SHOCKING Letter Published In Lakewood Newspaper ⚡📰

Golfer, actually it goes back to the deposing of Rabban Gamliel (Berachot 28a). The Gra says (Even Sheleima 2) that the Torah is compared to water because it makes everything grow – flowers and weeds. However, the Torah scholarship is not an inheritance (Nedarim 81a). By “elite” I meant someone who is superior in his own right.

Tb, excellent post, and important point.

Nevertheless, it would take a lot more than that to rescind an acceptance.

DY:

I reread that comment. I do NOT trash Gedolei Yisroel. A real gadol does NOT give advice regarding subjects he does not know. It is the ignorant public that pushes the Rav to advise on medical subjects. But their advice there is actually lay knowledge, not Daas Torah. And it is unfortunate that this is a sizable portion of the “Daas Torah” that gets flaunted today. Have you heard the “Daas Torah” that gets attention in cases of marital discord, mental illness, addiction, even chinuch? Anyone can have opinions, but it does not become worthy of being “expertise” or “Daas Torah” until it is based on a body of learned information and experience. This is why I wish rabbonim were consulted on many areas, but that they should reject the questions in areas where they lack the information and experience. This is why the Agudah created a mechanism that offers such education opportunities for rabbonim of various subjects so that they are not “talking though their rabbinical hats”.

As for the Daas Torah regarding chinuch, I suggest you examine the many seforim now available from experts and gedolim. I dare you to question whether there was any lack of expertise among the following: Rav Gamliel Rabinovich, Rav Ovadia Yosef, Chazon Ish, Rav Pam, Slonimer Rebbe, Rav Shach, and Rav Wolbe. None of them intruded into areas in which they had not been informed and experienced. Look at what they said about yeshivos, chinuch, and parenting.

It is not about a world view. I do not fix cars because I really know very little about that. The Rabbonim whose “Daas Torah” is being flaunted in the other thread are not the caliber of recognized Gedolei Yisroel like the list in the previous paragraph. I bet those rabbonim know a lot more than I do, but not enough to be the expert in absolutely everything. As long as they are within their domain of expertise, I listen and follow. When they are pushed to creep outside that, they are no better than the next bloke who knows much less Torah than them.

But other posters seem to have no issue with the credibility of such a story. Why not?

Some people are cynics.

TLIK: You wrote “A real gadol does NOT give advice regarding subjects he does not know. It is the ignorant public that pushes the Rav to advise on medical subjects. But their advice there is actually lay knowledge, not Daas Torah. ”

The Chazon Ish was known for his expertise in medical situations. He did not have any “lay” knowledge. It is well known that a pediatrician in Eretz Yisrael kept the diagram for an operation that was drawn by the Chazon Ish. In addition, there was a medical conference in EY in the late Forties or Early Fifties. On of the speakers decried how the frum world went to the “black coat rabbis”. in fact one of his patients went to the Chazon Ish and followed what the Chazon Ish told him. Another doctor in the audience rose and said that the Chazon Ish conferred with him. The first question asked was how often is this doctor’s diagnosis incorrect? When told 25%, the Chazon Ish gave his advice.

Rav Pam was once asked advice by someone who had to undergo surgery for cancer. He went for two opinions. Both agreed that he needed surgery. Dr “A” was known as a very good surgeon; however, the oncologist suggested that he use Dr. “B”. He asked Rav Pam who advised to use Dr. “B” since the oncologist sees the patients after surgery he knows who the best surgeon is.

Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky was an exception. When he became rav in small Russian town, he realized there was no doctor. He stayed up all night reading a medical book. A few days later somebody in town took sick. Reb Yaakov called the doctor in the next town to discuss the situation. The other doctor was convinced that he was talking to a trained physician and not the Rav of the town.

GadolH: We have always believed that our chachamim are just that….chachamim. Their knowledge comes from learning the Torah and their expertise comes from the source of everything….the Torah. You have every right to go to a doctor. You don’t have  the right to denigrate our chachamim.

Rabbi YY Jacobson has a video up on his site regarding this issue. Worth a listen.
In about the last 10 minutes, he discusses a case, most likely not this one unless many parts of the story were changed, but tragically similar.

He says we have to tune in to our kids and see things from their perspective, and that systems were created to serve the people, not the other way around. But this is just a snippet of the Shiur.

If the mods allow :
https://www.theyeshiva.net/item/5298

To My Dear Sisters,
i am appalled at the letter that was posted on YWN.
I want you to remember what Sarah Schneirer goal was by opening the first Bais Yaakov?She started the movement because she was worried that the girls were out on the streets. Here we are years later one would think we would have built on her idea and improved it over the years.She must be shaking her little finger in disbelief. Girls are being thrown out of schools with nowhere to go.

All the lessons and meforshim the teachers work so hard to prepare are all in vein Good middos and yiras shamayim is ultimately the goal. If we learned nothing the entire year and the girls come out being nice to one another .We have accomplished our tafkid,in educating our girls to become better adults.

Let the schools be a haven of safety and achdus for our students

Miriam Klein

But what is supposed to happen to the girl after she is sent out?

DY:

How does anyone know that this girl will had a bad effect on anyone? If the school is mekarev her, and makes her feel like she belongs and can succeed at her level, she will improve, not deteriorate. This defining a child as a rodeif is a fatal excuse, and one which rarely has any merit at all, except for becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy.

This expulsion problem is not just serious, but it defies logic. Can anyone explain why we have worthy tzedokoh organizations who look for all sorts of immigrant children in public schools to rescue and introduce to Yiddishkeit (that’s a great thing), but are way too quick to throw out someone from a frum background and nice family, into the streets and the public school? For anyone wondering, check out a few Brooklyn high schools for how many girls from frum families are there because they were either expelled or not admitted to frum schools. I checked this once, and it was very alarming.

How does anyone know that this girl will had a bad effect on anyone?

Presumably, she has had this issue prior to high school.

The only problem with your theory is that schools check out the students beforehand.

That’s not a problem with my theory, it’s a problem with almost any theory.

However, just because you do research, there’s no guarantee that you didn’t miss something.

to Lacissrama:

No one is denigrating our chachamim . What I’m saying is obvious. their limud torah may provide some superficial knowledge about bodily functions and healing but they cannot be expert enough to advise on highly complex medical issues the knowledge of which comes from years of secular study and clinical/diagnostic experience. Very, very few have had the opportunity to gain that knowledge and certainly not in a beis medrash. that in no way takes away from their gadlus in matters of torah learning. The two are not comparable.

“The only problem with your theory is that schools check out the students beforehand.”

My son was rejected from a brooklyn pre-school because they “checked” with a neighbor who told them we owned a TV. Unfortunately, they “checked” with a “neighbor” who had moved away almost 3 years before the “checking”, and this “neighbor” had no idea that 2.5 years before they were asked, we had thrown out our TV. I hope they have improved their standard of “checking”.

GadolH: You wrote: “No one is denigrating our chachamim . What I’m saying is obvious. their limud torah may provide some superficial knowledge about bodily functions and healing but they cannot be expert enough to advise on highly complex medical issues the knowledge of which comes from years of secular study and clinical/diagnostic experience”

Just by calling their limud hatorah as “superficial knowledge” is denigrating talmidei chachamim. I have never heard Rabbi Zafrani’s comment as related by AviK. I have been taught otherwise by my rabbeim.

You have every right to no talk to Daas Torah on a medical subject. Don’t put down those who still have “emunah peshutis” in them.

DY -“However, just because you do research, there’s no guarantee that you didn’t miss something.”

Of course they missed things, but not something that would influence others to do bad things!
They accepted the girl, but because of pressure they kicked her out. IDK what the reason was, but surely it wasn’t because – “It’s a lot more likely for a girl to be sent out for fear that she will have a negative affect on others’ middos and yiras shamayim”!

The Little I know:

I know that there a children that have difficulty finding a Yeshiva or Bais Yaacov (to some extent this is simply a function of the opening of new classes not keeping up with population growth) and that there are children that are thrown out of Yeshivos all the time. What I haven’t heard of is a child being thrown out because the parents of other children insisted on it.

I cannot imagine a scenario other than immediate physical danger in which I would call my child’s school with such a demand. And I don’t know anyone else that would do it either. I therefore have a very hard time believing that this is a common thing.

RebYidd23:

1. Opening new yeshivos is not efficient. Ask anyone who attempted to do that.
2. Specialized yeshivos for OTD kids carries a Pandora’s Box of other issues. It is difficult to create the proper environment, and the matching of a child to a particular setting is infinitely tougher. Again, ask anyone who runs such a yeshiva.
3. I suspect that you missed the entire matter here. To create a system that catches the throw-outs might have some redeeming value, but it circumvents the true problem. The real issue is that yeshivos have become exclusive instead of inclusive. That is inherently problematic. It was achdus that merited Klal Yisroel to receive the Torah. The continuity of Torah demands that achdus be maintained. If we mess that one up, we have a serious problem. Chinuch is extending the chain of Torah to yet another generation. Exclusivity challenges one of the foundation criteria. The problem is not just a single individual or a particular yeshiva. It is a system where this becomes the modus operandi. You are correct in noting that efforts to change the “system” are so difficult that doing other inefficient things gotta be easier.

I am crying as I write this.
The school made a decision to throw this girl out.
I will assume they had reasons that were legitimate in their eyes.
Having said that they did not accept responsibility for doing this on the first day of school thus leaving the child devastated.
They at a minimum should have found an alternative school or somehow worked with her before depositing this girl on the street.,
We live in an oilem sheker and Hashem is punishing almost every family R”L for what we do and what we don’t do.
I for one am with G-Ds help that I will certainly need and I daven and ask that he will not hold back, am going to try harder in my dalid amos.
I am still crying for this and so many other misdeeds that have affected so many of us.
And yes maybe the ones who lead us, should talk about this kind of thing in Shul instead of what chumra is new, or what the Parsha says this week.
Their priorities have become confused or chas visholom corrupted
If I have convinced one person to try harder then I hope Hashem will assist me in trying harder as well.

Edited

TLIK, I was being sarcastic.

It seems every commentor is missing the point it seems quite clear that this girl had some sort of religious issues that may be the letter writers changed details and low Scholastic achievement may be a euphemism for low religious tendencies the parent who called two say that they would pull their child was within their rights the school is additionally within their rights to decide between the two children the school now has an ultimatum to decide between the two children if the school felt that losing and influential or financially giving parent would be to the great detriment of the school perhaps undermining the financial stability of the entire school what would you like the school to do would you like the school to shut down due to financial loss are you as a commenter prepared to cough up the necessary funds to keep the school going if the school loses affluent parent buddy the only question that seems to remain is how should the school proceed that is really the domain of the school administrator probably the administrator should not approach the girl on the first day of school and throw her out however that may also be detail that was changed within the letter and perhaps the administrator actually called the parents perhaps the administrator called the parents the day before the school started and told them to please not send their daughter perhaps the parents felt they would force the school’s hand and sent her anyway I do not know neither do any of the other commenters on this site know .
what I do know is that schools are placed in very difficult positions on constant basis yes Lakewood is and therefore it is not a community school system there are many many merit-based schools that is a fact of life it is a problem I do not know the solution neither do any of the commenters on this site

GH:

You wrote: “The school is NOT obligated to find a new school for this girl…that is the parents’ responsibility. If no school in Lakewood will accept her, perhaps they need to look in the mirror and try a bit of critical self-examination as to whether there is something they can do to better conform with the schools’ requirements. ”

I must disagree. The school who rejects an admission might have no obligation to help find an alternative placement. A school who tells a child to leave, regardless of why, does have a responsibility. That does not exclude the parents, but the expelling school should definitely participate in getting this kid placed elsewhere. Painfully, I am aware of yeshivos who sent a kid out, and followed by calling other schools to tell them not absolutely NOT accept that kid. This anger being released on a kid with such damage is inexcusable. This is fact, not theory or belief. I know such families/kids.

Conform to school requirements – this is a challenging issue, and my opinion is not very popular today. I do not believe it is the domain of a yeshiva to conform parents to anything at all. In fact, I believe that most of these rules about parents are arbitrary, and have nothing to do with a child’s potential for success. There are exceptions to this, but very few. If we look back in history just a few decades where this craze about setting standards did not exist, it is hard to find those kids who were negatively influenced by this. I had classmates whose fathers wore colored shirts. It had zero effect on me or my other classmates. Many classmates came from homes where there was television. Quite a number of these kids are today Roshei Yeshivos or Kollelim. No effect on them or other classmates. I propose that these “standards” are artificial, and make some people feel better (placebo effect), but are not truly related to chinuch or potential for success.

Lastly, this critical self-examination you propose with the subsequent changes will hardly accomplish much. Let’s suppose mother’s shaitel was too long, or father wore colored shirts. Changing that will have no effect on admission for the child, who will be viewed as flawed by virtue of the shaitel or colored shirt having tainted this child for the all the past years of growth. Nothing fixed.

Sorry about lack of proper punctuation. I am typing on a small phone screen and its extremely difficult to actually see what I am writing.
My basic point in short
Perhaps the girl had religious issues. (Seems so from the paragraph about how her parents tried to save her soul for five years.
Perhaps the parent(s) who called represent a real financial threat to the stability of the school.
Would you recommend the school close down?
Its a tough call and I don’t know the answer.
Perhaps the school told the parents not to send their daughter but the parents sent her to try to force the school’s hand

The author would have made a MUCH bigger roshem had the truth (if it is even true in the first place!) been told and REAL names used, ESPECIALLY the person who signed the letter.

I looked up the name and it seems this person never existed.

El Rushbo, that would have opened up a legal and halachic can of worms. LH and invasion of privacy for starters. It would have also exposed the writer to retaliation.