sechel83

@yserbius #motzi shem ra, choshed bichsharim.
if someone beleives the rebbe is alive sitting in his chair then what? which one of the 13 ikrim does this contradict. (learn igeres hatshuvah (tanya) #27, sefer chassidim about rebbi, gemarah kesubos 103 i think)

thats my point. people who never learned chassidus say that. other rebbes were against certain things in chabad for example voting in israel, satmer is against, so they are against lubavitch and ponovitch and many others. as well as many other examples. only one famous rosh yeshiva, was against everything chabad did and does.

litvaks understand moshiach (and judaism) very gashmiusdik. a king will get up – maybe natanyahu – get rid of all the arabs from yerushalayim and eretz yisroel, build the bais hamikdash, bring all yidden to israel and they will learn gemara. chassidus explains much deeper, what a king really is, the giluy elokus that will be then, what a bais hamikdash is bepnimius, etc

i think every chabadsker loves rav shach and all misnagdim. that dosent mean i need to follow him, or accept was he said, or think he was a tzadik (al pi tanya, obviously him and every other jew is a tzadim – veamach kulom tzadikim)

so the chofetz chayim promoted ahavas yisroel and being carefull about lashon hara. we should all be more carefull in that. yes chabad believes that hashem created the world to have a dirah bitachtonim, which we accomplish by every mitzvah we do, it will be completed when moshiach comes – see tanya perekim 36-37. actually this idea is the most in line with doing mitzvos only to fullfill the ratzon of hashem. too deep to explain. learn hemshach yom tov shel rosh hashana 5666 to understand at length (close to 1 thousend pages) or at least the first 100 pages or so to get an idea. one point, all the other reasons it says in gemara, medrash, zohar, are all reasons that are intellectual, נתאוה הקב”ה להיות לו דירה בתחתונים is only because hashem was נתאוה. there is no reason why hashem desires this. and no gain either to hashem or us. only hashem desires.

its funny, if the alter rebbe didm’t write the shulchan aruch, the misnagdim probobly would have said today that he wasn”t a talmid chacham, like some might say about the other chabad rebbe’s. the rogotchover gaon once spoke about the rebbe maharash that he was a great gaon, someone asked him how does he know being that he didn’t speak or print much niglah? the rogetchover answered that he can see from his maamarim chassidus. maybe others should follow his example, look at a maamer of the rebbe or previous chabad rabbaim, although its not a pilpul on a tosfos, but in one sefer maamarim is quoted from all over shas, rishonim, achronim. all medrashim, tons of sifrai kabala etc. thousends of m”m, seems like some are just blind. i dont understand how some can say such stupid things that about the rebbes.

@yserbius: A very very Chareidi Rebbi? sounds like a person speaking lashon hara, apikorsos – the gemara says a apikores is someone who embarases a talmid chacham -, causing sinas chinam which the whole told was given to make shalom in the world. whats charidi about him?

learn kuntres Shmoi Shel Moshiach. The Kuntres provides an in-depth analysis, into the topic of Moshiach from the maisim, as discussed by Chazal.

people kept on coming up with more and more things to attack chassidim with, first it was we want moshiach now, then how can chabad say their rebbe is moshiach (before 3 tamuz) , then after 3 tamuz it was how can moshiach be from the dead. just another accuse.
it seems some litvaks dont are scared of moshiach ?? dont know!!

i think from being around, the litvaks dont talk about it beetween themselves, but when they bump into chabad in camps or vacations, they – the teenagers and kids attack the chabad kids or teenagers, maybe they come back to school and mention to their friends what happened. b”h today the typical litvak respects chabad,
but just to mention, a regular litvak is not taught in school about chabad, so they just hear random stuf from their friends like they do kiruv, and mivtzoim, many young ones think that the chabad houses are there for them to have a minyan when they go on vecation.
its like in chabad we are not toaght about their gadol hador and many in chabad never heard of alot of things by them and may think its strang or even have things about them twisted.

lets say i would say yes, would i be a kofer or apikores or both? please explain why?
i believe the rebbe had the neshama of yechida haklolis and was the moshiach of the generation, now he can still be, but i believe there is someone alive today who can be moshiach. i beleive this is the comen belief in chabad meshichist which i have no clue how big this group is

one can only know what a misnaged is if he knows what chassidus is. some say they are against chabad cuz …… did you ever learn keser shem tov from the baal shem tov or baal shem tov al hatorah?

you can see it on otzar hachachma in the sefer ביקור שיקאגו which is the sichos the frierdike rebbe said in chicago in 5702 page 21
you can find ספר השיחות תשב there also but youll need to buy a subscription to see past the first 100 pages i don’t know why Hebrew books doesn’t have it.
(btw now you can attack me for writing 100 and not 150)
anyways i dont even know what were arguing about anymore. i just brought this up to point out – like even you just wrote – that the misnagdim were against the idea of “A major issue was the replacement or addition to the talmid chochom as the only leadership position of klal yisroel, with someone whose chief activities and notoriety was in the area of avodah and tzidkus. While integral to yiddishkeit, the idea of a leader being defined as a leader by anything else besides torah was objectionable.”
i was pointing out that today this is what we do in chabad, we have out talmid chachom – the rebbe – (anyone honest who looked into the rebbe knows he was a גאון עולם) and we give him major respect.

bh the teachings of the baal shem tov hakadosh are being spread more and more, and more and more people are following what he thought. אימתי קאתי מר לכשיפוצו מעינותיך חוצה. bh may it be very soon.

yserbius please tell me about this machlokes when techiyas hamasim will be.
ראה יומא ה,ב, based on that gemara some explain that tzadikim will have techiyas hamasim right when moshiach comes, but even without that: everyone agrees that there will be techiyas hamasim, can someone explain to me what is the sevara that moshiach cant be from the masim?
even according to the zohar (which probobly only chabad heard of) that techiyas hamasim will be later, explain to me the simple reason for it. if you cant explain it to me, then learn לקוטי שיחות חלק כז בחוקתי.

avaira, the point i was referring to in tanya was to explain what a tzadik is. perek bais explains the different levels of neshamos, a talmid chachon is a neshama diatzilus, if you want to understand a little what is means, look in the chabad biurim, or basi ligani 5729, or just take the words and have no clue what is means, 29 also takls about what a tzadik is.
keser shem tov was the first sefer printed of the teachings of the baal shem tov btw, you should learn the whole thing before criticize chabad, cuz youll see, its all there.

you can learn about it in לקוטי שיחות פרשת בחוקתי.

ראה כתר שם טוב קלב, הוספות צב, קלה,קלו,קלח,קמג,קנז, קנח
ראה תניא פרק ב, כט
ועוד ועוד

avaira: “Plus the fact that in 2,000 years of seforim, the messianics can only find 2 mentions of even the concept of moshiach from the maysim, shows how beyond the pale the idea is.”
how many times can you find in seforim that moshiach needs to be alive before moshiach comes? and that someone who says moshiach can come from the dead is an apikores?
the rambam? how can the rambam say
אל יעלה על הלב שבימות המשיח יבטל דבר ממנהגו של עולם או יהיה שם חידוש במעשה בראשית אלא עולם כמנהגו נוהג ….. אמרו חכמים אין בין העולם הזה לימות המשיח אלא שיעבוד מלכיות בלבד.
what about techiyas hamasim? its not a chidush in masai birashis?
so in chabad we learn about moshiach in depth and it comes out that in hilchos milachim basiclly the rambam is explaining the geder of moshiach al pi halacha, in a matzav of lo zachu, but in a motzav of zachu, it can be different.
if you dont like this answer, so you have another one? show how much you know about this sugya!
dont just take lines of a sugya you never spent time learning!
i only said “just learn chassidus” about people having attacks on chassidus, i wouldn’t attack a line in a medicine book lihavdil, cuz i never learned medicine and have no clue the terms and how it works. . anyone with a brain understands what i mean. stupid argument.
im very proud the less i know about other gedolim, i have one rebbe that’s enough, i try to follow his teachings, what i do realize on this forum is that alot of litvaks dont have a clear derech – they take one thing from this gadol, another thing from another gadol etc. i.e. r’ shach was against the way most litvaks spent weeks on a blatt gemara (מכתבים ומאמרים) reb moshe was also. many more examples.

@avira. thats exactly my point, those were the original complaints. (i cant argue about history, you can do research) today these ideas are laughable that even you think they could never have happened.

Edited for rudeness

so now i remember “The Rosh Yeshiva of The Hildesheimer Seminar”, i heard about it recently after reading the book “turning judaism outward” he mentions the story that the rebbe needed to get a rabbinical degree from there to get into berlin, so the rebbe told him he can test him on any sefer in his library, r hildesheimer gave the rebbe a sefer he himself wrote recently to study, and the rebbe came back a few days later to get tested.
i focus more on the rebbe’s maamarim and sichos then on the story’s. in fact it says in the above book, that the rebbe only mentioned once publicly by a farbrengen anything about the university. i have nothing against rav hirsh, chas vishalom. my derech is chassidus chabad, (b”h i enjoy this derech, i dont think there is anything else i need,) and there are hundreds of sifrai chassidus chabad to keep me busy for many yrs to come.
“If the shoe fits….” thats my point that someone decided that moshiach cant come from the dead even though its a clear gemara, abarbenel, sdai chemed etc. or other things and storys about what some chabad chassidim do that are just bologna, once you beleive the bologna, that justifies all the lashon hara etc.

btw for the peaple complaining chabad learns too much chassidus and sichos and not gemara
1) litvaks do the smae thing, they focus on r chaim, reb baruch ber, just learn the gemarah and rishonim!
2) so you have an issue that be look at our rebbe with too much respect, 1) its a clear mishnah מורא רבך כמורא שמים, כל המהרהר אחר רבו כמהרהר אחרי שכינה. many more, 2) one of the big issues the original misnagdim had with chassidus, was that the baal shem tov said that even tzadikim need to do teshuvah, they shouldnt be happy with their level of serving hashem, and that he was mikarev simple yidden, he sent his students – tzadikim to learn about ענוה and other middos tovos from simple jews. just saying, cuz now you say we give too much kavod to a real talmid chacham. whatever its all excuses. learn החלצו תרנט.

so some people have an issue:
sinas chinam, lashon hara, motzi shem ra etc.
so whats their solution? first be motzi shem ra that they are apikorsim, then that justifies being further motzi shem ra, lashon hara ..
that works maybe to jusify yourself to your freind but to g-d?
you should check what the baal shem tov says on נפרעין מן האדם מדעתו ושלא מדעתו,
כי שמעתי בשם הבעל-שם-טוב: כי קודם כל גזר דין שבעולם חס ושלום, מאספין כל העולם אם מסכימין להדין ההוא, ואף את האיש בעצמו שנגזר עליו הדין חס ושלום, שואלין אותו אם הוא מסכים, אזי נגמר הדין חס ושלום, והענין, כי בודאי אם ישאל לו בפירוש על עצמו, בודאי יכחיש ויאמר שאין הדין כן, אך מטעין אותו, ושואלין אותו על כיוצא בו, והוא פוסק הדין, ואזי נגמר הדי

reb aharon solovaichik – who wrote the letter (you can search it on google to see a copy) passed away in 2001

i havo issue saying that i misinterpreted the kuntres acharon,
the problem is that you need to read past the first line, (if you can’t understand past there, then either 1) learn more chassidus till you understand, or 2) dont say opinions on something you dont know
in chassidus this is a big sugya whats higher and whats the kavana, etzem, giluyim etc. mentions it in tanya many times, learn hemshech 5666 – around 1000 (yes one thousend) pages and come back.
btw a quote from the kuntres acharon:
אלא שידיעת המציאות מההשתלשלות, היא גם כן מצוה רמה ונשאה, ואדרבה – עולה על כולנה, כמו שכתוב: ״וידעת היום כו׳״, ״דע את אלקי אביך כו׳״, ומביאה ל״לב שלם״ כו׳, שהוא העיקר, והשגת המציאות הוא להפשיט מגשמיות כו