sechel83

@qwerty “I learn Avodah Zarah, Berachos and Shabbos..Most of the time is on Berachos. I try to make a Siyum every year for my Chabad shul on Erev Pesach. By the way I take about 25 hours to learn a blatt, because I write questions and answers. ”
which blatt? lets discuss the sugya!
also anyone looked up the medrash, gemarah and zohar that calls Yaakov Avinu G-D? and creator of worlds? anyone have an issue?

@yserbius as qwertny wrote ” He said that the Meshichistim don’t bother him, it’s the Elokistim, those who believe that the Rebbe is god who worry him.” i saw the letter, he writes he heard lubavitchers in benching say “boreinu” could he thats what he heard, sometimes people hear things they assume or imagine, boreinu is very similar to moreinu.
and you looked up the medrash, gemarah and zohar that calls Yaakov Avinu G-D? and creator of worlds? you have an issue? what’s the difference?

To Seichel
Let’s put aside Lichtenstein s program. I want to know what you think. 1. Is the Rebbe physically alive? 2. Is he Moshiach? 3. Is he god clothed in human form? 4. Does he run the world? 5. Is/was he a Novi?
1 he’s found in the physicall world more now than 31 yrs ago (see tanya igeres hatshuvah perek 27)
2 a rebbe by definition is moshiach – see kuntres inyana shel toras hachasidus
3 the rebbe is not g-d ch”v. if you want to understand what that sicha means, and why the gedolim who saw it did not have an issue with it, just like they did not have an issue with the medrash and gemarah that calls yaakov avinu “g-d” (see below) see maamer הקבצו ושמעו in המשך הידוע
ד״יום טוב של ראש השנה – תרס״ו״
והנה במד״ר אמרו ושמעו אל ישראל אביכם, אל הוא ישראל אביכם, מה
הקב״ה בורא עולמות, אף אביכם בורא עולמות, מה הקב״ה מחלק עולמות, אף אביכם מחלק עולמות וכ״ה בגמ׳ מגילה די״ח א׳ ע״פ ויקרא לו אל אלקי ישראל, אלקי ישראל קרא ליעקב אל ובזהר איתא ג״כ קוב״ה קרא ליעקב אל. וכ״ה במדרש ע״פי ויקרא לו אל כו׳, אני אלקה בעליונים ואתה אלוה בתחתונים(כ״ה הגי׳ בילקוטי). וצ״ל איך שייך לומר כן על יעקב שלמטה
the maamer goes on to explain what it means (its from the rashab)
4 see the above quote about yaakov, explanation is there what it means
5 – the rambam writes that someone who predicts the future is a navi, its one of the 13 ikrim, one must beleive so. so yes definatly.
back to you 1) is yaakov g-d? does he create worlds? if not is the author of medrash and gemara a min? an oved ovada zara????

qwerty613
I don’t know which question you are referring to, sorry
@ always ask: This book has enormous number of citations, I never saw anything documented as well as this sefer. S
So great that’s my point. (I wrote that he makes up stuff, I came acroos a hakria vihakdusha he openly twisted the words (even though he quotes the source) and therefore calls it kefira. (you can check the original yourself)
Lemayseh

Great point – it is very important to know that the Agudas Harabbonim, of which Rav Moshe was President in his later years, had a Lubavitcher secretary, by the name of Avrohom Shmuel Lewin,
Meaning they did not have an issue with Chabad. Reb moshe passed away before the big focus on the rebbe was moshiach started, but you can NOT decide what he would have held. As I mentioned before reb moshe backed the rebbe’s mivtzoim and the parade even though R’ shach wrote against it. The sicha that the rebbe is atzmus inclothed in a body was said over 30 yrs before R moshe was niftar, and printed over 20 yrs – in the 60s.
People keep claiming that we believe the rebbe is g-d, and that sicha is kefira ch”v, well all the gedolim were around then.

@yeserbius Neither of you have taken up my challenge: Go find a RANDOM selection of non-Chabad Rabbonim and ask them if it’s OK to believe that a dead man is Moshiach. If you want, you can even start with Rav Breitowitz SHLITA
There is a video of Rav breitowitz talking about the lubavitchers who believe the rebbe is moshiach, its on youtube, he said there is nothing wrong as mentioned before he wrote a haskama to a sefer too

@square root: see what I wrote to lemayse.

@yankel berel : in the times of the baal hatanya, the misnagdim accused chassidim of praying to the rebbe, the rebbe as being a cult leader, it being a new religion – go learn history, read yehoshu mundshin’s books, he brings all the Russian documents from the arrest of the baal hatanya. It’s a fact
Today people without opening up a Tanya, decide that the baal hatanya went with the litvishe derecho, its only today all the Chabad things started. Go open a Tanya
I’ll make a bet, anyone who brings a sicha, maamer, letter, etc of the Rebbe (My rebbe) that I can not find a makor in the seforim of the baal hatanya or his son the miteler rebbe – ill resign from being a chassid (I would give you money if you want $500)

@qwerty the quote that chabad is the closest religion to judaism was made before chabad ever said moshiach can be someone who died, and before the sicha about the rebbe being atzmus umehus in a guf was printed. (i.e. reb aharon kotler said such a statement (according to making of a gadal – who makes up many things so i dont know how trustworthy he is -) and he passed away before the sicha was printed.
the reason for that statement was becasue chabad as well as other chassidus, place the main focus on love and fear of hashem, kavanah, hachanos, etc.
the misnagdim who put the baal hatanya in prison, accused chassidim of being a cult with a leader, praying to the baal hatanya ch”v, the maggid, etc all the attacks that you think were craeted in the past 40 yrs. all old stuff, do your research.

please answer the question
are the following Rabbonim apikorsim for saying that moshiach can come from the dead, and the chabad belief is totally accepted?
the following Rabbonim were asked about their opinion on chabad Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetsky, Rabbi Nissan Kaplan, Rabbi Hershel Shachter, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Shafran, Rabbi Dovid Cohen, Rabbi Dovid Yosef,
they all said there is NOTHING wrong with those who say the rebbe is moshiach, final.
in kuntres shmo shel moshiach which is a sefer about if moshiach can be from the dead, the following Rabbonim gave haskomos: Rabbi Yitzchok Breitewitz, Rabbi Zev Leff.

@qwerty, yserbius
on lichtenstein show 102, the following Rabbonim were asked about their opinion on chabad Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetsky, Rabbi Nissan Kaplan, Rabbi Hershel Shachter, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Shafran, Rabbi Dovid Cohen, Rabbi Dovid Yosef,
they all said there is NOTHING wrong with those who say the rebbe is moshiach, final.
in kuntres shmo shel moshiach which is a sefer about if moshiach can be from the dead, the following Rabbonim gave haskomos: Rabbi Yitzchok Breitewitz, Rabbi Zev Leff

you want to call all these Rabbonim apikorsim ch”v?? thats what you are saying

(about what they say that those who say the Rebbe is g-d ch”v are minim, we went thru this many times, but these Rabbonim themselves many learn the Rebbe’s torah (you can find them talking about it on a recent interview,) Many of them are very close to chabad, Rav shmuel Kamenetsky gave a haskama to tzivos hashem Yahadus book, full of sichos of the Rebbe, and they never came out against the rebbe himself in public.
so obviously they have a bit more brains than you and know that what the rebbe said in the sicha, is the same thing written in gemara, medrash, zohar, yerushalmi, and it just needs to be understood properly and not twisted. those who understand it in a twisted way (or for that matter understand the gemara, medrash, pesukim in chumash etc, litterly or twisted, are also minim.)

@qwertly and lamayse: they all said there is NOTHING wrong with believing the rebbe is moshiach, fact! listen again!
some said that the ones who daven to the rebbe ch”v, we should be merachek.
i agree, i would consider someone who davens to the rebbe, an oved avoda zara. just like i would consider all those who daven to r’ aharon kotler.
they never said to assume any lubavitchers daven to the rebbe, they just said it exists (i have no clue how they came to this conclusion)

(@yeserbius)
Why is chabad Torah spreading more and more? A few weeks ago there were interviews where many rabbonim spoke about learning likutai sichos
I.e. Rav Hershel shachter, Rav Moshe Elefant, Rav Yitzchok Britowitz, Rav sholomo Katz .
Why is this, why don’t you have people from all circles running to other seforim? The reason may be explained by what R’ Leibel wulliger said (and is clear to anyone who spent time learning likutai sichos)

Rabbi Leibel Wulliger of Boro Park, Rosh Kollel of Yeshiva Torah V’Daas, urged all Torah Jews to study Likkutei Sichos. As he put it:

“These teachings show us how to live and how to shape our homes. Everybody should learn the Rebbe’s sichos regularly, daily; if not, at least once a week.”

Chabad won media maybe.
Anti chabad won the mishpacha and Yated neeman. So?

@lemayseh
Also includes Rav Bridewitz who gave a haskama to a Sefer about how the rebbe is still moshiach. See shmo shel moshiach

@right jew. thanks for the reference. looks like great videos,
btw there is a new book published trying to explain The Torah Philosophy of the Lubavitcher Rebbe
written by a Yeshiva University Rabbi called “Engaging the Essence”
(if you read his book honestly maybe you’ll understand what it means Atzmus U’mehus enclothed in a body)

@damoshe. i didn’t write the story, i copied from a website that copied from making of a gadol.

Just to mention R’ schneur kotlers connection to chabad:
What was the Rebbe Rayatz and the Rebbe‘s involvement in the Shiduch of Rabbi Shneur Kotler? How did the Rebbe help Rabbi Meir Ashkenazi win the Din Torah against Rabbi Aharon Kotler?
It’s from the book making of a gadol

The following story was told over by Rabbi Moshe Ashkenazi OBM, member of Agudas Chassidei Chabad in Israel, and son of Rabbi Meir Ashkenazi OBM, a Chabad Chossid and the Rov of Shanghai:

In 1940, as a Bochur, Rabbi Shneur Kotler fled Poland for Vilna, the capital of Lithuania, where many of the Non-Chassidic Yeshivos relocated due to the World War which began. In Vilna, he became engaged to Rischel Friedman, daughter of Rabbi Malkiel Friedman of Kovno.

A short while later, his grandfather, Rabbi Isser Zalman Meltzer sent the young Shneur a visa to enter Mandatory Palestine, which saved his life, while his bride escaped to Shanghai, a haven for many European Jews who escaped the war horrors and were saved.

During her stay in Shanghai, Rischel contracted the deadly Typhus disease, which threatened her life, and was placed in isolation, where she was expected to die. However, Rabbi Meir Ashkenazi and his wife didn’t give up hope, and took the young girl under their wing, caring for all her needs, and ensuring her recovery from the deadly disease. Afterwards, she dedicated herself to helping Chabad Bochurim in Shanghai, serving as the translator for the doctors who did not speak Yiddish or Polish, translating what the Bochurim told the doctors, and what the doctors ordered the Bochurim.

The next years were filled with worries about her family left behind in Europe, and she looked forward to meeting

During the war, Rischel looked forward to meeting her groom, Rabbi Shneur Kotler, who was then in Israel. In 1946, after the war ended, and the first chance of meeting her groom came about, Rischel was smuggled in a suitcase aboard a ship to the USA, where she hoped to meet her groom and get married. During the trip she was sick, and Gershon Chanowitz, one of the Chabad Bochurim she helped, ensured she was taken care of, so she can recover.

However, one person was not happy with this arrangement; the father of the groom, Rabbi Aharon Kotler, was vehemently opposed to the Shiduch, claiming that the Typhus will cause her to die young and not be able to have children; he therefore demanded that the girl forgive her Chosson and cancel the engagement.

Rischel was devastated, and sent a message that since the Chosson is still in favor of the Shiduch, she will only cancel the Shiduch if Rabbi Meir Ashkenazi will approve.

While this was going on, Rabbi Aharon Kotler called Rabbi Meir Ashkenazi to a Din Torah, asking for the funds that Rabbi Ashkenazi used for Chabad students during the war, and demanding he pay it back. The background to this story:
As a result of the pending Din Torah, and the Shiduch crisis, Rabbi Ashkenazi went into Yechidus to the Frierdiker Rebbe and asked him what to do about these two issues. The Frierdiker Rebbe answered that he should consult with the Rebbe (then known as the “Ramash”) and do as he says.

The Ramash told Rabbi Asheknazi that he should stand strong to ensure the Shiduch takes place, saying that since they made Halachic T’naim, they have to follow through, and added that he doesn’t see a reason that she should be barren or die early. The Ramash also told him, that he should push off the Din Torah until after the wedding, and then he should claim that since he risked his life for getting the money, he was entitled to a percentage, and that this percentage he gave to Chabad Bochurim; he added that he should ask the Beis Din to determine the amount.

Rabbi Ashkenazi did as he was told, and after much convincing and even arranging a nice-sized dowry, he was able to convince Rabbi Aharon Kotler to allow his son, Shneur to marry Rischel.

After the wedding, Rabbi Ashkenazi went into Yechidus to the Rebbe Rayatz, and reported his conversation with the Ramash and the wedding. The Rebbe Rayatz spent a long time asking questions about the wedding, demanding to know every detail, including who was present, who spoke, what was served, etc. and thanked him profusely for his help.

After the wedding, when the Din Torah took place, Rabbi Ashkenazi presented his claims to the Beis Din, as ordered by the Rebbe, and the Beis Din found that Rabbi Aharon Kotler owes money to Rabbi Ashkenazi! Rabbi Ashkenazi replied, that he wants that the balance should be given to the young couple as dowry, and asked the Beis Din to ensure that it was fulfilled.

During the years that passed, Mrs. Rischel Kotler kept a connection with Rabbi & Mrs. Meir Ashkenazi, referring to them as her “parents,” and instructed her children to respect them and keep a friendship. When it was time for her son, Rabbi Yitzchok Shraga Kotler to get married, he married Miriam, granddaughter of Rabbi Meir Ashkenazi.

@da correct if you reject a clear gemarah (I e. If you’re an apikores) then yes, your right!

Gimmel tamuz is coming: the last maamer the rebbe gave out speaks about the avoda that needs to be in America, that even though a jew can be comfortable physically and spiritually to the ultimate (don’t know anyone holding there) , he needs to be broken from the fact that another jew is not on this level , 30 yrs later, let’s wake up!!!!

This sounds like “my tatty is stronger than your tatty”

@da
1) in yeshiva in chabad they have sefer learning gemarah for 7 hours.
2) sichos are also Torah – many of them are pilpulim in gemarah – so it’s the same thing as learning a reb chain or a ketzos which you would consider learning gemarah. And the Rashi ones or chassidus ones are also Torah. Anything wrong with learning Chumash Rashi and meforshim.
3) chassidus is Torah, just because you don’t hold of learning it, we go like shitas chabad, and it’s even paskened in shulchan aruch that one should learn kabalah, penimius hatorah. The baal hatanya writes one should learn 1 third of the day penimius hatorah. (It’s in likutai Torah, it’s referenced in shulchan aruch harav hilchos Talmud Torah)
4) first of all the sugar of nisim is a sugya in chassidus and kabalah. See hachodesh 5666 – of the the deepest concepts in chassidus. People spend a year learning this sugya or more. 2nd of all – I heard 2 litvaks discussing who is a bigger gadol reb Moshe of reb shlome zalman. So….. Point?
5) I would actually like to have a gemarah discussion with you and see your level of learning, start a new thread, whatever sugya you want.

It’s very simple, the event is to raise money, אם אין קמח אין תורה
No music, no event (or a tiny event in a bais medrash in Lakewood that may raise 1% of the funds needed)

@da checked up the Toldos Yakov Yosef on Chukas, it’s not clear to me what he is referring to, but he mentions it in many places (I saw in the מפתח,) and they bring in the sources from kisvai arizal פרי עץ חיים פרק ו,
So why don’t you learn the arizal? You don’t hold of arizal?
How did you understand the idea of a tzadik lowering himself into the levels of tumah? And what is your issue with that?

@chaim could be maybe I’ll watch the adirai hatorah speeches and see what they are saying and tell you what I think about it .
I definitely agree with you that many chassidim focus too much on schar and onesh, I’m not sure where it comes from. Maybe the lack of learning chassidus.

@da
It’s hard to discuss rumors or quotes that I don’t see the context
Can you bring me where you get this quote from “But that’s not what the Besht taught – he taught that the tzaddik has to lower himself into realms of tumah in order to lift others out.”
To say the baal shem tov changed the mesorahs 1) you need to. Point out an example and show how it’s a new idea not mentioned in any proceeding seforim (otherwise you can’t claim it’s new) 2) even if the baal shem tov taught an idea which you say was never practiced before, 1) what’s the issue of not following mesorahs (unless you claim it’s AGAINST Torah) 2) the baal shem tov new more Torah than me and I’m sure he had his mekoros, he also had talmidim geonim adirim who accepted his ways and did not attack him for changing mesorah.
The gra did not change mesorah?? 1) he argues with shulchan aruch??!!
What exactly is mesorah in the first place? I need to follow everything exactly the way my father did? What if my father got a heter to be makil in something, I can’t be machmir? How in the world should I know everything what to do just by growing up in my father’s house for 20 yrs or less? What if my father was not the biggest tzadik, I should follow him? What about all the new things happening in the world – internet, radio, technology, etc?

More about connecting to a tzadik and receiving from him higher understanding and revelations in g-dliness see עמק המלך הקדמה שלישית פרק ג-ה
משנת חסידים מס’ היחודים
Do you agree with these seforim or you argue with them too?

@Damoshe I didn’t write that arguing is apikores, I wrote that saying a talmid chachams teachings are preposterous is apikores. (It’s a clear gemarah, if you can’t find it, then for sure you have no business making fun of teachings of a talmid chachams)
The gra may have argued with CERTAIN teachings, that doesn’t give you the right to make fun of things they say when you have no proof.
Can you bring exactly what the gra called apikores?
You know they agree at least on one thing – zmanim, who said he argued on עיבור נשמות – כתבי ארי
You know the gemarah says 4 died בעטיו של נחש – they had no sin. Is that also apikores?

@damoshe:
“Sechel: the idea that a person can’t get to higher levels on their own without a Rebbe lifting them up in preposterous. It’s one of the main issues I have with chassidus.”
1) this idea is mentioned in Tanya perek 14 by the end, so just putting it clean that’s it’s an old idea.
2) I see here and before too, that you make fun of teachings of the baal hatanya or the baal shem tov, you really think you have better comments sences than them?!
If you would say you follow the opinion of I.e. nefesh hachaim that one should not focus as much as chassidim on kavana, hachanos, or not contemplating yichuda ilaah rather only yichuda tataa (as he writes in שער ב), ok, I understand you,
But how can you – by yourself – decide that teachings of the baal shem tov or the baal hatanya (who I’m sure you know were baki in kol hatorah kula – niglah, and nistar) is preposterous?!?
I think that’s called an apikores!!

From the first Mishnah in brachos read simply, one would think that when he reads krias Shima by maariv he fullfils the mitzvah. Rashi comes and says that “we” who daven early are not fulfilling the mitzvah rather we are yotze with krias shma sheal hamita. So why do we read shma by maariv, he brings a yerushalmi that explains – to stand up to davening – shmoneh esre – from divrai Torah. Tosfos has many questions on Rashi and explains different.
Point being is that everyone realizes that you can’t conclude a halacha from learning a Mishnah simply.
How much more so with chassidus which is penimius hatorah,
(Those who think chassidus is just a dress code or a “matzav” to feel a part of, Does it make sense to say the baal hatanya or kedushas Levi or the hundreds of the other chavraya kadisha went to the mazritcher magid to learn a dress code??!!)

Some examples for the baal shem tov about doing something good with a self motive or feeling
כשמתענה אדם אפילו משבת לשבת, ויהיה לו פניה אפילו קטנה, שיאמר בלבו שהוא עושה דבר גדול שעינה את עצמו כ”כ הרבה, ויזדכך מאד בזה, זה התענית בא לסט”א. רק יחשוב בלבו, מה מעשי נחשבים נגד עבודת המלאכים שעבודתם בתמידות להש”י, ואני טפה סרוחה וסופי לעפר.

המהלך בדרך יחידי <ושונה ומפסיק ממשנתו כו’, קשה דהל”ל ומפסיק ממשנתו והוה ידעינן דהיה שונה, עוד קשה מעלה עליו הכתוב ולא מפרש איזה כתוב.
וי”ל> הפי’, <כי ה>הולך בדרך הישר, ואפילו הכי הוא יחידי שאינו דבוק בהשי”ת, ושונה ומפסיק ממשנתו, ר”ל מפסיק א”ע מהש”י מחמת משנתו, דהיינו שבאה לו גדלות והתפארות מחמת משנתו <שסובר שהוא משנתו שלו>, ואומר מה נאה אילן זה, ועל עצמו אומר כן בלבו, כמ”ש כי האדם עץ השדה, <ואומר דהוא אלנא די רבא ותקיף>, ומה נאה ניר זה, כמ”ש נירו לכם ניר, <פי’ שאומר שמכין לעצמו חלק לעוה”ב ע”י משנתו>, מעלה עליו הכתוב <פי’ כתוב שנ’ תמים תהיה עם ה’ אלקיך, פי’ אפי’ כשתעסוק בתורה שנאמר בה תורת ה’ תמימה, וז”ש תמים תהיה, אפילו בעסק התורה תהיה עם ה’ אלקיך, ולא תימא הלא התורה ממילא נקרא תורת ה’, וז”ש מעלה עליו הכתוב הזה, שכולל כל התורה>, כאלו מתחייב בנפשו.

Here we see the chassidus approach of what is kedusha – bitul – not feeling self, and what is kelipa – feeling self.
This is explained in Tanya at length (see I.e. perek 6 and 35)

@chaim87
Litvaks mesorah is from the gra? All litvaks I know never learned the first 3 shaarim of nefesh hachaim, at most they learned shaarim 4. They didn’t either learn any kabala seforim from the gra. The gra writes that you should educate even children not to serve hashem for reward – gan Eden and punishment – gehenom.
Today’s “yeshivish” Jews have no connection to the ways of the gra,
From nefesh hachaim shaar 3 perek 8
מטעם שודאי ראוי להאדם הישר חכם לבב הקבוע כל הימים בת”ת ומצות אשר נאמנה את אל רוחו לידע מציאות זה הענין הנורא דרך כלל שאדון יחיד ית”ש מלא את כל ואין עוד מלבדו ית’ להלהיב מזה טוהר קדושת מחשבתו לעבודת התפלה לכוין לבו באימה ויראה ורתת למקום הוא מקומו של עולם. (ומקומו של עולם הוא הוא כוונת ענין הצמצום. והוא מבואר כנ”ל)
Could be litvaks daven long but the focus is on the simple meaning of the words, the focus of chassidim is in addition to contemplate before davening on גדלות הקל – אחדות ה’ and to arouse love for hashem. And not to focus on our needs during davening as the Zohar writes against that (brought also in nefesh hachaim shaar 2)
Chassidus came to awaken Jews to serve hashem with feelings of love and fear, all the actions – hidurim – came out from it,
Chitzonius vs pnimius,
Today could be many chassidim don’t work on פנימיות and not either חיצוניות, or only chitzonius. and could be many litvaks work on חיצוניות – being careful in halacha, chumros etc. That’s not chassidus, chassidus is penimius.
Shtreimal is not even a chassidus thing,
Kedusha is chassidus the focus was on davening which automatically kept a person away from the opposite of kedusha – see likutai Torah, from Zohar. Screaming about shmiras enayim is not the derech of chassidus, and does not accomplish anything.