Eretz Yisroel – The economic crisis impacts many areas of our day-to-day lives, including the cost of finding an appropriate shidduch for sons and daughters. According to the daily Yisrael HaYom, economic realities have compelled setting a ceiling for shidduchim as well, up to $40,000 for a choson and up to $25,000 for a kalah.
According to the report, quoting chareidi journalist Shlomo Septiner, parents are generally expected to cover an apartment and in some cases, a vehicle. “We are talking about tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars”, with the report explaining one seeking a shidduch with yichus and a choson from a prestigious yeshiva must pay accordingly.
A number of individuals in Bnei Brak turned to Maran Rav Shteinman Shlita for assistance, leading to the establishment of a vaad which reportedly set guidelines. The document stipulates that chassanim and kallos in Eretz Yisrael will not exceed the sums mentioned earlier in the article, which the organizers feel is a major breakthrough.
One chareidi askan wishing to remain anonymous stated this attempts to change something “deeply engrained in the chareidi genetics, for good and for bad. The good bochrim will not readily relinquish that which they feel is coming to them”.
Adding to the report, Kol Chai Radio adds that the maximum one can ask for an apartment is NIS 500,000, explaining the impetus for the new limitations comes from the Ponovitz Beis Medresh, with many askanim and avreichim realizing limits must be set due to current realities. Rav Yudkovsky explains Rav Shteinman Shlita has refrained from signing his name for two years, until he felt the tzibur is ready to listen to the new guidelines.
(Yechiel Spira – YWN Israel)
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34 Responses
The cost of a printed kesubah and a ring that is kosher for use as a kiddushin is perhaps a few hundred dollars (much less depending on how you hold by the ring – but the minhag is gold but that’s not halacha). The seudah needs ten males, but if you add families, you need food for a few dozen.
Anything else is extravagence.
The good bochrim will not readily relinquish that which they feel is coming to them”.
THIS SOUNDS LIKE THE “ENTITLEMENT PERSONALITY”, is this the chinuch of a good bochur?. What does the average or not so average bochur have in mind?
An APT. & a VEHICLE!?!, what about a kosher blackberry and an expense paid trip during ben hazamanim?
40 000 dollars they belive is coming to them???!!! These are top bocherim? Is this why I have israeli mishulachim at my door all hours of the day?
This doesn’t make sense. Is this shadchanis fees?
The good bochrim will not readily relinquish that which they feel is coming to them”.
A Bachur who thinks things are comming to him is not a good bachur. He is full of Gavah, and just as the Torah was given in the midbar on Har Sinia to represent the need for humbelness in order to aquire Torah, these bachruim who make demands of “what is coming to them” usually don’t amount to to much.
even this is very high for most families. the practice of selling off our children needs to stop!!!
Please explain this to me, the non-chareidi – this $40,000 for a chatan, and $25,000 for a kalah – who gets this money? The shadchan? The other family? Is this a dowry of some sort? And this is on top of buying an apartment? I honestly don’t understand who gets what here.
I must be doing something wrong. When I got married no one bought me an apartment. We are going on 5 years now and still rent.
$65,000 is the limit? How are we even going to come up with that much?
A kallah is worth just as much as a bochur!! They should both be the same amount!!Why feed fodder to the chilonim who will make a leitzanus of chareidim? Why should charedi Jewish girls feel they are worth less! If it is true that by supporting a bochur in learning means that his spouse gets an equal share in Olam Haba-then the spouse-who toils day and night to bring in the money, bears the children and maintains the home, should have an equal “price tag”. Does this sit well with all of the girls’ teachers who read this forum?
“The good bochrim will not readily relinquish that which they feel is coming to them.”
Something doesn’t seem right here. Young men who have no realistic prospect for earning a living, and who think that they are entitled to substantial support, are not “good Bochurim” in my book. I hate to burst their bubble, but these young men need to wake up and smell the coffee: especially in this economic climate, young men who are Bnei Torah, are Koveiah Itim, and have realistic plans to honor their Kesubah are the good Bochurim who I would expect to be in the most demand.
WHAAAAT??? $25,000 and $40,000 just to FIND the boy and girl??????? That’s out and out insanity.(and by the way, why is a boy worth more than a girl?) That money should be used to go towards the wedding and to start their lives together!!!!!!!!
Making a shidduch is a Mitzvah. Yes – a person should be paid for the work but most people don’t make those astronomical amounts in a year, let alone pay a shadchan that amount. Give me a break. If this is the ceiling to FIND the zivug, what’s the “ceiling” for the lechayim, vort, wedding, sheva brochos, apartment/house, furnishings, and of course all the jewelry and watches etc. that “MUST” be given? If you have to pay the Shadchin those amounts, there’s no money left for the rest – if there was even enough to pay the Shadchin.
If people in the parsha realize that their parents can’t afford these ridiculous amount, one of two things can happen. They will go out and find their own shidduch which is not the best thing or we will have a bigger shidduch crisis than we already have.
By the way, what was the cost before this “ceiling”????????
What happens when families have 10 or more children?
ain l’daver sof.
“The good bochrim will not readily relinquish that which they feel is coming to them” – do they want a kallah or Bnez? Aren’t they willing to live with bread and salt? What are they being groomed for?
I fully understand the value of boys/men learning full time (actually since I am still on earth, and may I stay here, in good health, until 120 years, I fully do not understand the value – but I understand it is important, to say the least) – I go to the Kollel nightly and reap the benefits.
But somethings about the chareidi I do not understand – it just seems weird.
For those who misunderstood the article, I do not believe it is discussing Shadchanus.
A few additional points:
1. Money is a Shochad, and distorts the Bochur’s priorities.
2. Girls from wealthy families are often spoiled and difficult to please. Once one of these so-called “good Bochurim” marry one of these girls, I wish them a lot of Hatzlacha in Shalom Bayis – they’re going to need it.
3. Those who rely on their Shver for support should not be surprised if he thinks he owns them.
It seems that every yeshiva boy thinks that the world owes him a living, the thing is that it doesn’t. Its time for people to learn a trade and get a job, or learn to live on very little.
Much of the Haradi yeshiva community is poor and deep in debt, maybe its time to go back to a $50 ring and a wedding in the parents living room, if thats what the parents can afford.
I’m beginning to think that it is I who misunderstood the article, and that the $25,000/$40,000 is indeed referring to Shadchanus. If so, the insanity is even worse than I imagined: parents are expected to pay $40,000 for some arrogant Bochur, who will then be kind enough to give them the “privilege” of spending another NIS 500,000 on his apartment. Too bad they no longer have the privilege of spending more!
OKAY EVERYONE COME DOWN. this is the societies norm in Israel. A dowry isn’t such an unheard of phenomenon in years past. the ‘better bochurim’ we are referring to are the ones we hope to become the next big rabbi’s of our future generation. We are trying to keep as learned as possible. the same way a parent or inlaw see’s no problem investing in med school in the upwards of hundreds of thousands of dollars bec , well, as a doctor he will make a nice return someday, so to we hope to breed the next generation of R’Elyashuvs and R’Steinmans. its really up to the girls parents in what they deem appropriate to invest in having a gadol for a son in law.
Agreed with most of the others.
As for me, I didn’t expect or get anything. My wife has some money in an account for us to buy an apartment when we want (that will probably not be in Yerushalaim – right now we happily rent in Yerushalaim: it’s nice to live here for a few years, but we will never be able to afford buying here).
Look at what has become of the “Yeshiva World.”
It seems to me that once limits are imposed, they should get rid of all extravagance (i.e. put the limits at only a few thousand dollars)
Why does it take an economic crisis to get rid of this insanity?
I was a bocher, learning in a well known yeshiva in Yerushalayim in 1975. One of the maggidei shiur, the father of ten children, was marrying off yet another daughter. The rosh yeshiva called all the American bochrim into a small room to explain to them the necessity of us writing to chaveirim in America to raise money for this maggid shiur. It seems he could only buy an apartment in Meah Shearim for his daughter and her chossen, and that would cost a fortune. I had the chutzpah to ask why, and was told that if he bought an apartment anywhere else he would be blackballed from further shidduchim among “his own kind”. That made me sick, and I didn’t make any attempt to raise money to lend support for such a sick system.
We all know I have my issues with the Chareidi mishagassin, but this article is alarmist and not factual.
NO ONE gets a vehicle, in fact, the good boys in EY don’t drive, it’s forbidden by the Rosh Yeshivos.
And the demans for full apartments has gone down drastically in recent years, due to the economic realities. Only a few people still demand it, and sometimes receive it.
But I have no rachmonus on the parents who give a full dirah. They don’t have the guts to say, “I can afford the following, I won’t go into deep debt for my sons or daughters apartment, and that’s it.”
I have never yet seen someone who really loves to learn leavr learning because he had no money. I don’t mean the guys who “like” to learn while the bills are being paid, I mean the yechidei segula who really love it and will survive on close to nothing just to learn, and if they need to teach a little to survive, will still continue learning more than any guy sitting on his shver’s paycheck.
I’ll take a guy like that for my daughter any day, and I will never take a guy who demands what he doesn’t deserve, or what’s not even good for his shteiging.
But I have guts, I won’t collapse if my sonin-law goes to work, part or fulltime. As long as he is a mensch and learns as much as he can, I’m happy.
Oh, and I learned in Brisk (AY) and kollel for ten years, (supporting myself the last five).
Amd B”H I can afford to buy my kids diras, but I won’t because I think it’s poor chinuch, and not conducive to real shteiging.
I believe the Ribono shel Olam will send my daughters the shidduchim they deserve without my doing the unethical thing.
Ah bissel bitachon, Rabbosai! Let’s not forget, we officially believe that Hashem makes shidduchim. Let’s try to act like it.
I was wondering which gadol of our generation was SUPPORTED?!! was it Rav Chaim Kanievsky? Go take a look at his apartment! Or perhaps Rav Eliashev? I saw his apartment to! It is no wonder that our gifted young men grow up so much less than expected! My RY once said a morodige gedank…The fact that wealthy ppl look for bnei torah is no wonder.A wealthy person will always feel he is missing the greater than money which is torah.But that a ben torah should be looking for wealth?! Meaning to say that torah isn’t satisfiing enough they need money too?! what kind of torah is this? The fact that years ago a ben torah also looked for a father-in-laws support has no connection with today’s desire of “torah ugdula”! In those days a learner would starve without support but today a ben torah could show off his expensive car!
We eschew the entrapments of the secular world but “try to limit as much as possible” extorting each other or the sake of shidduchim?
WHERE are the middos?? I sure don’t want my child marrying a Yid who doesn’t have any, chareidi or not!
#21 theari: when you become your generation’s R’Elyashuv (shlita), I’ll consider buying you an apartment. Until then, get busy!
Someone mentioned above that we need to pay these amounts to create the next gedolim. I can assure you that any of the gedolim that you can think of, didn’t demand anything resembling amounts like this. The reason they are gedolim is because they had bitachon that Hashem would look after them without looking to make demands on others. If a bochur demands money or a dira, I think you can be 100% certain that he will not be among the next generation’s gedolim.
There is nothing wrong with parents helping their children buy a dira. However, when it is demanded . that is where the problem lies. It is a common thing even in America for many parents to help their kids buy homes.
I live in EY.. and guess what .. my parents and in laws did not help at all. My husband and I took out loans and have been shoveling out 2,000 shekel a month on OUR OWN. it is only now that my husband’s pay got slashed are we getting a bit of help.
I for one as a caring and loving parent would do anything to help my children avoid that. As parents we want to give our kids the best start in life. There is nothing wrong with parents helping.. but there is something wrong when it is DEMANDED of them.
Parents who can’t should be saying.. we would love to help you but can’t.. this mentality that parents can stop taking care of their kids just b/c they go under the chuppah is ridiculous. Once a mother, always a mother.. Even if I can’t afford to help buy and apt.. you can bet I will invite them for shabbos.. help buy things for the kids etc etc..
why is everyone surprised. I am working bachur and now cannot get shidduchim since I am doing something wrong, (actaully making money and not living off others) my “learning” freinds have demands that I would not fathom.
To #33: Kol Hakavod that you’re working. You don’t need anyone’s Haskamah, certainly not mine, but let me state clearly: you are not doing anything wrong by working. Anyone who says otherwise is attempting to be more Frum than the Torah (most Meforshim understand that “Sheises Yamim Taavod” is a Reshus, although some consider it to be a Mitzvah. Either way, no one holds that it’s Asur).
There are plenty of people interested in a working Ben Torah for their daughters, although in some communities, people are scared to admit it. You don’t mention what type of work you are doing, but you would do well (if you have not done so already) to get training in a field that can provide long-term Parnasa to your future Mishpacha. At the same time, keep Shteiging in your learning and Avodas Hashem. Finally, broaden your search to communities that respect Torah im Derech Eretz. Much Hatzlacha to you!
#21 does have a point. However, the Gedolim would never want to put such a strain on the parents. They would be more considerate. These parents have to hand over all this money all at once. It is not like they can save up for this.. nor is it fair to put the burden on others for this. That is why there is something called Gemach Mercazi where parents could put away 10-30 dollars a month away and then when it comes time for shidduchim the parents could borrow this amount.. for some even this is not feasible if they have a large family.
To #21: Bochurim who make ridiculous demands will never be Gedolim like Rav Eliashiv or Rav Steinman, although they may wind up following in the path of Ben Azai.
I have a novel idea … how about going out and working like the rest of NORMAL people out their, and not expect anything to come to you? I will fully criticize any “rav” who says that it is ok to make that expectation on parents/inlaws … who is that much of a total and utter ingrate that they expect their parents, who have spent so much on them already, owe them even more money. It absolutely disgusts me
This money is not referring to shadchanus fees, it is referring to how much money parents will give to support the married couple. Since this system has been operating for at least 25 years, theoretically we should be having thousands of gedolei Hador by now. So all you talmidei chachamim whose father in laws supported you in learning, gave you an apartment, and you let your wife earn the money, bear the children and run the home, reveal yourselves!! Who are you? Where are you? We should be having hundreds of gedolim to turn to in these troubled times if indeed that was the justification for this “system”.
PS Many 40 and 50 year old men have dropped dead from trying to manage the apartment buying for their children. Stop the madness altogether. If a couple is old enough to marry, let them figure out how to support themselves . (My husband learned in kollel and we figured out how to support ourselves on our own without parents support for years)