write or wrong

a mamin- Thanks! Chag Sameach to you too!

a mamin and mom12- can’t believe you’re still ‘with’ me, after all this time..! How is your son doing mom12?

Thanks for your tefillah and thinking of me….

May we all see only nachas from our children…

Thank-you Moderator.

I was about to say that it’s quite unfortunate that this thread was being used for something that has nothing to do with the original topic.

For anyone who’s been following my saga, I will give a short update.

My son is now 20, and is in the army. He is still OTD. I have learned many things the past few years, and was given lots of advice from lots of people. Often, conflicting advice. It’s an extremely painful and difficult test when a child goes off the derech. It challenges our faith, our marriage and our identity. I don’t think there is a theory or therapy that will work in all situations, given that there are usually many variables. But I do think that certain attitudes must be included, even though they may contradict, and it is up to each parent to find that balance that works for both them and their child. There’s no guarantee! But most critical is to make sure your child knows you love them. It sounds so simple, but this itself is a huge challenge bc you are not happy with anything they are doing…and they know it. If you can convey this love, then I also believe you must set limits. But it has to be done with love, not with the need to take control and exert authority. Our husbands have to be very careful that they don’t get into power struggles with the OTD child. They will not win! And I believe it will be an obstacle for the child to come back. We learn how to respect and love Hashem based on the relationship we have with our parents. If we keep this in mind at all times, then I think it will help us in our interactions with our OTD child and all our children.

Perhaps the most important thing is Tefillah and keeping our emunah strong. It is a test for our child as much as it is for ourselves. We don’t see the bigger picture, but Hashem is directing everything for the ultimate good. My role is to be a loving mother, available and dedicated, praying that my son overcome his challenges and return to the family that awaits him…..and Hashem. Hatzlacha to all…

MsPrincess- Although you may have noble reasons for wanting to talk to this boy, you should not be connecting to any boy for any reason! If you want to help him, contact kiruv organizations and give the information to his sisters. Hatzlacha!

Speaker-I will try to discuss this again with my husband and see if he’s receptive. How much time do you think we’d need to be with Avi?

a mamin- Ani lo maamina that you still think of me!! Truly, we are Am echad!

adams-thanks for your post. I really do hope that my story will end up happy like yours did. I’m not sure my son has a love of Hashem, which was probably key in bringing you back. Your mother sounds very special, as it is very difficult to be tested like this. My son is mechalel Shabbos without any regard to our feelings, and would never apologize for it. We are still ambivalent as to how to deal with it. If it was a one time thing, we might be able to look away. But it isn’t.

owl-I’m not sure I agree with you. There are many wonderful frum therapists out there. Anyway, my son would never go to a frum therapist.

SaysMe-Sparks are good! Never give up hoping and praying. Pesach is a special time, who knows what can happen? I hope that things work out for you and your family!

smc-what dedication! I know I haven’t posted in a while, maybe bc I am hoping for a good ending….a grand finale!

Some things have improved, my son is making a concerted effort to make a change for the better. Unfortunately, he is still so wounded emotionally and won’t seek out any emotional help. Our relationship is better, but he won’t take my advice on getting help. I think that if it doesn’t come through some “round about way”, then he wouldn’t accept it anyway. Hashem is going to have to send him some shaliach who he can connect with and will be receptive to listening to on his own inititative. He is very resistant to the idea of “prearranged” or organized counseling. I somehow wish he could just bump into Rav Shimon Russell in the street, and voila! He still struggles and has deep pain, even as he is mechalel Shabbos….bc he believes he is doing something wrong! Believe me, I just don’t know how to help him. I can only love him and pray and beg the Borei Olam to save him..

Observer 36- Since my son went OTD, I was sure something traumatic must have happened to him. And sometimes I still think so, however he won’t go for counseling more than a couple of times, so how will we ever know? He is connected to various organizations for high risk teens and goes to some of the groups, where the other kids tend to behave similarly to him. My son admits being angry with us, but blames it on us having moved to Israel when he was young. I know he was bullied in school here many years ago, which must have been a trauma for him. (Have often wondered if this was the trauma?) He still hates this boy who teased him, and will probably never forgive him. But I don’t think he forgives us either, since we put him in the school where this occurred. I think in his mind, he feels betrayed by everyone, his school, his friends and his parents. And since we are all religious, he has concluded unfortunately that religion itself has betrayed him.

smc- You might be right that things will improve after he works through this depression, but I’m not sure something traumatic always has to precipitate going OTD. It could be a combination of the strictness of the yeshiva system, a few insensitive Rebbes (an oxymoron, right?) and the child’s sensitivity or personality. We unfortunately keep them in that system bc we may not know that our child is suffering. Also, we can’t leave out the hand of Hashem. I have seen my son make some significant moves to improve his life, putting in tremendous effort…and then getting knocked down by things beyond our control. It has become more clear to me that Hashem has hand picked these scenarios in order to guide my son through a journey meant specifically for him. Although they are disappointing and painful, I believe that after all my tefilla, (and even without it) hakol l’tova. B’ezrat Hashem, we hope to see better days….and nachas.

Thank-you all for your concern and advice regarding my son. Hard to believe that people are still following this painful saga of my life after all this time. What can I say? I am still hopeful that there will be a happy ending to this story. Yes, I heard of Rabbi Fishoff. He was recommended to me by one of the posters and we did speak a number of times. My husband and I were divided on how to deal with my son, so it didn’t work out for us. For Twisted Parenting to work, both parents have to be on board.

At this point, as much as I am hoping my son will be religious one day, the goal for us has changed. We want to see him healthy and successful in his life. Some things have improved, and some things have stayed the same. Overcoming the initial shock of all this was the most difficult. Now we have come to accept certain things and have adapted accordingly. We have ‘good’ days and ‘bad’ days which are mostly determined by his mood. He has still refused help, although he has accepted sporadic intervention.

Believe it or not, it’s still unclear to me as to why all this happened. Your points Observer 36 are pretty perceptive. You are right about certain things being unacceptable in the yeshivish world, and perhaps that is why my son won’t forgive anyone…including his parents for putting him there. Being that he is legally an adult, he needs to choose his direction in life. This is still pretty difficult for him, although he has made some great strides lately. We are cautiously optimistic.

Keep davening for him. Hashem can do anything.

MyTurnAtBat-thanks for all the great advice. We are definitely not the same parents we were 2 years ago when this whole thing got started, and we definitely have different expectations at this point. B’ezrat Hashem, we are still hoping and praying that we’ll merit a yeshua.

sm29-you are right!

Satmer101-So glad to hear your story had a happy ending! I see that in addition to all your hishtadlus, you had a lot of Siyata D’shmaya. I will keep your suggestions in mind, and B’Ezrat Hashem, I pray we too will see a yeshua.

MyTurnAtBat-I try not to bring up the subject bc I don’t want to take a chance at unleashing his defenses, since even without me voicing my opinion, he knows what it is. But I think he believes in G-d and that the Torah is emet! Not sure what he wants to do with his life.

The Goq-No matter what, he’ll always be my son, and I’ll always love him.

crgo-Thanks for your thoughts. It’s still a struggle, I have more boys that need to be placed in yeshiva and it’s a constant battle. Mashiach hasn’t come yet, so people are oftentimes very judgemental. The only thing I can say is I’m not shocked anymore, but it does still hurt. The only way to live with it is to know that everything is from Hashem, the seemingly bad and the good. I just pray that I will one day see that it was all l’tova…

SaysMe-keep davening!

dial427436-thanks for your well wishes

zahavasdad-not sure

MachaaMaker-You’re right, but it’s a vicious circle. We try to get him small jobs and focus a lot on his talents, which are many! Maybe as he sees his friends ‘move on’ with their life, he will be motivated as well. Today’s the day to daven for it……

Zahavasdad-it’s not like he didn’t try to get a job…and it’s a bit more extreme than just jeans and t-shirt with long hair, but I get your point. The bottom line is, I don’t think he is capable right now of doing anything responsible, like getting up on time or to be at a job on time until he gets counseling.

Yeshiahack- I did that a long time ago (uncontrollably) and it did not have the desired effect. He will just disconnect. We do get him small jobs periodically with some of my husband’s friends, but it doesn’t heal him. If he had something steady that he enjoys and wants, then maybe he’d be more motivated to stick with it, and go to counseling to work out any issues that are blocking him from continuing.

smc-I don’t really have anything new to say. My son seems to be lingering in his situation without making any healthy changes. I believe he really isn’t capable of making any changes on his own and needs someone to help him. He’s still so involved with his friends. We make suggestions and have offered tons of help, but he rejects everything. I know that the yeshua is not going to come from me and my husband. I just pray that Hashem will send the right shaliach, and am wondering…what is taking the shaliach so long to arrive?????

Thanks for asking…

Hudi, smc, shirafirst, Syag Lchochma, SaysMe: Thanks to all of you who are still thinking of me and my son. Every time I come to the coffee room and see that it says I started this post a year ago, I know that in about a month, it will suddenly say ‘2 years ago’. It was 2 years ago around Pesach time that this painful saga began. I actually can’t believe that I am still in this parasha, and was certain that things were going to resolve itself a few months after it all began. Boy was I wrong!

My son is now 18, and still very much OTD. He is connected with various agencies, although he is not committed to counseling in any serious sort of way. He is trying to finish school, although he is inconsistent in his efforts, and continues to hang out with an undesirable crowd. As for me and my husband, the only progress I think we’ve made, is that we are past the shock of all this, although we have been tested many times over with various new things my son does. My husband and I are in counseling, but I can’t say that my husband and I are in perfect agreement in how to deal with this situation. This is still a struggle for us. We continue to suffer ostracism from various people in our community, not to mention the terrible time we’ve had trying to get our other boys into yeshiva. I am almost reluctant to say this, since it is not a compliment to our Torah community that we judge a boy’s potential by his OTD brother. To refuse to interview a boy bc his brother is OTD is unforgiveable! But I mention this in the hope that, if there are any RY’s reading this post, they should make sure they are not guilty of this shameful crime.

I thank all of you in the coffee room who gave me your time and sage advice, and helped me to survive the most painful period of my life. May we never know of any more pain, and may we all merit to receive our yeshua and be blessed with good health and nachas from all of our children…

smc- maybe you’re right in a way, but he’s so closed. And even though he’s had options to get help, he only minimally follows through with them. You’d think he wants help with his pain, but he’s set up so many barriers at this point that it’s very hard to reach him.

hudi-I certainly hope you’re right!

Syag Lchochma-I think just being a teenager instills a rebellious nature! Just hope it isn’t permanent.

smc-funny you should ask, you must have Ruach Hakodesh. My son went back to school (not yeshiva) although we are happy that he is taking some steps to improve his life. He has a goal now to finish HS and get his diploma, and G-d willing we hope he will continue to pick up the pieces of his life. He still hangs out with the wrong crowd, but the truth is, unfortunately, they are the only ‘crowd’ who accepts him in our neighborhood. On the other hand, there have been many shlichim along the way who made contact with our son and still do, and we are hopeful that he will eventually see that the religious are not ‘so bad’ after all. He is still pretty far from religion, with only sporadic sparks of connection. I pray that we will see more but we still have a long road ahead of us…

Thanks for asking.

SaysMe-Thanks!

Wallflower-I’m not so sure that’s true. I live in a Charedi community, and unfortunately, I could name at least 20 kids off the top of my head who are OTD, wearing jeans…and worse. None of their parents are sitting shiva.

There should be a distinction between being “off the derech” and being “off my derech”. They are not the same.

Shanifirst-No he hasn’t. I’ve learned that his going OTD was not a religious choice, but a response to trauma. He needs to heal first, and then maybe one day, b’ezras Hashem, he will come back. Still davening, hoping, crying.

Thanks for asking..

a mamin- Thank-you so much! You too should have a Happy and Healthy New Year, and a Gmar Chatima Tova!

May we all see yeshuos in the new year and may there be an end to all the suffering for all Am Yisrael!

smc-I don’t think my son is enjoying going to counseling, but he is trying to help himself. The indicator will be when the counseling ‘gets tough’, will he stick it out? I hope so.

Vogue-we are trying to be warm and supportive, but he does still have a lot of anger and isn’t easy to live with. Taking it one day at a time…

zahvasdad- sorry to hear about your friend’s spouse. I’m not familiar with anti-kiruv organizations, but I do know that there are a number of marriages that are just falling apart over here from various nisayonos that people just aren’t passing. There are terrible tests these days, not just for teenagers, but also for grown adults. I pray we all pass our tests, so that we’ll have the z’chus to greet Mashiach. Your friend should go speak to a Rav for chizuk and advice. Maybe someone close to her can reach her before things get worse…