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Bais Hillel,
your opinion is appreciated as, your opinion. However we were attempting to focus on the facts which unfortunately for the anti-vax and alternative thinking people, do not point in their direction.
I and others are not invested in one direction or in any belief. If you show me the science and it is well researched I will not have any problem changing my position, the same is with the rest of the world.
It is done all the time, treatment modalities have changed dramatically as science and evidence has become available.
If being caught with lies, studies that do not exist, studies that actually conclude the opposite of what you thought they imply, is something that sits well with you, you do have an alternative way of consuming information, but do not blame the rest of us in buying into your cause.
Dooms,
“Folks, it is Very Sad that Yserbius is incapable of understanding that just because He or the CDC does not AGREE with the 157 Studies Linking Vaccines to Autism, it is still a LIE to say There AREN’T any studies linking
Vaccines to Autism. Of course, there are.”That is NOT (Mods, sorry for the CAPS) what Yserbius has stated, not that they disagree with these studies (which may or may not be the case), only that they do not imply what you say that they imply.
At this point, I am fairly convinced that you are not such a rational person, more like an ‘alternative’ person.
Truth,
Can you please point to where you get these number?
These increases that you posted do not account to the general decrease in infant mortality, even with the increase in other mortalities.
Also, it is the providers that decide on the diagnosis, not the CDC or other government agency.
Dooms,
“When you add up SIDS + Unknown Causes (what’s difference?) + accidental suffocation / strangulation
you will the number of HEALTHY Babies dying in their sleep BARELY CHANGED!”Once again, you are twisting the truth.
Posted in Pediatrics.
Postneonatal deaths in total of have declined 21.9% where SIDS have declined 38.9%.
The increases in other areas (by a percent or so) are the reason why the overal postneonatal rate has not declined as much as the SIDS rate has declined.
Unlike you posted, there was an overall decline in postneonatal mortality. There has not been any change in name, SIDS is still SIDS, just like before all mortality up until the first year of age goes under the postneonatal category.
Truth,
“In 1992, to address the unacceptable SIDS rate, the American Academy of Pediatrics initiated a ‘Back to Sleep’ campaign, convincing parents to place their infants supine, rather than prone, during sleep.
From 1992 to 2001, the postneonatal SIDS rate dropped by an average annual rate of 8.6%. However, other causes of sudden unexpected infant death (SUID) increased.
For example, the postneonatal mortality rate from ‘suffocation in bed’ (ICD-9 code E913.0) increased during this same period at an average annual rate of 11.2%.”Not sure if you understand the terms, postneonatal mortality includes SIDS, its basically any mortality that occurs between 28 days and 1 year of age.
This includes anything, yet the trend of unexplained deaths in infants have dropped significantly, while the mortality rate in other groups has also dropped yet not as significant.There is evidence based on studies that sleeping in the prone position, the mother having an unhealthy lifestyle and better neonatal care have an effect on SIDS.
Dooms,
“I quoted from the Merck MANUAL which explains the causes of encephalitis as:”
Not sure why you are implying that this was not what I was referring to. You misquoted as if the Merck manual (or insert) implies that the MMR vaccine is not safe, it actually implies just the opposite, in fact, it clearly states the opposite.
I posted it and you just move on, as if nothing happened.As I stated earlier, you are either very dumb or just a fraud.
Dooms,
“I quoted from the Pediarix Insert, Not the MMR insert, 2scents”.
No one said otherwise, yet previously you misstated the MMR insert, you wrote something that was not true.
You have a track record of either being very dumb or a simple fraud.
No wonder you hold Wakefield in high regard.
Dooms,
As the study I posted earlier details the decline we see in sIDS yet more children receive vaccines than before, which demonstrates that SIDS have nothing to do with vaccines.
Dooms,
Is your moving on to a new argument that the other arguments have been exhausted and actually prove the opposite of what you claimed?
Can you have the decency to state that despite all the evidence you will still cling to your belief that vaccines are to blame for anything that happens to anyone?
Dooms,
You lied (or just reposted from some radical site) about the MMR insert, I posted the actual insert which clearly indicates the opposite of what you implied.
Do you have an agenda, because truth and facts are not your thing.
Dooms,
“Folks, Yserbius LIES that there Are NOT 157 research studies showing a link between vaccines and autism.
Google it and you will find the website on the 157 research studies showing a link between vaccines and autism in one minute!”You are really funny, while I have not googled it, many have and posted here that these studies do not imply what you say they do, yes they have the words autism and vaccines in them, yet they do not imply what you say they do.
Why are you not responding to these people, is it because you have not reviewed these studies?
Dooms,
This has been rehashed so many times, yet you just repeat it time after time as if no one has explained this to you.
Since you do not acknowledge the response, I would assume that your intention is not the facts, rather to overload the discussion with repetitive nonsense.
If you would appreciate a comprehensive review of the VAERS reporting system and the data, read below.
“This comprehensive review of death reports to VAERS for the period 1 July 1997 through 31 December 2013 indicates that the most common causes of death in VAERS were consistent with the leading causes of death in the US population (Table 6) [13]. The 2149 deaths described in this study were reported to VAERS during a period of time when approximately 2 billion doses of vaccine were distributed for use in the United States. This translates to roughly 1 reported death per 1 million doses of vaccine distributed. Because the majority of death reports were in children, the most common causes of death were in this age group. SIDS was the leading cause of death (28.1%) among all reports and accounted for 51.7% of death reports in infants, which is consistent with infant mortality data that place SIDS as the third leading cause of death in the United States among infants, after congenital malformations, deformations, and chromosomal abnormalities; and disorders related to short gestation and low birthweight [13, 16]. The male predominance of death reports in our study is driven by SIDS reports in which males accounted for 62%. This is consistent with studies that found males to be at higher risk of SIDS [17]. SIDS occurs rarely during the first month of life and peaks between 2–3 months of age [17]. Because SIDS peaks at a time when children are receiving many recommended vaccinations, it would not be unexpected to observe a coincidental close temporal relationship between vaccination and SIDS [18]. SIDS deaths in the United States have been declining since the early 1990s for a variety of factors that include recommended changes in sleeping position and environment, clarification of the case definition, and diagnostic coding shifts [19–22]. This downward trend in SIDS reports has also been observed in SIDS reports submitted to VAERS since the early 1990s [7] and has continued during the years of this review from 1997 through 2013. There is considerable evidence that vaccination is not causally associated with SIDS [18, 22, 23], including an Institute of Medicine (IOM) review in 2003 that rejected a causal association between the whole cell pertussis–containing vaccine (which is no longer in use in the United States) and SIDS and between exposure to multiple simultaneous vaccines and SIDS [21].”
I realize that the post is getting a bit long, but this is from the CDC:
Anyone who gives or receives a licensed vaccine in the U.S. is encouraged to report any significant health problem that occurs after vaccination. An adverse event can be reported even if it is uncertain or unlikely that the vaccine caused it. Reporting to VAERS helps scientists at CDC and FDA better understand the safety of vaccines
ANYONE CAN REPORT TO VAERS, its encouraged and easy to do so, the report does not need to even include evidence that the illness is linked to vaccine.
Dooms,
If your research would not have been selective, you would have also noticed that the supreme court has taken the position that states may implement mandatory vaccination laws. It has been ruled that this is constitutional.
Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905)
Schools have the right to refuse admission to an unvaccinated student.
Zucht v. KingDooms,.
“Rav Shmuel shlitah said that Yeshivas/BY may not stop unvaccinated children from attending Yeshiva/BY.
You don’t consider that an anti-vax position?”Nope note at all, this is not an anti-vax position, it just means that the schools must accept them.
Furthermore, he has not said this when there was an outbreak, even if he were to say so, does not mean that he recommends not vaccinating. otherwise, he would have said so.Dooms,
You just keep on repeating yourself, its become a boring conversation.
Without telling people to google, and without just stating assumptions and label them as fact, do you have anything of substance?
Dooms,
“Vaccines are NOT safety tested the same way Medicine is. There are NO PLACEBO Tests comparing Vaxxed to Unvaxxed like MUST be done for all other new medicine by LAW!;”
Really? from where are you taking your facts, you cannot just make up facts then use it as an argument.
If this is your tactic, we will never end as you can just manufacture facts as you see fit.
Dooms,
You have a comprehension problem, your statements are just that, just because you state something that does not turn in to a fact.
Truth,
So your saying the burden of proof is to prove something thats made up does not exist?
Your making up facts and asking others to prove theybdo not exist?
The safety of vaccines has been extensively researched. Yes there has been some provider related injuries, rare allergic reactions.
Truth,
These are your own facts, facts are not statements.
I think you should rephrase your post with , it is my belief that…
Doom,
Your amazing, you have brought up the Geneva argument in the past, I responded to it, yet you make believe like no one said anything about it
So now, explain why it is in violation
This is not about learning the facts, unfortunately, these alternative thinking people are against medicine not because the facts indicate that medicine is in the wrong, in fact medicine is based on science. Only because this is their belief and people cling to beliefs even when logic and facts dictate otherwise.
This is the very reason why these posters start out to portray themselves as reasonable, some would say things like I myself vaccinate my children, but you just have to understand these people that have ‘concerns’ about vaccinations, you just have to realize that these people are better educated then you might think, in fact they are better educated than you, this is why they decided not to vaccinate, its about being in the know and educated, this is how they start off to come across as moderates and to validate the ‘alternative’ movement.
Yet once it is shown that the evidence is not on their ‘side’, they get exposed for being fundamentalists, they try to overload the thread with many garbage posts which have its only source in these radical anti-medicine blogs, they accept whatever is typed by these radical people as fact then expect everyone else to answer to them and prove them wrong. When they are proven wrong. they never apologize for the incorrect data they posted, even when it is in public, they just continue with more overload of garbage.
I think that by now it is very clear to most people why the average physician is not able to respond to these claims, it is not because they are not educated, they are. It is because they are not aware of all these MADE UP CLAIMS and Made up data, its not like there are two sides, its a few people that write something and when the doctor is not familiar with the nonsense and lies, they consider themselves ‘educated’.
Knowledge is power, that really depends if you have the right knowledge of the garbage nonsense that was posted on some radical anti-medicine blog, it is like reading novels and expecting everyone else to know about the events you read.
Doom,
“The only study I heard Anti-Vaxxers ask for is a RETROSPECTIVE Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed Study.
Congress requested from the CDC a Vaxxed vs Unvaxxed Study, but the CDC refuses.”A. There have been numerous studies, I myself have provided a few on the other thread, not sure why you fail to appreciate responses that are directed at your posts, (I guess because all you can do is just copy paste from some silly radical site). If you would actually care about facts, you would not just repeat the same questions time after time.
B. Please provide the source of these requests made by Congress to the CDC?
Is doom a bot that just posts what it was programmed to post without even acknowledging appropriate responses?
Doom,
Unfortunately for you, that is not what i stated, if this is a gotcha discussion then I’m out I am to old for that.
If you appreciate facts and evidence, we can have an informative discussion.
For our safety doctors cannot just decide to use their own judgement and expect to get away with it if there is an adverse outcome.
They will be scrutinized and if the treatment or non treatment was inappropriate the doctor can be accused of malpractice, which mean inappropriate practice.
Are you suggesting that we do away with malpractice? Is that because your alternative people do not have this concept and the ‘alternative providers’ cannot be held accountable?
Dooms,
“and there are DOCTORS who WITNESSED it! And those Doctors Know Vaccines are dangerous but
if they don’t continue vaccinating they will lose their license!”So are you accusing doctors of knowingly harming their patients? do you have a list of these doctors and what is the basis of these accusations??
It feels like a one-sided conversation, it is not like you are appreciating the responses you just continue to spew the nonsense that you have been taught on these anti-medicine radical sites.
Dooms,
“So if a doctor believes that vaccines do more harm then good because the Doctor saw with his/her own eyes children dropping dead or regressing into autism after vaccination, the Doctor MUST continue to vaccinate his patients anyway or he/she can be sued for Malpractice! So you are wrong again, Vaccinator. Doctors are NOT allowed to use their own judgment but must “FOLLOW ORDERS” – at least when it comes to Vaccination!”
You are incorrect, Doctors can practice as they see fit. However, if the patient has a negative outcome and the doctor did not follow recommended and prudent evidence-based and accepted treatment they will be at risk for a malpractice lawsuit.
Dooms,
“What exactly does this study prove?”
It appears that Health was referring to this study. JAMA 2275444
“Conclusions and Relevance In this large sample of privately insured children with older siblings, receipt of the MMR vaccine was not associated with increased risk of ASD, regardless of whether older siblings had ASD. These findings indicate no harmful association between MMR vaccine receipt and ASD even among children already at higher risk for ASD.”
Does this answer your question?
Religious reasons for not vaccinating when the Gedolim have come out in WRITING advising that we should vaccinate seems a bit absurd unless the religious reason is not Judaism.
“I am PRO Polio and Measels! You vaxxers never stopped to analyze the benefits of not vaxing.”
Not sure if you have noticed, we just dont like to play along with your nonsensical approach, which means supporting your religion cult-like belief about vaccines.
unfortunately, I and others have analyzed the adverse outcomes of these viruses, either through individuals I know or by treating them in a clinical context.
It is people like you, who go for one-liners that are guilty of spreading lies and nonsense which results in pain and adverse outcomes for others. You should be made aware that the majority WRITTEN daas torah clearly labels people like you in a very bad way, you are guilty of scaring people and will have to give a din vcheshbon for causing them to go through so much pain and suffering.
margolioth,
You are making a whole bunch of claims.
A. vaccine-related injuries are under-reported because there is no ICD code for it, then it should have been zero. In fact, there are ICD codes for vaccine-related injuries.
B. Andrew Wakfields work has been proven to be fraudulent, seems like you prefer to rewrite the facts, (even Wakefield was not against vaccination at the time, only that his vaccine is safer).
C. Not sure where you take it that there is treatment done against parents consent. The rules of consent are pretty clear.
Dooms ,
I was waiting for you to bring up Judy A. Mikovits, She has only began siding with the anti vaccinators when she was sidelined for not acknowledging that her findings about the XMRV were proven to be incorrect in a blinded study which included her own lab.
She refused to acknowledge that and refused to give up material that did not belong to her, only later when she was sidelined and believed that all her partners are involved in a conspiracy did she join the anti vaccine movement.however, you fail to notice she is a big believer in vaccines, only that there was some contaminant at one point. All of this is unfounded and she has been discredited a long time ago, nonetheless, she does not advocate against vaccinations.
Dooms,
“I still have not heard an explanation on why CDC refuses to do a RETROSPECTIVE study comparing”.
the problem I personally have with this discussion is that most of the stuff you bring up have been addressed more than once on this thread, yet just ignore them and continue to copy paste the nonsense.
There are retrospective studies, here is one. PubMed 12523209, in fact, it is a very large one.
Here is another one, JAMA 2275444
I am not telling you to google something, nor am I copy-pasting from some radical websites.
Dooms, the answer is yes.
Dooms,
This is not the first time you wrote that I admitted to lying, i have not lied and for sure never admitted to such.
Your a despicable person for labeling me as a lier.
In fact, the many name callings exposes who you are, you are a troubled individual that has some sort belief about a conspiracy, complete disregard for proven science and accepts junk sites and garbage science.
Thruth,
Is it your opinion that the amount of emulsifiers in vaccines are considered ‘regular diet’?
Your implying that the amount contained in vaccines us dangerous, you link a study which does not imply the same.
So after all, its your personal opinion that the vaccines are unhealthy, is that not so?
DOOMs,
I will not have the time today to follow your guidebce and use some google search.
You have not provided any studies that link autism with vaccines. I have provided more than one study that clearly show there is no link.
I dont think we play by the same rules, you are hyper focused on calling people names and accusing people of behaviors, hope it makes you fell good.
Truthshudden,
I am waiting for the apology of you publicly posting something that vaccines cause cancer.
Thruth,
Thanks for posting the article, i hope that people will learn from this to lead a healthier life and avoid using soaps and ice creams on a regular basis as it can cause IBD which can possibly lead to cancer.
As is noted in the study, regular diet of emulsifiers increases the risks, now what point are you trying to prove?
No one said that preservatives are healthy, which is why people should avoid regular diets of preservatives.
Does this mean that being exposed once to a preservative increases the risk, not at all.
In fact, all the preservatives that are found in most food that we consume on a regular basis, contain preservatives and can be a good reason to the increase health problems.
So many foods, cosmetics and creams contain emulsifiers, some are even called ‘natural’.
In case no one realized, dooms makes a statement, because dooms stated so, it becomes fact. Which is the bases of the argument.
Accuses everyone of lying, but dismisses any response that actually explains why not only is it not a lie, but a complete miss understanding (probably deliberately) of what is actually the truth.
Dooms,
“However there are numerous accounts of parents whose child died and the doctors insist that the death was not caused by vaccines but was
a “coincidence”. These doctors are not reporting these deaths to VAERS ”And you know this as fact, or theory?
Dooms,
“2Scents – explain to my WHY CDC refuses to do a Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed Study?”
There are many explanations why it is not ethical not to vaccinate a group of people just for the purpose of a study, however the data is pretty clear, See below. (of course you only accept made up and twisted data that supports your theory, not true data).
JAMA 2275444
Conclusions and Relevance: In this large sample of privately insured children with older siblings, receipt of the MMR vaccine was not associated with increased risk of ASD, regardless of whether older siblings had ASD. These findings indicate no harmful association between MMR vaccine receipt and ASD even among children already at higher risk for ASD.
Dooms,
Why have you not acknowledged and apologized for the studies you have posted yet when some have shown you that the actual content and conclusions are contrary to what you have posted, you don’t acknowledge this.
This includes falsely posting about what is written on the MMR vaccine insert.
Is your strategy just to overwhelm people with lies and exhaust them?
Lastly, is there one thing that would convince you to drop the theory, or the conspiracy theory must stand at all costs?
Doomsday,
It is your theory that vaccines cause autism not genetics, so what would explain the autism detected in a child that had not received vaccines, since the rate of autism is the same.
Dooms,
“Folks, I gave FOUR Facts as evidence vaccines can cause autism and you need to read ALL FOUR to see my point. Daasyochid is being silly. Here are my Four Facts“
The efforts of you trying to prove the conspiracy has been noted and appreciated.
What is not appreciated, is you calling made up facts as evidence.
Your kinda come across as silly, seems like your conspiracy theory discussion has been exhausted, you chose to dismiss fact and accept fiction. You have no problem bogus claims and when called out on them, you just move on and do not even acknowledge that you either lied or just pasted someone elses garbage.
Extremely inappropriate Behavior.
DassYochid
“Do you honestly believe that this even vaguely resembles a proof?”
Thanks, i have been scratching my head trying to figure out what doomsday is trying to prove, other than having the same words in one sentence does not mean this is the meaning of the sentence.
Dooms has a very low criteria of accepting ‘facts’, yet for some reason has a preference which facts to accept, just happens to be the ones supporting the conspiracy theory of the anti vaccine religion.
Doomsday,
You need to prove the theory that MMR vaccine causes encephalitis.
You need to prove that encephalitis causes autism.
No theories please, will not respond to your theories.
For all I know, you are being paid billions of dollars by the alternative medical community, (you claim that most are free, that’s bogus and you know it, there is no such thing as a single visit, and you must buy their remedies, every ‘patient’ is a lifelong money making piggy bank).
Yet this is a theory and silly. So let’s focus on the facts (for a change).doomsday,
Again you imply there is a debate and that the CDC lied, there is no debate and not sure where lying comes into the picture, it is the facts that matter.
The fact is, there are multiple independent studies that clearly have proven there is no link between vaccines and autism.
There is no study that was able to link autism to vaccines, other than the now known fraudulent study by Andrew Wakefield.
The fact that parents who decided to blame the vaccines for their child’s diagnosis feel strongly about this, does not mean that this is the fact, the evidence clearly shows that this is not the case.
Anecdotally, there are families that stopped vaccinating after one or more of their children were diagnosed with autism, yet they had more children with autism. If this is not genetics, what else is it?
Among one of your comments you implied that vaccines do not really work, this is a ridiculous comment and if that were the case would be easy to study this.
– Almost all cases of measles in the current outbreak were among non-vaccinated people.
– The outbreak is focused in the Jewish community (viruses don’t discriminate).
– Vaccinated individuals (friends and care providers) have not gotten the virus.From doosday,
“DID YOU SEE THAT 2SCENTS SAID THAT SHE DOESN’T HAVE TO PROVE THAT CDC DOESN’T LIE???
BUT WE SHOULD TRUST CDC AND BLINDLY OBEY!!!”I haven’t had a chance to follow up on this thread for a short while, I do not recall saying something like that, if, like your other assertions you twisted this out of my words and are mispresenting what I stated, I am still around and would like to let you know that this is not what I meant, and probably never even wrote this.
Also, how would you know that I am a she (or a he)?
I believe that you are referring to the post that I explained to you that the comment you noted about the statistic of deaths in measles patients do not line up with what the CDC wrote. (as is this is a big deal).
What I wrote to you, is that I merely posted what is printed on the MMR insert, you probably never saw that insert only posted it from an anti-vaccine site, which probably leads to your pilpul about the CDC lying.
Clarity and facts are not your thing, I get it. However, the twisting and lomdus that you pull together only to justify the belief of yours, despite every single piece of garbage data you present gest shown to be inaccurate or mispresented do not impress the rest of us.
Why is it that all anti vaxxers write ridiculously long posts?
On a personal level, I can understand the notion of doing what you believe is right. However,
A. Dont spread false information, and by dumping large quantities of many different arguments and made up studies, you will not come across as more credible.
B. Understand that while you have your rights, the rest of the world and the schools also have rights.
C. Understand that for the rest of us, this is not emotional, we have the data, regulatory institutions and constant micro oversight on vaccines, due to the now proven fraudulent data.
D. While systems have flaws, we live in the real world where conspiracies arent what drive our decisions.
To summarize, your argument about freedom of choice is understood, but also understand that the topic is a public health topic, so dont expect the public to welcome those that are a potential risk to them.
Doomsday,
This is not about winning, unless your out to win. I am out to sort truth from fiction. My position is that facts matter not positions.
Regarding tye 1:1000 for encephalitis i was quoting the Merck insert, just showing you that there is no asmission of autism. Unlike you stated.
Does this make sense?
Another point, please do not just post anything without a sourxe. Even if you repeat it multiple times, even if your anti vaccine website writes it in bold, its still not fact.
Doomsday,
A. Regarding Jonas Salk, interesting stuff, can you provide this in full context? are you referring about the 11 cases of the tainted batch? Jonas Salk for sure never questioned the safety of polio vaccine or its effectiveness as a vaccine, he played a huge part in eradicating polio.
B. From where are you taking the notion that GBS is the same as polio?
– Polio, viral. GBS, not a virus.
– Polio is contagious, GBS not.
– Polio mainly affected children, GBS mainly adults.
Is it because both on the surface have partial paralysis? Or is it because the anti-vaccine website you use as the source said so?C. You are making up a whole bunch of stuff, each and everything you state has been shown to be the opposite of the truth.
I hope you that no one blames most health care providers that just are not familiar with these made up facts and choose to rely on real science and data.Alternative people choose an alternative path, that is their choice but do not blame the mainstream to stick to the real facts.