RSo

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  • in reply to: Joining Chabad #1698980
    RSo
    Participant

    Anyuser, where is there justification for saying that someone is, will be, may be, moshiach can be based on a hergesh.

    The entire hergesh thing in cases like this is “I want, therefore it is.” There is NO place in Yiddishkeit for this, and it is what leads to apikorsus.

    I know of one case of hergesh in halocho, and it is tomei, vd”l.

    in reply to: Joining Chabad #1698214
    RSo
    Participant

    SHY in response to my claim that the lubavicher rebbe had NONE of the Rambam’s criteria for being bechezkas mashiach: “he definitely had some.
    Such as הוגה בתורה ועוסק במצות כדוד אביו.”

    Are you really claiming that he was hogeh beTorah as much as Dovid. I can’t disprove you, but I can pity you that you think so lowly of Dovid.

    But even aside from that, he still doesn’t fit the criteria because there is NO indication that Dovid was oviv.

    Lubavich claims that the Baal Hatanya was a direct descendant of Dovid Hamelech, although the sources for this claim are only lubavich sources. Your rebbe was ben achar ben from the Tzemach Tzedek who was a son of R Sholom Shachna Altshuler, and he was not a descendant – ben achar ben or otherwise – of the Baal Hatanya. So the much-publicized claim that the lubavicher rebbe is a descendant of Dovid Hamelech is meaningless for two reasons.
    1. Because we have no independent source saying that the Baal Hatanya was ben achar ben from Dovid.
    2. Even if we did, to be a candidate for moshiach you have to ben achar ben from Dovid, and the lubavicher rebbe has no such even supposed yichus.
    Although I suppose it is entirely possible that someone has proven the lubavicher rebbe’s yichus with a proof as strong as everything else that has been said about him.

    in reply to: Joining Chabad #1698212
    RSo
    Participant

    Anyusername in numerous posts: “@rso your saying according to the second opinion in rashi:”

    I don’t know what you’re trying to say here but neither option in Rashi leaves it possible to say that anyone who has died, other than Daniel himself, can be mashiach. And even that is only according to the first explanation of Rashi.

    “explain this – why were they trying to find names of their teachers as the name moshiach???”

    I don’t know. Do you? As I wrote, you can interpret it your way but NONE OF THE MEFORSHIM say it explicitly. To tell us that that is obviously what they meant is wishful thinking. Btw, thanks for all the extra question marks. I can use them when I see lubavichers.

    “every generation has a nosi hador – it doesnt just stop ( if you KNOW what the definition of nosi hador is)”

    So you prove yourself right by saying something which you can’t back up. There is NO nossi hador. Who says there is? Oh, I forgot, the lubavicher rebbe said it…

    “We consider the Rebbe to be nosi hador based on our hergesh”

    Thank you for saying that. It now makes it all clear. Your entire belief system is based on what you feel. I suppose I should be thankful that you don’t have a hergesh the yoshke was nossi hador.

    “if you feel that your rov is the nosi hador -gezunterheit”

    No, it’s not “gezunterheit”, it’s xian.

    “nosi hador is moshiach shebidor”

    As attested to by whom? Let me guess…

    “are you gonna tell me that moshiach is only from the few ppl mentioned in the gemoro”

    No. But you certainly can’t say that based on the gemoro it’s the dead lubavicher rebbe. Btw, at the time Rebbi Yehudah Hanossi (Hador?) was still alive. And that’s what the gemoro is saying according to the fist opinion of Rashi.

    “have you ever learnt gemoro b4”

    If by “learnt gemoro” you mean distort it the way you and many others of your ilk do, then BORUCH HASHEM no. Never!

    “on Rav Shach zt”l, who had 10 times the amount of people at his levaya than the Rebbe
    So??
    Who said that’s what defines a nosi??”

    No one said that because there is no such thing as a nossi.

    in reply to: Joining Chabad #1697470
    RSo
    Participant

    yehoshuaahron are you CS in disguise? Most of us have been through all this tripe on the thread that she started months ago and which has lain dormant for a while.

    In a nutshell:
    1. There is no such thing as Nossi Hador nowadays, and there hasn’t been for thousands of years. Lubavich made up the term so they can apply it to their rebbe and since no one else applies it to their rebbe/gadol (again, because it doesn’t exist) lubavich gets to trump (small T) everyone else because they have the nossi. Well guess what, my rebbe is the Reish Galusa! That beats (I don’t want to use the word trump again) the nossi title – see Sanhedrin 5a – and since lubavich never thought of that one (and neither has anyone else for the same reason that no one has thought of nossi except for you) I win.

    2. Find me a source where it says Shimshon was ever a nossi. (If you’re busy I’ll save you time. It doesn’t say it anywhere, except perhaps in lubavich fiction, and even there I haven’t actually seen it written about Shimshon.)

    3. The lubavicher rebbe did not have ANY of the criteria for chezkas moshiach as outlined in the Rambam. Saying he does is distorting the words of the Rambam and leads us to wonder whether the person doing so is indeed an apikorus.

    4. The Gemoro in Sanhedrin 98b DOES NOT say that the talmidim thought their rebbes were moshiach. Neither Rashi nor the Maharsho say so. Of course, you can interpret that that’s what the talmidim really meant (as a lubavicher you should be able to interpret anything to fit what you want it to mean, as that is what you are good at) but they don’t say that at all.

    5. (Here is another example that leads me to think that those who use this “proof” are either card-carrying apikorsim, close to it, absolute amei ha’aretz or stam plain stupid.) The gemoro’s mention of Doniel in connection with moshiach DOES NOT allow for anyone to say that any other person who is not alive may be the moshiach. Rashi gives two explanations. The first is that if moshiach is someone who has already died “IT WAS DONIEL”. The second is that if you are looking for someone who has died “TO COMPARE MOSHIACH TO” it is Doniel. To take that gemoro and say that since the gemoro says that moshiach may be among those who have already died I can say it is Ploni is, as I wrote, either apikorsus or stupidity, just as it would be apikorsus or stupidity to say that since the gemoro says that you have to make kiddush on Friday night I’m allowed to say that you have to make kiddush on Monday night.

    To summarise: you and your cohorts spout absolutely baseless garbage and R”L call it Torah even though it has nothing to do with the Torah. There is one person who is largely to blame for this, but he is no longer alive… according to some opinions.

    in reply to: Joining Chabad #1697471
    RSo
    Participant

    To Lubavicher who asks us to stop the hate and asks who cares what group a person follows?

    Lovely thoughts, but not justified. Do you care if a person follows the reform or conservative movement? Or if they follow j for j?

    I do, because it is anto-Torah, and much of what some of the lubavichers on this forum have said is also anti-Torah.

    in reply to: Joining Chabad #1696902
    RSo
    Participant

    zhavasdad: “Gezen Deh Heh”.

    Did you see the dalet and vov as well?

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1688272
    RSo
    Participant

    Lechaim: “But it looks like that’s the only things you know of chabad so I won’t argue but if you want truth find out a bit more.”

    We’ve been dealing with this claim that you made for 41 pages now, and I for one am quite sick of it. We’ve answered all the charges leveled against us, and as far as we’re concerned the lubavichers on the forum have not satisfactorily answered ours.

    So please, instead of just rehashing old stuff go back to your Mesivta and learn there. I don’t know why a young bochur is reading this stuff anyways.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1687959
    RSo
    Participant

    Lechaim123, sorry that you were expecting a better answer, I can only answer what I believe to be the truth.

    And I don’t know how you deduced that I was saying that there won’t be any frum people left. To be honest, there aren’t that many now either, compared to the Jewish world population and lehavdil the rest of the world.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1687829
    RSo
    Participant

    meirs: “We [I assume he means Why] do litvaks and chassidim become lubavitch all the time but it’s never the opposite?”

    Even assuming that what you say is true, it’s for the same reason that more people become non-religious than become religious. We live in an olam hasheker and, unlike the yeter horo, the truth rarely wins.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1687409
    RSo
    Participant

    samethenylic, I beg to differ. They have been taught (i.e. brainwashed) to believe whatever their rebbe told them and whatever they want to believe. To them propaganda and the truth are a blurry mix.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1684725
    RSo
    Participant

    So is there no lubavicher rabbi who will publicly “pasken” that the lubavicher rebbe is bechezkas mashiach?

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1681511
    RSo
    Participant

    BBO, I see kum va’asei different to shev v’al taaseh. Maybe I’m wrong there, but it’s only relevant to that one post which I retracted.

    And as to tefillin, if people wouldn’t wear tefillin because they don’t have a guf noki or because they can’t be meisiach daas, then not only would I not denigrate them but I would say they are doing what halachah says to do. Sleeping outside a sukkah if one is able to sleep in it is against halachah.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1680561
    RSo
    Participant

    Not sure my posts went through as I was having computer troubles, so I’ll try to be short and summarise.

    1. My earlier comparison of not sleeping in a sukkah and not eating cholent was stupid! Delete that. The correct reply was said by Neville that lubavich has turned the heter of not sleeping in a sukkah into a show of how great ovdei Hashem they are.

    2. Knaidlach et al (I had mistakenly included BBO in this group), we’ve been through all this before. The sicha about not sleeping in a sukkah is based on warped lomdus which we don’t accept, and no amount of telling us what a great tzaddik your rebbe was will change that.

    3. Some of us here, myself included, do not have a high opinion of your rebbe at all and we think that although he must have been charismatic and highly intelligent he was warped and he had delusions of Messianic grandeur. Don’t try telling us that there are hordes of people who “know” he was a tzaddik and that we are in the tiny minority, as we are not. We have virtually all of the Litvish/yeshivish world on our side, as well as a number of large chassidic groups.

    Sorry if my earlier posts do go through and this is just a short rehash.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1680508
    RSo
    Participant

    “I ask with respect and with the desire to be educated in the meaning of terms that seem to contradict each other, but are routinely used”

    You came to the wrong forum if you want to be EDUCATED about the contradictions in Chabad. Here the non-lubavichers point them out while the lubavichers dissemble about how they are not contradictory.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1680507
    RSo
    Participant

    I want to retract my earlier post comparing not sleeping in a sukkah to not eating cholent. The comparison is faulty and not worthy of discussion. I was short of time and wanted to come up with an explanation quickly, and I did, but it was a totally inadequate and wrong explanation.

    What I should have written is what Neville wrote: There is actually a substantial heter to not sleep in the sukkah that many non-Chabad people in northeast America rely upon. The problem is that Chabad will never say they are relying on this heter. They instead created their own logic and now refer to not sleeping in the sukkah as a chumrah. They institutionalized the heter to the point that those who could otherwise sleep in the sukkah just fine don’t.”

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1680121
    RSo
    Participant

    BBO: “I take issue with that outlook on yiddishkeit. I may have a very holy and ancient minhag to not keep shabbos, but as long as i keep it in the realm of MINHAG and don’t bluff that it has a halachik and legal basis, then im alright?!”

    There is a difference between shev v’al taaseh and kum va’asei. Not keeping Shabbos is kum va’asei and no minhag can allow actual chilul. But if there was, say, as minhag not to make eat cholent then that would be ok. Same here. If there is a minhag not to sleep in a sukkah I would find that ok.

    However, having said that, I do understand your objection. It’s just that I don’t object in the same way.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1680116
    RSo
    Participant

    BneiBarakObama: “@rso, did you not say before that you have no issue with the minhag of sleeping in sukkah?”

    Yes. I indeed have no problem with their minhag. But I have a great problem with the crooked lomdus used to justify it and to show how they are really trying for a supposedly higher level than the halacha.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1677178
    RSo
    Participant

    Hi. Nice to be back.

    Rockstar, firstly I don’t see how you can compare Rishonei Ashkenaz with something made up within the last 100 years.

    Furthermore, the Gemoro itself says that tefillin need a guf noki and also that one may not be meisiach daas while wearing tefillin. It is for both of these reasons that we (at least the vast majority of us) wear tefillin only while davening Shachris even though the original mitzvah was to wear tefillin all day. When it comes to sukkah, however, there is no such caveat and Chazal explicitly say that sleeping is to be done in the sukkah.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1664141
    RSo
    Participant

    CS, in case you’re still following this thread, and I believe that you are, I will attempt to explain clearly what Syag was (I believe) trying to convey, and what I meant by my comment.

    You said that you’re sure “the rebbe didn’t approve” of your post. So Syag asked you what about HKB”H?

    What (I believe) he meant was that what seems to concern you is only what your rebbe approves of, not what Hashem approves of.

    So you answered that you believe that Hashem “would say the same because this is my derech. However if I was in a derech that stressed kanaus above all else for example, it could be Hashem would be fine with it”. In other words, other people may hold that Hashem wants something else, but your concern is what your rebbe holds that Hashem wants.

    Theoretically that’s fine. Every shita is based on its understanding of what Hashem wants. But then you should have written something like “our rebbe taught us that Hashem doesn’t want us to speak that way”, not that this is what our rebbe wants.

    This is the crux of the issue that went over your head. You have replaced Hashem with “the rebbe”.

    Syag, did I get it right?

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1664137
    RSo
    Participant

    Neville: “Why not compare? It’s an identical situation.”

    Because if it was directly compared they would have yet another excuse to avoid the topic.

    But in truth, it’s not identical. Sh”Tz encouraged being oiver chiyuvei krisus.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1663770
    RSo
    Participant

    coffeeaddict: “To 29 (and probably 100 too)
    You couldn’t change שליט״א to זצ”ל?”

    Give them a break. How are they meant to know in this thread who is a shlita and who a zatzal? 🙂

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1663763
    RSo
    Participant

    CS, I believe Syag’s question went totally over your head… and that is part of the problem.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1663698
    RSo
    Participant

    coffeeaddict: “RAV Shach שליט״א”

    Did you write that by mistake, or are you a closet Litvishe meshichist?

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1663219
    RSo
    Participant

    Do the right thing, you’re heart is definitely in the right place, but what happens when a person believes that someone has gone beyond the boundaries of the Torah? Do we then say, well, he has lots and lots of followers so we should stay out of the discussion?

    If that were true how would anyone have known which side to take when Sh”Tz came on the scene (again, I’m not comparing, just illustrating a point)?

    Despite the greatness of Rav Avigdor Miller z”l, I think DaasYochid put it very nicely.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1663110
    RSo
    Participant

    (continuation 1))
    Chossid: “But you kept quiet after I responded to you regarding if he Rebbe made up the concept of nossi hador, and Sheva mitzvos is “Stam mishigasim”.”
    Are you talking to me. I certainly did not keep quiet in regards to replies pertaining to either of these topics.
    1. I proved how the title nassi hador was invented by your rebbe and applied (at least by implication) to himself. Saying that it’s just a different version of tzaddik hador, or the like, is simply not true. We can have a number of people in the same generation referred to as tzaddik hador, or gadol hador, or mofes hador, but there is only one reference to nassi hador, and that is lubavitch. So he is clearly at the top of the pile.
    2, I proved time and again FROM THE RAMBAM’S OWN WORDS how getting a goy to keep 7 mitzvos without a kabbolo in front of three erliche Yidden is worthless, and no one was able to refute or rebut that.
    So how can you say that I kept quiet on those topics?

    ” And you just say this “It’s all boich sevoros built on air and baseless claims made by your rebbe.” First you have zero respect for a talmid chochom, not even to mention a tzadik, Bal ruach hakodesh, and mofsim.”
    Firstly, I don’t say that everything he said is boich sevoros. But I do say it about his crooked lomdus about not sleeping in the sukkah.
    As far as “respect for a talmid chochom, not to mention a tzadik”, I have no less respect for him that 99% (no exaggeration there) of lubavich has for Rav Shach.
    “Bal ruach hakodesh” – I don’t believe that.
    “Mofsim” – I don’t believe that either. In any case. lubavich never believed in using mofsim to prove someone’s worth. What changed? And furthermore – and NO, I’m not comparing – S”Tz also performed “mofsim”. I don’t recall any source that someone has to respect someone merely becaue they perform mofsim. If there is a source for it I would be interested to see it (even without a connectionn to this thread).

    “Does everyone hold of the heter of shaving your beard? Or just one man deomar said the heter”
    Are you seriously suggesting that there is only one man de’omar who is mattir shaving?

    “Get it straight, not every shita Lubavitche has (and same with everyone else), has to have a haskomoh from the world”
    And you write this despite in the very next paragraph quoting me repeating myself for the umpteenth time how I have no problem with different minhogim and hashkafos?!
    But to return directly to your point, it’s not as simple as you make it. Every group has the right to their own shitos and hashkofos AS LONG AS THEY DON’T PERVERT THE TORAH. You do hagbah differently, you have your own customs of dress, you have a seder chassidus. Who cares? You’re entitled to do that. But it’s when lubavichers pervert the Torah that we object strenuously.
    For example, as I have said a number of times, I don’t care that you don’t sleep in the sukkah (and there have been claims made that some other groups don’t either). But to pervert the pshat of mitztaer, coupled with the result that those who don’t sleep in the sukkah are actually on a higher level than those who do, is totally unacceptable.
    You can’t expect other people to accept your shitos/hashkofos if according to basic pshat they go against Halocho and the only justification for them is a sevoro that your rebbe made up that is not acceptable to anyone else.

    (to be continued)

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1663125
    RSo
    Participant

    (coninuation 2)
    Chossid: “And who is bechlal the “Torah world”, and who made up this concept?”
    The truth is that I had originally used the term “chareidim” but because I have seen lubavichers recoil at that term being used to describe them (and, to be honest, there are many lubavichers that I know that I would hesitate to call chareidim) i changed it to “the Torah world”.
    So who are they? All chareidim who believe that to do things against halocho without a valid halocho source, is perverting the Torah.
    You may note that in general I haven’t attacked lubavich for davening past zman tefilla, and this is because there have been gedolei olam of past generations who have sanctioned this if the davening was preceded by hours of proper preparation, and I believe that that’s where it started in lubavich as well. (I HAVE said that it is a problem in lubavich, but this is because I continue to see how it is abused by many people who treat davening with a minyan and zman tefilla as a joke.) But what I strongly object to is statements like, “We don’t believe in zman tefilla.” Yes, I have been told that on more than one occasion. That is a perversion of the Torah.

    “So before you do that [i.e. learn the lubavicher rebbe’s chassidus] you should be quiet.
    Case closed.”
    Does that mean that I’m not allowed to argue? That is really powerful!
    But just in case there are others who don’t considered the case against me closed, what about Rav Shach’s Torah. How many lubavichers learn Avi Ezri with the idea that they might understand his ways and shitos? Do you? (Oh! I forgot that I can’t address you because the case is closed.)
    Futhermore, it’s not like I initiated an attack on, say, Satmar, that you can say to me that I should learn Al Hageulah V’al Hatemurah before I argue with him. I am arguing against lubavich who have been forcing their rebbe’s chassidus and shitos down my own throat for decades. If lubavichers tell me their shitos/hashkofos without me asking them to, and I argue with them, they then can’t turn around and tell me that before I argue with them I should learn their rebbe’s words inside. Don’t start and you won’t be attacked!

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1663130
    RSo
    Participant

    Chossid asked for clarification on how on the one hand I can say that one should not perform mitzvos for the sake of bringing Mashiach, while in a later post I wrote that it’s brought in seforim (Amud Ha’avodah et al) that one should perform mitzvos in order to “enable” kevayochol Hashem to give us sechar.

    I’m surprised that it took this long for anyone to point that out, as when I wrote it I wondered if/when it would be asked.

    The way I understand it the difference is that Chazal tell us “schar mitzva, mitzva” and seforim therefore explain it the way they understand it on a higher and deeper level. Nowhere, that I know of, do Chazal make a statement that has led to gedolei olam of earlier generations – the Amud Ha’avodah was a contemporary of the Baal Shem Tov – saying that one should perform mitzvos in order to bring Mashiach.

    Of course, it’s only “that I know of” and I am willing to be corrected.

    Btw, Chossid, you wrote “You don’t need to respond. I think it’s worthless.
    And waste of time. Until you want to open up a safer and learn the a subject and check the facts, before you come to conclusions”

    I have opened a “safer” (I like the way you spell that) and I have learned the subject and checked the facts. So that is why I have come to my conclusions. They may be wrong, but I’ll need you or someone else to show me why.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1663144
    RSo
    Participant

    I just realized that I had completely omitted replying to the earlier longer post of Chossid. The one that the mods censored because of “Kavod haTorah”, so here goes. (Btw how does one get to be a mod and read all the censored stuff?)

    “There is no difference between the chassidus thought by earlier Rebbeim and the Rebbe it’s all one hemshech and based on each other.”
    It’s easy to say that, but for those of us who have seen what we believe are perversions of chabad, and of hashkofo, in the chassidus of the most recent rebbe, it’s impossible to believe that it’s all one hemshech and based on each other.

    “For some reason you always focus on the people that don’t agree with Lubavitch, do you know that so many of your neighbors don’t think like you.
    Day by day there is only more people learn chassidus chabad, not less”
    Yes, a lot of my neighbors, don’t agree with me. But a lot do. And “day by day” there are more people who learn Rav Shach’s Torah and who hold of his shitos, who learn the Satmarer Rebbe’s Torah and hold of his shitos, who hold of Rav Kook’s Torah and hold of his shitos, yet lubavich does not believe in any of the above-quoted shitos.
    And btw, “day by day” there are more and more people who, lehavdil infinite havodolos, are mechalel Shabbos and are kofrim. Numbers don’t mean anything if the numbers are based on a distorted view of the Torah. Sh”Tz had thousands and thousands of followers in an era where there were no electronic communicaions, but he was wrong and extremely dangerous.
    To prove a shito as acceptable you have to prove that it is based on the Torah and be able to refute any objections to it based on the Torah.

    “Can I ask you the question, how do you blame the problem of the litvish and chassidish have on the lack of tzius and daven after the zman, unfiltered internet??? Would you blame it on the Torah they learn all day???Just because the yeddin do aveiros, that is a rayeh that the Torah is wrong C’s”v? Would you say such?”
    I’m not clear what you mean in that first sentence, but to address what I think you are saying later, no I wouldn’t blame it on the Torah they learn. But I would blame it on a movement, and the leader/s of a movement, who ignored breaches in the standards of old, and concentrated on other things. Just as, I believe, you would blame a lack of erlichkeit on a fictional group of people who concentrate on not eating chodosh but don’t care about making a chilul Hashem with shoddy business practices. (I am seriously not alluding to anyone here. I was just trying to come up with an example which I assume you would agree with.)

    “And I just find it funny, when there is advertisement of kupas hoeir etc. That say that this godol or Rebbe will be davaning for only 150 names Al tenai that give a x amount of money. I don’t know if it’s the Rebbe or the gabboim, but it’s quite funny.”
    I am not a fan of that either, but it seems obvious to me that they are doing it to help people in need. So it’s a lot like giving tzedoko at menas sheyichyeh bni. If the ends are worthy, and the means aren’t actually wrong, it’s ok. Do you remember that lubavich had a millionaire’s club whom the rebbe would address separately? Each person there had to commit to give a million dollars over a certain time frame. They were treated differently than the average chossid by your rebbe, but he obviously saw that it was necessary to raise the money for whatever purpose he used it for, and that justified the means.

    “why does this pamphlet [Sichat Hashavua] bother you more than any other pamphlets and advertisements put on tables in shul”
    It doesn’t. But it is just another example of how we are force-fed lubavich at every turn. If it was just Sichat Hashavua without all the other propaganda I wouldn’t care at all. Actually, there is one thing I don’t like about it, and that’s the way there’s a picture of your rebbe on each issue. None of the other pamphlets have pictures of their “gadol” on them. Why do you need this so much?

    “I never heard a single Lubavitcher saying that [Shach yemach shmoi], I don’t where your hearing this from.”
    I have heard it so many times that I have to conclude that you are not getting out enough in your own circles.

    “and they are mechanech kids that way too, kids who don’t even know who Rav Shach was.”
    Where do you even get such info from?”
    From lubavicher kids. I have told you before that I have lubavicher family. I also have lubavicher neighbors, and lubavicher acquaintances.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1663145
    RSo
    Participant

    CS wrote to Chossid: “I would advise you to educate yourself on moshiach and Geula especially as you consider yourself to be a chossid, before making silly statements due to your own ignorance”

    That sounds so much like what Chossid wrote to me!

    It would be helpful if you guys came up with a standardized lubavich view so that we could know what exactly we are meant to attack 🙂

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1663099
    RSo
    Participant

    Wow, Chossid, long post, but I read it all and am about to respond. I’m only pointing out how long it is in case I accidentally miss a question of yours that I should answer. If that happens it will only because it’s hard to keep track of everything. So here goes.

    Re not having learnt the sicha about not sleeping in a sukkah: “Then that shows you are not interested in understanding, rather….. Any sincere person when he doesn’t understand a concept he goes and learns the einyen before he comes up with a opinion. Seriously.”
    No. I was very interested, but before I even knew there was a sicha on the topic, when I was first mocked for sleeping in the sukkah (yes, it’s true), I was explained why one shouldn’t. And I have had it explained to me many times by many different lubavichers – some just wanting to justify their not sleeping in the sukkah, and others trying to convince me of the error of my ways – and I have also had it explained to me in this very forum, where it was discussed for a lenthy period of time. I have no need to learn the sicha, as I rely on lubavichers as to what it says.

    ” the Rebbe never tried proving who moshiach is from the rambam, it’s just some meshchistim, and CS, no one else on this group claimed it. And believing the Rebbe is moshiach is not at all kfirah.”
    Maybe your rebbe didn’t try to prove from the Rambam who Mashiach is, but he certainly gave tacit approval to all those who did use the Rambam to “prove” that he was Mashiach. I think we have concluded that you are too young to remember pre-Gimmel Tammuz, but those of us who are old enough and, like myself, often mixed in lubavich circles (I still do, but to a far lesser extent), heard and saw lubavitch propaganda using the Rambam to prove that very point. To blame it on “some” meshichistim (and CS) is actually to blame their views on the rebbe himself, because although there were times when he voiced his disapproval, there were many times when he did not, and that led them to assuming that they were right. For example, what about that chassidishe woman who gave a tambourine with Yechi, or something like it, to the rebbe? Yes, the rebbe told her he would give it to Mashiach when he came, but the rebbe accepted it and didn’t tell her not to be stupid. It’s actions like this that led to Meshichism.
    And to say that we all agree that it’s not kefira, is not so simple. For 2000 years the standard Jewish argument against you-know-who being the messiah is that he is dead. Now we say that that was just a made-up excuse. Furthermore, those who misuse the Rambam and the Gemoro in Sanhedrin to justify their right to claim that the rebbe is Mashiach, are distorting Chazal and a Rishonim. Does that not constitute apikorsus, which is a first cousin of kefira?

    I can see that if I address every point in one post it will be far too long, so I’ll stop this post here and continue in a new post.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1660894
    RSo
    Participant

    SHY, sad how with all the leitzonus you still can’t seriously answer any of our questions. Not just plain, “Why do you do such-and-such?” questions, but , “How can you claim/believe such-and-such and still think that some of your actions make you better than others?”

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1660896
    RSo
    Participant

    Just to clarify my last post. I have said in the past numerous times that if Lubavich stuck to doing their good acts such as their chabad houses in places where they are needed, and, now that you’ve mentioned it, their services to prisoners etc, we would all be saying how fantastic they are.

    But it’s your hashkofos that get us very worried, and just as your actions don’t justify questionable (to say the least) hashkofos, your talking about your actions doesn’t answer the serious concerns that we have.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1660836
    RSo
    Participant

    username: “@shy. You forgot the main thing – Pesach’s coming up, and now that you’re in Lakewood, you can actually eat real food on Pesach, and you don’t even have to cook it from scratch. You can just go to a store and buy it!!”

    Another example of being fed propaganda (although maybe not on Pesach). Many groups won’t eat processed or bought food on Pesach, and it has nothing to do with Lubavich.

    You guys really need to be deprogrammed.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1660837
    RSo
    Participant

    SHY: “Clearly you don’t know me. Even when I was a Lubavitcher, I was always tucked in.”

    Clearly you were never a real lubaicher!

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1660824
    RSo
    Participant

    SHY: “After all, if the Tachlis is the Schar in Gan Eden”
    coffeeaddict: “Who said that?”

    Actually it is brought that that is indeed the tachlis. Schar mitzva mitzvah means that since Hashem wants us to receive schar (miteva Hatov leheitiv) we should be doing mitzvos with the intention of so to speak “enabling Him” to give us schar. Not so that we should enjoy the schar but that He should be “able” to give us schar, which is what He wants to do. See Amud Ha’avodah (R’ Boruch Kossover) 191a d”h Ben Azai. At least that’s where it is in the older edition that I have. Otzar Hachochmah has a newer edition put out by Bobov that has it on page nun hei.

    It was also once shown to me in Sfas Emes – I think tonight is his yahrtzeit – but I don’t remember where. Perhaps someone can find it for me.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1660770
    RSo
    Participant

    It seems that we’er all enjoying SHY’s posts, but it’s still telling that nothing is getting answered in a way that any chareidi non-lubavicher will accept the answer. All the answers are based, in the long run, on that’s what the rebbe said. Fine with me for you to accept that, just don’t expect us to.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1660768
    RSo
    Participant

    SHY: ” And no need to be so makpid anymore on not even having a glass of water outside the Sukkah”

    Sorry again, but that has nothing to do with lubavich. Seems that despite everything you still believe too much of the propaganda that you were force-fed.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1660761
    RSo
    Participant

    SHY: “Yogayta Umatzasa Taamin”

    Sorry, but you’re not there yet. You still have lubavich pronunciation. I believe most of would say yogaato without the y.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1660109
    RSo
    Participant

    So it looks like this thread has finally come to an end.

    I find it telling that when they are forced into a corner, the lubavichers tend to fight back ad hominem and blame it all on jealousy or people just looking for the bad in lubavich. I think I did a pretty good job (humble, aren’t I?) in explaining why rather than us trying to find the bad with them, it’s them who force their views on us and expect us at the very minimum to take it lying down. And once again, no one deigned to comment.

    I wish all participants in this thread the best, and I hope we all come to a better understanding of what Hashem wants from us. I just hope the lubavichers realize that the rest of the world holds that lubavich is a lot further from the truth than they can imagine.

    And if anyone wants to continue to argue the points that we have brought, I’ll happily take the bait!

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1660057
    RSo
    Participant

    Do the lubavichers on this forum finally realize that they have no acceptable responses to our problems with their views? Is that why there is no activity here?

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1659089
    RSo
    Participant

    username, and then Neville quoting him: “So according to Kalei Hapsak”

    It took me until now to figure out what is going on. You mean KLALEI – not KALEI – hapsak, don’t you? If you don’t I still don’t know what you’re talking about

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1658671
    RSo
    Participant

    My last post got me thinking so much that I can’t sleep. My fault for causing it myself.

    Anyhow, after what I wrote in reply to chossid (and it doesn’t seem to have shown up in the thread yet) I was thinking again about what he wrote that we search for things to find wrong with Lubavcih, and how I replied that its actually that their propaganda machine rams it down our throats. A whole lot of other examples that rile me came to mind, so if I can’t sleep I may as well tell you about them and allow chossid, username, CS et al to respond.

    As I’ve said so many times, I have nothing against you being different to others – each group is different in its own way – but why is it that you always have to show how different you are?

    1. Why do I, an obvious non-lubavicher to anyone who just looks at me, have to be told every time I see a lubavicher on 19 Kislev “Leshono toivo bedarkei hachassidus” or whatever the exact lashon is? I don’t believe it is Rosh Hashono, no one outside of lubavich does, so why do I have to be “accosted” with that greeting by people who never even nod their heads to me when they pass me at any other time of the year, and who never say Gut Shabbos or Gut Yom Tov? (I have to mention in passing that I consider this R”H another meaningless lubavich meshigass made up relatively recently, but that’s not the point of what I’m posting now.)

    2. Why does every lubavicher who passes me on Shavuos (again those who just walk right past me any other time of the year) have to make a point of saying to me “Kabbolas Hatorah bepnimiyus”? If it’s not just to show me how different/better they are, then what’s the point? I sometimes wonder whether the rule is to only say it to non-lubavichers, and that in the local chabad shules they just say “Gut Yom Tov” to each other like everyone else.

    3. Why does it so often happen (not all the time, but far too often) that when saying kaddish in an Ashkenaz minyan a lubavicher will insist on saying Veyatzmach etc, and when people get upset about it the lubavicher just laughs it off? I also say Veyatzmach etc in kaddish, but when I’m davening in an Ashkenaz minyan I omit it because of minhag hamokom. I have seen many people who daven Ashkenaz say Veyatzmach etc when davening in our shul or in the local chabad shul, but ask a lubavicher to omit it and you will so often get nowhere.

    4. Why can’t lubavichers accept that in many places, and our shule is just one such place, we finish davening with kaddish after Aleinu, with no further kaddish? Do they absolutely have to make an issue of saying Tehillim and then Kaddish Yasom and Kaddish Derabbonon? And again, if it upsets people, all the better.

    5. Why can’t lubavichers davening elsewhere either do hagbah the way it is done in that place, or at the very least kindly explain that they would rather not do hagbah at all as they do it differently to the minhag hamokom? Is it really important for them to somehow maneuver past the person standing there waiting to do gelilah so that they can davka put the sefer back down on the bimah despite it upsetting the regular mispalelim?

    And you want to know why we SEARCH for things to badmouth lubavich about! Again, the above examples are not the case with every lubavicher, but I am not the only one who has seen these cases happen more than once. And I didn’t even mention the times when people announce Yechi etc loudly after davening in other shuls. That is much less frequent, but it happens.

    Hopefully going to sleep now, but I look forward to some reasoned responses.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1658659
    RSo
    Participant

    Chossid, I read every word of your long and heartfelt post, and I see that you keep falling into the same hole.

    – We have what to offer, by way of chabad chassidus, in terms of understanding and knowing kevayochol Hashem.
    – Our rebbe spent so much time worrying only about others.
    – Thousands of people attest to him being a tzaddik etc.
    – Others just accept anything bad about Lubavich because they are looking for it.

    Chabad chassidus as taught by the earlier rebbes certainly has what to offer to those seeking that line of thought. But, as your compatriot username pointed out recently, others believe that that is not the line of thought that should be sought, Furthermore, many people look at the situation in lubavich today and believe that all of the movement’s faults (SOME examples: lack of tznius, davening past the zman, unfiltered internet) are a direct result of lubavich concentrating on limud hachassidus and their obsession with Mashiach. They therefore conclude that it is a lot safer to keep away from chabad and their chassidus and to decline what it may have to offer.

    Your rebbe spent “nights sitting with people in yechidus”, but how many nights a year was that? It wasn’t every night, and it was rarely if ever during the day. Did you know that there are other rebbes who spent every day and every night worrying about Klal Yisroel helping them individually and as a klal? And they don’t take money for it either. Yes, of course, many take money but in almost all the cases the money is used to help other Yidden. It’s not as if your rebbe didn’t get money from others for his own projects. There were big donors who gave money to lubavich and it was this money that was used by your rebbe at Sunday’s dollars, or to finance Likutei Sichos etc. Btw if you want to quote me some rebbes who do take money for personal use from people, and you think that that is improper, then leave them out of the equation. There are plenty of others who don’t.

    Thousands of people attest to him being a tzaddik etc, but there are many Gedolei Yisroel (including virtually the entire Litvishe world) who think otherwise, and as Torah-true Yidden the view of Gedolei Yisroel carries far more weight than the view of ordinary people, many of whom were not even religious.

    As far as looking for things in lubavich to badmouth, you have it totally wrong. We don’t have to look. It is shoved down our throats by your incessant propaganda machine! Wherever we go we see posters claiming your rebbe is Mashiach and/or how we can call a number and get answers to all our questions via the igros, we see lubavich pamphlets, e.g. Sichat Hashavua, in our shules where we didn’t ask for them. Even this thread was started by CS giving us an unbid explanation of how lubavich is right that we are in a state of Geulah. No one asked her for her views but she felt “compelled” to tell us all about it. Then when we push back and argue that it is a bunch of garbage and point out why we can’t take lubavich seriously we are accused of looking for ways to badmouth lubavich!

    And here’s a quote from your post: “We don’t deny your Roshe yeshivois or rabbeim”
    As you may recall, I am not a Litvak, but I have been disgusted to hear people say “Shach yemach shmoi” on more than one, and more than ten occasions. I have also heard other litvishe gedolim and, yes, even chassidishe rebbes, alive and not, being denigrated as if they were stupid, jealous fools. But no, you don’t deny other people’s roshei yeshivos or rabbeim!
    I’ll grant you maybe you don’t, but there are vast numbers of other lubavichers who do, and they are mechanech kids that way too, kids who don’t even know who Rav Shach was.
    Any non-lubavicher who has not yet given up reading this post may not believe this but I have heard yoiung lubavicher bochurim who think that the Shach on Shulchan Oruch was a bad guy!

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1658613
    RSo
    Participant

    Chossid, no, I have never learned the sichah dealing with not sleeping in the sukkah, but I have had it explained to me numerous times by lubavichers, and they all came up with the same explanation – the same one that has been given here – that being able to fall asleep is considered mitztaer and exempts you from sleeping. As I have said over and over, and so many others on this forum have said the same thing, that is a ridiculous sevoro with no source or precedent other than your rebbe. So since we dispute the entire sevoro, we do not accept that it makes sense merely because your rebbe said it does.

    You wrote in regards to Mashiach (I don’t understand why you mentioned the Ari z”l as he has nothing to do with it): “I think the same should be with you, especially before putting down someone or a community, and calling the names etc. you should learn the subject really well before hand. It’s basics of ahavas Yisrael, ahavas hatorah, ahavas Hashem.
    Btw I could be wrong, maybe you did learn these subjects really well, but it surely doesn’t seem like it”

    I have learnt repeatedly the Rambam that so many lubavichers quote as “proof” that your rebbe was/is Mashiach, and I have listened to it being intentionally mistranslated and misexplained many, many, many times. You go on the attack with me here but you still don’t give an iota of explanation as to how the Rambam’s criteria point anywhere near the lubavicher rebbe. I don’t mind you attacking me. In fact when you attack me and you avoid addressing the issues, as you have done in this post of yours, it just proves to me that you don’t have what to answer. But you’re not alone. No lubavicher does. It’s all boich sevoros built on air and baseless claims made by your rebbe.
    And if you meant have I learned the sichos of the rebbe on the matter, then the answer is no. I haven’t and I don’t intend to, because whatever I have learnt or read in his name is a distortion or plain childish. (Surely you remember my reference earlier to the invented phrase of Beis Mashiach having the gematria of 770.) I’m not about to learn sichos said by someone with a self-serving agenda. (Sorry, but that’s the way I see it, and I’m not alone in this forum.)

    You continued: “And also you keep on saying that no one outside of Lubavitche agrees with such and such.
    First of all many do”

    Now that is clearly a winning statement. Since I don’t know what you are referring to as “such and such” I can’t argue that your statement “many do” is incorrect. You win hands down!
    But just in case let me name a number of points that ABSOLUTELY NO ONE in the chareidi world outside lubavich agrees with:
    1. Your rebbe is Mashiach.
    2. Your rebbe has the criteria cited in the Rambam that are required by Mashiach.
    3. Because the gemoro that says “if he [Mashiach] is from the dead then it is Doniel” – which Rashi explains in two ways:, either, if Mashiach was someone who has already died then it was Doniel, or if Mashiach is to be compared to someone who has died the person to compare him to is Doniel – we can now claim that it is the lubavicher rebbe.
    4. Being able to sleep in the sukkah can be consider mitztaer that exempts you from the sleeping in the sukkah.
    5. There is a concept of Beis Mashiach (I’m not saying he won’t have a house, but the term is a very recent invention of your rebbe) and that its gematria is meaningful.
    6. And (of course, you wouldn’t expect me to omit this one) the story with the sundial is true even though it makes no sense whatsoever.
    Note: Aside from no. 6, I have heard every single one of the above being claimed repeatedly by too many lubavicher chassidim for anyone to tell me that these claims are not believed by more than a handful of people.

    “second it doesn’t make a difference if they agree or not. Every community, every kries has their rabbonim and rebbis that they follow, and no one has a problem with it”

    Have you been paying attention? How many times have I stated and repeated that I have nothing against different minhogim and hashkofos? What irks me and many others is the claim that lubavich minhogim and hashkofos are at the pinnacle of the Torah world, when so many of the justifications given for them are meaningless and at times outright lies.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1658592
    RSo
    Participant

    chosid: “But you never know I might change my mind soon.”

    Hoping you do!

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1658552
    RSo
    Participant

    It seems to me that CS is just giving up because she realizes that we don’t accept her answers because they are more or less without a real Torah basis.

    Her prerogative, of course.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1658091
    RSo
    Participant

    What happened to the replies and explanations that CS promised us?

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1658090
    RSo
    Participant

    DY quoting my reply to username: “If it were a mitzvah to sleep during Sukkos, then you could say that sleeping outside the sukkah to enhance the mitzvah of sleeping is similar to clapping on Shabbos to enhance the Shabbos. But the mitzvah is sleeping IN the sukkah, and sleeping OUT of the sukkah can’t enhance that.”

    DY in response to that: “The mitzvah of eating in the sukkah is the same mitzvah as sleeping in the sukkah. תשבו. So your tayna isn’t a good one.”

    From your wording you seem to be disagreeing with my “tayna”, yet in the end it doesn’t seem so. Were you perhaps a little unclear in replying to a quote, or did I just get it wrong?

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1658087
    RSo
    Participant

    username: “And for the record, I did answer the sundial story previously.”

    You indeed addressed it, but you didn’t say anything that made the story make any sense.

    in reply to: The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us! #1658086
    RSo
    Participant

    username, you tried to resolve the issue I brought up from Sefer Chassidim by quoting the Chofetz Chaim and others.

    Thanks for finally addressing the issue, but you missed the point. Sefer Chassidim is not talking about people PREDICTING that Mashiach is close based on various signs. He is talking about someone who PROPHESIES about Mashiach – he was a Rishon and he chose his words carefully – and, unlike the Chofetz Chaim, the lubavicher rebbe referred to it as prophesy.

    So the quote you have from Chernobyl is also not relevant because it is not dealing with prophesy.

    But again, thanks for finally addressing the issue. Seriously.

    Btw, I knew of that quote of Chernobyl and Slonim, and I even mentioned it to a lubavicher many years ago in an attempt to explain your rebbe’s statements about Mashiach, but the person I was explaining it to rejected it out of hand: “The Rebbe said he is coming NOW, and that means he is!”

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