qwerty613

To Rabbi Menachem Shmei

I think I’ve made my position quite clear but I’ll repeat it. I do not engage in discussion with anyone who asserts that a human is god. Chazal tell us that a judge who judges properly is a partner with Hashem in creation. Since you’re such a Maamin in these statements then you must believe that all honest judges throughout history worked in tandem 5783(or ~15 billion years ago remember I’m MO) with G-d. That would really be polytheism. How do I, a Torah Jew, understand this Chazal? We say in the davening that each day Hashem recreates the world and so an honest judge is a partner with Hashem because he acts according to Hashem’s wishes. This is a rational approach which does not tamper with the fundamental beliefs of Yiddishkeit. So for the last time don’t give me any more of your Christian proofs. I’m not buying it. Checkmate. And this time it’s final.

To ARSo

Yes you got it. I grew up minimally religious. Only went to shul on Shabbos mornings. At that time my life revolved around sports and music. At the age of thirty I began a journey towards legitimate Torah Judaism. For several years I went sans TV thinking that I had to exorcise my previous influences. Over time I found that I can still follow sports, listen to music yet still spend most of my time learning. I am not suggesting that this is the ideal. For those who want to follow the Chareidi model I say Kol Hakovod. Unfortunately a number of posters are so mean spirited that they refuse to read what I’m saying. I accept every expression of legitimate Torah Judaism. Chabad, of course, is excluded because, as Menachem Shmei has told us, they believe the Rebbe is god.

To Yserbius

Don’t waste your time asking Shmei any questions. He started this thread by stating that he wants to have an open exchange with Torah Jews, but in fact, in the last few days he’s demonstrated that his real goal is to convince us of his belief that the Rebbe is god.

To Lostspark

If Moshiach rules that TV is Assur, I’ll immediately throw mine out. You’re trying to portray me as obsessed with the boob tube. As I mentioned last week, I learn 7 hours a day and only watch about an hour. You should ask yourself why you’re so troubled by the fact that I have a TV. My suspicion is that you(and Coffee Addict) have been brainwashed into believing that anyone who watches TV, is a Kofer ain Lo Chelek Olam Habo. That we eat pork, cheat on our wives, what have you. It’s eating you up because you realize that I’m nothing like what you’d like to believe. Checkmate.

To 2scents
Glad you asked and I’m happy to answer. I entered the fray about 3 weeks ago. I immediately sized up Rabbi Menachem Shmei and nailed him with an unassailable argument against his Did you really think of this post as “civil responses”?

To Rabbi Menachem Shmei
Boy do I get to you. Checkmate. Use

Hey Jude
You don’t write that often but when you do you really nail it. The Mishna on Avos warns Chachom to be careful with their words. Had the Rebbe issued clearcut statements this mess would have been avoided, but he chose not to do so.

To Rabbi Menachem Shmei

You make a good point, to wit, how can Rabbi Schachter know to whom Lubavichers daven? The answer is simple. Because of his Talmudic genius, he has Ruach Hakodesh and Malachim revealed this information to him. Similarly, you can ask how Rav Shach knew what was going on in Brooklyn. So we know that he was the Godol Hador which means he was the Moshe Rabbeinu Hador and so he had the same level of Nevuah as Moshe and this allowed him to see what the Rebbe was doing.If you think that’s ridiculous then understand what Jews think when Lubavichers claim that the Rebbe is god. Checkmate.

edited

To Rabbi Menachem Shmei

Before we began this thread I had no idea that the idea of the Rebbe as god clothed in human form came from the Rebbe himself. All I knew about this is that Rabbi Dr. Berger said that eight Rabbis from Oholei Torah said this. The point is that you can’t accuse me of lying since it was Sechel83 who introduced the Sicha. I have never looked at any of the Rebbe’s Sichos and I plan to keep it that way. Sechel83 said that the Rebbe called himself god clothed in human form. The anti Chabad side, not just me, called this Avoda Zarah. Sechel83 realized that heade a mistake and denied saying this. That’s the truth edited

To Sechel83

So now you’re backing off from your previous statement that the Rebbe himself stated that he’s god clothed in human form and all the Gedolim of that time, including Rav Moshe accepted this. Instead you’re saying that no Lubavicher holds like this and no Lubavicher davens to the Rebbe. Instead you’re blaming “some professor” for all the bad press Chabad receives. Let’s take a closer look at that “professor”. He is Rabbi Dr. David Berger. He has Semicha from YU where he graduated as valedictorian. Rabbi Dr. Berger named 8 senior Rabbis from the vaunted Oholei Torah who claimed that the Rebbe was god clothed in human form. Had he been lying he would have been sued for millions. As for your contention that no Lubavicher davens to the Rebbe, Rav Hershel Schachter, one of the world’s most respected Roshe Yeshivos stated on Dovid Lichtenstein radio program that many Lubavichers daven to the Rebbe instead of to Hashem and this is Avoda Zarah. Now I’ll ask you this, “Since you’ve backed off from your previous statements do you also agree that the Rebbe isn’t Moshiach?”

To the group
I think that n0mesorah is right that this thread, which has been quite extraordinary has run it’s course and so it would seem that closing remarks are called for. On the Chabad side, Sechel83 articulated their view. The Rebbe, in 1962, declared that he is G-d clothed in human form. Neither Rav Moshe nor any of the other Gedolim protested and therefore we can conclude that they all agreed that the Rebbe was god. Everything was fine until that Berger fellow came along. On the anti Chabad side well nothing need be said.

To Sechel83

While some or all of the participants aren’t members of the qwerty 613 fan club no one has questioned my writing ability. This said I think my last post was crystal clear. If the Lubavicher Rebbe actually stated, as you claim, that he is G-d clothed in human form then he is a self made Avoda Zarah. Moreover I will guarantee that Rav Moshe never heard of any such pronouncement or he would have put him in Cherem and ruled that Lubavichers can not be included in a minyan etc. To make it clearer I don’t believe the Rebbe ever said this and if he did Rav Moshe never heard it. Don’t you dare suggest that Rav Moshe would allow such heresy and idolatry.

To mdd1

The quote you intended was, “Denial is not a river in Egypt.” I don’t understand how you can have the nerve to call out Avira when you lack the intellectual honesty to admit that you mistakenly criticized me. Clearly, you can’t accept Mussar so you prove that Rabbi’s point that people shouldn’t be chastised.

To the group

As promised I spoke to someone who is completely reliable and he told me that watching TV is no worse than any other activity in which your eyes might be exposed to inappropriate material. I told him that basically I restricted my watching to sports and he said it’s OK. Obviously, I can’t reveal his name but he is an enormous Talmid Chacham. For the sake of honesty I will admit that the other side definitely has upon whom to rely. Yes the Gedolim like Rav Moshe and many others were totally against it,(unlike mdd1 I admit that I was wrong for implying that this was solely a Rabbi Miller crusade) but the person I asked is an unimpeachable source. Bottom line, you guys should continue to abstain, but I’ll continue to ask in accord with my Rabbonim who perhaps, are more Meikel.

To Sechel83

You’re writing isn’t clear, but I think you’re saying the following, “The Rebbe stated that he was G-d clothed in human form(or something equivalent) and Rav Moshe endorsed this.” If I understand you correctly then you are completely out of your mind. As I’ve told the group I’m an East Sider who has been close to the Feinsteins for 60 years. They are the most grounded, logical people anyone could imagine. If Rav Moshe would have heard such heresy, he would have immediately ruled that no lUbavicher can be included in a Minyan. This is way beyond even my conception of Chabad.

To the group

I just read an incredible article. It’s in the English Forward June 2022. A Chabad Rabbinical student, Yossi Newfield, was studying for his semicha in Melbourne and his high school Gemara Rebbi at Oholei Torah came to give a lecture. Surprisingly, the entire class was devoted to explaining why the Rebbe couldn’t be Moshiach, since this would violate Rambam’s dicta on the subject(as I’ve been saying since I joined this thread.) Rabbi Newfield said that his classmates ignored what they heard, but he knew it was the truth and abandoned Chabad(but remained frum). Apparently, there is hope that at least some of these Lubavichers can be saved, but Rabbi Newfield admitted it wasn’t easy making the break.

To Coffee addict

I thought you’d say that. Many yeshivish people, meaning the ones with money, attend these and other such programs, but the Gedolim generally don’t make edicts that the Machers won’t accept. Let’s take a look at some recent history. About 20 years ago the Gedolim tried to curb big weddings. The Gvirim put the Kibosh on that idea and it was quickly dismissed. The big boys went along with the TV ban, and that’s why it took effect, but had they protested it would have been abandoned. I assume, but I’m not sure, that the MO world never accepted the TV Takanah although their Rabbanim do adhere to it. This is my perception. If I’m wrong please set me straight. I wasn’t able to meet my Rov tonight to speak to him but I should have an answer tomorrow.

To mdd1

You have a tendency to get into 1 on 1’s with your disputants. Please keep in mind that everyone in the group wants to understand the subject so we can weigh in. I, for one, had no idea what you were talking about. All I could tell is that you were attacking Avira.

To sechel83

There has never been a question about the Rebbe’s genius, so I have no problem believing that he knew Kol Hatorah Kula by heart(I’m not saying that he did, but I wouldn’t argue against it.) The issue is how Lubavichers came to the conclusion that the Rebbe is “G-d clothed in human form.” It’s because of statements like the one you quoted. I know that Rabbi Menachem Shmei will try to defend it, but there is no defense for promoting outright Avoda Zarah.

To Coffee Addict

“Do Rabbanim have to give Pesakim for things that are an issue in the Torah?”
I’m reasonably certain that there’s no Posuk in the Torah stating, “Thou shalt not watch TV.” Rabbi Miller argued that TV qualifies as Sefarim Chitzonim and therefore anyone watching TV has no Cheilek in Olam Habo. I shared this with my Rov who is a Posek(unlike Rabbi Miller) and he laughed off what Rabbi Miller said. As for those posters who are inventing their own Doraysos let’s add that it’s a form of suicide because it’s Bitul Zman and killing time is tantamount to killing oneself. If you like that, then going to a restaurant is also suicide. The point is that Rabbonim most definitely Pasken when a new issue arises. I am not advocating that people watch TV. And I’m not arguing that most Rabbonim are against the practice. I’m simply questioning if it’s actually prohibited or if it’s a odds with the Chareidi norm. As you can see I don’t identify with Chareidim. You can see my earlier posting today on the subject. Halacha is not in the realm of the masses.

To Rabbi Menachem Shmei

You answered my challenge very well. Chabad is lucky to have such a bright fellow as its representative and I’m not saying this “Altz Chanifah” which I despise almost as much as lying. I think it’s pretty clear that you do have Smicha. I would ask the following, “Do you agree that it’s wrong to plaster the city with signs promoting the Rebbe as Moshiach?”

To Rabbi Menachem Shmei

Your apology is accepted. Several other people in the thread, all non-Lubavichers, have incorrectly attacked me, but when I pointed out their errors they refused to acknowledge them. And it’s simply a matter of Gaavah. To be fair, I do come off as arrogant, which can be a turn-off, but that’s just my writing style. In real life, I’m rather timid. Remember I’m a Lower East Sider and we have a reputation, which I try to uphold, for humility, which is why I admitted to not being nearly as Torah-knowledgeable as most of the other participants.

To Avira

I completely agree with you. A speaker has to know his audience. Some congregants can hear straightforward Mussar and some can’t.

To mdd1

Please reread what I wrote. (It’s at the start of #13) I quoted my Rov as saying that a Rabbi has no right to tell others what to do, rather he simply acts as a role model. I would never suggest that presenting Mussar is inappropriate. You guys keep looking to catch me but I told you I am a true Totah Jew, just minus the black hat. The Rabbonim with whom I associate are giants and they show me as much respect as I give them, so you’re barking up the wrong tree if you think you’ll prove that I’m open Orthodox or conservadox. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I just believe in being receptive to different types of Jews. In that regard, I’m like Chabad. Yes, I believe that the Rebbe’s initiative of spreading Judaism throughout the world was tremendous. I’ll stop here so as not to be edited.

To coffee addict

I’m not impressed with some juvenile attempt to play Rabbi. Show me a written Psak from a university accepted Posek

To mdd1

‘it’s an absolute lie and perversion of the Torah to say that a Rabbi has no right to tell his congregants what to do.”

My friend, you clearly know nothing about the concept of giving rebuke. Outside the Yeshiva world minyanim are a smorgasbord of Jews. On Shabbos, I went to my shul and it hosted an aufruf. There were about 60 guests all of whom were Mechallel Shabbos(they were on their phones throughout.) My Rov is one of the nicest people you’ll ever meet and an enormous Talmid Chacham. His goal is to be Mikarev such Jews. But according to you, it was his responsibility to stand up at the Bimah and tell them that they’ll all burn in Gehinnom. The point is that a Rov has to know his congregants. Yes, Rabbi Miller and others of his type could give straight Mussar but that’s because their followers hung on their every word. This however isn’t generally the case and so if a Rabbi goes fire and brimstone the next week he’ll be looking for a new shul. This is the reality but those, like you, who restrict themselves to the Yeshiva world have a very myopic view of the Jewish landscape.

To Avira
I accept your comments vis a vis Rabbi Kahane. I think we should move away from that point and focus on Chabad. The only reason Kahanism came up is because Rabbi Menachem Shmei was trying to depict me as an idiot so I retaliated by noting that he omitted Kahane’s title. Instead of simply admitting that he made a mistake edited  tried to defend himself by saying that it’s enough to say HYD. Then you joined in and the discussion became heated. But it’s time to move on from this.

To Coffee addict

Prove your contention that watching TV is equivalent to eating a cheeseburger.

To Avira

It seems from your attitude about Rabbi Kahane that you would wish harm on Mr. Ben Gvir. You claim to be Yeshivish and you hang on every word of your Rabbonim. Do they teach hating other Jews or is this your own view? Either way it’s not a good look and the Lubavichers will say that you’re just a hater who decided to also pick on them.

To DaMoshe

You’re absolutely right. Avira is a good guy and I’d say he’s the leading anti-Chabad voice in this thread, but his way over-the-top anti-Kahane stance can’t be justified.

To 5783 and Jude

You guys are obviously right, but Lubavichers aren’t interested in logical arguments because their pseudo-Judaism is Avodah Zarah.

To Avira
I really don’t want to belabor this point but I’ll share with you what my Rov said, “Chabadism and Millerism are both cults.” What he means is that the Rebbe’s and Rabbi Miller’s followers are both convinced that their mentors were never wrong. Now I’ll add that we can’t equate the two because Rabbi Miller’s essence was Torah, but basically, I agree with my Rov’s assessment and I’ll prove it. You’re unable to admit that Rabbi Miller was wrong about Chabad. Instead, you’ve convinced yourself that he changed his mind about them as he got older. The only reason you’re doing so is that you need to believe he was perfect. But he was far from perfect. By the way, I have a friend who also gave me that Rabbi Miller changed about Chabad argument and I told him it’s not worth arguing about. The main thing is to stay focused on the real problem which is Chabad.