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  • in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181699
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    thethinker3-just as an aside, I’m reminded of shevet Levi when the Jews were in Mitzrayim. They were the only tribe to maintain their sanctity and Jewish identity. This is attributed to the fact that they didn’t take on the ways of the Mitzrim ie wear the clothes of the Mitzrim (jeans?). So, there is something to be said about not mingling with the predominating culture..

    zahavasdad- I would never imply that someone not haredi is a rasha. You are right about making the distinction between hashkafa and halacha. Yet even though I might be able to close my eyes/ears to the music and movies he’s watching, I don’t think I could get used to the idea of jeans. I was thinking about this lately, wondering why it bothers me so much, and I realized that it’s not just the haredi world where jeans are unacceptable. There are well known companies/places where jeans are not part of the dress code and are considered inappropriate attire. Yet no one is making a fuss about it. And depending upon your position in a particular work situation, the higher the status, the more inappropriate jeans becomes. The connotation is a sloppy and unprofessional look. I’m sure the president of IBM doesn’t wear jeans. And if he is only representing IBM, look who WE represent!!

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181697
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    thethinker3-when I read your post, it made a lot of sense. However, I don’t think I am painting the goyishe influence as schmutz, or lacking anything worthwhile. In fact, some of the goyishe music may sound nice, especially classical. My point is merely that it comes from a non Jewish source and has an influence on us. Secular and goyishe movies typically have messages extremely antithetical to Torah (immorality is standard), despite extreme pritzus. I guess, perhaps, there are 2 ways one can choose to live as a Jew. One, is to reject all non Jewish influence, and immerse oneself completely into Judaism, untainted. The other is to mingle with the goyishe culture, and pray you stay a Jew. The risk of the second choice, is to lose your sense of who you are and what your purpose is, not to mention, marrying out of the religion. In a State where one’s marriage partner can be of any gender, where marriage isn’t sacred, and basically “anything goes”, I choose to raise my children in a Jewish bubble as much as possible. If my children do get exposed to goyishe influences as they grow older, I’m hoping that the ‘sense’ of Judaism will prevail. I’m not forbidding the exposure at this point with my teenage son, but I wouldn’t encourage it as part of their chinuch. I’m hoping that, as you say, he will be able to ‘incorporate the best of mainstream culture’ without losing his Jewish identity. Unfortunately, however, he is being exposed to the worst of mainstream culture and I’m not sure where it will lead..

    Bilbo-point taken.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181693
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    Bilbo-of course I want my son to be happy, but does that mean there shouldn’t be any rules? I am trying ‘non religious’ benign ways of reaching out to him, and I hope you are right, that some of this rebelliousness is adolescent related.

    Thanks anIsraeliYid.

    Sam2-I always appreciate suggestions..keep them coming. You never know which one will click..

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181688
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    DaasYochid-you are right. I checked it out, and it’s not something I would recommend to my son

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181685
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    Sam2-thanks for the suggestion, I will mention it to him.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181684
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    mom12-you are so right. And yes, the only thing left is tefillah…

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181680
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    yitzyshalom-I understand what you’re saying, however the Torah tells us not to follow the ways of the goyim, to put fences around our mitzvos, and to listen to the Rabbonim. What Rav would give a heter to go to a bar? Or watch filth? Or to steal?? I’m sorry to say, that a goyishe version of judaism, or an Americanized version may be the only ‘palatable’ judaism for some people, but it is a modified/distorted version of the original. Perhaps it’s better than nothing at all, but I wouldn’t raise my children to think this is judaism. People who put themselves at risk hanging out in bars, yet calling themselves religious, are setting themselves up for failure! After a few drinks, who knows what could happen? They are mingling with goyim, and people who give in to immorality and indecency. A Torah Jew doesn’t belong in a place like that, regardless of whether they’re haredi or not. You have to ask yourself, what’s the reason for the Torah in the first place? Isn’t it to set aside a nation of people who will be different from the rest, a people who will live a life of morality and decency, ethics, and honesty etc amidst a world filled with just the opposite? We are not supposed be like the rest of the world, so why should we blend right in? Yet it sounds like you believe we should ‘do what the Romans do’ bc it’s fun, and our kids want fun too. I agree with some of your points, about perhaps the haredim focusing on certain external things as THE measure of observance, when a person who doesn’t want to conform, could be just as machmeer in their mitzvos, and as close to Hashem. But in my opinion, in general, it is the haredi way that is the closest to getting it right…

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181671
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    M.O. Chossid- I can’t give too much detail, but my son doesn’t hate ‘Rabbonim’, it’s the haredim as a group he hates. Growing up in a haredi world, where he wasn’t exposed to anything secular, who else could he get upset with? Had he grown up secular, he might have also gone through negative experiences as a child, with different ‘players’. But bc he doesn’t think about it, he makes it a ‘haredi’ issue. The emotional abuse he went through in yeshiva from the boys is not a haredi issue, but a universal issue that (some) kids go through in all secular schools as well. My husband and I talk to him a lot, and we are not pushing anything on him. He is calling all the shots in terms of what he’s going to do, I’m just trying to clarify his options for him, and help him to look more long term, so that he sees there are consequences to whichever path he’ll choose. As much as I would like him to consider a yeshiva for next year, even the more relaxed yeshivas may not be an option at this point, bc just the mention of the word ‘yeshiva’ gives him such a bad feeling. However, I do appreciate any recommendations from everyone, and give everything over to my husband to look into it. Keep them coming!

    mom12- I hear you! It’s so upsetting when mistakes are made in the yeshiva system, the consequences can be horrendous. But my husband always tells me, there’s no perfection in the secular world, so why do I expect it in the religious world? Perhaps bc the consequences can be grave! What happened to teaching each kid al pi darko?

    Kids will always find fault with their parents, and a certain amount of rebellion is natural. However, we as observant parents, are in such a precarious situation, bc at a moment’s notice, any (natural) conflict or disappointment can be perceived as a ‘religious issue’ by our children. May Hashem help us all…

    yitzyshalom-try asking the moderator what happened?

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181657
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    Participant

    mom12-I’ve said all the things you mentioned. He knows that I can’t ‘not care’ about where he is, or what he’s doing, or just ‘leave him alone’. When I ask him what’s bothering him, he tells me point blank, that he hates the haredim. He feels betrayed by the kids who tortured him in yeshiva, and the RY who ‘never believed’ in him. The RY is very srict and punitive, and unfortunately, he lost a lot of yeshiva bachurim bc of it. There are only a half dozen boys left in my son’s class from a class of 28 kids. My son also blames me and my husband for being haredi and putting him in a haredi school. Reasoning doesn’t work with him, as he sees all these things that happened to him as a ‘haredi’ issue.

    yitzyshalom-I appreciate your comments, and agree with you to a certain extent, and about looking for a modern yeshiva. However, I don’t think that haredi judaism is a cult or medieval. Can a person really be completely immersed in secular music/videos and go to BARS, yet be a religious Jew 100% ?? Maybe (MAYBE) on the outside (ie mitzvos), but not on the inside. I don’t believe it for a second! I remember when I lived in the States, and I lived as a haredi Jew. I lived in a haredi neighborhood, and was completely immersed in my haredi life. Then I moved to Israel, to another haredi neighborhood. I didn’t feel any difference…until I came back to NY. Then I felt a HUGE difference. How could it be, I wondered? I wasn’t any different. That’s what I thought. But I WAS different, bc even subtle changes like living in Eretz Hakodesh can have an influence that we don’t see. I’m positive that immoral movies and music with goyishe ideology also has its influence. You may not see it. Or some people may think they’re ‘above it’. But it’s there nonetheless. If my son gives in to all these goyishe things, I can only hope he’ll be a shomer shabbos Jew. I wouldn’t expect him to be haredi. And that would be okay! But the problem is, it’s even hard to stay a shomer shabbos Jew when all the images, themes and philosophy he’s been feeding himself are antithetical to everything Torahdik, and especially being a shomer shabbos Jew.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181653
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    I think I might have ruined everything. I don’t think I’m going to be able to pass my side of the ‘test’. Friday night, my son was out with his chevra (late), and they were across the street. They were making a spectacle of themselves. It wasn’t my son who was yelling, cursing, and throwing things, but he was with them. I just couldn’t fathom how my son felt like he belonged there. My heart was breaking in two. He came home really late, later than he said. I told him last night that I can’t accept it anymore. He’s destroying me and his father. I told him he can’t do stuff like this right under our noses and expect us not to have any reaction. We each went back and forth with different ‘threats’, and I just don’t know what’s going to happen. He’s not in a good place right now..and neither am I

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181651
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    Participant

    mom12-I love your mother’s advice! You seem to be pretty clear in your approach to your son, which is good. And it seems to have ‘rubbed off’ on him, since he does have some ambition and a goal. I’m not sure I’m always so consistent with my son. But from what you’ve said, and some of the other posts, it appears that I really do have to be strong enough to hold back, and give my son time, space and acceptance so that hopefully he’ll be able to find his way back. I pray that we will both see success!

    Have a Good Shabbos…

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181649
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    Participant

    mom12-don’t underestimate the power of secular music. Your son giving that up is a HUGE thing!!. Kol hakavod to him!! The secular music kids listen to is filled with immorality and curses, and I’m sure it pulls them deeper and deeper to a place of tumah that’s very hard to leave. And yes, Baruch Hashem he davens! I remember I used to make an issue out of my son going late to shacharis on Shabbos, now he doesn’t go at all. Your son sounds mature, and you seem to have a good relationship with him, since he was able to accept your advice. Hopefully, things will keep getting better and better for both of you!!

    At what age did it start to get better? Do you think that age is THE factor, or was it something else?

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181647
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    mom12- so I just have to pretend that everything is okay, just smile and play ‘stupid’? Not sure I’d be able to get the suspicion out of my ‘smile’..

    BTGuy-good to know that many settle down with time..

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181644
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    anna-d-I did contact MASK, and we have spoken with someone in our neighborhood, as well as a Rav. I’m glad things are better for you, keep me posted with any advice/ideas.

    BTGuy- it’s good that you have the awareness and sensitivity to help such kids. Do you find that you are able to give them enough to hold them over until they become adults and can find their own way? Do they succeed?

    I have a question for anyone who might have a good answer. What do you do if you suspect that your teen is lying to you/hiding something? Let’s say you questioned them, and they deny anything. Do you let it go? I was advised to believe my child no matter what, even if I think they are lying. Any opinions?

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181640
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    mom12-Everything you said is true, I can’t see me ever disowning my child, chas v’shalom. I just pray he will get himself to a ‘good’ place. Thank-you so much for the info, I will look into it.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181638
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    BTGuy-very interesting, so then those kids are doomed? What is the solution for those kids? Any real educator should be able to identify areas of strength and weakness in a student, and address them properly in order for that child to learn. Some kids might need extra help, some might need more space, but I think the main problem in the yeshiva system is that intense pressure is put on all kids to perform and to learn many hours, regardless of their tolerance and ability. It’s a ‘one size fits all’ mentality for a wide variety of kids, and I don’t think it works. To make things worse, many Rebbes are perhaps, very knowledgeable in Torah, but are poor educators. There really should be more options..

    Thanks so much mom12. Hatzlacha to you too!

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181635
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    mom12-do they have a website?

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181634
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    mom12-that’s strange bc on previous posts, I was given names of Rabbis and organizations that might help. Maybe the mods were reading it out of context and thought you were giving me your contact info. Maybe try posting it again explaining that the “yeshiva in Israel that might be of help is…”. If it doesn’t go through, then I don’t know…

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181630
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    mom12-I agree with your plan, and hopefully your son will gain a love of learning, which I think is key. Keep posting on your progress.

    Did you find out the name of that Rabbi in Israel?

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181629
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    M.O. Chossid- You make a good point, that the teenage years naturally include rebellion to a certain extent, and that some of it is normal. But I wouldn’t call drug/alcohol abuse a natural part of growing up. Perhaps ‘testing the waters’ has some degree of normalcy, but who’s to say it will end at that, especially if someone feels angry, depressed, and rejected by his peers? I’m afraid the risk is higher for real damage. I only wish it were a phase he were going through, and hopefully some of it is. Perhaps if he made a connection with better kids, who aren’t black and white, it would help bring him to a better place. Maybe after a year or so, like you said, his anger will lessen, and he will able to see everything with a clearer head and with less pain. You said if I just let him do the things he needs to do, and that I’m 100% okay with it, he’ll remain a Ben Torah. But he needs to listen to the worst songs, watch bad movies, and hang with kids who walk around with a laptop, exposing him to the worst stuff. I’m 0% with it (wouldn’t any parent be?), and he knows it. Like you said, I am trying not to push any agenda on him, giving him time and space. Hopefully, that’s all he needs…

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181623
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    daniela-my son isn’t doing anything yet overtly, except by hanging out with this fringe group of kids on Shabbos. I’m not happy with his language/songs he sings in the house, but he is trying to be more respectful. I try to talk to my son about safety issues and health, and I can only hope that he doesn’t get into any kind of real trouble, chas’v’shalom. The real issue affecting my other kids right now is essentially my fault. I am so preoccupied with my son that I have less patience for them, and am probably giving him much more attention. I have to work on this. I’m trying to keep my other kids busy, so they don’t have so much interaction with my son, and hopefully they won’t be adversely affected, B’ezrat Hashem

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181618
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    justThink-you are right, it’s just that I don’t really have a connection to the modern community. Communities here are pretty separate, and even if there were some modern families in the neighborhood, for some reason, that’s not the type of kids my son would connect to right now. He feels comfortable with the angry kids who are rejecting yiddishkeit. So sad.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181615
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    Thanks mom12.

    Wishing everyone a Good Shabbos…..

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181613
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    pcoz-good suggestion, trying to find neutral activities that are fun. Just hope he’ll go along.

    mom12- I need something in Israel.

    chance-I agree, leaving religion is not something that happens suddenly. Hopefully ,my son will never eat treif.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181609
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    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181608
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    mom12-thanks for commenting. I have mixed feelings about these types of yeshivas. On the one hand, maybe my son would like it better bc it’s low/no pressure. On the other hand, he doesn’t come from a dysfunctional family B’H, and part of me feels he doesn’t belong there. Maybe I’m wrong to think this way. Some of the kids he hangs out with in the street come from high risk families, and they have little to no relationship with their parents. I always thought perhaps, part of the solution would be for him to connect with a ‘successful’ yeshiva kid. I’m also afraid of exposing him to the few things he hasn’t done yet. If there was a yeshiva for kids who are struggling with the system, who need space and yet support, I’d be very interested. I just hope he would be too…

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181606
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    MDG-I’ve told him that movies aren’t real life and that he’s better off watching cartoons so that he wouldn’t make the mistake of thinking it’s real. But you can’t tell a teenager anything. They think they know better.

    I hope I’ll pass the test.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181604
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    MDG-I hear you, and I think he’s had ‘those talks’ with his father.

    Shira-thank-you for all your suggestions. As far as computers go, the chevra he hangs out with walks around with a laptop and grab other people’s signals, so he does have access to internet, although not through me. I know he’s already seen the worst, and I have no idea what he has on his MP4 or USB. I really liked your suggestion of asking him what he would do if he were in my shoes, and had a kid who was disobeying house rules. I can’t imagine throwing him out, although I’m afraid he may try to test me and see how far he can push me.

    I hope my son will consider a low pressure yeshiva, but things are too uncertain at this point. Thank you for your blessings, it gave me chizuk.

    in reply to: I'm sure it was an oversight #878013
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    Goq-when someone’s feelings are hurt, it’s not trivial. And we can all relate to having had our feelings hurt at some time in our life…

    in reply to: I'm sure it was an oversight #878011
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    Goq-anyone in your situation would feel badly being excluded, even if it was an oversight. Oversights hurt just as much sometimes as something done deliberately. Is there anyone in the office you are close to who you could confide in? Even if you got invited and decided not to go, I think someone should speak to the baal simcha and let them know that they erred in not inviting you. It doesn’t matter if it was an oversight or not, if they ‘like you or not’, if everyone is included except you, then it was a hurtful thing to do and they should be told, l’toeles.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181600
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    2scents-I never thought you were mocking me, I appreciate your comments. Give more!

    OhTeeDee-I guess depending upon your hashkafa, seeing secular movies may be okay. But when you grow up without the secular influence, then it makes it harder to fit in to the secular world. By spending hours on the computer watching these movies, it is helping to prepare him for living that kind of life. He is ‘educating’ himself to be secular, and that’s why I don’t want my kids to see them. I can already see the changes, the language, expressions, the hashkafa. But you are right, there are worse things outside that are readily available. It’s just that movies stay with you forever, just like songs. Once it’s in your head, you can never get it out. It’s like when Adam and Chava tasted the forbidden fruit, the consequences were irreversible. I was hoping my son would not put himself into this situation, as now his nisayonos will be more difficult to pass. But I hope as he matures, he will come back to his religion.

    MDG-If Rabbi Kelleman is correct, and I assume that he is, then perhaps the positive emotions between my son and my husband should also surface, as there were many. Tefillah was the negative emotion that probably stayed wih my son. But there were happy times too. My husband was advised to do small things for my son, without too much dialogue at this point. Give small items my son enjoys, or pick up some things for him on the way home, in order to show his love in a non-threatening way. I’m hoping it will help to restore the trust, like you said. Thanks for your input.

    interjection-I agree with you completely.

    daniela-he hasn’t done those things yet, but they are in the planning…with an earring! He’s said that he plans to get jeans, change his style of clothes, his hair cut etc. He is just trying to finish the year in yeshiva, and I am dreading that time. Every day he reminds me that he is not going next year to yeshiva, what he will do instead, I don’t know yet and neither does he. Even now as he tries to ‘finish the year’, he goes late, and doesn’t care about doing well on any of his tests. I’m trying to get him to make some kind of plan, learn a trade if not Torah, go to college. He knows that I won’t accept sleeping all day ’til evening, and then staying out all night with the chevra. But he may just challenge me and do exactly that to see if I will throw him out of the house. G-d help me.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181593
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    MDG-wow! You seem incredibly perceptive, you might have just touched on something. I do remember years ago, my husband would complain about my son not staying in the shul for all the tefillah, or not praying, or not sitting near him. I told him to just focus on the positive, and forget anything negative. It got to the point where my son didn’t want to daven in his Shul anymore. Then sometimes, they’d argue about it at home. Do you think this could be part of the problem? But my husband is not really the demanding type. I think he just expected that my son should do what other kids his age were doing. He’s always been loving to the kids.

    I agree with you that he doesn’t feel he can accomplish, and has poor self esteem. But this doesn’t blend with the fact that we have always believed in our son, recognizing his amazing talents, intelligence etc. We have always been so verbal about how great we think he is, and it’s sincere. How come he didn’t hear it?

    msseeker-as much as I would never want to endanger my other children, chas v’shalom, I’m sure that throwing my son out of the house would guarantee that he would never come back to the derech. I’m still hoping that he feels that we love him and believe in him. We may very well be his only positive connection to yiddishkeit, and by throwing him out, I’m afraid it would be severed.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181590
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    zahavasdad-is the blank supposed to be Hashem? I think it takes a lot of maturity to make that kind of distinction, and teenagers don’t have it yet.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181588
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    pcoz-yes, I’ve heard that too, so I do pray for all the other kids in our neighborhood, and some of my friends’ kids as well who are in a similar situation as my son. May Hashem help us all.

    interjection-I hope you are right. He is judging Judaism by the Jews, and unfortunately, he has been hurt by many of them. I hope that he will hear my love the loudest.

    Thanks to all of you for your posts.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181587
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    mom12-it would be a great idea to spend some positive time together, but he never seems interested. He doesn’t have a job bc he is trying to finish his last year in Yeshiva. He told me that he is only doing this to ‘make me happy’, since he doesn’t plan to continue next year, and isn’t religious anymore. My husband keeps hoping that something will ‘click’, and he’ll get back on track. But he has no motivation and seems to be only going through the motions. I spoke to him about learning a trade or going to college, but he doesn’t feel he will ‘fit in’, and would probably just spend his days sleeping late, and hanging out with his chevra until late hours. When he comes home from Yeshiva, he uses the computer and doesn’t really want to do anything else. I even have to beg him to eat. It’s his escape.

    He tries to stay away from the chevra during the week, but on Shabbos, he’s a different kid and he spends all his time with these street boys. He’s changing right before my eyes, and after every Shabbos, it’s a little bit worse. His language is terrible, and he is very chutzpadik to my husband.

    2scents-I do fully love my son, with all my heart. But I do not accept his choice. Does that mean I don’t accept him? I don’t know, I hope not. I accept that he is having difficulties right now, so I don’t hold him to the same standards as my other children. I can’t imagine ever throwing my son out of his house. That’s what I’ve always felt. But the past few days, he’s been so difficult, cursing and exposing my kids to the secular movies he’s watching on the computer, that I don’t know what to do. I’ve told him to keep his language kosher, and the movies to himself. So he said, “and if I don’t, what are you going to do, throw me out?” I said “I don’t know what I’m going to do, and I hope you don’t put me in this position”. He is also fighting a great deal with my husband, and I don’t know for how long I can be the buffer.

    Like you mentioned, I do try to make his favorite cakes, have his clothes neatly prepared, and try to give him the message that I love him and am happy to take care of him. I just hope he hears that message.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181581
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    MDG-thanks for the good idea!

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181578
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    mom12-I know what you mean. My son does the same, saying he’ll come in 10 minutes and then coming many hours later. I can only imagine how painful it is to wake up and see your son hasn’t come home yet. I feel that I am not so far away from you, and don’t know if I will be able to handle much more. I also read Tehillim every day, I hope it will help both of us

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181577
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    pcoz-you are right, and I do try. But he is either not home, or so preoccupied with the computer, that it’s hard to do this. I am relying on the fact that we have always had a good relationship, and am hoping that it carries some weight. I am trying to insert various things into his life to make him happy, ie making his favorite things. I’m just afraid that it’s not getting any better, and bc of all the time he spent with his chevra on Shavuos, it’s actually worse..

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181574
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    mom12 and thehock- thanks for your perceptive input.

    mom12-please give me more advice. What has helped you and what hasn’t. It’s so hard to watch him go out the door, not knowing where he is or when he’s coming home. Friday night, I asked him to please try to be home before midnight, but he wasn’t home until 2am. The anguish is so hard to bear. I can’t sleep, I watch the clock, and look out the window, hoping I’ll see him coming home. I do listen to him when he speaks, it’s just that he’s not home that much, and when he is,he’s on the computer.

    How are things with your son now? I’m so sorry, you must also be suffering…

    thehock-I agree with you that this thread has turned to one of ‘blame the parents’. There seems to be so much anger toward parents when kids decide to go OTD. The unfortunate thing is, that OTD kids assume that bc something negative happened to them in school, or in their life, religion is to blame. And the parents are ultimately responsible bc they put them into this ‘religious situation’ in the first place. However, they don’t realize, that if they had grown up secular, there are also negative experiences in school and in life. It has nothing to do with being religious. exlakewooder is right on ONE point. If I think that my belief system is based on fact (and I do), then it will be nearly impossible for me to make peace with my son’s choice.

    I can’t respond right now to all the OTD members who want to vent their anger at me, perhaps thehock or some others can…

    in reply to: migraine help #877166
    write or wrong
    Participant

    Consider the treatment to be threefold, with the ‘sleeping’ just as important as the ‘Motrin and coffee’, and you should be able to ward off most migraines. Good Shabbos-Chag Sameach!

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181568
    write or wrong
    Participant

    daniela-the RY and the community have not made any suggestions to us, and I would welcome some support on their part since they know us, and my son.

    I attribute most of his ‘insensitive’ behavior to a lack of maturity, although there is a bit of chutzpah, as with most teens these days. However, I agree with you that good middos and derech eretz are most important. We are working on that.

    As far as school goes, he was the victim of emotional and verbal abuse, which can leave a scar just like physical abuse. And yes, he was an excellent kid, as all the Rebbes always told us. It’s just that there was a terrible oversight on their part. And my son did tell us, and we went to the school to address it.

    When I said I wouldn’t complain if he threw out a jacket I bought him, I meant that I’d prefer he’d throw out clothes than yiddishkeit.

    Good Shabbos and Chag Sameach…

    in reply to: migraine help #877158
    write or wrong
    Participant

    Having suffered from migraines for many years, this is my advice: If you want to avoid prescription drugs, you have to take 1-2 advils and a (strong) cup of caffeinated coffee at the FIRST onset of a headache. Then, and this is the crucial part, you HAVE to lie down and try to SLEEP. If you can, there is a good chance you just warded off a migraine. If this doesn’t work, the only solution is prescription meds, like imitrex or fioricet. Whenever I get a migraine, I take a pill, lie down in a dark, quiet room with an ice pack on my head and try to sleep. I never took imitrex, but have taken fioricet for many years, sometimes with codeine if the pain is unbearable. Unfortunately, it’s not working for me anymore (probably I’ve been taking it for too long), so I’m in the process of looking for a different med.

    If you haven’t yet gone to the doctor for your headaches, it is the FIRST thing you must do. How do you know they’re migraines and not sinus headaches, or something else?

    Also if you get migraines, you have to pay attention to what triggers them, like: skipping breakfast, too much caffeine (including chocolate, coffee and soda), a fan blowing on your face etc.

    Hatzlacha, and feel good!

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181565
    write or wrong
    Participant

    OhTeeDee-it’s not as simple as you make it. It’s not a matter of leaving the status and labels. Judaism is not something superficial, external or ‘on the surface’ like a jacket, that you can take off if you’re too hot, or a tattoo that you can remove. It is an intrinsic identity we are born with and die with. Where we differ is in the belief of how a Jew should live. The Torah tells us we have to go by the mitzvos.

    You used the terminology, ‘non-practicing’. Doesn’t that mean a Jew who stopped practicing? There must have been something in the first place to practice if a person chose to stop doing it. Go back to Har Sinai (perfect timing) and see that the Jews were all once living as Jews. Anything else, is a diversion from that truth.

    And how can you be considered a ‘good’ person who’s not practicing unless you have a definition of what’s good? Who defines what’s good? Ask 1000 different people, and you will get 1000 different answers.

    If my son were throwing out a jacket I bought him, I wouldn’t complain. But I see it as him leaving “who he is” for something he thinks he wants to be. A person may leave the mitzvot, but they cannot break the covenant we have with Hashem. I believe the Torah is emes, and to see my son seek a life of sheker, hurts me terribly.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181558
    write or wrong
    Participant

    EH-thanks

    daniela-we don’t really have someplace to send him, and anyway he’d never go.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181555
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    Participant

    Daniela-I don’t think he’d be thanking me, bc it’s only after having gone through this negative experience in his yeshiva, can he say that I shouldn’t have put him there. If I had put him somewhere else, he may have had complaints about that yeshiva too (although not as harsh). I probably couldn’t have ‘won’ either way.

    I don’t know how I am going to manage this Shabbos and Shavuos. He’s already preparing me that he won’t be home,bc he’s going to be with his ‘friends’. I’m trying to get him to set limits, but he won’t. I’m really dreading this weekend…

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181552
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    Participant

    OhTeeDee-Maybe he will get to the point of being more respectful of our derech as he becomes more sure of his own derech. But until then , it’s not easy.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181550
    write or wrong
    Participant

    OhTeeDee/LLL/EH-thanks for your advice. Some of the suggestions make a lot of sense, even though they are hard to do.

    EH-About Shabbos. Mostly, he just doesn’t want to be home, but we don’t like that he’s out all day/night with his chevra, and we usually let him know this. What I meant was, should we just keep quiet and let him go without saying anything? Everything we do feels like pressure to him and I don’t want to add to his pressure. Yet, staying out ’til after 1am and missing the seudas (and of course, all the tefillas) bothers us terribly. Not knowing where he is all day and night just ruins any peace I could possibly feel on Shabbos. And now, this weekend is also Shavous. I just don’t know how I’ll be able to handle it.

    I do try to set limits with some of the melachas on Shabbos, but he really doesn’t care too much, and is becoming more lax, even in front of his siblings, which bothers me. If I say anything, he just doesn’t ‘hear’ me, or he’ll get angry.

    LLL_where was your Rebbe when all that was happening to you? It’s true that kids can be cruel, religious or not. It just seems to be a stage they go through on their way to maturity. I feel terrible to hear how they tortured you like that, kids just don’t know how much pain they can cause someone. It must be so hard to heal from something like that. What helped you?

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181547
    write or wrong
    Participant

    daniela-I’m sure his reaction is purely emotional, and he doesn’t really mean to disrespect us. But in his eyes, we did do something wrong. We didn’t protect him from the abuse. Even though we didn’t know, emotions aren’t really logical.

    OhTeeDee-I am trying very hard to be supportive.

    I’m not sure that the Jewish religion has always created rifts between and among it’s people. It’s just that no one’s perfect, not the Jews and not the non-Jews, not the religious and not the non-religious. People are imperfect. It’s just that we hold the religious to a higher standard, so it’s more upsetting when they get it wrong. And even though my heart is breaking over what my son went through, I don’t see it as a bad reflection on all religious Jews, just on his RY and his particular yeshiva.

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181545
    write or wrong
    Participant

    EH-you sound so knowledgeable. How is it that you seem to know the right approach to take? Do you know kids who went through verbal bullying/emotional abuse and came back to the derech? I actually wrote down your words so I can remember them the next time I start to despair again, which is usually a few times a day, or more.

    The other thing that came up in our conversation was being with his chevra on Shabbos. He said that he can’t stand everone putting restrictions on him, including the RY, the Rebbes, and me. He wants to be able to be with who he wants on Shabbos without any questions or time limits. He says that he’s doing everything the RY wants him to do, even though he doesn’t want to do any of it. In light of this, do you think I should back down and leave him alone to do what he wants on Shabbos?

    in reply to: Going off the Derech #1181540
    write or wrong
    Participant

    OMG! I just read the article on this website about Rav Ovadia’s reaction to the yeshiva bachur who took his life. How horribly tragic! Thank G-d Rav Ovadia is speaking out. Hopefully more Rabbonim will follow…

    Hopefully it’s not too late…

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