A major machlokes is brewing in Bnei Brak after HaGaon HaRav Chaim Kanievsky Shlita called to oust the avreichim who did not adhere to the words of HaGaon HaRav Aaron Yehuda Leib Shteinman Shlita, voting for the Bnei Torah party. Rav Kanievsky is adamant in his decision, unwilling to tolerate the brazen attitude of those who ignored the gadol hador.
However, leading roshei yeshivos in the Degel Hatorah camp are opposed, seeking to receive a pardon for the avreichim for these roshei yeshiva feel ousting them is far too harsh a move, adding it is a matter of דיני נפשות.
Since Rav Chaim announced his position on erev Shabbos Chayei Sarah 5774, leading roshei yeshiva have been pleading their case. This list includes Rav Baruch Weisbeker (Rosh Yeshivas Matisyahu), Rav Moshe Hillel Hirsch (Rosh Yeshivas Slobodka), Rav Yehoshua Eichenstein (Rosh Yeshivas Yad Aaron), and Rav Yigal Rozen.
Kikar Shabbat reports these roshei yeshiva and others will be meeting in Rav Shteinman’s home today in the hope of reversing the decision.
(YWN – Israel Desk, Jerusalem)
Nobody knows who voted for whom in the secret ballot, so this is all theoretical and Rav Chaim does not mean it in practice as it is impossible to even know.
The only way they would know would be if anyone was shooting their mouths off about whom they voted for.
Am I the only one who thinks this is absurd?
What happens if the other person happens to have held like Rav Shmuel Auerbach? What is one supposed to do.
not only should they be thrown out of yeshiva they should be forced t ogo t othe army
Those holding of R Shmul shlit”a can go learn in Kol Torah i assume
“What happens if the other person happens to have held like Rav Shmuel Auerbach? What is one supposed to do.”
Perhaps he should go to a kollel for which his Rabbi takes acharayus.
#3 everyone must listen to what ever their rebbi says, but when the godol haddor says something that differs from your rebbi you must listen to the godol haddor
According to several news reports, bnei Torah are to be required to sign a loyalty oath stating that they have total regret for having disobeyed the Gedolim and will never allow HaPeles into their homes, otherwise they’ll get fired from their kollelim or teaching jobs.
The Sefer Ya’aros Dvash (R’ Yonasan Eibeshutz) writes that the test of a machlokes l’shem Shamayim is whether the parties to the machlokes treat each other with total love and respect, apart from the specific matters under dispute.
The question is: What period of Jewish History are we in? It looks like we’re being told to have more Kavod HaRav. I can’t disagree with that. I think we should be looking at Rabbi Kanievsky as an Eliyahu HaNavi for our generation (he and his wife help/helped many many people above and beyond any normal person’s expectations). Given that he’s like an Eliyahu of our times; we should just start listening and see what happens. Especially if you’ve ever benefited from him in any way. It’s not an accident if you contacted him and asked him for help. HaKaros HaTov in such a case.
if you can explain why the talmudic principle of eilu ve’eilu does not appliy, i am all ears.
We should all daven that this harsch gzeirah be revoked. These avreichim need our tfilose.
Are they saying that Shas, Brisk, and the Eida HaChareidis (not to mention Belz, Ger, Vizhnitz, etc. etc.) have to stop listening to their leaders and listen only to the Degel HaTorah Gadol HaDor? What’s different between their leaders and R’ Shmuel Auerbach?
Why are the Talamadim being punish ?.The Talamadim followed the word of their Rebbe,if anyone wants to punish anyone, they should punish the Rabbe that told the Talamadim who to vote for.
Something doesn’t make sense here.
When did we vote for who is “the” Gadol Hador ?
What if somebody has a different opinion on who is the Gadol Hador ?
What if somebody feels that there is no Gadol Hador but rather a bunch of equal Tzadikim ?
Why not forget about people altogether and just raise robots? No one is allowed to think anymore? All these things do is make people not listen to Rabbonim on important things. They just diminish themselves by these positions. It’s a shame that we’ve sunk so low.
I’ve seen nasty disgusting behaviors in politics, but nothing like i’ve seen from Chareidim in elections since making aliyah. It’s really heartbreaking to see. We should expect and get better than this.
All we need is R’ Shmuel Auerbach to say anyone who voted for Degel should be kicked out of their yeshivos, and Aryeh Deri should say that R’ Ovadiah came to him in a dream and ruled that anyone who didn’t vote for Shas should be out of yeshiva.
בס”ד ט”ז חשון תשע”ד משה קבל… ומסרוה… 3325 שנים ב.צ. אליאך
During these last few days, even for those who do not get involved with politics and the goings on to do with the upcoming elections; could not help but feel pain due to the brewing of a Machlokes. Those of us who never doubted the authenticity of the clear rulings and guidance of our generation’s elders; could not fathom how, from amongst us, could sprout out a group of those who attempt to undermine just that. We could almost feel the earth shaking under our feet.
The historical gathering
Then came the unexpected: the announcements of a historical gathering to take place right here in Yerushalayim; for which our generation’s elders themselves were going to exert themselves and come all the way from B’ne B’rak to participate in. Many felt that they certainly should come and participate if only for a few moments. Many others, who could not make it, were there at heart. Others were unsure if they should take the time to participate, especially if they do not need any convincing of whom to vote for and they aren’t the type to involve themselves with these kinds of events. This was especially the case for many who are not Israeli citizens and therefore can not vote. But then again, we thought, perhaps we should participate just for the sake of honoring the Torah. And so I and many others like myself decided to go, if only for a few minutes…
I would like to share with you the impressions which I went home with; impressions which will probably and hopefully remain with me forever. And yes, I remained until the end of the event.
Motzai Shabbos, the 16th of Cheshvon 5774
When I arrived, the outside area surrounding the Tamir Halls was already overcrowded with people. The doors were already closed and only Rabbanim were allowed entry. Loudspeakers were placed throughout the surrounding streets as well as a few large screens showing the event taking place within. I don’t know numbers but it can be assumed that many thousands participated. On the screen we watched as the dais filled up with the distinguished faces of our Roshei Hayeshivos and Mashgichim; each one being a Torah giant in his own right. Most of them are probably in their upper seventies or eighties. My heart began to warm up from the love pouring forth from the faces of these Gedolim; and the pain in my heart began to heal.
The chain – 3325
Amongst those that were called upon to speak was one of today’s older giants in Torah and Mussar, beloved by all, the Rosh Hayeshivah of Mir in Brachfeld, Harav Hagaon R’ Aryeh Finkel. I’ve been looking up to and observing this great personality for over seventeen years. It is out of place for me to write extensive praise. I will just mention the following point. Fortunately, I have participated in the T’fillos of Yomim Nora’im in very close proximity of R’ Aryeh for the past sixteen years, during which I would observe from close by how this great individual, with awesome humility, acts literally as the representative and mediator for K’lal Yisroel; just as the Kohen Gadol on Yom Kippur and, perhaps, as Moshe Rabeinu. R’ Aryeh continues his Avodas Yomim Hanora’im all year round. This is my personal testimony. Not to be mistaken; his serving Hashem all year round as during the Yomim Nora’im does not contradict his conduct with people, on the contrary, that is part of the Avoda. One can just melt from his sweetness and love.
This giant, Harav Hagaon R’ Aryeh Finkel stood up and spoke about the direct chain of the M’sirus Hatorah – the giving over of the Torah, from Moshe Rabeinu to Yehoshua and so forth from the leader of a generation to the next leader. He continued with an amazing concept that he had heard numerous times from the great R’ Chaim Shmuelevitz z”l. How is it decided when one era has come to its conclusion and a new era has begun? Who decided when the period of Rishonim ended and the period of Achronim has begun? The answer is that K’lal Yisroel has a ‘sense of smell’; K’lal Yisroel decides. With this R’ Aryeh went on to say that K’lal Yisroel senses who is the Manhig Hador – the ultimate leader of the generation. He elaborated on this point and proclaimed very clearly that the Manhig Hador is Moreinu Harav Shteinman and with him Harav Hagaon R’ Chaim Kanievsky. My intention is not to relay what was spoken; rather, to share with you, as much as possible, the impressions which I received. Here I have seen with my own eyes and heard with my own ears how a great Torah leader in his own right humbles himself to accept the authority of the Manhig Hador.
The same exact thing, I saw and felt when Harav Hagaon R’ Yitzchok Ezrachi (Mir, Yerushalayim) spoke, as well as by each and everyone that was called upon to speak; each one a Gadol in his own right; each one humbling himself in order to accept the authority of a single leader. Each one in his own unique way described how the Torah was passed down from Har Sinai; from Moshe to Yehoshua and so forth up until this very day; for 3325 and a half years.
The honor of the Torah
Upon the greatly anticipated arrival of the elderly leader of the generation, Moreinu Harav R’ Ahron Leib Shteinman, the entire gathering began to sing ‘Yomim…’ Watching on the large screen outside, I could not help but take notice how the great Rabbanim along the dais were singing along and clapping their hands like small school children in honor of the living Sefer Torah; what utter humility! This repeated itself three minutes later with the appearance of Harav Hagaon R’ Chaim Kanievsky.
At this point Harav Hagaon R’ Moshe Chodosh, Rosh Yeshivas Or Elchonon, was called upon to lead the entire gathering with T’hillim together with the leaders of the generation. I can not properly describe the feeling of saying T’hillim alongside thousands of people together with the ‘Chofetz Chaim’ of our generation.
After a befitting introduction Moreinu Harav R’ Ahron Leib Shteinman, Manhig Hador, spoke with clear and firm words with absolute responsibility to guide the entire nation in that which the utmost important matters depend on. With great clarity and a heart overflowing with love for Hashem and for all of Hashem’s children, us; our great leader set the guidelines for the present matter. He then concluded with a B’rachah that Kiddush Shem Shamayim should come through us, and then all of K’lal Yisroel will have everything good, and we will be worthy of the ultimate Ge’ulah very soon.
Once again, I can not properly describe the feeling; I can just say that all who participated in this gathering were fortunate to see and hear the ‘Chofetz Chaim’ of our generation; as he spoke to all of us, and for all of us.
Then Harav Hagaon R’ Chaim Kanievsky had Harav R’ Eliyohu Mann speak for him; who in turn, spoke exactly as R’ Chaim had dictated. Aside for stating very firmly and clearly the decision regarding the matter at hand including its ramifications; the main thrust of this speech was, as with the speeches of all the Rabbanim which spoke earlier, to strengthen the absolute authority and leadership of Moreinu Harav R’ Ahron Leib Shteinman. Once again, we have seen absolute humility of a foremost Torah Giant, as he accepts upon himself the authority of the elderly leader; who carries on his century-old shoulders the burden of the generation.
The event was concluded by Harav Hagaon R’ Boruch Mordechai Ezrachi, Rosh Yeshivas Ateres Yisroel, who is known besides for greatness in Torah, but also as a gifted orator. In his great wisdom, he did not elaborate at all; rather, he called upon the gathering to join him in his speech by standing on their feet. He then requested of us to take a good look at who is seated before us. Then, as though it was on the blowing of the Shofar, he began, with Sheim Umalchus, the B’rachah of ‘Shecholak Me’chachmaso L’yere’av. “That was my whole speech. More than that is unnecessary; for all is included, therein. However, it could not be less than that.”
Closer to Har Sinai
I have seen before my very eyes the direct continuation of a 3325 year long chain, with its first link hooked on to Har Sinai; a chain to which we will continue clinging until the imminent arrival of Moshiach. I am embarrassed to admit that I have never before felt so close to Ma’amad Har Sinai as I do now, and I’m elated and thankful to Hashem for giving me this opportunity to truly feel as though… I was at Ma’amad Har Sinai.
BarryLS1: Welcome to our land! Permit me to clue you in a bit on what is happening: certain individuals, not in any way affiliated with Rabbi Shmuel Aurbach, but rather people who have been making trouble with Rabbi Shteinman for the past few years (ask around, they have a name for their group) have decided to vote against Gimmel because they do not like Gimmel. There is no great philosphical discussion here, rather rebellious youth.
(As I heard one shout in shul “Who made these the Gedolim that they title themselves Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah!? Who are they?” – I’d rather not repeat things, but won’t I do for a landman so in the dark…)
Rabbi Chaim Kaievsky is very pained by their chutzpah. He feels that these people’s decision is not legitimate. Would you consider talking to one of those ‘charedim’ about what is going on before posting?
To #19.let’s say you have ALL the facts,any rav, rebe and chacham,that has trouble makers around them must announce in public that these trouble makers have NOTHING TO DO WITH THEM.Just as Moshe Rabeinu said after the AGAL ‘who is to Hashem come …..”
Someone please tell me this is all a surreal bubba -meisse that never happened..
Rabbis referred to as “Gedolai Hador” wanting to throw people out of a yeshiva because of politics. Posters here explaining, defending, draying a lomdishe kupp, blah, blah …. but no one seeing this as travesty of Torah. Elections, politics, honor, sinaah, machlokes, etc.
Am I the only one here screaming ” The emperor has no clothes”
Question: How is a ‘Godol” defined in our days?
It used to be about his learning yes, but also his standing with his fellow Jews and his influence, especially if he was able to inspire without necessarily having a mass following.It was about his humility and empathy for all Jews.
Seems that today it’s more about how many sycophants, shleppers, troublemakers,making-themselves-important machers and various & sundry nudniks are around him.
Yup, it’s Ikveseh D’Moshiach.
“” I was at Ma’amad Har Sinai.””
So was I. Especially the second one, the one whose luchos and Torah remained intact unlike the first one. As I recall, there was at this most important and everlasting maamad, no hooplah,no hullabaloo, vo videos, no kowtowing.
since when does daas torah mean people must vote according to what the rabbonim say? Or are we totally like the taliban now?
#16 BarryLS….Alas, we are in a generation where hynotized robots have run amok. I have confidence however, there are still people like and me out there but don’t necessarily post their views.
I’m sure that there are many dati yeshivot that would welcome all the expellees.
Thank you Lechvod Shomayim #18.
lebidik yankel says: I was speaking in general terms, not just this specific situation. From what i’ve seen, i’m appauld at the nasty, dishonest and disguating behavior by Chareidim. They are supposed to be better than that, or should stop claiming to represent Torah.
Yeh, I know, most Chareidim are very good people, but…..