Forum Replies Created
“professor Menachem Friedman of bar ilan in a published a study on chabad history, says the student records of the Rebbe as a student in Berlin, and in Paris state he never graduated and dropped many courses”
If you actually want to know what went on in Paris and Berlin, look it up in The Early Years, by R Boruch Oberlander (a shliach and respected dayan and posek in Hungary) and others.
Professor Friedman and his buddy Samuel Heilman have long discredited themselves as unbiased objective researchers with their blatant anti religious opinions. This isn’t the first book they’ve written, and they hate all frume Yidden, not just Lubavitchers. If you would like to see a rebuttal of their book, Rabbi Chaim Rappaport of London wrote one.
“Until then, we can just have a meayn. Hope your mivtzoim went well:)”
For the same price, the Rebbe says that the Neviim are Moshiach, because he says it’s also a meayn. (Two or three lines before).
“sense of shock that you wouldn’t know something I thought was famous, or that a chossid could express himself in such a manner. ”
When did I express myself in a manner unbecoming for a Chossid? Other than perhaps calling someone here a fine specimen of a misnaged, and for that, I do apologise.
“We shouldn’t shy away from learning any sicha or any letter or try to twist it into what we think would make sense.”
Indeed. I can’t agree more. Please stop twisting the Rebbes holy words.
“Either way it’s actually a sign of high regard,”
Thank you. I hold you in high regard too, and your level of learning is Lshem Ulesiferes for Lubavitch.
I respect your opinion, even though I vehemently disagree with it, and I do think that you (and other Lubavitchers on this forum) should think long and hard about the potential damage you can be doing to our reputation, and the Rebbes koved. I have no hard feelings to you, as I know very well where this comes from, but (even leshitoseich) there’s a time and a place for everything. A gute Voch, and we should be zoche to have achdus in Klal Yisroel, mutual respect for one another, regardless of his or her personal opinions.
“It is stated in Rambam somewhere – I’m not sure exactly where, but you could ask anyone – that it is the obligation of every Jew to fervently believe that their teacher is Moshiach. ”
Please, please stop it. You are making all of Lubavitch look crazy because of your silly narishkaiten. Anyone well versed in Rambam (and as a Lubavitcher you most definitely should be, unless you’re a woman) knows that such a Rambam doesn’t exist. It simply doesn’t. I’ve never even heard anyone claim it does. Where you get your info is beyond me.
Note to all Lubavitcher Chassidim following these threads:
Stop talking nonsense. Stop being mevaze the Rebbes name. If you don’t have anything to say about Lubavitch that portrays us in a positive light, then don’t say anything at all. It never ceases to amaze me how a Lubavitcher will come on this forum and spew sheer and utter nonsensical ideas about Lubavitch and about the Rebbe.
Your statements don’t do much good either.November 24, 2017 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm in reply to: Appalling How A Chabad Site Covers Tehillim Request For Rav Shteinman #1411062
In Chabad we learn the same Torah as you. We learn Gemara too. I don’t know who told you that we “only learn Tanya”
Secondly, please tell me, can I learn Chumash and Tanya without saying Birkas HaTorah???
When someone posts anonymously on Internet forums, there’s no hechrech to believe them. That said, if he is indeed telling the truth,
1. Get out of there ASAP.
2. I wholeheartedly apologise to him for doubting him.
Also, if the Rebbe really wanted to tell me that he’s Moshiach, why would he write that it’s a “meayn” of Toroso Shel Moshiach? He would have said that it’s Toroso Shel Moshiach.
“Btw I found the story about Reb Boruch Ber and it fits in with all the other stuff. Told by a lubavitcher on a lubavitcher website”
It’s actually told on video by (As far as I know) a non Lubavitcher, in the name of his Rebbi, Rav Shaya Shimanowitz z”l. I quote:
“Our teacher, Reb Shaya Shimonowitz, who was one of the real giants left over from the old Mir Yeshivah in Europe,”
He sure doesn’t sound like a Lubavitcher too me, rather he sounds like a true ehlicher Yid who has no axe to grind on other Yidden, Yireim Ushleimim. I reiterate: Google “Reb Boruch Ber Chabad” and the first result should be titled “The Rebbe goes to Vilna”. If you won’t believe the testimony of a well respected Rabbi in Detroit that he heard from his Rebbi, who will you believe about anything?
Or is this all part of the vast Elders of Lubavitch conspiracy foundation?
Ps, I’m sure that you can contact Rabbi Yosef Krupnik who said this story and verify it with him, unless of course Chabad paid him to make up a story to suit it’s purposes.
I looked it up now just before I leave on Mivtzoim, and as I thought I doesn’t say that Moshiach wrote Likkutei Sichos. It says that learning the Torah of the Nossi Hador (his maamarim and Sichos) will help bring Moshiach. (Among many other parts of Torah listed there. Do you really think that so many Lubavitchers would ignore the words of the Rebbe or don’t know any Sichos?
Rather, we prefer not to take them out of context.November 24, 2017 10:09 am at 10:09 am in reply to: Appalling How A Chabad Site Covers Tehillim Request For Rav Shteinman #1410906
“One risks one’s life because of fealty to G-d – not to do the will of the Rebbe.”
So if you had a Gadol who you very much respect, and you believe that what he tells you is what Hashem wants (and if he’s not telling you what Hashem wants, find another Gadol)
and tells you to do something – if you believe it’s Ratzon Hashem, why would you not do it? And depending on what it is, in a very extreme case, would you not be able to fathom giving your life up for your ideals?
I don’t agree with Peleg protestors, but perhaps you can learn from them here (if it’s lishmah).
“I asked for a case where this did not involve a public relations coup, as was the case with the son of an Israeli rebbe.”
Very well. There’s a very well known and very large family or Lubavitchers, I won’t name them here, but anyone intimately familiar with Chabad will know whom I referring to. They’re spread out over Canada and American, and have never changed their Levush at all, at the Rebbes request. (Incidentally, their father/ grandfather wrote Rav Moshe Feinsteins Rabbeinu Tams tefilin.)
Additionally, in the late 70’s and early 80’s there was a group of Satmer Chassidim who became Lubavitch. (Together with their Rosh Yeshiva) they too didn’t change their Levush.
Now, you need to differentiate between Minhag and Halachic Shita. Levush is (at least in Chabad) considered a Minhag, and changing it is discouraged. Tefilin on the other hand, and how they’re wrapped and their size is Halachic Shita. So if someone chooses to become a Chabad Chossid, he would want to keep the Piskei Dinim of our Poskim, namely the Shulchan Aruch Harav and the Tzemach Tzedek, (as well as Halachic rulings of the other Rebbeim).
I don’t see why a sefardi Lubavitcher wouldn’t eat rice on Pesach as it’s an Ashkenazi / Sefardi thing, not specific to Chabad. I’d assume that those who don’t would like to be like everyone else in their community, and I don’t see why you’d have an issue with that.
Thank you for allowing this discussion to go on, and thank you for keeping me in check.
Hi there, and thanks for your vote of confidence. Now that you consider me a somewhat balanced Lubavitcher, I’d like to ask you some questions:
“accept that many points being presented go against Torah as we know it, and we have an obligation to say so. ”
I’m quite curious to know which of my beliefs go against the Torah, as I do learn the same Torah as you.
“but not one of them has trouble with others being in their own derech. ”
I have no problem with all Yidden being on their own legitimate Derochim and following their respective Rebbeim or Gedolim. I can confidently say that I speak for most Lubavitchers here, and ChabadShlucha as well.
“you can expect no less from us.”
I don’t. Please keep following your Gadol, and defending your Derech. I’ll do the same.
“And lastly, I have to say that all that I have heard in these explainations have done more damage to my view of lubavitch’s authenticity than any yellow flag waving nutcase who lives on my block.”
It’s quite unfortunate that you have this perception of us, based largely on one womans posts. You have to understand that by nature, women are more emotionally/ spiritually inclined, and often don’t explain themselves the same way men do. I don’t mean to be chauvenistic here, I have much respect for ChabadShlucha who is a very learned woman and kept her cool for a very long time when I definitely wouldn’t have. I do think that she didn’t need to say everything she did, and I also think that she’s quite a rational woman and may have come across as having views that she probably doesn’t. She never insinuated that she thinks everyone must be Lubavitcher Chassidim, and I’m sure she’ll confirm so explicitly.
Thanks for your respectfulness Syag, and I truly hope that you’ll take my word for it on what we believe. I, and all Lubavitchers aren’t shy or embarrassed about our beliefs, and I would never mislead people about them.
“In my line of work I travel often and i have made use of Chabad houses on four continents: North America, South America, Europe and Asia.”
If you think so badly of them and their motives, why would you use them when it’s convenient? I would never go to a conservative temple under any circumstances.
“among yidden who don’t know the difference between a Rabbi who knows halochoh and one who doesn’t. ”
Most Chabad Shluchim aren’t Poskim and don’t claim to be. Although every single one has Semicha Lerabbonus (Yoreh Yoreh). I’m sure you can find a shliach here and there who has made a mistake in Halacha, but to paint 5000 people with the same brush of Am Haratzus? Additionally, most people who frequent Chabad Houses aren’t looking for a competent Rav or Posek to ask their Shaylos too. They’re looking too learn about Yiddishkait, to daven on Shabbos, to hear Shofar on Rosh Hashonah. I hope when you use our Shluchim all over the world you tell them exactly what you think of them, you don’t eat their food since it’s probably not kosher according to you (after all they don’t know Halacha) and you leave them with a nice sized donation for making use of their services even though they weren’t sent to a remote corner of the world to make life comfortable for frum people.
edited – keep your tone down…just as you asked of others
““Look! He is the son of the ploni rebbe and he became a lubavitcher!” ”
Let’s look at the facts, why resort to conspiracy theories? I think I know why, and this applies to other commentators here as well.
You have a preconceived narrative of exactly what Lubavitch thinks and is about, it might even be based on “something I heard in 770″, no matter.
As soon as you narrative comes crashing down like a pile of bricks in the face of hard evidence to the contrary, then all the conspiracy theories come pouring out, like vomiting with a finger down your throat.
When I posted a Ksav Yad where the Rebbe strongly protests the goings on in 770 by some Chassidim, someone screamed out ” It’s a cover up! They just want to look good!”
When I tell you the Rebbes opinion about changing Minhagim, an even deeper conspiracy forms, “He said it so people will see and point and say, look a Lubavitcher with white socks! And he’s the son of a Rebbe!”
Do you really believe in the Elders of Lubavitch conspiracy foundation?November 24, 2017 12:30 am at 12:30 am in reply to: Appalling How A Chabad Site Covers Tehillim Request For Rav Shteinman #1410810
For the benefit of the rabbim, please tell us where you studied Christian theology, and where you obtained your deep insight into Chabad Chassidus?
You probably wouldn’t know a Christian if you he came down your chimney laden with gifts…
“but trying to get people to abandon their minhagim and adopt ways that can be considered assur”
You seem to be quite an intelligent person and a knowledgeable one too, so surely then you would have heard of the many Lubavitchers who came from other kraizen who were instructed by the Rebbe not to change their minhagim?
And the countless letters of the Rebbe to people telling them to keep to their original mesora?November 23, 2017 11:52 pm at 11:52 pm in reply to: Appalling How A Chabad Site Covers Tehillim Request For Rav Shteinman #1410799
“It was founded with very different fundamental hashkovos than what was the mesorah before that time – views dangerously approaching Christian views.”
No one pays attention to someone who doesn’t know the meaning of the word “Hashkafa”, as seen by the way you spelled “Hashkovos” which would mean lyings down, or perhaps the sefardi tefilah for people who’ve passed away, the “Hashkava” prayer.
“I am a non chabad bochur who goes to a chabad yeshiva.”
Let’s say that your account is true, ( I do find it hard to believe, because there are very few non Chabad kids in Chabad Yeshivas.) why would your parents have sent you to the wildest most off the wall “Yeshivas” in North America? There exist plenty of fine Chabad Yeshivas here, to name a few, Chicago, New Haven, Los Angeles, Morristown, Baltimore…
The list goes on.
Of the kind of Yeshivas you speak about there are only two on this entire continent, Queens and Cincinnati, and both are quite small. I consider those people to be absolutely crazy and aan embarrassment to the Rebbe, the Frierdiker Rebbe, all the way up to the Baal Shem Tov. If you so want to be in a Chance ad Yeshiva ( I honestly don’t know why a nice Litvishe boy would) then do yourself a favor and head off the any of the Yeshivos I listed above.
“Fascinating point because the Rebbe says straight out that Mordechai was the Moshe of his generation. Wow lots of things to research here…”
See what the Rebbe says in Likkutei Sichos Chelek 35, Vayigash, Sicha 3. Page 206. It will interest you, and explain alot of what I’ve been saying. Primarily footnote 6.
“the most crazy shlichus positions in rural India etc. Yeah it’s those crazy Meshichists. ”
I’m sure you realize that these people aren’t Shluchim, they’re private people doing their own thing. They do not operate under Merkos L’inyonei Chinuch.
“But good to know an exact source, thanks!”
Likkutei Torah, Matos 82 first column. It’s quite similar to what’s explained in Tanya.
“There are non Chabad chassidus sefarim but as it is not written in Chabad fashion, you would need to learn Chabad chassidus to understand that too. ”
Is that a typo? If they’re not written in Chabad fashion, why would you need to learn Chabad Chassidus to understand it?
Maybe you mean that one enhances the understanding of the other. The Rebbe certainly quoted the Kedushas Levi and the Noam Elimelech. I’ve heard from people who learn both, that you can gain alot more depth in say a Kedushas Levi with the background of Chabad Chassidus.
“So, the short and sweet of it, a Brisker, a Gerrer and virtually every other frum Yid would be wise to become a Lubavitcher.”
Well, I personally wouldn’t have written this, I don’t see what you gain by it. However now that it was written, do you really find it so surprising that a particular group feels that they are special and unique? I’m sure a Belzer Chossid feels that Belz is the most special Chassidus, and a Vizhnitzer will tell you that his is the greatest.
If I didn’t think my Chassidus was so special, even more than all the others, then why would I be a Lubavitcher? (Or Belzer or whatever).
In the Oilom Hayeshivos, if I learned in Mir, it’s probably because I felt it had the most to offer, or it’s Roshei Yeshiva were the most special.
“I watched a video of his descendent testifying to the above. That the Gra saw the Alter Rebbe through the keyhole of his door in Vilna, and realized there was so much kedusha there that he would have become a chossid”
Interesting you bring that up. In Lubavitch our version is that the Talmidim of the GR”a didn’t let the Alter Rebbe in, however the descendants of the Gra, (specifically Rav Yoshe Beer Soleveitchik) had a different version, the one you mentioned. Another difference in the versions is who the Alter Rebbe went with. In our version, he went with R Mendel of Vitebsk, in Rav Soleveitchik’s version, he went with the Berditchever. I can’t post links here, so Google “alter Rebbe vilan gaon” should be the second result where you can watch Rav Leibel Schapiro (Rosh Yeshiva and Rob of Chabad in Miami) say it over the way he heard it from Rav Soleveitchik.
Amazing Hashgocho Protis, as we speak, I’m learning the same maamar I referenced before, veavraham zakein 5738, and the Rebbe brings the pasuk אין צדיק בארץ אשר יעשה טוב ולא יחטא and the Rebbe says Cheit milashon chisaron. Look it up, end of ois daled.
“he said the author of likutei sichos”
Really? Not only have I never seen this, I’ve never even heard of it. Please share your source.
“and Israeli shluchim will tend to say it within their communities as well…”
As an alumnus of Kiryat Gat (top Chabad yeshivah in EY)
and someone who spent much time with local Israeli shluchim, I’d say that’s quite inaccurate. Majority of actual official Shluchim (under Tzach/merkos) do not say Yechi. I know it’s convenient to blame Israelis for our problems, but alot of this began right in Crown Heights.
““if you look it up you’ll see what I’m saying, even a woman can understand it:)””
No disrespect meant there, I was referring to what you love to say “noshim daatan kallos hayn”.
As for Bosi Legani, look up the reference the Rebbe adds at the end, and you’ll see what I mean.
I love the way you just come and tell me what I really think, when I spell out what I think you just brush it away, and explain what I really think. If we’re going to have an honest respectful discussion, you’ll have to make my word on my personal beliefs. Also, I dare say that you are getting some of your information from a certain anti religious site that has recently been shut down. Vehameivin yovin.
That’s a question deserving of it’s own thread, but I’ll try give a few points in short. I’m sure @ChabadShlucha will answer too.
1. “What does learning “Chasidus” mean and entail?”
Learning Chassidus means studying the works of Chassidus Rebbeim in general, and what I learn specifically as a Chabad Chossid is Chassidus Chabad. It entails beginning with the Yesodos of Chassidus, usually with a Chavrusa or a sefer with biurim until you can fully understand it yourself. On a practical level, I’d recommend learning the first few Prokim of Tanya, and then learning a few Prokim in the second section of Tanya, Shaar Hayichud Vehoemuna. I’d also recommend reading the Hakdamah.
Another basic sefer of Chassidus Chabad is Kuntres Umaayan,
which is often the first sefer Chassidus learned by young Cha ad bochurim, this you may not need a biur, it’s quite self understand and doesn’t introduce many concepts from Kabbala. As an aside, if you are a Slonimer, you may find a part of the sefer which has some writings of the Frierdiker Rebbe and the Slonimer Rebbe a and R Chaim Brisker (if I’m not mistaken) are mentioned there.
2.”What is Chasidus (does it include seforim from non-Chabad Chasidishe Rebbes/talmidei chachamim) and why would non-Chasidim learn it?”
Chassidus has the a similar tafkid to mussar, to refine a person and make him serve Hashem with an emes. (In very short). To do that, Chassidus and mussar employ very different methods. Chassidus defines a persons neshama, and helps you understand who you really are as a Yid. It helps you understand what a Yids relationship to Hashem is.
A good explanation can be found in Kuntres Inyonoh Shel Toras HaChassidus, also available in English as “On the Essence of Chassidus”.
Much of what Chassidishe Rebbeim wrote is Chassidus (not everything, of course Shulchan Aruch Harav for example isn’t Chassidus) Kedushas Levi from the Berditchever, Noam Elimelech from the Rebbe Reb Elimelech of Lizhensk, Nesivas Sholom from the Slonimer, Sfas Emes from the Gerrer Rebbe, just to name a few. All these are Chassidus, albeit a different style than Chassidus Chabad. (It’s been often said that Sfas Emes is similar to Likkutei Torah from the Baal HaTanya)
3. “How’s it different than non-Chasidish seforim?”
You’ll have to see for yourself:) I think I’ve explained a little above.
4. “As a practical matter, is it widely learnt by non-Chasidim?”
Definitely. I personally know many Litvaks and Chassidim who learn Chabad Chassidus. I know a Toldos Ahroner dayan you delves into Chabad Chassidus. I’m sure wherever you live you can find a group of serious Yungerlait learning Chassidus.
I hope this helps.
“It would make more halachic sense to permit clapping for applause, but not for music. However, you are correct; Chabad is not alone in that one. My point was more that Chabad encourages people to deviate from their minhagei avos even where serious issurim are involved.
We are supposed to be able to fit 2 batim in the space between the hairline and baby-bump. This is objectively impossible with Chabad tefillin.”
Do you fancy yourself such a great posek of the stature of the Baal HaTanya veShulchan Aruch Harav, that you will denounce what he says as “serious issurim” and “bordeline posul”??
If you were to reference an actual Acharon with such an opinion, fine. But for you, Johnny come lately, to have such disrespect for a undisputed Godol B’yisrael as the Bal HaTanya, someone revered by all Poskim (you can see for yourself what the Mishna Berura says about him) is totally and utterly disgraceful! You should go to his Kever in Haditch with a minyan and beg for mechila.
For all the talk you have about Lubavitchers not respecting other Gedolim, I’ve never in my life heard someone talk like this about the Psokim of (for example) the Mishna Berura or Aruch HaShulchan. You give a bad name to the majority of Litvaks who truly don’t have an issue with Chabad.
I’m not going to respond to such disrespect.
“So explain to me because I may be wrong, how is that not feeling superior to others? Was all the meat treif for thousands of years until chabad came along with the wisdom of kosher shechting?”
I honestly don’t know where you get your information. There are many people who davka like to use their own hashgachos, especially for meat. That said, I will eat any Glatt Kosher Mehadrin shechita, provided that the Shochtim are Yarei Shomayim. I’m not alone in this, I know many many such Lubavitchers.
In case they won’t post a link here, the story of R Boruch Ber and the Rebbe was told by R Yosef Krupnik, of Detroit (not a Lubavitcher) if the link doesn’t go up, you can simply Google “Reb Boruch Ber Chabad” and it should be the first result.
“I have asked and there is no source for the semicho story – I believe not even from the rebbe himself.”
You’re raising an interesting topic. There’s a new book called The Early Years, where this is discussed. If I recall correctly, there’s no hard proof or documentation that the Rebbe received semicha from Rogatchover, but the correspondence definitely did happen, and you can see the letters from both of them in this book. It’s probably available elsewhere as well.
“If a Brisker or a Gerrer changed to become a Lubavitcher, would that probably enable them to become a better Yid or earn Olam Haboa?”
We don’t believe a Brisker or Gerrer or whatever else needs to become a Lubavitcher. There’s no need. Everyone has their own way and their own Rebbeim.
That said, we do want others to learn Chabad Chassidus, but we’re not demanding it and pushing it down anyone’s throat.
I’m quite sure that there’s no “Olam Haba Frequent Flyer Club” where Lubavitchers are Platinum members and everyone else is Bronze. I do know that Ahavas Yisrael on both sides is imperative.
“Also some question if that letter existed as a coverup”
And vaccines cause autism, Obama was born in Kenya,
Bush/Mossad did 9/11, and man didn’t land on the moon.
It’s all one giant cover-up. Once it was the mythical Elders of Zion, today it’s the Elders of Chabad.
The bracket after Shelo needs to be after Lameivin.
Earlier, I referenced a Ksav Yad of the Rebbe. I’d love to upload it, but I don’t think it’s possible. If you look around, you can find it just like I did. I’ll write the exact words the Rebbe wrote, with no changes or explanations.
*אין כל* חיוב *כלל* לחפש מיהו משיח וכו’ אבל *מ”ע מה”ת:* [מצות עשה מן התורה] אהבת *כאו”א* [כל אחד ואחד] מישראל ושלילת המחלוקת וכו’ *בתכלית* – ופשיטא שלא לעשות במזיד הפכו *וד”ל* [ודי למבין].
The parentheses are the Roshei Teivos opened.
An asterisk denotes that the Rebbe underlined that word, sometimes with two lines. The first two words “Ein Kol” are underlined too, it seems that my copy paste and asteriks aren’t coming out perfectly. I don’t know how to write in bold here:)
1. Clapping on Shabbos: According to many Chassidim, not just Chabad, it’s muttar if it’s to a song. Ie, not for clapping after a speech.
2. Tefilin size: I have never heard anyone say it’s borderline passul. These measurements come straight out of Shulchan Aruch Harav. And before you disparage him, look what the Mishna Berura says about him.
3. Benetictine: Follow the guidelines of your local Kashrus agency or talk to your Room.
4. Shas vs Chassidus:
Funny one. On Yud Test Kislev every year (which we call the RH of Chassidus) we make a Chalukas HaShas, and every Shul finishes Shas within the year. Additionally, many Lubavitchers learn Daf Yomi.
“or rather your husband took over for you completely.”
I take offense on ChabadShluchas behalf. That’s quite an assumption to make. I don’t know how many Chabad women you know well, but from what I’ve seen, many of them are quite knowledgeable in Torah. Chabad women study Chumash with meforshim, some Gemara, Rambam, and Chassidus.
“Do you think he would wave you on?”
I can assure you the Rebbe would be very upset by what goes on today in 770. To quote R Yoel Kahan (a leading Rav in Chabad today, miziknei hachassidim)
“What the Meshichistim do to the Rebbe, even the communists didn’t do”.
Many Chassidim are appalled at what goes on there, some won’t even daven in the downstairs shul. This is why there’s a legal fight over 770, so mishogoyim can be thrown out once and for all.
There’s an image that I’d like upload, is it possible?
“The other was that on the one hand the neshama is a nivra, but we learn that at it’s core, it’s one with Hashem. I wanted to understand how we experience that…”
Interesting question, bhashgacha protis, last night I was learning a maamar which speaks about this, (ואברהם זקן, מלוקט א’)
“Impress like I said, you may be living in denial? I’m actually quite curious”
This is why I gave my credentials as a bonafide Lubavitcher:)
It’s a good question, and will take a long time to answer, since most of the nuances of it aren’t of relevance to many readers here, and it’ll take a long time to write up, I’ll give you a few references to look up.
1. Alot of what I’m saying comes from R Berel Levin (guy who put together many of the Rebbes sforim, Head Librarian of the Rebbes library, wrote the footnotes to Alter Rebbes S”A )
which he wrote it “Kovetz Moshiach Ugeula”, it’s quite hard to find today, maybe your husband has seen it.
2. In the Bosi Legani 5711, the Rebbe concludes with “Vehu Yigoleinu” (the frierdiker Rebbe), then on the bottom, the Rebbe adds a footnote referencing Bamidbar Rabba, look it up. Also when the Rebbe was asked how this could be, he explained on Yud Gimmel Shvat.
3. Please see Likutei Sichos Lamed Hey, page 206 (vayigash Gimmel) footnote 6, where the Rebbe explains why Dovid Hamelech can’t be Moshiach, even though it says so “vedovid avdi nosi lohem leolom”, though the Gemara says that Moshiach could be min hameisim.
I’m sorry I didn’t take the time to spell out everything, but “Yagayta umatzasa taamin” if you look it up you’ll see what I’m saying, even a woman can understand it:)
Thirdly, I definitely wish and hope the Rebbe will be Moshiach, is it rational? Not at all. Is it probable? No. Could it happen?
The Aibershter can do anything. But the focus needs to be on bringing Moshiach, regardless of who he will or will not be.
“there is a joke within Lubavitch that Moshiach must be a Litvak, because otherwise not all of klal Yisrael will accept him, whereas lubavitchers will be happy to accept whoever it is…”
This was actually said by the Alter Rebbe, as such it has more bearing than a simple joke.
I referenced earlier a Ksav Yad of the Rebbe. I’d love to upload it, but I don’t know if that’s possible. I’m sure you can find it just like I did. I’ll include the Rebbes exact words here, with no explanations or translations.
*אין כל* חיוב *כלל* לחפש מיהו משיח וכו’ אבל *מ”ע מה”ת:* [מצות עשה מן התורה] אהבת *כאו”א* [כל אחד ואחד] מישראל ושלילת המחלוקת וכו’ *בתכלית* – ופשיטא שלא לעשות במזיד הפכו *וד”ל* [ודי למבין].
An asterisk indicates the Rebbe underlined the word, some were underlined twice.
“I’m puzzled by your use of the word “histalkus”. Why does it seem to me that even non meshichist Lubavichers can’t seem to directly acknowledge that the Rebbe passed away?”
I will be the first do acknowledge directly that the Rebbe zy”a did indeed pass away on the third day of Tammuz, 5754 (1994) I’m even named after the Rebbe. I frequent his Tziyun often, in fact I was just there on Sunday. I use the word Histalkus because that’s a respectful loshen, just like we use by the Rashbi. I have no problem saying petira.
“I attended many Chabad camps, and we had many different themes, not all based on Moshiach.
When was this? It wasn’t always this way.”
I’ll put it this way, I’m young enough to be born after the Rebbes histalkus.
“I disagree with the way the chinuch today is to do mitzvos for the Rebbe and for Moshiach. You’re supposed to do mitzvos for Hashem.”
In which Chabad schools or Yeshivas were you educated?
Mitzvos are רצונו יתברך. I haven’t heard otherwise.
“have I indicated that I don’t believe in Moshiach or think it shouldn’t be talked about, hoped for, prayed for?”
When we do exactly that you called it an obsession. I refer you to the Chofetz Chaims sefer ציפית לישועה where he beseeches people to learn the dinim of Korbonos, because Moshiach is coming any day.
Why when we do concrete peulos to be mezarez the Geula do you deride them? Do you not think it’s high time for Moshiach to come and we must do our part in readying the world with Torah and Mitzvahs, and Teshuva to hasten it?
Do you disagree with the Gemara in Sanhdrin צז
“כלו כל הקיצין ואין הדבר תלוי אלא בתשובה”.?
Do you disagree with the Rambam (Hilchos Teshuva ז)
“אין ישראל נגאלין אלא בתשובה, וכבר הבטיחה תורה שסוף ישראל לעשות תשובה בסוף גלותן, ומיד הן נגאלין”.?
“Precisely. All those wonderful things you do should be for the sake of the mitzvah, not to hasten moshiach. Hopefully that will occur too.”
They are done to fulfill our obligation to care for another You, which hastens Moshiachs coming. Do you not believe that an increase in Torah and Mitzvahs is mezarez the Geula?
“The Rambam is referring to belief in Moshiach, not specifically belief that the Rebbe is moshiach.”
Have you understood from my posts that I believe the Rebbe is Moshiach? I think I’ve been pretty clear that it’s not the case.
My point of bringing the Rambam was to stress how important believing and and anticipating Moshiachs coming is, and how it’s not a Lubavitcher novelty.
Also, I’m quite sure the Chofetz Chaim spoke and wrote alot about Moshiach.
A fascinating interview with Mr David Berger ( macher in Yeshiva University, and misnaged par excellence) was done by R Dovid Lichtenstein of Halachic Headlines, about this very topic. I highly recommend listening to it if you want to hear what a rational Litvak (Lichtenstein, not Berger) has to say about this issue.
@putThegunDown, shabbsai Tzvi always comes in the same way Yoshke comes in. It’s the irrational fear of Lubavitchers that causes it.
Your are truly a fine specimen of a misnaged. I honestly thought they were extinct, but it lives on within you.
“the Chabad girls gave her a puzzled look and asked, “What does that have to do with Moshiach?” ”
That anecdote doesn’t ring true. I attended many Chabad camps, and we had many different themes, not all based on Moshiach. And even if this did happen, is the innocence of a young girl who thinks that everyone else is like her so so terrible?
“but it’s not to the exclusion of everything else in Yiddishkeit the way it seems to be in Chabad.”
In what way does our belief (or as you so derisively call it “obsession”) in Moshiach exclude any part of Yiddishkait?
On the contrary, we strengthen Yiddishkait all over the world, thereby hastening the coming of Moshiach.
How many Yidden keep Shabbos because of our efforts?
How many put on Tefilin?
How many keep Kashrus?
How many children were born בקדושה?
How many hours of Torah were learned?
How many tayere Yiddishe kinder are learning kometz Alef oh?
To suggest that fervent belief in Moshiach excludes any part of Yiddishkait is patently absurd.
And who helps you keep kosher? How much of the food you eat is supervised my Chabad Shluchim serving in “ek velt”
The OU and OK as well as many others heavily rely on our Shluchim.
“You’re kidding, right? The Rebbe forced all Yidden to follow the Torah? Could have fooled me.”
I didn’t say he did, I clearly used the word argue, ie, for arguments sake. Meaning, that even if the Rebbe did force everyone to keep Torah Umitzvos, that still wouldn’t make him Chezkas Moshiach.
Finally, I’ll conclude with a Rambam:
וכל מי שאינו מאמין בו, או מי שאינו מחכה לביאתו, לא בשאר נביאים בלבד הוא כופר, אלא בתורה ובמשה רבינו.
(Hilchos Melochim Perek 11 Halacha 1)
The Aibershter wants us to serve him. He also wants us to fulfill the ultimate purpose of creation, Yemos Hamoshiach, when He will be revealed to all, and everyone will serve him, and all of Torah will be applicable. I think you should read Rambam Hilchos Melochim for more info. This isn’t a concept unique to Chabad, it’s quite universal.
“This we can agree on sechel hayashar, correct?”
We most definitely can agree on that. In fact there’s a Ksav Yad from the Rebbe to a similar effect. I would upload it if I could. The one of
אין שום ענין לזהות את המשיח…
I’ll see if I can find the full loshon.