Forum Replies Created
“Unless they prescribe to CS’s beliefs and shittos.”
I fail to comprehend why her beliefs are “arguably [is] halachically problematic” .
I challenge you to prove based on a source that you can specify in Shulchan Aruch or Rambam why her beliefs are “Halachically problematic”.
“As an aside, I am shocked by the tone and language in use in this thread in general and by people from all sides and backgrounds. There are a lot of you who are not so interested in having a discussion, but more interested in grinding your axes about various things. There is no point in screaming past each other, other than ultimately wasteful self gratification.”
I couldn’t have said it better myself.
Sorry, unless you’re a woman, in which case we definitely haven’t.
Given your age, we’ve probably crossed paths before.
“as my husband would prefer the whole Yeshiva not gossip about his wife’s posts if I give away my location 😉”
I totally get that, as I am a bochur.
“As for my personal position, that’s the house I grew up in and my private personal opinion also based on several igros I have seen. ”
I have no qualms with your personal opinion, as I’ve explained before.
“I appreciate ur comment, but I’m confused about ur not looking for who is moshiach. The Sdei Chemed says people in EVERY generation are accustomed to look for who moshiach is. “All this is obvious” he says. Why not do the custom of every generation?”
And to that I present you will a Ksav Yad from the Rebbe that you would prefer to ignore:
*אין כל* חיוב *כלל* לחפש מיהו משיח וכו’ אבל *מ”ע מה”ת:* [מצות עשה מן התורה] אהבת *כאו”א* [כל אחד ואחד] מישראל ושלילת המחלוקת וכו’ *בתכלית* – ופשיטא שלא לעשות במזיד הפכו *וד”ל* [ודי למבין].
Your tongue is wagging a thousand miles an hour. Slow down and try make an intelligent argument.November 27, 2017 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm in reply to: ACHDUS! Chabad And Judaism Are One! Let’s Bring Moshiach Together #1413011
I the interest of preserving whatever Ahavas And mutual respect there is, can this thread please be closed?
“We have clearly demonstrated that Chabad’s policy is to overtly try to get people to change their minhagim;”
That would be correct if it’s one’s Minhag not to put on Tefilin, or to eat chazir r”l, or to marry a shiktza, but we have no interest in changing your Minhagim. I don’t know why I’m even responding, your mind seems quite resolved about this based on one reply to a non religious person on Chabad.org which had no Minhag. (Unless not being frum is a Minhag).
“how insulting and naïve. really! you have the chutzpah to call a room full of people not open to listening”
Lower your tone, don’t be so hard on her, it’s only the Coffee Room:)
“I am personally ambivalent over whether the Rebbe must be Moshiach as I definitely see place for both interpretations, but I don’t yet see anyone else who could”
Very well said, and I think that many Lubavitchers would subscribe to that view, it’s quite “moderate” (I hate to use that word, but I want to put it in perspective for others here).
Was this always your view or did it soften throughout this discussion? You don’t have to answer, I understand if you don’t.
(Also, do you still take me seriously even though you now know exactly how old I am? 🙂 )
“and those Kohanim who approached the aron were undoubtedly oveir their issur. ”
You are correct that majority of Poskim were machmir, but who are you to say they were oiver an issue?
The Minchas Elozor says he would be meikil if not for it being hard to say that someone isn’t a tzadik, and that would lead to kohnim going everywhere.
The Chida in Pnei Dovid says that the Minhag is to be meikil.
Bpoel, in Chabad we are machmir like rov Poskim. However that doesn’t give you a right to say that those who weren’t were oiver. Are you greater than the Minchas Elozor or the Chida? Why try and look for aveiros by Yidden? Why not be matzdik and Dan lekaf zchus?
“Finally, the Gemara itself lists only 4 people that lived without any aveiros. But according to the interpretation discussed above, wouldn’t there have to be at least one in every generation?”
That has been answered already, but if you want to study it further, look in Maamarim Melukat Aleph, Veavraham zakein.
“The nasty sly comments, digs and cutting remarks that are being fired, but with a big smile, against misnagdim (as you’ve declared me) ”
Was it me who called you a misnaged?
“How do you explain why 60%-70% of Lubavitchers nevertheless believe the Rebbe is Moshiach?”
Way too many tough questions for one day:)
If I didn’t make it clear earlier, I think it’s something based on emotion and feeling, it’s a hergesh, not something that is dictated by logic and reason. I think that’s what many Lubavitchers who do believe the Rebbe is Moshiach would answer, but I really can’t speak for them.
“It may be foolish to believe so after his passing, but definitely isn’t assur in any way, shape or form.” ”
It may be – as in, even if you do believe it’s foolish, (and you’re free to do so) that doesn’t make it assur.
“and ones like me.”
*And not ones like me.
“Which brings me to the question of – why is it that there does not appear to be a single lubavitcher on here that agrees with your hashkofos?”
Not many Lubavitchers frequent the Coffee Room, and among those who do, unfortunately it seems to be that the people who post are the ones trying to convince you of the legitimacy of their opinion, and ones like me.
“So how do you feel about and explain and personally reconcile with the fact that a large majority of your fellow Lubavitchers believe this very silly belief?”
Firstly, I didn’t say upwards of 70%, I said between 60% to 70%, but anyway, those numbers don’t mean much. They’re just an estimate based on very hard to define beliefs.
Now, my main issue with believing that the Rebbe is Moshiach isn’t due to my thinking “that it’s silly”. I think it’s intellectually dishonest to base that belief on the Rebbes words or writings, (something I gave sources for quite awhile ago here, but didn’t expound on.) That said, as a hergesh pnimi, a real internal belief that’s personal, and not comprised of chanting slogans and waving ridiculous flags, or wearing silly Yarmulkes, I have no problem with it. I don’t think it’s silly, I think it’s an expression of longing for Moshiach and a fervent hope that it will be the Rebbe, whether that makes sense or not. I’m not going to belittle that belief.
I only take issue with the following:
1. People who feel that it’s their mission to convince the entire world of these said beliefs, which as I said is a small segment of Lubavitch in America (very far from the majority).
2. People who believe that the Rebbe is alive Beguf Gashmi, and mock those who visit his Tziyun in Queens.
As I said, I, based on the Rebbes own words (Likkutei Sichos Chelek 35 Vayigash Sicha 3 page 209, footnote 6, I hope all that is accurate, this is off hand) believe that according to the Rebbe, it’s not logical for him to be Moshiach.
“How about u show people what lubavitch is about and treat a fellow Lubavitcher respectfully even tho his only crime has been to disagree with u.”
It’s not about me and you. This is about the kavod of our Rebbe. I believe that you (unintentionally) are causing our Rebbe much agmas nefesh and I will call you out on that. I have respect for you as a fellow Yid and a Lubavitcher, but I have no respect for the part of you that thinks that doing what you’re doing is somehow being moisif Kavod to the Rebbe.
“Sechel; Just curious, if Lubavicher chadorim don’t have limudei chol, where did you get such an excellent vocabulary and writing skills?”
Thanks for the compliment. It’s not unique to me, many Lubavitchers have excellent English language skills, if you really want to know English, it doesn’t have to happen at school. Lots of reading in English will usually have the same effect.
For good or for bad (bad) you’ve become a representative of Lubavitch here. So watch what you say, grow up, and apologise. It’s not respectful to call any Rov by his first name, and certainly not one of the stature of Harav Moshe Feinstein.
” In your rough estimation, a) what percent of Lubavitchers believe the Rebbe is Moshiach and b) what percent believe the Rebbe isn’t Moshiach? Do you agree with Chabadshlucha that an overwhelming majority of Lubavitchers believe the Rebbe is Moshiach?”
That’s a tough question, and I didn’t answer it until now because Chabad Shlucha already did.
I would say that in my experience in Yeshiva, it’s not something that I’ve really heard discussed. No one says “I believe the Rebbe is Moshiach or I don’t believe” most of the debate is usually about saying Yechi (which I’d say majority of American Lubavitchers don’t) or other such slogans, or debate on the effect that Meshichistim have on tarnishing our image.
If I had to estimate how many Lubavitchers believe wholeheartedly that the Rebbe will for sure be Moshiach, I’d say roughly as high (or low as, depending on your perspective) as 60-70% percent. It’s also quite difficult so define “believe that the Rebbe will be Moshiach” ie, how much do you believe it? Bemunah Sheleima or you think or hope that he will be, but it’s kind of inconsequential. Also as I said, people very rarely talk about such a personal belief. (Unless they’re Meshichist).
I hope this answers your question somewhat.
“because it has been geposkined from the top to present a carefully constructed facade of sheker to the rest of the world.”
So you think I’m lying to you when I tell you the Rebbe was strongly against all this? And in fact once told his secretary that he won’t walk inside the shul again until his secretary promised that Yechi wouldn’t be sung again?
Am I lying when I categorically state that the Rebbe never claimed to be Moshiach?
Am I deceiving you when I write that I don’t believe that the Rebbe will be Moshiach?
“it appears that sechel may be right and others may just not “get” us. I’d be happy to be proven wrong though:)”
I’d be very happy to be proven wrong, and I’d love to believe that no matter what ones beliefs are (as long as they’re not contrary to the Ikrei HaDas) other Yidden won’t respect them any less. Unfortunately I’ve been right about this time and time again, it’s quite similar to lehavdil in the goyishe world where we see such discord, and hate for other ideological viewpoints. We as Yidden, who have the concept of Ahavas Yisrael, and Shivim Ponim Latorah, (and machlokes sheinah lshem Shomayim) should be above such pettiness.
“The bochurim shluchim were in OT last year. If you are the same year, although I’d put you at a year older,”
Pretty good guess. I meant which Yeshiva are they Shluchim in?
You have completely misunderstood me. As I clarified earlier, I said Noshim Daatan Kallos only in a joking way, because you yourself had used it before. I even added a smiley face:). And I wrote that you will understand it, even though you are fond saying noshim datan kalos.
“you tried to dismiss my comments because I am a woman, without being misogynistic of course (wry smile.)”
I was trying to explain why you might have come across the way they thought you did, and I stand by what I said, and I do not consider myself misogynistic at all.
I am well aware of the Rebbes yachas to women, and I am someone who I think knows the Rebbes shittos quite well.
with their Bina yeseira are quick to discern what you think of their intellectual capabilities:)”
I do not think women are of inferior intellectual standing in any way, I was speaking about women’s emotions, which I said were stronger.
“discussing some questions that have come up on this thread with the bochurim shluchim who were coming over on Shabbos, ”
I wonder how many of those bochurim shluchim I know:) which Yeshiva were they in? Also, I’ve discussed different parts of Torah with various Shluchos at their Shabbos tables, and I’m no stranger to a woman’s intellectual prowess. I’m quite taken aback by your portrayal of me as some kind of misogynistic guy who doesn’t know what the Rebbe says about women learning Torah.
“I’m assuming you are in shidduchim or will be starting soon. ”
Not a bad guess:) Closer to the latter.
“that truth is scaring non-Lubavitchers from Lubavitch?”
No that is not what I mean. I don’t know how much clearer I can be here, as I’ve said many times, I don’t believe it to be the truth, and to the contrary, it puts people off. And even someone who does consider it the truth should still recognize that there’s a time and a place for everything.
All those bashing Moshiach Chat for not using the title Rav:
He should have called them Rav and it’s disrespectful not to. However it’s not about them, it’s a general attitude that some people have, you will find Lubavitchers calling some of our great Rabbinim by their first names. For example Yoel for R Yoel Kahan, Meilach for R Elimelech Zwiebel A”H and so on and forth.November 26, 2017 9:57 am at 9:57 am in reply to: Appalling How A Chabad Site Covers Tehillim Request For Rav Shteinman #1411471
What do you think that Rav Shteinman Shlita would say if he knew the he’s at the center of a disgusting and disgraceful thread such as this one? Do you think it’s going to bring him a Refueh Sheleima? Rav Shteinman is known to have respect for Chabad, and we in turn, have always had respect for him. (I’ve even learned his Chiddushim in Ayeles HaShachar in a Lubavitcher Yeshiva. (Hey wait.. They don’t learn Torah in Chabad, just Tanya?!) Stop fanning the flames of Pirud Helevovos and machlokes in the name of a Godol B’yisrael who’s lying sick in hospital!!!
“As for sechel hayashars concerns, and the others like him, that we are being merachek people, I disagree.”
I’m sure you mean this with full sincerity, but:
1. It is being and has been meracheik Yidden; just look at some responses on this very thread.
2. It’s not my concern, it’s the Rebbes concern, which he raised many times, and which caused him great agmas nefesh. Don’t argue that that was then, but it’s not applicable anymore, because you can patently observe this right here.
“Seichel Hayashar, Moshiachat and all the others are spouting things that are based on the above fact: the Rebbe is Moshiach. ”
Have you even read anything I wrote here? Or because it doesn’t fit the narrative that you want to sell everyone you’ll put words in my mouth?!
“Why are u anons so unnecessarly rude. Jeez”
You’re anonymous too so speak for yourself. If I could identify myself to just you, I would. And the last word of your sentence is a euphemism for Yoshke, so I don’t think it’s appropriate for a frum Yid to be using. (Source: Merriam Webster’s Dictionary, Google.)
“Why are lubavitchers always so much on the defensive. ”
Hmm, I wonder.
“My challenge, I suppose it could be called, was to find me someone who was told to keep his mesorah when it would not be so obvious that he was choshuv and/or from the outside, for example, to keep winding tefillin the other way, to keep wearing non-lubavitch tallis/tzitzis.”
I explained in a previous post the difference between Minhag and Halachic Shita. The two examples you bring are in the latter category.
“and they were told to keep their levush because it makes it obvious to anyone who sees them that this choshuve family were attracted to Lubavitch from the outside.”
Nonsense. Part of the Lubavitch conspiracy I mentioned earlier, which believes that any praiseworthy thing the Rebbe or any Lubavitcher did is for ulterior motives. Disgusting!
Also, this family do keep many of their other Minhagim too, such as keeping Shabbos for several hours longer, by taking it in early, or bringing out late.
“but your kidding that the fact he is a “respected dayan and posek in Hungary” carries any weight at all. How many shomrei Shabbos are there in Hungary today?”
Wow. I’m flabbergasted! It’s truly amazing the nitpicking that you (and others) will do to find some problem with what a Lubavitcher said. Absolutely insane. Hungary – the place he lives. Respected – by the many frum families there, and globally. (There was an article about him in the Ami not so long ago).
“Mainstream Lubavitch and the official Mosdos condemn and reject which beliefs?”
The belief that the Rebbe zy”a is still alive, and will soon be revealed as Moshiach. (Among many of the other things discussed here).
I believe it was a Minhag of certain Chassidusen. I never said everybody did it. Many Rebbishe families have continued this Minhag among them – (in alphabetical order) the Alter, Friedman, Hager, Halberstam, Heschel, Karelitz, Rokeach, Schapiro, Schneersohn, Soloveitchik, Twerski, Weinberg, and Sonnenfeld families.
This is also brought down in the Aruch HaShulchan, Siman 263, Seif Zayin:
ובנות ישראל נוהגות לברך כל אחת בעצמה אף כשהן אצל אמן, אף שהבעל אינו מברך וסומך על ברכת אשתו, כמ”ש בסעיף ה’, משום דהחיוב הוא רק על המשפחה כמ”ש שם, מכל מקום הבנות מפני שהן נצטוות יותר כמו שנתבאר – מברכת כל אחת ואחת, וטוב שכל אחת תברך בחדר בפני עצמה.
“Plus, the Rebbe has 39 volumes of chiddushim on sugyos Ha’Shas? I have never heard about it.”
Let’s say he did. In all likelihood you probably still wouldn’t have heard of them. But in reality, the Rebbe has 39 volumes of Likkutei Sichos – which discuss all parts of Torah, from pshat in Chumash, to a kashe on Rashi, to sugyos Al HaShas. There’s also several volumes of Hadronim on Shas (which the Rebbe said when he would make a siyum on a masechta) as well as on Rambam. I invite you into your local Lubavitcher shul to see for yourself, who knows perhaps you’ll even enjoy it, and you’ll definitely be mekayem mitzvas Talmud Torah, which according to all Shittos one isn’t mekayem on the Coffee Room:)
I once came across a Tshuva from the Minchas Yitzchok where he answers by quoting the Rebbes opinion on the matter, he quotes the Rebbe with the most honorific titles. (It’s a Tshuva on traveling on Israeli ships on Shabbos, I don’t have one next to me so I can’t give an exact source, perhaps tomorrow).
“Also, ur point does not deal with people who consider the Rambam to be lo zachu.”
I don’t think most people on this thread know what you’re talking about. And, that doesn’t apply to the Halochos of who can be Moshiach, only to the parts of how he will come, where the Rambam says “no man will know until it happens” (I’m quoting by heart, forgive me if the loshon is slightly off). According to your interpretation here of Lo Zochu, even Yoshke could be Moshiach.
Not sure what happened to my original comment about the Rebbe not being known for his gadlus in Torah, maybe the mods will put it up soon, if they don’t, then here goes:
You don’t need to take my word for it that the Rebbe zy”a was boki in all מקצועות התורה from Shas, Rishonim and Achronim to Kabbalah from Pri Eitz Chayim to Kisvei HoArizal to Zohar, you can simply open a copy of his Chiddushim Al HaRambam or Al HaShas, or any volume of Likkutei Sichos and see the copious footnotes from referencing mamash Kol HaTorah Kuloh. Additionally, as I mentioned earlier on in this thread, the well known story of the Rebbe with Reb Boruch Ber z”l. If you won’t believe the story, simply call up Rabbi Yosef Krupnik of the Vaad Harabbanim of Detroit and ask him yourself, he’s not a Lubavitcher, and he’s number is available online.
As R’ Yoel Kahan once said, “what the Meshichistim do to the Rebbe even the communists didn’t do”.
Interesting how you claim that really R Yoel is still a secret Meshichist, while most other Meshichistim I know just say that he’s a koifer.
“I’m here to defend that it is a kosher belief for whomever may hold it. ”
If you followed this thread from the beginning (yes all 350 posts…) you’d see that I do defend it as a “kosher belief”, it’s not against any of the Ikrei HaDas. But to tell people that the Rebbe declared himself as Moshiach and all other kinds of narishkaiten, does not advance Hafatzas HaMayonois in anyway. People here don’t want to have anything to do with Lubavitch after reading what you write. And if this really was what Lubavitch stands for then I don’t blame them. But as a devoted Lubavitcher Chossid, I can categorically assure you all that the Rebbe zy”a was against all of this nonsense, and that mainstream Lubavitch and our official Mosdos (Merkos L’inyonei Chinuch, Agudas Chassidei Chabad) condemn and reject these beliefs.
I think that lighting Shabbos Licht from 3 years old is a beautiful Minhag. If you don’t want to, then don’t. Many Gedolim felt for particular Minhagim and asked people to do them, no one’s forcing anyone. Many Yidden did used to keep this Minhag in Europe, and it’s a beautiful tradition to continue. I don’t see how this, of all things, gets you riled up. The Frierdiker Lubavitcher Rebbe (Harav Yosef Yitzchok Schneersohn zy”a 1880 – 1950) asked all Yidden to say extra Tehilim after davening, I’ve never heard anyone say “but in my family/Chassidus we don’t do that”. If you don’t want to, that’s fine, no one is forcing you to change your family Minhagim.
“it’s well known that after he had his stroke, people claimed that Rav Schneerson ZT”L was saying all sorts of things, each one more outlandish than the last.”
It’s also well known that the Rebbe wasn’t able to speak after his stroke in 1992.
How ironic that someone who calls himself Chochom can make up Rambams at will.
“This question has been asked before, but I will rephrase it. Is it possible for anyone else other than the Rebbe to be Moshiach?”
I don’t know what answer you’re looking for, but in my opinion, shared by many other Lubavitchers, of course it’s possible for anyone who fits the Rambams descriptions to be Moshiach. It doesn’t have to be the Rebbe.
“Sorry, it isn’t in Rambam i got confused. The Gemara discusses many times Talmidim that believed that their Rebbe is Moshiach. therefore we emulate them.”
So you went from it being a Halacha in Rambam, to it being a Gemara which tells us that an amora believed his Rebbe will be Moshiach. That Gemara does exist, and there were Chassidim of different Chassidusen in the past that believed that their Rebbe would be Moshiach. So what? Does that mean that everyone has to believe the Rebbe is Moshiach?
Your are making a Chilul Hashem berabim, being mevaze the Rebbe, and being meracheik Yidden from Chassidus. This doesn’t bring Moshiach any closer.
“One big name amongst them was Reb Yoel.”
You conveniently ignore the fact that although Reb Yoel can be credited with kind of inventing Meshichistim, he publicly denounced it after Gimmel Tammuz, and is one of the most vocal critics of Meshichistim.
“and I, in which cause I’m going to politely but strongly disagree.”
Do you disagree with the fact (seen quite clearly on this thread) that your ideas (correct or incorrect) are meracheik Yidden from Chassidus? And cause so many to hate Lubavitch? And cause such agmas nefesh to the Rebbe?
You are pouring gasoline on a raging fire with each and every comment you post here. Go learn a sicha, go learn a maamer, open a Gemara. Do something positive. Stop spreading your beliefs here. It does no good. Do you think by you explaining your shittos you’ll convince them? Do you think saying “the Rebbe said so clearly that he’s Moshiach” will make people believe that he is? All you are doing is turning people off Chassidus Chabad. You are fighting with the Rebbe, you are playing with fire!!
“bar kochba, yoshke, and the laws of a possible person u mentioned) is because they were killed.”
So you think that the only reason why Yoshke can’t be Moshiach is because he’s dead????
I’m sure you didn’t intend it that way, but watch your words.
In general, most of what you wrote here is a true embarrassment to the Rebbe. The Rebbe said about Meshichistim, (certain ones) that they are stabbing him with knives, going against all the Rebbeim until the Baal Shem Tov, and are holding back the Geula from coming. ( This is printed in 5745 if I’m not mistaken. Off hand it might be Simchas Torah or somewhere around there.)