UPDATED 2:05 (EST) President & First Lady Bush have arrived and the ceremony is underway.
UPDATE 1:14PM (EST) Virginia Tech’s Lane Stadium has been opened to the overflow crowd from the shooting memorial event set to begin at 2:00PM at Tech’s Cassell Coliseum.
UPDATE 12:31PM (EST) The South Korean gunman who killed 32 people and himself at Virginia Tech university had lived legally in the United States with his parents for 14 years, a U.S. immigration official said on Tuesday.
UPDATE 12:29PM (EST) Law enforcement sources have now described the note, which runs several pages, as beginning in the present tense and then shifting to the past tense. It contains rhetoric explaining Cho’s actions and says, “You caused me to do this,” the sources told ABC News.
UPDATE 12:27PM (EST) Sources tell ABC News that Cho killed two people in a dorm room, returned to his own dorm room where he re-armed and left a “disturbing note,” then went to a classroom building on the other side of campus to continue his rampage.
UPDATE 11:37AM (EST) Results of ballistic tests conducted at a federal lab in Maryland overnight confirmed that the same weapon was used in both on campus shooting events on Monday, a detail that proves they incidents were related.
UPDATE 10:22AM (EST) President Bush planned to travel Tuesday to speak at Virginia Tech at 2:00PM. He and first lady Laura Bush will attend a campus convocation “as representatives of the entire nation.”
UPDATE 10:19AM (EST) Expressing the nation’s sorrow, President Bush ordered flags flown at half staff in honor of those killed in the nation’s deadliest shooting spree.
UPDATE 9:40AM (EST) The deceased shooter in yesterday’s Virginia Tech massacre as Cho Seung-Hui, 23, a South Korean native in U.S. as a resident alien. His residency was in Centreville and he was staying at the Harper residence hall on Tech’s campus. Sources say he left behind a disturbing note and had a receipt for a handgun. At this time, police are not looking for a second shooter, however, they do not rule out the possibility that an accomplice may have been involved.
UPDATE 9:38AM (EST) “The only thing that we know about him is that he was a loner and we are having difficulty finding information” about him, university spokesman Larry Hincker said. Authorities said they are not releasing names of the victims until all have been identified.
UPDATE 9:11AM (EST) The second shootings started as police were questioning a male associate of a female victim of the first shooting.
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37 Responses
so an visiting alien has no trouble purchasing a handgun and keeping it in his dorm.
Braov american gun lobby!
so an visiting alien has no trouble purchasing a handgun and keeping it in his dorm.
Braov american gun lobby!
He was a RESIDENT alien. Meaning, he had a green card. He lived in the US for 14 years.
This has nothing to do with guns, or gun lobbies. It has to do with one deranged individual. Guns are just the way he chose to do his damage. If he had chosen to steal a truck and smash it into groups of people, would you be blaming GM? If he had chosen to set fire to a dorm building with a lighter, would you be up in arms against Bic?
The one common denominator is, if other people had guns, they could’ve stopped him from shooting people, crashing a truck into people or setting a fire.
to ALTER BACHUR: of all the idiotic comments I have read on YW, yours wins the first prize!! Your solution is to arm everyone so they can stop one demented animal!! that is brilliant!!
to YW editors: how can you allow such idiotic comments to be spewed on your otherwise fabulous site??
‘,,,,,it has to do with a deranged indivdual’
It says ‘lifnei eever lo titain michshol’
Unfortunately there are a lot of DERANGED individuals out there, There is no need to supply them with ammunition.,,,,,,,
Even if other people are in possesion of guns, who says they have them on hand when they need them? You need ONE nutcase to go on a shooting spree while others are unarmed and he succeeds just as well!
I hear your point about Bic and GM……..but honeslty when was the last time you heard a killer use a truck as a murder weapon??
To Alter Bachur: Yes, “Der Yid” would probably blame GM and Bic. Left wing morons tend to blame the item rather than the human. It is easier. As to your last point, you couldn’t be more on target. If only some sane normal people would carry legal guns, carnages like this would be minimized.
I agree with Alter Bachur. In New York State it is legal for anyone to purchase Mace or Pepper Spray and carry concealed on their person. It is an incident like this which is moving me closer to purchasing one. And yes, the gun control laws have only taken away guns from law abiding citizens. The criminals will get them no matter what! What is needed is a federal data bank to be designed that all purchasers and gun owners must have their personal data entered into with their fingerprints that includes an ID card. Then the data should be transferred to the FBI and CIA. It would put the control with the government and keep everyone safer. And let’s bring back the death penalty in New York State and make sure it is used every where else!
of all the idiotic comments I have read on YW, yours wins the first prize!! Your solution is to arm everyone so they can stop one demented animal!! that is brilliant!!
First off, thank you for your support and for your thoughtful comment.
Secondly, I never advocated arming everyone. I do advocate allowing responsible people who choose to carry firearms to be permitted to do so. But you know what, It’s not only me, the US Constitution does the same thing. My comment was directed at someone who chose to blame guns and the gun lobby, not the individual committing the crime. There is nothing we can do to guard ourselves against a crazed person committed to injuring others. If he wouldn’t use a gun, he’d find another way.
Why wasn’t he apprehended after the 1st attack? There was a 2 hour time span in between. Had they gotten him right away, it would have been bad but not the worst in history. I am sorry for the families of those that were shot and especially the family of the Professor who gave his life to save his whole class.
“I hear your point about Bic and GM……..but honeslty when was the last time you heard a killer use a truck as a murder weapon??”
re TRUCK: Oklahoma City Federal Building, WTC the forst attack in 1993…
re BIC: Seton Hall University a few years ago, yesterday in Illinois…
need I go on.
nameless – sorry for jumping after you gave complimented one of my previous posts (thank you), but it would have been dishonest of me not to point out these issues.
A few comments:
gezintumenucho,
I read and reread your comment and I still can’t find the arguement in there.
Alter B.,
Right on!
The idea that guns kill people is absurd. The only thing that would have stopped this madman from killing all those people would have been another gun in the hands of a sane person.
Town Crier:
As long as there is a real possibility that someone can enter a dorm from the outside and shoot it up, I would not advocate the removal of all legal guns from the campus.
Md levine……..
Stopping guns are still more conceivable than stopping vehicles or lighters, come on!
Not to mention that they are still more of a threat but thanks for pointing out the rest and yes feel free to go on,,,,,,,lol!
The compliment? my pleaseure!
Lkwd Guy: I suggest you RE read my comment for you to have a clear havono of my meaning…furthermore, who will be the final decisor of what a “sane” person is?? hopefully not you nor alter bochur!!!!!!
nnzs
“The item rather than the Human”
Lets rephraize that:
The “חפצה” rather than the “גברה
lkwdguy says;
‘The only thing that would have stopped this madman from killing people would have been another gun in the hands of a sane person’
Whats your point? That he might have just accomplished to kill 22 instead of 32????? WOW…thats a relief!!!
How about considering the fact that had he not had gun to begin with there would have been no carnage whatsoever!
To say that he would have chosen the alternatives mentioned in a previous post is pure speculation!
Why is it so hard for people to understand that the less oppertunity one has to commit a crime, the safer it is for all!
To PotatoeKugel:
You need not be a Brisker to understand my comments. But, OK……
Why is it so hard for people to understand that the less oppertunity one has to commit a crime, the safer it is for all!
I agree. Meaning, that if a decent law-abiding citizen saw a madman start shooting indiscriminately and saw it fit to place a bullet between his eyes, he would have had much less of an opportunity to commit a crime.
There are two factors related to this tragedy that bears being highlighted here:
1- We have to educate ourselves and those around us. This killer had all the signs of potential criminality. “Loner”, “troubled”, “did not respond when greeted”, explosive anger in his writings… THESE ARE ALL WARNING SIGNS. Pay attention if you know someone like this and report it. It really is better to be safe than sorry.
2- Can someone please explain this? When a shooting takes place on campus, why did it take TWO HOURS for authorities to inform students about this? Especially when the perpetrator had not yet been apprehended! Students were given little or no chance do what they can to protect themselves. Those in charge should be held accountable for this.
And to address the whole gun issue. It is NOT the gun that’s responsible, it’s the person holding that gun who is. Even if gun laws were to be put in place, those who want guns will get them.
You cant stop human madness and I really dont want to be faced with the challenge!
Personally , I prefer to see a madman WITHOUT a gun than one WITH a gun to begin with. But ofcourse, feel free to disagree!
nnuts, to be fair, he may have had all the signs but we only see that in 20/20 hindsight. The person who sees his angry writing is probably not the same person who noticed that he didn’t respond when greeted, etc. etc.
As to your second point, it seems the police thought that the shooter had left the campus after the first shooting. They thought the shooter was a different person.
I agree about the whole gun issue.
To: nnzs
You werent enough מדייק in the spelling of my name
its PotatoKugel
NOT NOT NOT PotatoeKugel !!
How does a TOE get into PotatoKugel ?? !!!!
GOOD דיוק AHHHH!!!!
There was a racist shooting in Belgium last year. Now its almost impossible to purchase a rifle without a proper license which his difficult to get in any case!
Rodef Shalom, you’re absolutely right about the 20/20 phenomenon. But I think we don’t give ourselves enough credit. His roommates both admitted that he was a loner and shunned interaction with others. He reacted strangely to normal events. He had zero friends, with roommates who roomed with him for at least a year but knew practically nothing about him but got “creeped out” by his moods and demeanor. He was also referred by staff for counseling after they read his writings. We just need to pay attention, that’s all.
Second, the fact that authorities could not immediately find this man should have been a real clue to them that he’s probably just another student on campus mixing easily with the rest of the student population. How could they presume the shooter was no longer on site?? Talk about tunnel vision!
Gun control – I don’t know.
Derech Eretz – I struggle to show it. A few would make this site even better than it already is if you, too, would stop the name calling. I love the teasing, but cut out the insults.
To blame the police is confusing me? How can police predict behavior that has little to no precedent? Should they cancel classes? Ok. Then he returns to a different dorm and we’ll yell at the police for over reacting. “They should have let life go on as normal. It was because they cancelled classes that this guy saw how much attention he got and he went back to kill more.” The second guessing is a bit too easy.
Me thinketh that Jews should teach their children and give the public our voice of being BIG supporters of law enforcement. I’m aware of corruption, but they are part of (yes, the teva of) what allows us to live so safely in this medina shel chesed.
I am a frum, shomre shabbos individual and have a CCW License. (Carry Concealed Weapons permit). I don’t leave home without my gun. I carry it concealed, according to my state laws, everywhere I go, to minyin, the grocery store, work, EVERYWHERE. Unfortunately there are so many crazy people, you need to protect yourself and your family and you never know where you will chas vesholom need it. I daven every day to NEVER have to take my weapon out and use it, but make no doubt about it, if I have to choose between myself or a crazy gunman, I won’t hesitate for a minute.
Guns are not for everyone and having even law-abiding citizens carrying guns is not the answer either. There is a lack of respect and religion in this country. NOTHING is sacred. Criminals are not held accountable for their crimes and the justice department is a joke. When I was in 6th grade our rebbi took us to a courthouse when we started baba metzia as a field trip. The judge told us privately “this is not real law or justice. The studies you learn in school (yeshiva) are the real laws. This is a joke” I’ll never forget his words. So sad.
‘……its no the GUN thats responsible, its the person holding the gun who is’
Did you ever hear the expression ‘joint effort’??? True, guns do not go off alone.However, fortunatley people cant KILL with water pistols either!!!!
Your second point is;
‘Even if gun laws were to be put in place, those who want guns will get them’
What are you saying exactly???? ‘lets not BOTHER making it more difficult for the ‘insane’ to attain weapons, because they MIGHT find them otherwise?????
BRILLIANT!!!!!
Chickenman;
I stand to be corrected, but i am assuming that you do not have a heter to carry that gun on Shabbos.
What happens if Chas vishoelem, some wacko decides to go on a shooting binge and it happens to be on Shabbos?? IS your intial reaction ‘Gosh, if only I had my gun,…….or is it more like ‘For heaven’s sakes, why are guns so accessible?’
Assuming it happened on a day when you indeed had your gun, do you see anything sensible about a shooting match where even MORE innocent civillians can get caught between the gunfire??? Is it not more logical to do OUR best just to prevent people in general fromhaving guns??
To PotatoKugel:
My apologies on the name. Please check, “rephrase” NOT NOT NOT “rephraize”
You will never prevent a criminal from doing what they do and you will never rid the world of hate and senseless acts of terror. I would go as far as to say there is currently no system in place of even limiting their actions or controlling their bad deeds. The only protective action is to make sure you don’t come to a gunfight empty handed. I am not asking or requiring people to start carrying guns, however I do for myself what I feel is necessary to protect myself and my family in this crazy world we live in. I am not driving around town looking of criminals, that is not my job nor do I care to do that, it is simply for personal protection. In a past statement someone said sarcastically “what a relief if only 22 people got killed instead of 32”. So that would be 10 more families that don’t have to deal with the horror of losing a son, daughter, husband or wife. If the result of me going to shooting ranges and taking gun safety courses can potentially save the life of even one individual, it makes the hassle of carrying my firearm worth it. When you get this permit (at least where I live) you have to take classes on gun safety and lessons on when you have the right to fire upon someone. Owning the gun and being permitted to carry it is a HUGE responsibility one takes upon them. Most important is common sense (which is not so common).
I response to” Assuming it happened on a day when you indeed had your gun, do you see anything sensible about a shooting match where even MORE innocent civilians can get caught between the gunfire???” If I was in that class and he came in shooting and used my weapon to try and stop him from killing everyone, either I would succeed in stopping the aggressor and the killing would stop, or I would not and he would kill everyone anyways. Which version would you prefer?
What happens if Chas vishoelem, some wacko decides to go on a shooting binge and it happens to be on Shabbos?? IS your intial reaction ‘Gosh, if only I had my gun,…….or is it more like ‘For heaven’s sakes, why are guns so accessible?’
“gosh i wish i had my gun”. YOU WILL NEVER REMOVE ILLEGALLY PURCHASED GUNS OFF THE STREET!!! NEVER!!
Lastly, you mentioned about my carrying on shabbos. I never said anything about shabbos nor do I care to. Don’t assume: Assumption is the mother of all mistakes.
‘YOU WILL NEVER REMOVE ILLEGALLY PURCHASED GUNS OFF THE STREET!!!!! Never!!!!!
…………….OOPS
‘ASSUMPTIONS ARE THE MOTHER OF ALL MISTAKES’
We can certainly do our UTMOST to make sure that the world is a safer place and NO guns are NOT the answer, ‘tempting ‘ criminals are not the answer and saying that our action against violence is limited , therfore we shouldnt try, is like saying its ok to be lax on your health cos we are all gona die anyways……..
now DOES THAT SOUND REASONABLE?,,,?????
accolades to gezintandmenucha
your understanding of the problem at hand is amazing
surprised how other uneducated readers give “narishe” opinions
bacci…
The number of citizens shooting up people is far outweighed by criminals. If he wanted to buy a gun and was turned down at first, he could have purchased it on the street. I don’t know why a non-citizen was even able to purchase a handgun. To arm college students is the last thing that should be done. Even with the permit to carry you still can’t take your firearm on campus or near any school. Some of the laws they have about restricting permit holders to entering some buildings and other areas are just ridiculous. Some states go as far as to have business owners, schools and such, who don’t want carrying permit holders entering while carrying a concealed weapon, to post signs on the door way asking them not to enter. This is just ludicrous. It is an invitation to would be thieves.
i never said we should’t try. i said “there is currently no system in place of even limiting their actions or controlling their bad deeds.” the justice dept. is a joke. there is very little punishment, if any, for crimes and when there is, it takes years to follow through and most of the time they are back on the streets farely quickly.
being lax on health is a quality of life issue. if we are all gonna die then yes, we should be lax on our health because whats the point. if we want to live a pleasant life where we can enjoy our families and living in general then we take care of ourselves.
BOGOTANERYID: thank you for your intelligent response…btw what does bogotaner mean?
Chickenman;
So let me get this straight…you see absolutley NO downside for even a law abiding citizen to easily be able to purchase a handgun…… (even with permit and training etc. etc.)
Of course there is a downside to anyone having a gun. Even law-enforcement officers sometimes make a mistake. But that shouldn’t stop me from being able to protect myself. The criminal will ALWAYS have access to guns, even if they are banned in the whole country. If a few law-abiding citizens go crazy and buy guns legally to kill people with them they probably would have bought them illegally anyways. I don’t like to think that way but who knows? To stop all legal gun sales is not the answer.
Monseyguy made a great point about the two hour delay. How about that the first notification went out on e-mail? How many of you carry around Blackberrys or other handheld devices? Who checks e-mail 24/7? One of the big problems with that campus is that there was no public address system. Could you believe it? For a couple of thousand dollars they could have saved some lives. Incidentally, Virginia has one of the best gun ownership laws on the books with excellent tracking system and a good justice system. Their legislature has in the passed vetoed any measure that would have allowed a student to carry a concealed weapon. But, I did hear on one of the radio talk shows how a host had received an e-mail from a friend of hers, a U.S. Marine vet. He e-mailed her that anyone with a gun with some tactical training could have taken this guy out.
‘what does ‘bogotaner’ mean?’
um, I would imagine that means a Yid from BOGOTA, Columbia!