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To the group

It was like pulling teeth, but I finally got Menachem Shmei to admitthat according to the Rebbe the Nasi Hador in every generation starting with the Baal Hatanya was Chabad. Therefore the Alter Rebbe was bigger than the Gaon. The 5th and 6th Rebbes were greater than the Chafetz Chaim. Obviously that’s nonsense but the Rebbe consistently taught his Chassidim that they were superior to other Jews just as their leaders were above other Rabbis. And the joke is that Chabad tries to sell us on the idea that the Rebbe was anav mikal adam.

To Menachem Shmei

You singled out yankel berel and myself as Chabad bashers, but I think it’s clear that there are at least a dozen others in the thread who feel exactly the same way. So I ask you, “Why are we attacking Chabad?” And to clarify the question, as yankel berel said, it’s only a criticism of your theology, it’s nothing personal. Moreover, as I’ve said at least twice in this thread, I have no problem with any group except Chabad. So why don’t you weigh in on this question?

To n0mesorah
You stated that in your opinion Nevuah never completely ended. What gives you the right to challenge our Mesorah? It would seem that your affinity to Chabad is because you each look to tear down our traditions. When I joined this thread you insulted Rav Moshe, albeit unintentionally. You then said that you hold him in greater esteem than the Rebbe. Rav Moshe didn’t argue against Gemaras like you and the Rebbe. I put you ahead of him because you think you’re bigger than everyone.

To lostspark

What is Menachem’s qurstion thst you clsim I haven’t answered? Repeat it for me and I’ll answer you.

To yankel berel

I accept your critique. I obviously agree with you because I have many wonderful assciations in Chabad. Many years ago before I became fully frum I went to a singles Shabbaton. The Rabbi spoke about the famous Rashi of Libi Amar Li. Something hit me and years later it was aajor turning point iny life. We don’t expect any Lubavicher to see the light immediately, but Rabbi Akiva taught that a drop of water makes an imprezsion on a sto e.

To any

I told you more than once that I didn’t see his Psak. I’m relyi.g on the word of others. If you want to know whether such a psak exits just ask the Mechaber. Look to me it’s totally irrelevant. Thete’s no reason to think that the Rebbe is Moshiach.

To moderator

You’re asking me to tone down my rhetoric, but “any” makes baseless accusations against me. If you’ve learned one thing about me from this and other posts, I don’t lie.

You are being asked to stop the personal attacks. As in ‘you are just a …’ as opposed to ‘your opinion is….’

To CS

I understand your plight. You realize that your beliefs are ridiculousbut you feel that you can’t betray your Rebbe. I can’t tell you what to do, but at some point the truth will stare you in the face and you’ll have to accept it.

To any
You’re all over the place when you write so let me clarify the subject for the group. The first time I heard the about the Chafetz Chaim’s Psak was in 1995 from a Lubavicher. I then verified it wirh one of my Rabbonim. A few months ago I was xenating this subject on a diffetent site and I .mentioned what the Chafetz Chaim said. A Lubavucher challenged it but I told him to ask around. He did and confirmed what I said(I still have ‘t actually seen the Psak.) Anyway that Lubavicher then decided that the Rebbe necame Moshiach before he died and he’ll return someday to finish the job. All I asked you is how many Lubavichers agree woth you and how many with that guy? My other queztion is why you guys are so obsessed with the subject?

Can you please tone it down

To Menachem Shmei

If you think we misunderstood you explain yourself.

To any

I asked you, “If you’re confident that the Rebbe will come back to life and become Moshiach, why are there other Lubavichers who are convinced that the Rebbe is already wearing that crown?” I’m reasonably sure you’re intelligent enough to understand my question, so answer or admit that you can’t. Your diversionary tactics don’t work on me.

To Menachem Shmei

It was your idea to have an open exchange with observant Jews. We’ve kept our end of the deal, but you’ve bowed out. I agree with Yankel Berel Shtikah Kihoda, If you can’t defend your position, you have no position. Looks like checkmate.

To the Group

N0mesorah has declared Chabad the winner of our debate. No surprise, he’s also convinced that the Arabs won the Six Day War and the only reason that history differs is that Jews own the news media. I once heard a Rabbi speak about difficult people. He reminded the audience, “You only have to deal with him a few minutes a day, but he has to live with himself all the time.”

To any

The Gemara uses deductive reasoning to verify what it already knows. You’re using the same approach to prove that the Rebbe is Moshiach. The difference is that in the case of the Gemara the Tannaim and Amoraim started out with the truths that were passed down by Moshe from Hashem. In your case you’re accepting hints from some Rabbi. And yes, you guys are taking a page out of the Christian playbook by citing Rashis to prove your theories. The original Christians did the same with verses.

To the Yserbius123

You should be ashamed of yourself for trying to inject logic into this thread. Just kidding. But logic doesn’t work on brainwashed minds.

To n0mesorah
When I was under attack from members of the group over watching TV, I did what Halacha prescribes and I spoke to a competent Rav. Numerous members of the thread have criticized you. Why don’t you speak to a legitimate Rav about our concerns? You can start by asking him if you’re correct that one need not believe in Hashem if he does the Mitzvos. Of course, you won’t because no Rov is as smart as you are. Shakespeare wrote, “Vanity thy name is woman.” He didn’t meet N0mesorah.

To Any

If you want to limit this discussion to the question of whether Moshiach can come from the dead then I would agree that it’s possible. I would add, however, that it’s quite unlikely since the Chofetz Chaim Paskened otherwise. This said there are a couple of problems to address. First, a significant percentage of Lubavichers say that the Rebbe is Moshiach. We therefore have an intrinsic contradiction. Second, if you’ll say that those who proclaim that the Rebbe is Moshiach are wrong then you must explain why Lubavichers, including yourself, are convinced that it’s the Rebbe who will have a second coming. If neither question is answered then this thread serves no purpose.

To the group

I’d like to introduce somethimg that hasn’t been discussed AFAIK. That would be the claim that the Baal Hatanya was a Neshama Chadasha, the first in 2000 years. Posters on both sidez of the aie can weigh in. I’m uninformed about this subject.

To n0mesorah
Hashem is going to have a hard time judging you because you’re way to smart for Him. Whichever category He puts you in you’ll talk your way out of it. Ueah believe that and the one about the Rebbe being god.

To Lostspark

You obviously expended a lot of time and effort on your latest post. The bottom line is that you want me to leave the thread. As the Yomim Noraim approach you should ask yourself why you’re so afraid of me. I think we both know the answer.

To CS
So your Moshiach Rebbe explained to you how the Rebbe is still alive but you can’t tell anyone what he said because those snags are so mean spirited. In any case I see that you had a Rebbe whose job it was to convince you that the Rebbe was Moshiach. Was that class before or after the one in which they taugjt you tjay the Rebbe is god?

To n0mesorah

You claim that Chabad doesn’t try to deify the Rebbe. Then explain why a significant part of our discussion has been whether or not the Rebbe is god. Earth to n0mesorah, it’s the Lubavichers who say he’s god and no other group has or would ever suggest anything so insane. You also argue that if there’s a plan there must be a planner. True but plans are fluid. The Rebbe may have seen himself as Moshiach and assumed that his coronation would take place while he was alive. When he died those who took charge adapted the plan to fit the reality and voila we got Moshiach from the dead.

To n0mesorah

I don’t know when Chabad decided to separate itself from mainstream Jewry but it’s quite clear to any unbiased observer that Lubavitchers consider themselves Chabad rather than Jews. Some people believe that this aberration began with the Rebbe’s passing. To the other extreme, I’ve spoken to individuals who argue quite convincingly that Lubavitch has gone its own way since the Baal Hatanya’s passing. I’m not sufficiently schooled in the subject to make a conclusive statement. Trying to be a wise guy and mentioning Moshe Rabbeinu et al is not going to change the facts. You’ve decided to take a contrarian view on this subject, so you’re blind to the truth that Lubavichers do not represent normative Judaism. We do not deify our Rabbinic leaders.

To CS

I would hope you’re right but I highly doubt it. The belief that the Rebbe is Moshiach is deeply ingrained and rarely does logic supersede emotion. Let me give you an illustration. Several months ago I was arguing on another site with a Lubavitcher who was convinced that the Rebbe was Moshiach. I told him that the Chofetz Chaim Paskened that Moshiach won’t come from the dead. At first, he fought me on this point but he ultimately conceded that I was right. Did he then admit that the Rebbe can’t be Moshiach? Of course not. Instead he said the following, “The Rebbe became Moshiach while he was still alive and so it doesn’t contradict Chofetz Chaim and he’ll return to finish the job.” Please don’t try to sell me on the notion that logic will prevail in Crown Heights.

To yankel berel

Menachem shmei claims that “he” holds that many Tzaddimim after Malachi etc had Nevuah. No he doesn’t. What he means is that the Rebbe said this and since every word the Rebbe spoke was Torah Misinai Menachem accepts it. Just as Menachem accepts that all Jews will be redeemed by Moshiach even though this contradicts the Gemara. The Rebbe successfully took away the free will of his Chassidim by forcing them to accept his every word as Nevuah.