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PBA’s comment about women of child bearing age experiencing as much depression as post-partum women is simply baloney. There is a wealth of research that indicates otherwise.
And for scientific information, we can look to a scientific journal. I quote: Social Psychiatry and Psychiatric Epidemiology, Najman et al., 2000, pp. 19-20, 25 (quoted in Sorotzkin, CHEMICAL IMBALANCE, GENETIC MALFUNCTION, OR PROBLEMS IN LIVING?):
Lost1970- That depends on why you’re depressed. Postpartum depression, for example, is chemically/hormone based and therefore is treated with medication. Someone who is depressed because of life experiences may or may not medication. It all depends on the person.
I don’t believe in that either. Studies show that post-partum women are depressed at the same rate as other women of child bearing age. But if post-partum causes depression, the rate should be higher. Rather, it shows that women who are prone to depression davka get it when they are having those life factors (like the huge emotional upheaval of giving birth)
It is beyond me how anyone could use an eiruv in a city that is named for a football team. Disgusting.
No, I researched the issue, spoke to experts, and concluded it is narishkeit. (Including my next door neighbor who does psychology research and does CBT, and I told him it is narishkeit.)
So if some experts agree with me, and their position makes sense to me, exactly why should I not advocate it?
I’m aware that most CBT practitioners do not practice pure CBT and instead incorporate elements of psychotherapy, as you note very well. And I’m glad they do–because at least you get some utility.
I’m not sure what you are asking me for. You want me to describe how I would treat you? I’m not a psychologist; I wouldn’t treat you. But I do know I would send you to a psychologist who practiced psychotherapy, not narishkeit.
This Poppa bar Abba appears to be atypical blogger who knows nothing about the topic. I am curious as to why anyone would respond to his posts. I am impressed with the passion of some other people, though.
Yes, you definitely are a CBT practitioner if that is what you ask. Instead of realizing that there may be a history involved the relationship between Poppa and the people he is arguing with.
Think about that next time you see a client. You’ll be amazed at what you’ll be able to help them figure out.
(You can come consult with me if you wish, I charge $360 an hour.)
No, I’m not talking about psychoanalysis. Psychoanalysis, ala Freud, is narishkeit because there is little basis for what the psychologist is ascribing to the patient.
I’m talking about good old psychotherapy, where you talk through your emotions, and what is behind them, and where you are making the illogical step.
And the fact that you have no idea what I am talking about kind of belies your expertise.
Nothing like a quick fix. Who wants to spend time and energy actually dealing with emotions, when you can just repress them!
Let’s not bicker over definitions. We’ll just say that CBT shouldn’t replace other classic forms of psychotherapy.
Significant other?
Do you mean wife?
That might be reasonable.
Saw my mate, the other day,
said to me, I’ve seen the white pele,
said to him, what’s his name,
said to me, Wayne Rooney,
Wayne Rooney, Wayne Rooney,
Wayne Rooney, Wayne Rooney
Yes, the same way someone can do medication and psychotherapy.
Manchester United!
I will repeat my earlier assertion. When I want to seek an eitzah about therapy, I will pose my questions to trained experts in the field, not someone in the checkout line in Shoprite or Pathmark, nor someone on the internet whose credentials are unknown.
And I’ll still wonder how that is a good strategy, since it subjects you to the randomness of the opinion of which expert you consult. If you consult an expert that agrees with you, you’ll do CBT, while if you consult an expert who agrees with me you’ll do psychotherapy.
Why settle for random?
That is so, I would not be a kofer even in that world.
They should stop watching, or choose a different school. Because they’ll invariably end up talking about it in school and getting in trouble.
(unless they ask around and determine that everyone in the school has TV’s anyway)
Why, is CBT used in epidemiology also? My what a wonder therapy it must be.
It is improper, perhaps immoral to provide such advice here, unless one wishes to reveal their identity and credentials.
Fascinating. And why is that?
Meanwhile, if I question whether CBT or any other treatment approach is appropriate for me, I will ask an expert in the field and take direction from them.
And depending on the random expert you ask, you will do different things? The experts don’t agree.
Perfect. I’ll also leave a final word.
My final word is that it is wrong to encourage people to pursue treatments such as CBT which are narishkeit and which I understand very well and am well read on.
And I stand by that 100%.
Sorry, there are times when I’m just trying to get a rise out of people, and I’d usually admit to it after 75 posts. But this isn’t one of those times.
I truly do hope that people listen to me, or at least consider what I’m saying. It might change your life.
Okay – if this is going to turn into a feif bash while he isn’t even here, then we should all leave.
Life doesn’t work like that. Feif came here to bash us, then disappears so that we’ll feel guilty for responding, but relays messages through his friend anyway.
lol
Feif: Maybe you can respond through your blog. Maybe title the post “YWN chareidim kill little babies”
Also, just realize please how far out of the mainstream you already are by acknowledging that there are outside stimuli that cause mental illness. Most pseudo-psychologists today will tell you it is just purely genetic.
So once you’ve joined my kefira team, why not wonder if there are also outside stimuli that can help after the fact. Maybe ask your professor why he’s never researched that?
Lemme ask you something.
Go back to the dog dying sadness. Do you think it might help in that case for someone to talk with you about it? It does, right?
So might there not be some things you could think about and talk about to reverse the damage done by a long term emotional trauma also?
There is something very wrong about just giving up without even trying to fix something.
But it’s impossible to eliminate the stimuli that cause depression, the same way we can’t really completely prevent ourselves from getting sick. You generally can’t prevent the loss of a family member, or physical or sexual abuse from happening, can you? The stimuli that cause depression – various incidents that can cause grief, will not be eliminated from life, although we’d all love to avoid them. They are part of life.
Good, so we agree.
Now the question for you is: if you agree that depression might be caused by outside stimuli, isn’t it worth trying to see if you can treat the cause?
Say it was caused by sexual abuse. Isn’t it worth seeing if you can find a healthy way to address the issue emotionally?
Does your regular doctor always just prescribe painkillers to mask symptoms?
Ezactly. And it all starts with a stimulus.
So you need to figure out what the stimulus is.
I’m not gonna sit here and take this. Feif un, from his very useername to the content of his posts is no innocent in this. He dishes it up just as bad as he gets it. Just he also whines about it.
Ok, so here’s how Popa thinks emotions work. And this is what I’m saying:
Let’s start with simple emotion. Your dog dies and you are sad. So you have a stimulus of dog dying. Then your brain picks up that this is something that should make you sad. So your brain tells your body to release chemicals that make you feel that sadness, and you feel sad. Dog died—>felt sad.
Now, if someone would have scanned your brain while you were sad, they would have seen all those sad chemicals swirling around. But if they asked why you were sad, they would have known that it was because your dog died.
Suppose some jerk leaves davening early when you wanted to and now you can’t leave because you are the minyan. Your brain tells your body to release the angry chemicals, and it does, and it results in you feeling angry. If someone scanned your brain, they would see angry chemicals, but you are angry because of the jerk.
If you bang your elbow, your brain tells you body to do whatever it does that makes you feel pain. And someone could scan your brain and see those nerve endings firing, and maybe think that nerve endings firing caused your elbow to hurt. But you know it was your banging your elbow.
So studies which show that depressed people have less serotonin are just restating the obvious: that the brain works through chemical transmitters. But they don’t show anything about what causes those chemicals to be released or not released.
Now, so we’ve established that when dog dies, you feel sad because your brain releases sad chemicals (or withdrawn happy chemicals, either way). How about when you feel sad all the time? So your brain obviously has released the sad chemicals–but why has it? It’s probably a good idea to wonder what it could be about your life that your brain thinks you are experiencing constant sad stimuli. Maybe you are constantly anxious about things–that might be a good reason to be sad. And then you should ask why you’re anxious. Maybe your a perfectionist and nothing is ever good enough, so it makes sense to be anxious. In which case you should ask where that perfectionism came from. Maybe it was your parents who made you think you were a failure for being a normal imperfect kid.
Imagine you went to the doctor and said, “it hurts”, and he just prescribed a painkiller without asking why it hurts or trying to figure it out. Would you go back to that doctor? Well, why not? He did solve the symptom you came complaining about. Never mind the blood dripping from your elbow.
So what? Of course they would be sad.
What if you took a bunch of normal tired people and gave half of them caffeine. Would that finally prove to the deniers that lack of caffeine causes tiredness?
Correlation is not causation. So what can we do to eliminate causality? We run an experiment. One with random assignment and a control group.
So in our case, how do we find out if low serotonin causes depression or the other way? We would randomly assign participants of the experiments into two groups. One would receive and SSRI, and the other would get a placebo. Then we rank the participant’s level of depression (using the Beck depression inventory or an equivalent test). If the experimental group shows a better improvement in symptoms than the control group, we can say that high serotonin reuptake can be a cause of depression. It’s as simple as that.
Sorry, try again. All you are showing with your experiment is that they are correlated. But I’m saying that the depression triggers are what cause the lack of serotinin. So it doesn’t prove anything to that. It doesn’t show which way the causation is.
It’s like saying that headaches are caused by a lack of tylenol because tylenol helps them.
Read your post again. It didn’t make any sense, and proved my point.
What you are saying is precisely the point. If you cut your arm, the nerves send signals which cause neurotransmitters to be released which result you feeling pain. Similarly, if someone has inflicted emotional “cuts” on you, then it causes neurotransmitters to be released which make you feel emotional pain.
And the same way you would never think of ignoring the cut on your arm and blaming the pain on neurotransmitters, you shouldn’t do that with emotional cuts either.
Depression is most often treated with SSRI’s – Selective Serotonin Re-uptake Inhibitor. These inhibit the “feel good” neurotransmitter in the brain, serotonin, from being re-absorbed, thus in layman’s terms, leaving more of it out in the brain to help the person feel good. The reason these work is because often people with depression either fail to produce the correct amounts of these neurotransmitters
Of course. And the reason Tylenol relieves headaches is these people’s brain fails to produce the correct amount of Tylenol.
Before calling me ignorant, did you stop for even one second to consider that maybe depression causes there to be less serotonin, rather than being caused by it?
If I get angry, don’t you think that releases different neurotransmitters in my brain? So am I angry because of the neurotransmitters, or because I stubbed my toe?
I’m trying to help my fellow jews, and prevent them from wasting time and money with charlatans instead of going for real therapy.
Oh, and just what empirical evidence is there for the narishkeit that depression is biological? None.
Anxiety or depression aren’t causes by negative behaviors or thinking. They are most likely biological illnesses. But their symptoms manifest in physical behaviors and thoughts. CBT is not about curing mental illness. It’s about managing the symptoms. Once you’ve mastered that, there isn’t much else to do.
Right, so I completely disagree with that assertion, and think it is the height of narishkeit.
In any event, CBT effectively treats only symptoms of mental illness. It is sold as just a plan to cope with it. It completely gives up on addressing the causes of it, and in doing so is probably missing many other symptoms.
Suppose someone suffers from anxiety and depression, and the reason is that they have a low self image, owing to perfectionism based on misperceptions of what success and failure are.
So now they come to the pseudo-psychologist and he tells them that when they feel down, they should force themselves to think about happy outcomes. So then one day he is in yeshiva and is scared about looking bad in shiur, but he just thinks about happy outcomes and it all works out.
And then one day he is dating someone, and are scared to marry them because they find something imperfect–because nothing is ever perfect. So he thinks about happy outcomes instead. But does he marry her? Wouldn’t it have been nice if he had seen a real psychologist who had gotten to the root of his issue instead?
If they have evidence to back up what they say. And they usually do.
So, then you mean to say, “no, I don’t agree with them”. You just use them as mareh mekomos to find research.