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To the group
I spoke to a Lubavicher yesterday and asked him when the Rebbe began to speak about Moshiach’s imminent arrival. He told me it was as soon as he became Nasi. So let’s understand. The Rebbe announced more than seventy years ago that Moshiach is coming. Imminent means any minute, not any century. Anyone can predict that Moshiach will come at some time in the future. A prophecy requires an actual date.
To sechel83
How did I speak Loshon Hora? Is it because I compared the Rebbe to Trotsky(look up Leon Trotsky to find out who he was)? I don’t see the problem. You said that every Jew is exactly the same a piece of G-d. It therefore follows, according to you Lubavichers that there’s no difference between the Alter Rebbe and a meshumad. Mainstrwam Jews like myself, of course, reject this , but I’m simply making Diyukim based on “your” statements. Now back to my main point. The sources you presented have nothing to do with the Gemara that says that 1/300,000 Jews will be redeemed by Moshiach. Therefore that Gemara stands and the Rebbe has no justification for rejecting an explicit Gemara.He also had no right to reject the Gemara which said that nevuah ended in Bayis Sheini.
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To Sechel83
Thanks for finally providing your sources, but there’s one problem. The Gemaras you quote speak about Roshoim who ultimately get into Olam Habo after a lengthy stay in Gehinnom. I will never challenge any statement in the Gemara, but that’s not the subject of the Gemara on 111a which says that only a small percentage of Jews will be redeemed by Moshiach. Therefore, you haven’t provided any statement which challenges that Gemara. More troubling, however, is your assertion that there is no difference between Jews. What you’re saying is that the Rebbe and Trotsky, for example, are equal. Ch”vsh
To sechel83
” Bottom line. Every Jew is a Jew no matter what.”. The statement is true but it’s fraught with implications. What you’re umplying is that there’s no difference between Reb Chaim and Bernie Sandwrs. Hitler and Hamas would agree with that but Hashem certainly doesn’t. As Rabbi Avigdor Miller said, “Those Jews who wanted to spend their lives on the beaches of Hawaii will end up there.” A Jew will not be redeemed simply because his mother was Jewish.
To sechel83
For the record, you stated thst there were Gemaras that argued on the Gemara in Chelek. We both know that no such Gemara exists, As I stated earlier in the week this is not the time for Jews to fight with each other because our brothers and sisters in Israel are in danger. My thoughts are with them, but editedTo DaMoshe
You’re certainly right, but given what’s happening now, this isn’t the time to argue with Chabad. edited
To 613yid
I don’t think that anyone is challenging the notion of Moshiach min hameisim. What mainstream Jewry is saying is that when we speculate that Moshiach will come from the dead there’s no reason to assume that the specific dead person will be the Rebbe.
To sechel83You claimed that there are Gemaras(plural) that argue against the Gemara in Cheilek. We’re waiting for ypu to produce said Gemoros or admit that they don’t exist.
To 5783
It’s admirable that you’re apologizing for making insensitive remarks about the Rebbe. Obviously, you were affected by the Yomim Noraim. I would make two comments. First, you’ll never see or hear any Lubavicher make any apologies for insulting a litany of Gedolim. Second, those who criticize the Rebbe make sure it’s not personal. All agree that he was a genius in Nigleh, nistar, and the sciences. In addition, he was beloved by everyone who met him. That said,
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To sechel83
So you believe that there’s someone alive today who could be Moshiach, but you don’t know that person’s identity. I agree with you. And this has been true throughout the millennia. Only in the case of the Rebbe did his followers decide he was that potential Moshiach. Remember, mainstream Judaism never accepted the notion that the Rebbe was the Moshiach Hador when he was alive, and we certainly don’t believe that he’ll have a second coming to claim the throne. Yes, Rabbi Akiva said that about Bar Kochba, but when Bar Kochba died he realized he was wrong. That’s a message that is lost on Chabad because its leader changed or rejected Gemaras when they didn’t fit his agenda. BTW, instead of citing sources summarize them in English.
To Sechel
Still waitimg to hear your candidate for this generation’s living potential Moshiach.To sechel83
“The Chasam Sofer and othets write that in every generation there is someone alive who is fit to be Moshiach.” Who is that person in our generation? Yankel berelbcalled you a liar for refusing to admit that Moshiach min hameisim was a post Gimmel Tammuzi invention. I’ll second yankel’s assertion because there is no Machlokes in ths Gemara in Chelek. The only person in the history of the Jewish people who rejected that explicit Gemara is the Rebbe.
To yankel berel
Obviously reality means nothing. I met someone yesterday in the Sukkah. He credits Rabbi Miller for making h frum. He’s convonced that the Rebbe is Moshiach because Rabbi Miller endorsed him as being great.
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To yankel berel
I’d like to add to your point about Chabad rejecting the concept of Moshiach from the dead. A Lubavicher told me that when the Tebbe died it created shock waves in CH because it meant that he coulcn’t be Moshiach. Rather rhan accept that simple truth, two camps emerged. One denied that the Rebbe actually died, the other accepted that fact but consoled themselves with the Chazal that after a Tzaddik dies he’s more alive than when he was living.
To sechel83
You said it’s kefira to challenge an open Gemara. This said, how was the Rebbe able to reject the Gemara in Chelek which said that only pne out of 300,000 Jews will be redeemed by Moshiach?
To always,
As yankel berel said it’s not sinas chinam to criticize Chabad theology. All Hashem expects from us is that we tell the truth. If, as it’s quite clear that Chabad is distorting the truth to convince others of its beliefs then we’re obligated to call them out. As for your attack on Godolhad, if he’s right accept it. Don’t let your ego stand in the way of truth.To Gadol
Thanks for the clarification. Quite often certain details of a story get confused.
To Sechel
Your point is that Lubavichers don’t care what normal Jews think. Well if that’s so why did one of your landsman start this thread? He asserted that there is now clearcut proof that the Rebbe is Moshiach. That you guys feel the need to convince edit Jews of your lunacy is an indication that you realize how shoddy your evidence is. But if you want to believe that the Rebbe us Moshiach/god gesunterheit.
To yankel berel
Again, you’re spot on. The simple truth is that Chabad is trapped by its need to “prove” its lies. Actually I saw the same thing in another thread. I criticized Rabbi Miller, mildly, and one of his followers twisted the truth to defend him. It’s not the Jewish way to believe in perfect leaders. At the same time we must always be respectful to those who devote themselves to the Torah. Finally, the moderators deserve credit for maintaining civility in these discussions.To yankel berel
Your point is well taken but Lubavichers believe that the Rebbe should be trusted over the Gemara.To Always ask
You’re making a great point and I’d like to expand on it. When Rav Yaakov said that Moshiach would come from Rabbi Auerbach’s yeshiva he wasn’t stating a prophecy, or even making a prediction. Rather he was trying to impress on people that Moshiach will bring all Jews together and so a Yeshiva that meets the needs of Ashkenazim and Sefardim is what Hashem is looking for. In contrast, Lubavichers believe that the Rebbe was a Novi and so they take each of his words Kipshuto. That’s why they twist themselves into a pretzel trying to resolve his contradictory statements.
To any
Now you really have me confused. If you look at what you just wrote you’re now adding the friedige rebbe as Moshiach. So how does this work the Rebbe will be the actual Moshiach and the Rayatz will be Moshiach emeritus or will they be co captains? I’ll correct you on one point. You rely on your Rabbis to tell you who Moshiach is, real Jews undetstand that Hashem, and only Hashem will make that decision.
To always
The only thing we learn from Jewish history is that no one, except Hashem, knows the identity of Moshiach and when he will arrive. Rav Yaakov’s guess, it’s not a Psak, is as valid, or as meaningless as what Chabad tries shoving down our throats. A Jew is obligated in Torah and Mitzvohs and not in idle speculation about Moshiach. Yes, we all want Moshiach, but the Chafetz Chaim taught us how to ask Hashem to send our Redeemer, devote oneself to Torah study, particularly Kodshim and Taharos. Edited
To any
If normal Jews humor you and pretend to accept your nonsense can we end this thread?
To the group
The Gemara cites the Tanna, R Shimon Haamsuni who made it his life’s work to Darshen all the “essim” of the Torah. When he came to a certain Posuk whose “ess” he felt he couldn’t explain, R Shimon disbanded his life’s work. This is the pinnacle of intellectual honesty. In contrast, numerous questions have been posed to the Lubavichers in this and other threads and they’re batting a robust .000. Still they hold on to the belief that their Rebbe is the long-awaited Redeemer. We can explain their intransigence with a pithy aphorism, “Don’t confuse me with the facts, my mind’s made up.” There are two chances of the Rebbe being Moshiach, slim and none.
To ANY
I returned to the beginning of the thread and read your comment, “No one can be called Moshiach until he completes the Messianic mission, eg. rebuilding the Bes Hamikdosh, kibbutz galiyos etc.)” So we completely agree on this point. Here’s my question, “What do you say about your landsmen who have declared that the Rebbe is, at this moment, Moshiach?”To sechel83
So you’re now saying that the point of advertising Rabbi Bechpfer’s video is to justify Chabad’s belief that the Rebbe will come back to life and be Moshiach. If that’s your point and you’re not trying to convince non Lubavichers of your belief then fine. I do ‘t care if you continue to hold out hope. But here’s the problem. Why do so many of your landsmen not agree with you that the Rebbe will return from the dead and bece Moshiach? They claim that he never died and he is already Moahiach. Would you care to comment about them?
To Any
I assume that this book which “proves” that the Rebbe will retuen to fulfill his Messianic dream was written recently. Now before Gimmel Tammuz all Lubavichers believed that the Rebbe would become Moshiach while he was alive. So hete’s the question, “For tje past 30 years between the time of the Rebbe’s death and the book how did you know he’d return from the dead?”
To any
Read what you wrote to ARSo,”They believed he was Moshiach when he was alive and so they believed he was Moshiach when he died.” “They” means Lubavichers and only Lubavichers. Therefore since “they” believed he was Moshiach when he was alive “they” also believed he was Moshiach when he died. Now why did Lubavichers believe the Rebbe was Moshiach when he was alive? It’s because he said or hinted that he was. This created the mass hysteria. Therefore, when you try to convince rational people that the Rebbe is Moshiach and he will return from the dead we’re not buying any of it. At the same time, I won’t try to talk you out of your belief because you’re not ready, willing or able to accept the truth.
To any
Why are you Lubavichers so obsessed with convincing mainstream Jews that the Rebbe is, or will be Moshiach?
To thw group
The sources are in books whose veracity is questionable at best.
To CS
I took you at your word that you’re looking for the truth but I see that you’re going into Chabad defense mode. As I clearly explained, there are only two ways to understand the Notkin story. Either the Baal Hatanya spoke lishan hora, which is highly unlikely or the story is a lie. I don’t intend to discuss this any further, You’re free to believe what you want.
To the group
Sechel83 directed us to a YouTube video called, “The Rebbe shlita Melech Hamoshiach.” given by a Litvak named Rabbi Gavriel Bechofer. His implied message was that this clip would convince non Lubavichers that the Rebbe is Moshiach. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Rabbi Bechofer, who is obviously a Talmid Chacham, said as follows, “According to Rambam it’s possible that Moshiach will come from the dead.” Now that’s not earth-shattering because he’s simply reiterating what the Gemara says. The Rabbi then added that this fact means nothing to anyone outside of Chabad because mainstream Judaism sees no reason why the Rebbe would be chosen to return from the dead over any number of Torah giants such as the Chasam Sofer, Rav Moshe, Rav Shlomo Zalman, you get the point. Thank you sechel83 for bringing this video to our attention as it only confirms what non-Lubavichers have been saying throughout this and all other threads on various sites. The Rebbe is no different than any other scholar who died. That Lubavichers believe otherwise is not worth trying to refute. We’ll apply this saying to Chabad, “Don’t confuse me with the facts my mind’s made up.”
To CS
Thanks for your response. You write quite nicely and clearly but here’s the problem(s). Could the Baal Hatanya really have felt that an hour of harassment from this Misnagid was worse than 52 days in a Russian prison? Second, how could the Baal Hatanya, who was as close as possible to being a perfect Tzaddik, speak such blatant Loshon hora? The way one determines truth is by keeping an open mind. I’m stating that we learn from the Kherson forgeries that Lubavichers have a long history of changing stories to fit their agendas. Since you claim to be a person of truth that should be troubling to you. And I’m not insinuating that Chabad is the only organization that does this. I turned off from Rabbi Avigdor Miller because there were statements he made that were troublesome to me. How did I deal with this? I spoke to Rabbonim whose opinions I trust.The problem is that I highly doubt that you can find anyone reliable in Crown Heights to ask since everyone seems to be toeing the party line.To sechel83
Your latest attempt to prove that the Rebbe is Moshiach reminds me of something that happened almost 50 years ago. My Organic Chemistry professor was Dr. Leon Gortler. He was brilliant, Harvard-educated, and a real mensch. He told me the following, “I can prove anything and the opposite of that thing.” His point was that if someone has expertise in a particular area he can prove whatever he chooses to prove. Yoshke’s disciples could “prove” that he was Moshiach and the same for Shabbetai Tzvi’s followers. None of these so-called proofs impress rational Torah-based Jews. But if you want to believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach gezunterheit.
To CS
It was ARSo not .me who connected Notkin’s interrogation and cwlebrating the 20th of Kislev. I think ot’s just a guess on his part. I’d like, however, to focus on what you said Notkin’s interrogation of the Baal Hatanya. Interrogation? Was Notkin in the Gestapo? If the Alter Rebbe was uncomfortable he could have just walked out. This whole story mskes no sense to me and the simplest explanation is that it’s part of the Kherson lies.
To lostspark
I know how much you enjoy my writing and respect my opinions, C”V that I should stop and deprive you. Lol
To CS
I don’t make assertions. Like anyone else I read as much as I can find and then I try to use my truthometer to decide what I should accept. Every source material will have inaccuracies, the issue is whether those inaccuracies are intentional. In any event I like you and I don’t say anything I don’t mean. Let’s see if we can continue this dialogue.
To ARSo
I spoke about Notkin to my Chabad Rabbi. I asked him how, if the story is true, the Baal Hatanya could speak such blatant Loshon hora. His answer, there was a Toeles in telling his Chassidim about Notkin. Notkin offered the Rebbe tea that day and the Rebbe drank it so the Baal.Hatanya was teaching his Chassidim that even if you’re abused by your host you shpuld accept whst he offers. The my froend added that he just made that up.This story, like most Chabad stories is aimed at advancing their agenda.
To the group
As usual yankel berel is absolutely correct that the original hostilities are completely irrelevant to the current situation. I would however like to share a story. About. 40 years ago I worked for an insurance company and there was an English underwriter named Jack Scott. One day he came over to me to complain about his co workers who went on about the Holocaust. He told me that he was confiding in me because I was the only Jew at the firm who didn’t discuss it. I realized then how stupid it is to teach Holicaust studies to goyim. The point is that it makes no sense for Lubavichers to teach their children and students about that period. As Jack Scott said, “Get over it already.”To Always
Yes I’m familiar with what the Baal Hatanya allegedly said about Notkin but here’s my point. First off we have to realize that thete are the Kherson forgeries which means that we can’t be sure that quotes attributed to the Alter Rebbe were actually said by him. In fact it makes no sense that he publicly insulted Notkin because that’s Loshon Hora and I highly doubt that such a Tzaddik would ever speak loshon hora. But even if we dismiss the Kherson forgeries as a snag lie the question is why Chabad continues to teach its minions this period of history. I’m close to many Chassidim and it means nothing to them. Their families were
wiped out by the Holocaust so they’re going to care that their alter Zeides were spit on?. I went to a Chassidishe yeshiva for the first 4 grades and Litvish for the last 8 and I never heard of those fights. I learned about it in college in a Judaic studies class. It’s time for Lubavichers to put that part of their past away. It does nothing but sow hatred.To CS
I’m impressed by your response. You are, as you said, a person looking for truth. Most people, not just Lubavichers, go into defense mode when someone introduces an alien thought. That you’re willing to explore what I told you is a positive sign. I don’t question that there was very bad blood between the two sides but I’m sure the Chassidim were not innocent bystanders either. That they could forge a letter in the name of their godol to malign the Litvish’s world leading light is appalling. And the fact that 200 years later these lies are still accepted by Lubavichers is shocking.
To ARSo
Well said.
It is getting too tiring to edit all your posts, and deleting most of them hasn’t seemed to have any effect on the subsequent ones. Either keep your comments directed to the content, or none will be posted. And on the chance anyone is assuming this isn’t a problem with the ‘other team’ in this color war, the hate speech there is a dime a dozen.
Checkmate.
To ARSo
The Rebbe took Purim seeiously. That’s when he “killed” Stalin. I guess in 1956 he decided take down the Chazon Ish. Yes he was already niftar. Lubavichwrs love to denigrate Gedolim. If their Rebbe did the same they had a role model to follow. De
To CS
You come off as a decent fellow so I’ll share this with you. Chaim Miller wrote an English translation of the Tanya. In the foreword he spoke about the dispute between Chasidim and Misnagdim. He quoted the Gaon as saying that the Chassidim had to be dri ven out. He did say that. Then he cited a private letter from the Alter Rebbe which stated that the Gaon’s rhetoric caused the blood of Chassidim to flow like water. There are two problems with this. First, there were no dwaths at that time. Second, if there were deaths then lives would have been lost on both sides so why would the Baal Hatanya only specify Chassidim? Do you think he didn’t value the lives of all Jews. I brought this to my Rov’s attention. He told me that this letter was part of the Kherson forgeries. He explaoned, some time after the Alter Rebbe died his Chassidim forged his signature on documents that were slanderous lies aimed at defaming the Gaon. If you’re really a person of truth talk to someone about what I’ve written. edited
To ARSo and mdd1
I don’t understand the reference to Yirmiyah please clarify.
To Menachem Shmei
I want to add to the point that ARSo made today. In response to my assertion that the Rebbe couldn’t be an Anav since he called himself the Godol Hador, you said he was referring to the Rayatz. Nice try, but it doesn’t wash. We previously established that the Rebbe stated in a letter that every Nasi Chabad is also Nasi Hador for all Klal Yisroel. Therefore he was referring to himself as well as the Rayatz. I actually have a guess for the answer you’re going to provide.
To Menachem Shmei
1. The statement that no Jew is ever punished because every Jew has the din of a Tinok shenushba was told to me by several Chabad Rabbis.
2. On page 16 you stated that the Rebbe said he’s god clothed in human form. Is he the only person to reach that madregah. Sounds like a real Anav to say that about himself don’t you think?
3. Do you agree with cunin that the rebbe runs the world ie either as god or by telling god what to do?
4. Is the Rebbe alive or dead? Do I have to study Kabbalah seforim to get the answer?
5. You said that Avi Ezri changed Pshatim in Gemaras. Who was he and give me an example of a Pshat that he changed. In English please. Remember I’m ignorant.
To yankel berel
I assume you were complimenting me.To Menachem Shmei
I forgot that comment so I’ll concede that point to you, but with a clarification. Because some black hatters are dogmatic I chose to leave that world(I used to be in a Rabbi Miller based yeshiva) This said, I am not anti Chareidi. I am only anti Chabad. So don’t try portraying me as an equal opprtunity hater. Next, ARSo compiled a comprehensive list of issues for you to address. A few aren’t so strong but most are solid. I’d like to add the Rebbe abandoning the plain Pshat in Chelek and announcing that Moshiach will redeem every Jew. And the Rebbe announcing that Gehinnom no longer exists because there’s no such thing as a Jew who sins. Finally you talked your way out of the who’s greater Gra or Baal Hatanya. To your credit you did that well. Here’s the problem it’s almost mathematically impossible that every Godol hador for 250 years can come from one group. The Gaon said that the simple abswer is the truth. The sime answer is that the Rebbe Mr. Anivus looked into his crystal ball and decided w/o any basis to declare the Nesiei Chabad the unquestioned rulers of Judaism. The oy problem is no real Jews are buying any of that nonsense.To yankel berel
I get the sense that CS recognizes the truth, but he feels that he can’t betray his religion.
To the group
When I entered this thread Avira and Neville were the leading anti Chabad voices. Frankly, I wasn’t sure where I’d fit in because I recognized that I didn’t have nearly as much factual information, Torah and otherwise, as most of the participants. I decided to join because I felt I could bring two things to the table. First, I’ve learned quite a bit about Chabad from my associations with many of their Rabbis. Second, I sensed that what’s missing is a spirit of camaraderie among the anti Lubavitchers. What was happening was that individual disputes were breaking out over Pshatim in Chazal and this wasn’t touching on the key point, Chabad’s deification of the Rebbe. I was hoping to push the group in that direction but my plan backfired because I “stupidly” mentioned TV which basically turned the whole thread against me. But there emerged a silver lining as Yankel berel not only came to my defense but he became a powerful voice for the side of truth. Moreover, since he established himself it’s now commonplace for the anti Lubavichers to back each other up, something I was hoping for from the beginning. Menachem will likely keep trying to fight off the onslaught, but even he will eventually realize in the near future that his cause is lost. The Rebbe wasn’t the Godol Hador, he wasn’t a Novi and he most certainly wasn’t god. But Menachem can’t accept those facts.
To Menachem Shmei
You’re on notice. I want you to present evidence that I’m anti black hatter. All my Rabbonim wear black hats including those from YU.
To yankel berwl
Your latest posting was spot on. Menachem Shmei can’t understand that if one must twist the truth to win an argument then his atgument has no validity.
To MenachemLet’s address some of your distortions(that’s a euphemism).
I have stated in this thread that I only criticize Chabad. That’s a fact. I never said anything negative about black hatters. That’s an outright lie.
The Rebbe makes a ridiculous claim that the greatest Jew in each generation for 250 years is a Chabad Nasi and you can defend that. What gives him the right to make such a decision?
Finally, for about a qeek whwn I joined the thread you promoted the notion that the Rebbe is god and challenged me to study the sugya before I make a final decision. I told you clearly that I will never consider such a possibility. Today you flip flop and tell me that you didn’t mean the Rebbe is god what you meant is that a Tzaddik like the Rebbe can reach a state where he becomes completely attached to Hashem Now that’s not problematic so I can accept it. But it’s not what you originally said. I undestand your predicament. Sechel83 finally gave up, why don’t you do the same? The fat lady has sung.