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To Menachem Shmei
If you think we misunderstood you explain yourself.
To Menachem Shmei
It took me a while to respond but I had to go back to find the last question I asked you which you never answered. The question was as follows, “In the letter you posted, the Rebbe seemed to be saying that the Nasi Chabad is the Nasi of just Chabad. So how do you explain why most if not all Lubavichers say that the Nasi Chabad is the Nasi of all Jews?” That’s not tbe only question you refused to answer. If you want to see the others look for my checlmates. As for your question that you asked me seven times, I told you after the first time that I have no intention of studying sources that imply or state that a human being is god. The origimal Christiana supported their heresy with verses, you do the same by misapplying Chazal. Checkmate.To any
I asked you, “If you’re confident that the Rebbe will come back to life and become Moshiach, why are there other Lubavichers who are convinced that the Rebbe is already wearing that crown?” I’m reasonably sure you’re intelligent enough to understand my question, so answer or admit that you can’t. Your diversionary tactics don’t work on me.
To DaMoshe and 5783
Great points. Lubavichers argue their positions very well as long as no one questions them. Then they resort to their typical defenses, Sinas Chinam, Chabad bashing. I spoke to a Chabad Rabbi last night and he told me that you can’t challenge Chabad with logical arguments because the Rebbe transcended logic and natural laws.
To Menachem Shmei
It was your idea to have an open exchange with observant Jews. We’ve kept our end of the deal, but you’ve bowed out. I agree with Yankel Berel Shtikah Kihoda, If you can’t defend your position, you have no position. Looks like checkmate.
To any
You put out 8 consecutive posts, but did not, in any of them, answer my question, “Why do some Lubavichers like you, believe that the Rebbe will have a second coming and become Moshiach, while others declare that he was already anointed?” The simple answer is that two sects will emerge in Chabad as what happened when the original Chritianity split into Greek and Roman Orthodoxy.
To the Group
N0mesorah has declared Chabad the winner of our debate. No surprise, he’s also convinced that the Arabs won the Six Day War and the only reason that history differs is that Jews own the news media. I once heard a Rabbi speak about difficult people. He reminded the audience, “You only have to deal with him a few minutes a day, but he has to live with himself all the time.”
To yankel berel
I really appreciate your straightforward style. If the Lubavichers and their allies admitted defeat we could already be wprking on an 8th Rebbe(my vote is for Rabbi Avraham Zajac)Chabad of Los Angeles.
To any
The Gemara uses deductive reasoning to verify what it already knows. You’re using the same approach to prove that the Rebbe is Moshiach. The difference is that in the case of the Gemara the Tannaim and Amoraim started out with the truths that were passed down by Moshe from Hashem. In your case you’re accepting hints from some Rabbi. And yes, you guys are taking a page out of the Christian playbook by citing Rashis to prove your theories. The original Christians did the same with verses.
To n0mesorah
When you post it reminds me of the following “joke”, “That Rabbi’s shiur was so amazing, no one understood a word he said.” That attitude seems to be your stock in trade. I don’t have the foggiest notion of what your beliefs are, because you intentionally speak out of six sides of your mouth. If it makes you happy to think that you’re above us all so be it. From my experience, rational people enjoy open discourse with each side honestly weighing in on the other’s view. That was Menachem Shmei’s stated goal when he opened this thread but he’s apparently learned that his side is untenable and so he’s retreated to his bunker.
To the Yserbius123
You should be ashamed of yourself for trying to inject logic into this thread. Just kidding. But logic doesn’t work on brainwashed minds.
To Any
I didn’t actually see the Chafetz Chaim’s Psak but I know several Lubavichers who are aware of it, you can check it out with them. On the other hand, I’m still waiting for you to explain how your landsmen can say that the Rebbe has already been anointed. Finally, a dead Jew coming back to become god/Messiah is called a second coming.
To n0mesorah
When I was under attack from members of the group over watching TV, I did what Halacha prescribes and I spoke to a competent Rav. Numerous members of the thread have criticized you. Why don’t you speak to a legitimate Rav about our concerns? You can start by asking him if you’re correct that one need not believe in Hashem if he does the Mitzvos. Of course, you won’t because no Rov is as smart as you are. Shakespeare wrote, “Vanity thy name is woman.” He didn’t meet N0mesorah.To the group
One of my favorite Beatle songs “Nowhere Man” has the lines, “Doesn’t have a point of view. Knows not where he’s going to.” Remind you of anyone in this thread?
To Any
If you want to limit this discussion to the question of whether Moshiach can come from the dead then I would agree that it’s possible. I would add, however, that it’s quite unlikely since the Chofetz Chaim Paskened otherwise. This said there are a couple of problems to address. First, a significant percentage of Lubavichers say that the Rebbe is Moshiach. We therefore have an intrinsic contradiction. Second, if you’ll say that those who proclaim that the Rebbe is Moshiach are wrong then you must explain why Lubavichers, including yourself, are convinced that it’s the Rebbe who will have a second coming. If neither question is answered then this thread serves no purpose.
To mdd1
I understand how you feel but the moderators want to allow all sides to express their views. The Lubavichers lie to protect their idol tbe Rebbe, nom does so to protect his Getchka which is himself.
To yankel berel
You’re a consistent voice of reason and truth. On a personal note you stood up for me when I was bei g attacked. Hashem should reward you handsomely.
To the group
I’d like to introduce somethimg that hasn’t been discussed AFAIK. That would be the claim that the Baal Hatanya was a Neshama Chadasha, the first in 2000 years. Posters on both sidez of the aie can weigh in. I’m uninformed about this subject.
To the group
To those who are Hebraically challenged, I’ll give you a short synopsis, “the king is in the field.”To n0mesorah
Hashem is going to have a hard time judging you because you’re way to smart for Him. Whichever category He puts you in you’ll talk your way out of it. Ueah believe that and the one about the Rebbe being god.To the Group
I don’t understand why my davening in a Chabad shul is causing such an uproar. It’s no different than davening in any other shul. You know in one way it is different. Everyone is nice to each other. And that’s why I like it. Is that so hard to understand? I’ve been friends with the Rabbis for about 20 years.
I’m not your classic hater. I’m simply expressing my opinion that certain Chabad beliefs are heretical.To Lostspark
You obviously expended a lot of time and effort on your latest post. The bottom line is that you want me to leave the thread. As the Yomim Noraim approach you should ask yourself why you’re so afraid of me. I think we both know the answer.
To Always Ask
When I said that one should learn Gemara to train himself to be truthful, it was just my perception. As I’ve said my Torah knowledge is limited so I didn’r know that I was Michavin to the Maharal. Thanks for that info. And it’s a point that can’t be overstated. There are people in this thread who use various methods of deception to “win” the day. It makes no sense to me Of course Avira is also correct that learimg Gemara connects us to Hashem’s wisdom.
To CS
So your Moshiach Rebbe explained to you how the Rebbe is still alive but you can’t tell anyone what he said because those snags are so mean spirited. In any case I see that you had a Rebbe whose job it was to convince you that the Rebbe was Moshiach. Was that class before or after the one in which they taugjt you tjay the Rebbe is god?To n0mesorah
About 30 years ago a friend and colleague who had recently become observant asked me why we ahould spend so much time learning Gemara. He added that the Gemara had no practical relevance in his life. I couldn’t answer him at the time. As I’ve progressed inmy learning I realized the answer. Studying Gemara is a tool to train one in acquiring a sense of truth. N0m you’ve demonsrated throughout this thread that truth is not a valued trait for you and thetefore it makes sense that you would belittle Torah study. 1
To n0mesorah
You claim that Chabad doesn’t try to deify the Rebbe. Then explain why a significant part of our discussion has been whether or not the Rebbe is god. Earth to n0mesorah, it’s the Lubavichers who say he’s god and no other group has or would ever suggest anything so insane. You also argue that if there’s a plan there must be a planner. True but plans are fluid. The Rebbe may have seen himself as Moshiach and assumed that his coronation would take place while he was alive. When he died those who took charge adapted the plan to fit the reality and voila we got Moshiach from the dead.
To CS
Yes I’d like to hear your spin on it. Rational people consider someone alive or dead based on the time honored tradition of vital signs. Of course Lubavichers who are steeped in Kabbalah don’t follow such antiquated methods and therefore they can convince themselves that the Rebbe is still alive. Of course if we follow that logic then a whole lot of other people are also alive. If you want to continue living in your fantasy world I’m not going to try to stop you. It’s a free country.
To n0mesorah
I don’t know when Chabad decided to separate itself from mainstream Jewry but it’s quite clear to any unbiased observer that Lubavitchers consider themselves Chabad rather than Jews. Some people believe that this aberration began with the Rebbe’s passing. To the other extreme, I’ve spoken to individuals who argue quite convincingly that Lubavitch has gone its own way since the Baal Hatanya’s passing. I’m not sufficiently schooled in the subject to make a conclusive statement. Trying to be a wise guy and mentioning Moshe Rabbeinu et al is not going to change the facts. You’ve decided to take a contrarian view on this subject, so you’re blind to the truth that Lubavichers do not represent normative Judaism. We do not deify our Rabbinic leaders.
To mdd1
You’re absolutely right. Even if there was a way to explain this on some esoteric level, it can never be allowed to become part of a Lubavitcher’s everyday speech as if it’s a normative position.
To CS
I would hope you’re right but I highly doubt it. The belief that the Rebbe is Moshiach is deeply ingrained and rarely does logic supersede emotion. Let me give you an illustration. Several months ago I was arguing on another site with a Lubavitcher who was convinced that the Rebbe was Moshiach. I told him that the Chofetz Chaim Paskened that Moshiach won’t come from the dead. At first, he fought me on this point but he ultimately conceded that I was right. Did he then admit that the Rebbe can’t be Moshiach? Of course not. Instead he said the following, “The Rebbe became Moshiach while he was still alive and so it doesn’t contradict Chofetz Chaim and he’ll return to finish the job.” Please don’t try to sell me on the notion that logic will prevail in Crown Heights.
To the group
I asked CS a simple question, “Who was the Moshe of the previous generation?” To date I’ve received no answer. So I’ll answer for him. It was the Rayatz and before him the Rashab backto the Besht. As for the generations that preceded the Besht, Chabad treats them like Chazal treat the generatio s which preceded Avraham, totally irrelevant. To that point on Sukkos when mainstream Jewry pays homage to the 7 Ushpizin Chabad celebrates its 9 Ushpizin.This is a part of a carefully constructed plan to create a new religion within Judaism which they hope will replace Judaism.And that’s why they invented all their holidays. The truth is obvious for anyone who wants to see.
To yankel berel
Menachem shmei claims that “he” holds that many Tzaddimim after Malachi etc had Nevuah. No he doesn’t. What he means is that the Rebbe said this and since every word the Rebbe spoke was Torah Misinai Menachem accepts it. Just as Menachem accepts that all Jews will be redeemed by Moshiach even though this contradicts the Gemara. The Rebbe successfully took away the free will of his Chassidim by forcing them to accept his every word as Nevuah.
To CS
“Every generation has aoshe Rabbeinu.”
Who was Moshe Rabbeinu in the. Dor before the Rebbe? As if we don’t know your answer.To ARSo
Thamks for backing me up. CS thinks I should dan cunin lkaf zchus. Based on what? He hasn’t sacrificed Korbonos for the Rebbe. As for your comment about associating with Lubavichers. I think I can deal with them and not be converted.To CS
So now you’ve clarified what you want us gullible snags to believe what cunin meant. Fine. But even if we accept your premise, why should the Rebbe be the person chosen by Hashem to represent Him not only while he was alive but even after he was dead? He was only the Tzaddik hador according to Chabad? You know the deal. Checkmate.
To Avirah
Thank you for weighing in on cunin’s statement. Despite what CS would like us to believe cunin meant exactly what he said.
To CS
“Cunin lived in a different era.* Would that be in the time pf the Besht? Earth to CS. He’s still alive. As for my state.ent that Mosbiach will rule rhe world. In a sense thst will be true. He will likely forge peace alliances with all the world’s powers lile Shlpmo Hamelech.Of course, that’s only one possibilty..To yankel berel
My apologies. I thought everyone was familiar with the KISS method. It stands for “keep it simple stupid.” Too many of the posters get bogged down arguimg Pshatim in Tanya and the like. This is irrelevant. Lubavichers posit that the Rebbe is god. Nothing .ore need be said.
To ARSo
You’re making two mistakes. First, you assume that all Lubavichers are the same which is that they’re trying to convert every Jew to Chabad. Second, based on that misconception, you accuse the Rabbis of that shul of missionizong. That’s patently false.The only thing they do to that end is simg Yechi after Kabbolos Shabbos on Friday night.To CS
You apparently misunderstood my question, so I’ll repeat it. If you challenged me for sayi g that Moshiach will run the world do you also challenge cunin for saying that the Rebbe runs the world?
To yankel berel
Kudos for your straightfoward approach. The KISS method works best in dealing with Chabad.
To 741
The answer to your question is simple. While I and many others believe that Chabad is on an AZ trajectory, it is not actually AZ until an official Psak is declared. Therefore I have no problem davening in that shul. Moreover, only the Rabbis are Chabad not the congregants. Finally, the Rabbis are lovely people and we like and respect each other despite pir theological differences.
To CS
I don’t know what you’re referring to when you mention obnoxious people. I assume it’s directed at something I said. In any event you’re certainly correct that there are good and bad apples in every bunch. I’ve yried to make it clear that my issues with Chabad theology are not personal and that’s why I can attend a Chabad minyan.
To n0mesorah
Let me explain what I mean by militant Chabad. From my experience, all Lubavitchers believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach, that he’s a Novi and that he runs the world. What makes a Lubavitcher militant, in my mind, is if he has no regard for any non Lubavicher. This Rabbi called Rav Aharon Kotler, “Some Rabbi who opened a little Yeshiva in New Jersey.” About the Chafetz Chaim he said, “Had he been Chabad, he might have been something.” No I don’t mean militant in that he beats people up.
To CS
You’re absolutely correct that Moshiach will not take over from Hashem, the responsibility of running the world. I made an incorrect statement and checked myself. But here’s my question, “‘If you acknowledge that Moshiach will not usurp Hashem as the ruler of the world, why do you have no problem with cunin’s(I’m using a lower case “c” because he demeaned Hashem’s Malchus) statement that the Rebbe has already taken over?
To n0mesorah
It’s not exactly correct that Rav Dovid humbled himself. This is who he was. He didm’t consider himself superior to anyone
And he learned this from his father. Once Rav Moshe was walming to MTJ and he heard a woman call out Mosishie(she was addressing her son who was also going to the Yeshiva). Rav Moshe turned around thinking that the woman was calling himTo CS
You ask why it’s hard to fathom Hashem handing the world’s car keys to the Rebbe. Aftsr all that’s what will happen when Moshiach comes. Yes tjat’s what will happen when Moshiach comes. But tjete are no Moshiach tryouts. Hashem knows who will take the reins. Sometime hopefully in the non too distant future.To Menachem
At the beginning of Dr. Berger’s book he said that he initially had a good impression of Chabad. It was the same with me. A group of Lubavich boys would come to our shul on Simchas Torah to dance with us. They seemed to embody Ahavas Yisroel. Everythi g changed for me in 2003 when I began attending a certain shul whose Rabbi was militaristically Chabad. He would mock Gedolim on a regular basis. I’ll share a quote, “The Rebbe can’t be compared to any Rabbi. He can only be compared to other Neviim.” And I’ll give you another one, “The Rebbe is the reason the world was created.” On top of this I lisrened to Rabbi Butman on Motzi Shabbos and he acted as if non Lubavichers don’t exist. Finally I read Dr. Berger’s book and the story was clear. And it gets clearer and clearer that Chabad is not a valid form of Judaism. Now it’s certainly true that there are nice Lunavichers, juzt as it’s true that there are not nice people in all strains of Judaism. But no group lives by postulates that are anathema to Judaism as does Chabad and that’s why we challenge them.
To CS
“As for Cunin’s statement about the Rebbe running the world. I suplose he mrans as Hashem’s agent.” Nice move CS, mention Hashem and get the snags to sirrender. Here’s the problem. Why does the Rebbe run the world as Hashem’s agent? What makes him special? Because you guys decided that he’s the Nasi hador, the Moshe Rabbeini Hador, and all the other Chabad Bubbe Maasehs. The point is that when you claim that the Rebbe runs the world you’re declating that he’s elevated over everyone else, and mainstream Jewry categorically rejects this.
To Menachem Shmei
Still waiting for your answer. Looks like there’s a checkmate in your near future.
To 2scents
You make a terrific point which I’d like to expand on. In a perfect world both sides would present their argumemts honestly and we ithout rancor. But this site isn’t a perfect world. Many of tje pafticipants lie and/or present opinions as facts. Exacerbating the problem is that when they’re called out, they either deny what they’ve done or avoid the subject. It can be frustrating but most of the posters have been part of this site for years and tbey’re not going to change. I think the moderators have done a great job maintaining some sense of decorum I previously wrote in a different venue and it devolved into cheap name calling. One guy decided I was a Christian missionary who was angry at Chabad for stealing his prospective clients.
To ARSo
I’m specifically referring to Coffee, ujm, and lostspark. Read their posts and the venom comes tjrough. As for others you’re right they simply disagree with my positions. Btw you never provided the Hey Jude posting. Don’t sweat it.
To Menachem Shmei
I’ll repeat my question of the other day. According to the letter ypu provided, the Rebbe seems to be saying that the Nasi Chabad is the unquestioned leader of Chabad, but not all the Jews. However based on my experience all Lubavichers believe that each Nasi Chabad is Nasi for Klal Yisrael. Please clarify.To Menacjem Shmei
Lubavichers have decided that they do not want to be part of normative Judaism and they clearly see Chabad as distinct. Since this is your Mehalech it’s quite obvious that ypu could careess about a Psak accepted by all observant Ashkenazic Jews. This Psak, as every Lubavicher knows, was formulated in response to the Shabbetai Tzvi debacle amd therefore Arizal’s opinion is irrelevant. Moreover your idiotic swipe at Rav Reuvein is a thinly veiled attempt to make it sound like this is a recent Psa
. You know full well that this Psak is 300 yearz old. The point of the Psak is that one may not begin studying Kabbalh until he is fully conversant in Nogleh. If, like Ramchal, that occurs
before reachong 40 tjen he’s the exception. Teenagers in Crown Heights are told toaster Kabbalah. So yes ypur Rabbis are in violation of ignoring the words of the Sages.edited
To n0mesorah
Your latest posting reminds me of an incident that occurred probably a de ade ago. Rabbi Boteach was on Zev Brenner’s program. Someone called challenged him for teaching Torah to a gentile Cory Booker. He tried a few times to change the subject, bit finally he came up with, “It’s only Asur to teach Torah to a goy if you want to convert him.” Boteach has one law, je’s always right. The same for n0mesorah. Thete’s an ironclad Psak against learning Kabbalah which Chabad dismisses and Nom defenfs themby saying Chabad only studies safe Kabbalah. No such distimction exists, but Nom like Boteach can’t accept beimg beaten