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July 31, 2023 7:29 pm at 7:29 pm in reply to: Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher #2212419qwerty613Participant
To Nomesora
Let’s get the facts straight. Coffee addict asked if Lubavichers think the Rebbe is/was perfect and if Moshiach will be perfect. The implication of perfection is that he will be unlike any human who has ever lived, because, as 2scents said(according to Rabbi Miller) even Moshe Rabbeinu “sinned.” I then told Coffee addict that no Lubavicher will answer his question and, true to form, Seichel83 changed the narrative by referring to the Rebbe as a Tzaddik Gomur which has nothing to do with infallibility. So feel free to dodge any question you want, but at 120 you’ll have to answer them. Finally, mddi is absolutely correct, beliefs that are antithetical to the Torah place one outside the realm of Torah Judaism.
July 31, 2023 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm in reply to: Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher #2212379qwerty613ParticipantTo seichel83
Coffee addict asked if the Rebbe and/or Moshiach will be perfect. Perfect means that they never do or say anything wrong. This is what L’Havdil the Christians say about Yoshka. Perfect means that whatever the Rebbe said cannot be wrong or questioned. To call him a Tzaddik Gomur evades the question because it doesn’t address whether said person is infallible. Again a classic case of Chabad dodging the subject. One more point. Don’t you know the spelling rule that it’s “i” before “e” except after “C”?
July 31, 2023 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm in reply to: Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher #2212350qwerty613ParticipantTo coffee addict
First let me say to you and 2scents, I’m really jealous of your cool handles. Just kidding. To your point. There’s a Klal Godol, no Lubavicher will ever respond to any question raised by someone they perceive as an opponent(snag.) I learned that when I posted on VIN. They assume we’re trying to trap them(in a sense we are, ie we want them to admit that their theology is a lie.) They feel that the safest play is to ignore the questions and they’ll disappear.July 31, 2023 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm in reply to: Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher #2212336qwerty613Participant2scents,
I’m quite familiar with Rabbi Miller as I spent 30 years learning with his Talmid Muvhak. Rabbi Miller was a fan of the Rebbe and Chabad but if he fully understood both the individual and his followers I’m sure he would have changed his position.
July 31, 2023 2:52 pm at 2:52 pm in reply to: Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher #2212331qwerty613ParticipantTo 2scents
Thanks for that tidbit. I’m quite familiar with Rabbi Miller’s teachings as I spent thirty years in the yeshiva of his Talmud muvhak. It’s interesting that Rabbi Miller was a fan of Chabad and the Rebbe but I think he wasn’t aware of their more outlandish doctrines.July 31, 2023 6:39 am at 6:39 am in reply to: Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher #2212077qwerty613ParticipantTo 2scents
I am new to the CR(about two weeks) so I wasn’t familiar with your handle. I greatly appreciate your rational approach to the subject.July 30, 2023 6:35 am at 6:35 am in reply to: Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher #2211967qwerty613ParticipantTo Neville
I think I’m going to follow your lead. You’re absolutely right that it’s checkmate because every Lubavicher believes that the Rebbe is, or will be Moshiach, and they do so based on no real evidence.
July 28, 2023 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm in reply to: Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher #2211804qwerty613ParticipantTo the entire group.
Pardon my impertinence, but at the end of the day who cares what really happened in that story? Let it be that the Lubavichers involved were totally in the right and they were accosted by vicious Satmar hooligans. So what does that have to do with this thread which is aiming to determine if Chabad promotes a theology that’s alien to Torah true Judaism? In fact, Lubavichers love to change the discussion from Meshichism to any other subject, especially one in which they look like the good guys and Satmar the crazies.
July 28, 2023 12:37 am at 12:37 am in reply to: Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher #2211619qwerty613ParticipantTo ujm.
Then, by all means, explain it to me, since he obviously refuses to do so.
To Shalom-al-Israel
I’ve found nothing objectionable in anything square root said. Present examples instead of making a blanket, random accusation. If a line was crossed I’ll acknowledge it.
July 28, 2023 12:15 am at 12:15 am in reply to: Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher #2211593qwerty613ParticipantTo Menachem Shmei. I asked you to clarify what you meant by Israeli Lubavichers are extremists. You answered that you were clear enough in earlier posts. Obviously, I must lack reading comprehension skills because I didn’t find your explanation. Menachem painted himself into a corner by criticizing a segment of Chabad and now he doesn’t know how to fight his way out. As for seichel 83, don’t either bother trying to answer my question because you have the writing, spelling, and logical skills of a four-year-old. It’s so sad. Menachem Shmei said he wanted to have an honest, open discussion with non-Lubavichers. Now we understand what he means by honest and open.
July 27, 2023 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm in reply to: The Five Most Likeliest Candidates to be Moshiach #2211557qwerty613ParticipantThe only certainty is that if he’s not the Rebbe, Chabad won’t accept him.
July 27, 2023 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm in reply to: Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher #2211553qwerty613ParticipantThanks for the clarification Avira. Most of what I know about Chabad is experiential. I live in an area where many Chabad rabbis function and so I study(spy on) them. I appreciate someone like yourself who likely has more factual knowledge on the subject. I think these two approaches complement each other quite nicely. BTW, Seichel 83 and Menachem Shmei are still on the clock, but I doubt they’ll answer my questions. I know how to checkmate Lubavichers. I do it all the time in my neighborhood. Surprisingly, I get along quite well with them, except for one who’s particularly militant against mainstream Orthodoxy.
July 27, 2023 2:47 pm at 2:47 pm in reply to: Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher #2211527qwerty613ParticipantTo Jude
I didn’t say that Lubavich was the first to do Kiruv. I simply asked Neville CB to elaborate on his statement that Kiruv originated from the Yeshivah world. As for your statement that Chabad disavows those BT’s who choose mainstream Judaism you’re absolutely right as this story will demonstrate. About ten years ago an old man in the shul I was attending passed away on a Friday. On Shabbos, I saw a nonobservant friend talking on the phone with the deceased’s daughter helping her make the funeral arrangements. Sunday night I came to that Shul and was told that I missed a beautiful service since the deceased’s grandson spoke and he was a Rabbi. I was baffled so I spoke to the Shul’s Chabad Rabbi. He explained that the Niftar had two daughters, one the Mechallel Shabbos, and the other who had become frum through Chabad. The Chabad couple sent their son to YU where he got Smicha. I told the Rabbi how wonderful that was and he gave me a dirty look and then he mumbled something under his breath. I immediately understood his intent. As far as he was concerned the Chabad couple should sit shivah for their son for abandoning their faith.
July 27, 2023 1:47 pm at 1:47 pm in reply to: Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher #2211452qwerty613ParticipantTo Menachem Shmei
You stated at the outset of this thread that you want to engage in an honest, open dialogue with anti-Lubavichers. If that’s so, please clarify what you meant when you said that Israeli Lubavichers, as compared to their American counterparts, are extremists.
July 27, 2023 7:40 am at 7:40 am in reply to: Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher #2211444qwerty613ParticipantTo Neville Chaim Berlin
You stated that the BT movement came out of the Yeshiva world. Would you be so kind as to elucidate? I was in a Young Israel some years back that was headed by a Chabad Rabbi. He said the following, “The Rebbe invented Kiruv. When he started all the Rosh Yeshivos attacked him saying it was Bitul Torah. But when they saw he was successful they tried to copy him.”
July 26, 2023 1:38 pm at 1:38 pm in reply to: Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher #2211278qwerty613ParticipantTo Menachem Shmei
“I’ve personally never had an honest discussion with the more extreme Lubavichers since they’re all Israelis and many don’t have much of a head on their shoulders etc.”
If I understand you correctly it’s the Israeli Lubavichers who are extremists, while the American branch is normal. This said, you claim that the American Lubavichers who “see” the Rebbe in 770 also visit the Ohel? Please explain that inconsistency, and elucidate what makes Israeli Lubavichers crazy, at least in your opinion.July 26, 2023 1:30 pm at 1:30 pm in reply to: Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher #2211145qwerty613ParticipantTo Seichel 83
“My opinion is I have my Rebbe and I accept him 100%.” So in other words, you have no opinion of your own. That would explain why Lubavichers can’t come to a consensus on some rather basic questions for example is the Rebbe alive or dead? Obviously, reading the Igros doesn’t provide all the answers. -
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