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To Avira

I don’t consider myself yeshivish and therefore I believe I’m more open minded than you. I respect the entire spectrum of Orthodoxy except of course, Chabad, which is clearly not a legitimate expression of Judaism. There’s a shul on the Lower East Side which is pretty far left,(though it’s officially Orthodox) and I go there occasionally because I like the Rabbi. My Feinstein connections question my attendance but I tell them that I’m a grownup and I can decide for myself what’s right or not. As you can see my attitude doesn’t shtim with someone like Rabbi Miller who felt that his congregants should blindly follow his every word. Just for the record, I’m quite Makpid on every Mitzvah particularly learning, but, and don’t throw me out of the thread for this, I watch some TV. Let me quote my Rav, “A Rabbi is nothing more than a role model and he has no right to tell his congregants what to do. This may not be your way but it works for me.

To Avirah

I was told unequivocally that the Halacha states that anyone killed because they’re Jewish goes to Olam Habo. I asked this question after the Pittsburgh shootings. Frankly, Rabbi Miller’s opinion makes more sense to me but this is what I was told, and the people I asked were heavy hitters. I readily admit that I’m not a scholar but I do have a logical mind and a strong sense of truth and I check my opinions with unimpeachable sources. I’ll give you another example. Rabbi Miller said no turkey on Thanksgiving, but Rav Moshe permitted it. Who do you think I, as a Lower East Sider follow?

To Avira

Rabbi Miller said he wasn’t a Gadol and I agree with him. Look it’s really a meaningless argument. I don’t think that there is a definable way of judging who is and who isn’t a Godol. As I see it, it’s completely subjective. I would appreciate it if someone in the thread would explain how one attains the status of a Godol BYisrael. By the way, if you want to call Rabbi Miller a Gadol that’s certainly your right, but my Rabbonim do not think of him that way.

To Rabbi Menachem Shmei

By all means I’ll call you Rabbi. Why not? If you’re lying then you’ll have something else to explain to Hashem beside the fact that you insulted me and refused to apologize.

To Avira

So it seems that you consider yourself qualified to decide which Jews who were murdered, were killed Al Kiddush Hashem and which were not. Do you agree that all 6,000,000 million Jews who were slaughtered, died Al Kiddush Hashem or was it only the Shomrei Torah U’Mitzvos? I spoke to Poskim on this question when the Jews in Pittsburgh were killed and I was told unequivocally that any Jew who is killed because he’s identified as a Jew dies Al Kiddush Hashem and is guaranteed an immediate ticket to Gan Eden. As an interesting aside, that Posek told me that Rabbi Miller wouldn’t agree with this Psak. I understand that you’re a follower of Rabbi Miller but he was not a Posek and he was not a Godol, but he was definitely a great man and a great Marbitz Torah. His opinions, however, don’t stand up against the consensus of Poskim.

To Menachem Shmei

“The title for someone killed Al Kiddush Hashem is HY”D as I wrote not rabbi” So you would refer to R Elchonon Wasserman ZTL as HY’D without the honorific because the Nazis killed him? Look you made a mistake. It’s not the end of the world. But the problem is that your Gaavah won’t allow you to admit it. By the way you also owe me an apology for calling me arrogant and ignorant. And what do you think about the “FACT” that the Feinsteins, as currently constituted, don’t like Chabad? Curious to see how you’ll try to squirm out of that one.

To Avira

I’m shocked by your statement. I am by no means a follower of Rabbi Kahane but he died Al Kiddush Hashem and you have the temerity to throw dirt on his grave. Now you and n0mesorah both have some serious Tshuvah to do. The good news is that we’re almost in Elul so it’s perfect timing.

To Menachem Shmei

Apparently, you’re taking a shot at me because I admitted I’m not a Talmid Chacham. Despite what you’d like to believe that doesn’t Passul me for this thread. One of the points you keep repeating is that Rav Moshe thought well of the Rebbe. I won’t challenge that, however, I know, as a fact, that this is no longer the opinion of the Feinsteins. As I mentioned, I’m a doctor and one of Rav Moshe’s grandsons is a patient, and he is completely in lockstep with my view. And he’s not the only member of the family who feels this way, but I’m not at liberty to give any more details. Now you’ll ask, how could they argue on Rav Moshe? The answer is simple. A Godol is not a “god”ol. Anyone can challenge his views, yes even family members. I’ll give a second proof of this. Rabbi J.B. Soloveitchik was good friends with the Rebbe, but that didn’t stop Rav Hershel Schachter, his Talmid Muvhak, from publicly stating that many Lubavichers daven to the Rebbe instead of Hashem and calling this idolatry.

To Menachem Shmei

Let me explain my situation. I daven in a Chabad shul in my neighborhood. I listen to the Rabbi’s speeches and read the materials he brings in. From these sources I’ve learned about Chabad and the Rebbe. In a similar vein, for many years I attended a yeshiva run by Rabbi Avigdor Miller’s Talmud Muvhak. From the Rosh Yeshiva I learned Rabbi Miller’s shitas. In addition, I grew up on the Lower East Side and developed lifelong friendships with the Feinstein families. Finally, despite going to Yeshiva, I wasn’t fully frum until I turned 30 and I didn’t begin seriously learning until I was fifty. Long story short, I don’t have the time nor the ability to study all the available sources firsthand as I’m a practicing doctor and I learn Gemara about 7 hours a day. I agree that it’s best to study original sources but I’m doing the best I can to arrive at the truth. As for your comment that I theorized the Rebbe’s opinion. That’s incorrect. What I said is what I heard in shul, and I trust that the Rabbi accurately reported what the Rebbe said because he was reading one of the Rebbe’s letters. If I misrepresent any of the Rebbe’s views, by all means correct me. I’ll then check it out to verify what you said. I readily admit that most of the people in the thread have more Torah knowledge than I, but few can match my logic and love of truth.

To Menachem Shmei

I stand corrected. So we see, according to Menachem, even Crown Heights accepted Rav Moshe as the Posek Hador. So now we return to my basic point. If Chabad wanted to establish the Rebbe as a Novi why wouldn’t they seek out Rav Moshe’s Haskomah? The answer is simple because there was never any question of the Rebbe being a Novi while he was alive. This is nothing but an invention of his followers. What I believe the Rebbe did say, because I heard this from a Lubavicher, is that every Nasi Chabad had Ruach Hakodesh. But Ruach Hakodesh is NOT nevuah. As Avira correctly stated, Nevuah begins with “Koh Amar Hashem” or some equivalent expression that G-d spoke to the person. I can’t believe that we’re spending so much time arguing about such a simple and basic principle. That’s what happens when the other side loses its capacity for rational thought.

To Menachem Shmei

Did n0mesorah ask you for help in dealing with me? I made him an offer. If he wants me to answer his challenge he has to do public Tshuvah for insulting Rav Moshe. It’s surprising that you’re defending him since he agrees with normative Judaism that Rav Moshe was much greater than the Rebbe.

To n0mesorah

When you admit that what you wrote about Rav Moshe was slanderous and you publicly apologize, I’ll respond to your challenges. You don’t have to remind me that I haven’t answered. It’s totally intentional and it’s because you’ve behaved like a boor.

To n0mesorah
You’re denying that you insulted Rav Moshe? You stated that there was a global campaign to discredit him. Your intention was to make it seem as if all the Rabbis in the world were renouncing him. Anyone reading that post would come to that conclusion. Now you clarify your statement. Sure there were Poskim who disagreed with his position but everyone accepted him as the Gadol Hador. Now the reason you implied otherwise is because I said that he could have tested the Rebbe as a Novi and you needed to find some way to reject that idea. Have you no shame? That’s a rhetorical question?

Let’s take a step back. What we can discern from this and similar threads is that Lubavichers believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach and that he is(was) a Novi. Not long ago England crowned a new king. The event was witnessed by hundreds of millions throughout the world. Chabad is telling us that the Rebbe was anointed Moshiach, essentially making him king of the entire world, but no one knows about it. There’s not even a YouTube clip. And as for his being a Novi, one of the posters said this was proven during the 6 Day War. At that time Rav Moshe was the unquestioned Gadol Hador. All that was needed was for the two to meet and Rav Moshe would have tested him. As Avira correctly stated, Nevuah is definable, it’s not voodoo. Chabad wants us to trust them at their word. No chance. We are a stiffnecked people. Finally, how ridiculous is it to suggest that the Rebbe understood Pshatim in the Gemara that no one in the last 2000 years knew?

To Menachem Shmei

Thanks for your latest submission because now I comprehend your position. For 2,000 years Klal Yisroel believed the simple Pshat that Nevuah ended during Bayis Sheini. No Tanna, Amora, Gaon, Rishon or Acharon challenged this. Then the Rebbe tells the world that no one understood Pshat until he came along because, in fact, Nevuah still exists. For 2,000 years people learned the Gemara which said that just as only 2 of 600,000 Jews left Egypt and came to Israel, so too only 2 out of 600,000 Jews will be redeemed by Moshiach. No one ever questioned this until the Rebbhe decided that he knew the real Pshat and all Jews will be redeemed. Chabad calls the Rebbe the Moshe Rabbeinu Hador. Moshe’s most distinguished trait was humility. What Chutzpah for anyone to suggest that he knows more than all the Tzaddikim who came before him.

To Avira
I really don’t want to argue with you because it’s clear that our Hashkahahs are closely aligned. This said you spent the better part of yesterday challenging my statements against the Rebbe. Now you’re basically repeating what I said. Please clarify your position. As I’ve made it clear my issues are with Chabad AND the Rebbe.

To mdd1

The only thing Lubavichers want to do in these threads is to keep us off balance because they can’t deal with the truthful, logical arguments we present. I think you’re doing a great job, so keep it up. The only advice I’d offer is that you ignore everything the Lubavichers say and keep pounding away at them. You can’t change them because the Rebbe is their god, but hopefully, some people who haven’t yet seen the light will change their tune when they see the evidence.

To Avira

I have no intention of trying to guess what will happen to Chabad but you’re certainly free to speculate. As for the Chair issue, it’s much ado about nothing. I just used it as a red herring to demonstrate the fallacy of Chabad theology. Again, according to Chabad pigs will be kosher when Moshiach comes so how can they say that the Rebbe is Moshiach? It’s simple logic. All I’m doing, along with some terrific posters, is pointing out some of the flaws in Chabad’s belief system as well as issues that must be raised about the Rebbe. Do I agree that the Rebbe was a supergenius? Absolutely. And his worldwide Shluchim movement is tremendous. Moreover, his explanations of Rashi are extraordinary. So I’m not writing him off by any means. But at the same time anyone who rejects any word of the Torah, be it Oral or Written must be taken to task. And I’m not interested in his proofs, just as I wouldn’t be interested if Rabbi Sacks ZL objected to, say slavery, and wrote the most incredible thesis(of course he’d never do such a thing). But the Rebbe did. Avira, we’re not that far apart. Admittedly I turn people off because I sound cocky. It’s the fact that I know I’m telling the truth that emboldens me.

To ARso and mdd1

Are you really just struggling with the concept of nasty and rude? Or can you just not help yourself?

To Avira
I appreciate your comment but I really don’t think I said anything that crossed the line, no name-calling, etc. Anyway, what they did post this morning is basically what was rejected last night. <yes, what was rejected-minus everything else.>

The point is simple, Lubavichers believe that the Rebbe is empowered to change the Torah as he sees fit. Hopefully, n0mesorah will accept that as proof that Chabad stands apart from other Chassidic sects.

To CR

I’ve sent a number of submissions in the last two days but they haven’t been posted. Instead, you’ve only posted from Lubavichers. Seems unfair. Especially since I’m responding to challenges.

Posta have been both deleted and approved from “both sides of the aisle”. Nasty personal attacks and overall mean-spirited personal comments are deleted. This is just a partial list of suggestions.

To Seichel83

Dr. Berger wrote in his book that eight prominent Chabad Rabbis averred that the Rebbe was “G-d clothed in human form.” A few years ago, David Lichtenstein, a Chabad lover, interviewed Dr. Berger on his radio show. Lichtenstein didn’t challenge Dr. Berger’s contention, rather he said that you can’t judge the entire movement because of a few nut job Rabbis. I don’t know what percentage of Chabad believes this insanity but don’t try denying that it doesn’t exist. By the way Edited

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To Nomesorah

Thanks for clarifying your position and I’ll gladly respond. You’re arguing that Lubavichers are like all other Chassidim in that they attribute godlike qualities to their Rebbe. That’s disingenuous. No Chassidic sect claims that their Rebbe is Moshiach, that their Rebbe is/was a Novi, that their Rebbe is still alive despite the fact that he was interred almost thirty years ago. As for why we should be troubled by their questionable beliefs and practices that’s simple. They proselytize. The Rabbi of the YI in my community is Chabad. I attended that shul about twenty years ago. This Rabbi constantly mocked non-Chabad Rabbis including the Chafetz Chaim, Vilna Gaon, and Rav Aharon Kotler. I will quote that Rabbi, “The Rebbe is the reason the world was created.” Now I know that Nomesorah will posit that he’s a lone wolf, but that’s nonsense. Rabbi Butman clearly articulated the belief in some, but not all Chabad circles, “When the Besht arrived, Gemara-based Judaism became null and void, and when the Baal Hatanya arrived all other Chassidim became irrelevant. Houston we have a problem no we have two problems. The second is that someone like you who’s clearly bright can’t or doesn’t want to accept the obvious truth. It seems that you’re simply a contrarian.

To Nomesorah

I’m glad you clarified that you’re not Chabad, As for your insinuation that I am equating Chabad with Christianity. I never made such a statement. What I did say is that Lubavichers treat the Rebbe like a god. They attribute powers to him as if he’s different than anyone who’s ever lived. I don’t think that any rational person would challenge that position.

To Nomesorah

I’m confused. You told Sechel that you’re not convinced that the Rebbe is Moshiach and then added that you wouldn’t debate a Chabadsker online vis a vis Chassidus and Kabbalah. This would imply that you’re not Lubavitch. On the other hand, you vehemently reject the implications that Chabad is akin to Christianity. This is generally the position of a Lubavicher. Would you be kind enough to clarify who and what you stand for? If you’re just a contrarian then that’s okay, as that forces people to make clear-cut and accurate statements. By the way point number two to Seichel was spot on. When Moshiach actually comes there will be a sea change in the world. Everyone will be aware of it. Seichel posits that there’s a secret society and they alone know that the Rebbe is Moshiach. Where does that come from?

To Menachem Shmei

Based on your postings, I’d consider you a Chabad moderate as compared, at least, to someone like sechel83. Since you started this thread I assume you’re still following it. I therefore ask you or any other Lubaviuchers who consider themselves reasonable to comment on Sechel’s explanation of why he believes that the Rebbe “IS” Moshiach.