I read here, great advice. Smile E Face and wallflower…just brilliant
Kids are all different. They can’t be all treated to the same cookie cutter education, the same school uniforms and the same monotonous education year in and year out. It breeds resentment. Having children express themselves in what they wear, the people they look up to and the like is what makes them children!
Once they start looking, there is no hiding the internet. Nor should there be anything to hide if you think you have the Truth in being frum. Kids, as always, think the grass is greener on the other side.
Ultimately, if parents and educators do a good enough job in having the children follow because the frum life is tradition and sets us apart from umois ha’oilum – while not asking too many tough questions (i had many go unanswered) – they won’t want to wander to the other side.
But children are all different. They are not all wired to believe blindly, no matter what you throw at em. I know because I fit that bill.
He is using as expression (maybe making up for his previous wardrobe, which prohibited/lacked personal expression).
Anyway, look at the big picture. Its an earring. A piece of jewelry that is completely acceptable in today’s society. Is it even assur? (and i dont buy “begged isha”, since it is prevalent for men nowadays)
2scents – wonderful post. really insightful. one bewildering comment you made – in what world is it inappropriate for a mother to take a walk with their son?
msseeker – you seem very quick to make a korban out of one kid so that the others don’t get influenced. This post is not about the other kids (who are obviously important too). It is about the young man who needs his parents right now. screaming an emphatic “Yes!” and you wake up to an empty bedroom and another homeless teen hits the streets. really brilliant.
WoW – why are you so worried about secular movies? there are a million religious kids out there (of all religions) who have seen all kind of stuff. Seeing new things is part of maturing. Keeping him closeted to outside information is the exact reason for his current resentment. I promise. Besides, you can see worse in the NY Post on any street corner than an R rated movie. Instead of banning banning banning, why not actually allow it.Forbidden fruit always tastes sweeter. And maybe he will figure out right from wrong without you holding his hand.
Your son may or may not need to see a professional, one thing is for sure…in order to know how to parent in this situation, YOU DO!
Great point exlakewooder!
Consider this: if you were born in India, there’s a good chance you’d be praying to an elephant statue with 6 arms thinking everyone ELSE was delusional. WE all know for a fact that those people are completely wasting their time; In other words, due to our being born to Jewish parents we can safely reject their mishagass even after giving it no thought whatsoever
Have a great yuntiff everyone, go easy on the cheesecake!
i know you are hurt W/O/W and i understand that there is only one emes in your world. And that is tied into the contemporary frum world. But go back to har sinai, as you say. did they all wear black and white? (did they even wear kipot, uh…probably not). This image that tomorrow night we celebrate an event which kicked off the Jewish religion with 600,000 shuckling, bearded, yiddin is (i wonder if yyou agree) quite laughable. But lets face it, isn’t that what we were taught as kids?
So i ask you, aside from the text of the torah, do contemporary jews have anything in common with those that said na’aseh v’nishma? What exactly does your statement that they were “living as jews” even mean?
People HAVE been choosing their own derech for millenia. Practicing what they can and often time removing what they cannot (like a jacket) – which explains why ashkenazim and sefardim differ so often
Look at todays frum world, and you will see why the feeling of mitzvot and customs being arbitrary is so rampant. I would go so far to say, that if the torah was given tomorrow night on 13th Ave or in Monsey or Lakewood, most likely women would not be invited to the party and there would be no food because you cant find 100 jews who agree on a hechsher.
My suggestion is to accept the fact that not all people are religious. Live a happy life that isn’t bogged down with all the status and labels that controls the frum world. You CAN be a good person that is either a non-believer or just non practicing.
Life’s too short and we only go around once, theres no time to waste fighting about minutiae.
Daniela why is the reaction always to send someone away? I realize you only say for a few weeks (as opposed to the usual of sending to yeshiva in another city/country for a school year). This doesnt address the core issue NOR does it indicate to the child that you are willing to attack their needs head on and give the situation the attention it deserves. You are doing nothing but putting the same furniture that doesnt go well together in a room painted a different color. It still wont look good!!
This tactic really infuriates me. Does ANYONE think this is productive?
For what its worth, no matter how much i didnt care about halacha, i would never (and still never do now) watch tv in my parents house on shabbos nor pull up in my car. I explain to my children now that we do not watch tv or play with muktza toys when we are there on shabbos. I am careful in my mother’s kitchen with kashrus (and when i go to sit with my father in shul, ironically talk than many of the ballah battim.)
There is a difference between being non-observant and being disrespectful (although you may feel like they are one and the same).
My point is, whether your son wants to be on or off the(your) derech, or somewhere in between (MO, bnei akiva, ncsy, conservadox, whatever) if he wants respect for his decision he should show respect for yours and your way of life.
Daniela “nothing wrong” is subjective and a moving target. I agree that WOW did all she knew to be right as almost everyone does for their children. In her son’s eyes she did do something wrong and his point of view is paramount now, which is why WOW feels so guilty about it.
I have friends who were in yeshiva for 8 hours before getting to secular studies (to cover those subjects in 90 minutes, mentally exhausted) – Many become barely literate adults. Are their parents doing something wrong?
WOW – I beg you to accept your son for what he is and for what he is not. In terms of guilt, this is a nature vs nurture debate. And since the nurture is usually identical, same parents, same yeshivos, even same rabbanim – yet we see all the time kids turn out way different – it is hard to argue that nature too has a certain roll.
WOW i can definitely relate to going thru the motions. Be there and be supportive. Since its advent, religion has done nothing but create rifts among and within peoples. Dont let it break up your family
Just to elaborate, the frum world does not have a monopoly on Judaism and as much as you may disagree, Judaism can be expressed in many many ways. Everyone has their preferences, sure, and lines that they WILL NOT cross, but this is the reality. Even within the frum world there are 20 varieties of hat, different psaks on ways of life. The idea of “my way or the highway” – many will choose the highway and not look back.
Re: sending away and removing him from his environment. For me, no rabbi or remotely located yeshiva can convince me of certain ideals that are critical to the frum world.
PS – I am your son, in 20 years – feel free to pick my brain, I may know how he is feeling.