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Health, what relationship? If there was ever any chance it was destroyed by the Mufti ym”s and his corrupt heirs. For sixty seven years Arab countries have been keeping the people they told to leave and their descendants in poverty and non-citizenship and feeding them lies that the Jews are responsible for their problems. On the other hand, Jews expelled or otherwise forced to leave from Arab countries were immediately given Israeli citizenship. One of them is the new police commissioner. Several others have been or are currently cabinet ministers.
HaKatan,
1. The current state of affairs is the fault of the masses of frum Jews who did not heed Rav Kook’s call for religious aliya which would have made Israel a Tora state from the beginning. Apparently we will have to get there slowly in stages (Yerushalmi Berachot 1:1). In fact, things are constantly improving. There are two yeshivot in T.A. (one in the north and one in the south, which are two very different communities) which have both hesder and yeshiva gevoha programs as well as community programs (kindergartens, etc.). There is also a kiruv organization called Rosh Yehudi. Other cities, including mixed Jewish-Arab cities such as Lod have garinim Torani’im that have raised the elvel of the community tremendously. Someone told me that it is much easier to be religious in the IDF today than when he was in it over forty years ago (and, in fact, most of the junior officers are religious).
2. So WW2 was also the fault of the Zionists? I suppose it is also the cause of the Eurocrisis, global warming and the heartbreak of psoriasis. That just proves that it is connected to being Jewish (LOL). Rav Teichtal says the exact opposite in Em HaBanaim Semeicha. There is an obligation to establish a Jewish state as I have already posted several times.
3. I am not acquainted with the Satan. He does not consult me. However, it could actually be that the your state of denial comes from him. He has convinced you NOT to daven for the state. Perhaps you also do not daven for sick people. May Hashem remove the blinders of anti-Zionism.
Joseph, Hakatan and Health, I still want to know why you are intent on posting evil reports about EY. Read Mark Twain’s account in “The Innocents Abroad”. The land was desolate. Economics, FYI, is a sign of the geula (see Sanhedrin 98a with Rashi d”h meguleh mizeh).
1. There is a mitzva to live in EY and a mitzva to conquer EY. Obviously the latter pushes off pikuach nefesh of an individual. Of course, if someone will have to live on tzedaka here because he does not have a transferable skill he is temporarily exempt as that is the opposite of yishuv EY (as Rav Schachter said).
2, The contention that Jews lived in harmony with Arabs before the advent of Zionism is as nonsensical as the “nostalgic” Yiddish song about Romania. I direcxt you to the Jewish Virtual Library’s article “Treatment of Jews in the Arab World”.
3. When Rav Tzvi Yehuda was told of the “maaseh Satan” contention he replied that he was not acquainted with the Satan. BTW, I heard an opposite contention – from a Chareidi rabbi. He said that using anti-religious Jews to bring us back may have been Hashem’s way to trick the Satan into not trying (we do not believe in two reshuyot c”v – in the end the Satan cannot act without Hashem’s permission as we see in Sefer Iyov but it is better if he is quiet) to make trouble.
4. Why do certain people continue to denigrate EY and even refer to it as “Arabia”?
Joseph, EY is not only a safe haven (Yoel 3,5) but the land Hashem has given us and which is part of us as Rav Kook says at the beginning of “Orot”.
HaKatan, the massacre in Chevron was caused by the fact that the Jewish leadership depended on the Arab notables and the British police instead of accepting the Hagana’s offer of protection as well as the inaction of the latter two groups. The Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini ym”s was virulently anti-Jewish and needed no “provocation” beyond our existence. He later offered his services in implementing the Final Solution and recruited a Bosnian Moslem division for the Waffen SS. A pamphlet he distributed included the quote “The Day of Judgement will come, when the Muslims will crush the Jews completely: And when every tree behind which a Jew hides will say: ‘There is a Jew behind me, Kill him!”. Apparently his services were very valuable tothe Nazisas tey paid him a monthly salary that was twice the ANNUAL salary of a German field marshall.
Health,
1. Rav Kook, Rav Tzvi Yehuda,Rav Avraham Shapira, Rav Shaul Yisrael.
2. Why are you so eager to denigrate EY?
3. Some like us. Some even risked their lives to save Jews. Erdogan is even worse than an ordinary anti-Semite. He not only has no reason to hate us but Israel has been good for Turkey. Moreover, Erdogan also has delusions of becoming a caliph and restoring the Ottoman Empire.
Rav Lior said in the name of Rav Kook said that any Jew who sides with our enemies against us is from the Erev Rav.
Health,
1. WE do pasken like Ramban. So there!
[Mason-Communist-Jew]), which presented freemasonry, communism and Judaism as evil.
His relations with Israel went sour with Operation Cast Lead (during which he conveniently forgot his adamant refusal to recognize the Armenian genocide).
3. Actually there are two mashiachs, Mashiach ben Yoser and Mashiach ben David. Rabbi Hillel Rivlin, in “Kol HaTor”, quotes his rebbe the Gra as saying that the job of the former is kibbutz galuyot and the material building of EY. Rav Kook held that he was Herzl (or perhaps the Zionist movement in general – in his hesped for Herzl he is not explicit).
I guess it depends on who you include as gedolei hador. Rav Lior (http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/313612/rav-lior-israel-must-exercise-sovereignty-over-har-habayis.html), for example. Rav Mordechai Eliahu took a middle position, prohibited going to all areas but calling for a shul to be built in a place that is definitely permitted.
Health, the Ramban is the basis. We are REQUIRED to have a Jewish government. Do you really think that Erdogan would be better for the Jews?
147, according to Rav Neventazahl NO One is allowed on HHB. During the time of the Bayit Sheni there was even a sign warning gentiles that they could not go past a certain point.In any case, our security is our job. We cannot depend on others.
You’re right, Joseph. The government should crack down more. A good idea would be to find out if Moslems believe that some disposal of the body will cause torment to the soul and then do it. This will get to the root of why they do not care if they die.Perhaps burying them with dogs.
DY, Rav Eliashiv held that in general it is prohibited to go up so this may have been a way to strengthen his position. Not to mention the fact that very often askanim lied to him in order to get statements they wanted (Rav Simcha Kook said that this is how his agreement to support the Sharon government during the preparations for the expulsion from Gush Katif was obtained).
Health, that was, in fact, an issue at the start of WW1. Some did support the Turks and others thought that the British would be more amenable to establishing a Jewish state. In the end both tried to stop the Geula by both actions and inactions and both lost their empires.
HaKatan, secular Zionism is indeed anti-Tora and a impossible to sustain. Religious Zionism is, in fact, the political expression of Tora. Thus, Rav Tzvi Yehuda (Kook) objected to the term “religious Zinist” as e considered the two to be identical.
One Liner, one gains a greater identification with EY as well as giving chizuk to those Jews who already live here.
MW13, your traffic analogy is totally fallacious. There is no aveira in merely driving a car. If the road was clear and the driver ran a red light the driver alone is responsible. If the driver could nt stop (e.g. the pedestrian ran in front of him on a highway) the pedestrian is solely responsible.
As for going up on HHB, I personally prefer shev v’al taaseh because of the possible severe halachic prohibition. However, according to those poskim who allow and even encourage it, it is indeed proper as is going to the Kotel or the Maarat HaMachpela (and Bnei Beraq – remember they have made abundantly clear that they will not countenance any Jewish presence anywhere in EY
Joseph, what about those gedolim who supported Zionism? The Netziv, Rav Shlomo HaCohen of Vilna (who described a certain anti-Zionist book as heresy), Rav Kook, Rav Meir Simcha and Rav Soloveichik, to name a few.
As for the relations between Jews and Arabs in EY a few observations:
1. After WW1 the Arabs were divided into three factions. Emir Faisal was pro-Zionist and even signed a formal agreement with Chaim Weizman but later became King of Iraq and his brother Abdulla I was given what is now Jordan. and also favored accommodation. Haj Amin al-Husseini ym”s was virulently anti-Jewish and even collaborated in the Holocaust. The Nashishibi clan was in favor of a political compromise with the Zionists. In order to balance the two groups the British made al-Husseini Grand Mufti of Yerushalayim (despite coming in last in the election) and Raghib al-Nashashibi the Mayor. The Husseini and Nashishibi groups eventually fought a bloody civil war.
2. The British knew in advance about the Hebron massacre but not only did nothing but forced Hagana troops who had offered protection to leave the city (they were also rebuffed by the head of the community who trusted the Arab notables).
3. Before the end of the Mandate British secret agents incited Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt to attack the nascent Jewish state with promises that they each would be given territory. This was due to the fact that Britain and France were vying for influence in the Middle East and the agents thought that this would insure that the entire region become a British sphere of influence.
DY, the Rosh on “Shenaim Ochazim” explains that the rationale of “kol d’alim gevar” is that someone will fight harder for what is his. This was shown in the Kotel controversy. When the Arabs saw that the Jews were willing to fight over it they backed down. Tzvi Fishman has an excellent parable about this in his anthology “Days of Mashiach”. A man knocked on someone’s door and informed him that he was the true owner of the TV. Not wanting to make a fuss the man handed it over. In the weeks that followed the same individual made similar demands. He then demanded the man’s wife. Finally he demanded the whole apartment. This is known as “give him an inch and he will take a mile”
One Liner, that nonsense has been rebutted on another thread. So you tell me being that DY did not answer. Was Dreyfus responsible for enraging the anti-Semites by joining the French army? Is someone who wears a black suit and hat responsible for enraging anti-Semites who see him? Does a wife who overcooks dinner responsible if her husband becomes enraged and beats her c”v? Perhaps yeshiva guys are guilty of enraging people by not joining the IDF.
We need both. If someone is really learning and has a future as a Tora leader he should receive a deferment. However, if he is slacking off he should join the IDF and then get a profession and a job.
Golfer, that statement is in the Yalkut Shimoni (Yeshayahu Remez 503).The Baal HaTanya (Likutei Tira Masai 89,2) explains that that means that Hashem’s light will appear in Chutz laAretz without anything blocking it, However, our national home will be the area promised to Avraham Avinu.
Rav Sonnenfeld also refused to sign the declaration giving the Kotel to the Arabs. Anyone who thinks that the Arabs were good people and friendly towards Jews should read books like “In Ishmael’s House”. This thread sounds to me like Stockholm syndrome.
DY, you are stonewalling. Your sheeta is that it is prohibited to do an action that provokes antiSemites. Thus, it is prohibited to walk in an area where there are anti-Semites, certainly during a riot, wearing clothes that identify one as a Jew. Thus someone who does so is responsible for what happens to him. Mendelsohn agreed with your sheeta and counseled assimilation but the Dreyfus affair showed that he was wrong. Being that we are discussing it, was Dreyfus responsible for being sent to Devil’s Island because he provoked anti-Semites by joining the French army?
DY, why not lesheetatcha?
DY, was Yankel Rosenbaum responsible for his own murder for walking in Crown Heights visibly Jewish?
Charlie, once again, what is the difference to the victim if he was socked because he is a Jew or because someone wants his money? The fact of the matter is that the crime rate, including terror attacks, in Israel is much lower than in any American city.
DY, the only culpability of a Jew who goes up on HHB is going there – and that is only according to the opinion that it is prohibited. That is clear to any thinking person. If someone shakes a lilav before the time (let’s say that he follows a different definition of netz) and someone else hits him is the shaker to blame for anything but possibly shaking the lulav before the time?
DY, it depends on the kugel and the other woman.
DY, usually a ???? is ???? because of “???? ???? ???? ??????”. However, where the ???? is known to be willing to commit the crime or does not think that it is prohibited the ???? is ???? (Rema Choshen Mishpat 388:15). In any case, the inciter is certainly morally responsible and may even be executed by the secular authorities (Rambam, Hilchot Rotzeach 2,2-4). However, this obviously has nothing to do with some third person’s actions. For example, if a person testifies against a criminal and then a contract is put on him neither he nor the prosecutor is responsible.
Goq, what she does not know will not hurt him. Once Rav Moshe ate some kugel at some function. He said to the person with him “If the rebbetzin doesn’t ask you don’t have to tell her”.
Agutyar, obviously it depends on the society. If calling a person by his/her first name implies closeness it is a problem. However, today in most situations (an exception is if one is the boss and there it also applies between people of the same gender) it does not.
Regarding Rav Moshe’s pesak, Rav Eli Mansour says that “the halachic authorities” have ruled that there is no problem and then cites Rav Moshe’s opinion. You can ask him on-line what he means. In any case, even Rav Moshe is only machmir lechatchila. Certainly if it would cause ill feelings, she would be stranded, etc. he would be meikal.
Akuperma, “their territory is ruled by foreigners”. Are you saying that Hashem did not give us EY? Are you an Islamist troll? FYI, their miseries are caused, first and foremost, by their corrupt “leadership” that steals aid monies, denies basic human rights and keeps them in a fantasy world. In fact, George Deek, Israel’s vice-ambassador to Norway and an Arab from Yaffo made a speech calling for them to accept the fact of Israel’s existence and move on (the speech is available on-line). Most Arabs who hold Israeli citizenship apparently know deep down on which side their bread is buttered as polls show that hey would not exchange Israeli citizenship for Palestinian citizenship.
Flatbusher, when the first Gulf War broke out the chevruta of a friend of mine received a frantic call from his mother. After she calmed down she very matter-of-factly told him that his brother was robbed at gunpoint.
Charlie, what is the difference except to the police who have to have a motive before they can try to solve it, the ADA who has to decide whether or not to ask for a sentence a hate crime and the judge who has to decide whether or not to so sentence them? If c”v they had been injured they would have been just as injured as if they had been targeted as Jews.
MM,
1. If one holds that it is prohibited to walk on an part of HHB because of tumat met then walking there is not behaving like a Jew. In any case, IMHO before we can ask to go up on HHB we have to learn how to act in shul, the mikdash me’at.
2. I would shake hands with (male) goy who says “Am Yisrael Chai” even not on HHB.
Golfer, do you think that she will be in sem her whole life? BTW, did you hear about the firebomb attack on W. 37th St. near 9th Ave. BTW, when I was a new immigrant and told someone in my ulpan who was from France that I was from the Bronx she asked how I could live in such a dangerous place.
Joseph, you are over on the sin of the spies.
1. The question is in English not Yiddish.
2. If it is every day there might be a problem of becoming too friendly. of course, you can start include another woman. Then they will talk to each other the whole time.
3. Where is the halacha that men and women must address each other by their last names found (see Taanit 20b that Rav Ada bar Ahava ascribed his long life to not addressing people by their last names)? What did Jews do before the authorities required them to take last names? Did they say “Mrs. Golda” (cf. Rav Ovadia) or perhaps like the English “Mrs. Yossi”?
What about all the shootings in American schools?
DY, what he said and what he did were two different things. Considering the Nazi leaderships unhappiness with Vom Rath because of his extracurricular activities he might even have been assassinated by a Nazi who would escape and let them blame it on the Jews. This worked with the Reichstag fire. In any case, in real time a person has to make a decision. Inaction also has consequences. This is one of the lessons of the story of Kamtza and Bar Kamtza.
MW, I already answered you. The mitzva to conquer EY is on Am Yisrael not one an individual. Both Rav Shlomo Aviner and Rav Eliezer Melamed have made this clear. In fact, according to Rashi (Gittin 8b d”h kibush yachid) a personal conquest is not even considered a conquest.
Joseph, I thought that that was an answer. I am not only hoping that we gain those areas but confident that we will. I would prefer that it come through peaceful means.
DY, what about the Jewish partisans and the Warsaw ghetto rebels as well as rebels in other ghettos and concentration camps? Was Walter Rathenau was responsible for his own assassination by negotiating the Treaty of Rapallo? Are Jews who participate in civic life responsible for anti-Semitic charges of “taking over” and Jews who do not for accusations of “clannishness”?
You remind me of the story of two Jews who were going to be shot for “economic crimes” in the former Soviet Union. One said to the officer in charge “I have the right to a last cigarette”. His fellow said “Don’t make trouble”.
Joseph, I am certain that we will also get part of southern Turkey, Iraq and the Sinai. Perhaps one or more of the Ten Tribes will form a state or states and then be revealed.The origin of the Kurds is obscure (you can google “Jewish origin of Kurds”) and the Druze claim descent from Yitro. Both groups are friendly towards Israel.
MW,
1. Rav Avraham Shapira and Rav Shaul Yisraeli were alive until a few years ago. Is that “now” enough for you? How about Rav Dov Lior? He is still alive (until 120). Ditto Rav Shmuel Eliahu.
2. FYI, I live in a settlement in the Binyamin area.
3. The above mitzva is incumbent on Klal Yisrael not on any individual. As I am nichba bakeilim I am waiting for the IDF or the Shabach to demand my services.
MW13,
1. Ramban says it (Sefer HaMitzvot, Mitzvot that Rambam “forgot”). According to the Or HaChaim HaKadosh (Devarim 30,20) and the Avnei Nezer (Yoreh Deah 454,6)
Rambam actually agrees that it is a mitzva in our time but did not list it as one of the Taryag because of his technical rules for counting mitzvot. Rav Avraham Shapira and Rav Shaul Yisraeli thus ruled that it is prohibited to give land even for peace.
2. I do not think that they need any special provocation. Our existence is provocation. However, if they think that nothing will be gained they will abstain from action. This was proven in the years after the Six Day War when a Jew could walk alone and unarmed in any Arab city without being harmed. They knew what they would do if c”v they were on top and presumed that we would do the same (this inability to realize that not everyone thinks like oneself is, in fact, very common).
3. You copied it over so you bear responsibility unless you are totally deficient in Hebrew.
Mobico, the oaths do not imply any such thing. They are only a statement of the fact that there was a decree of galut. The fact of the matter is that every action and non-action is equally provocative. If we keep to ourselves we are clannish and if we try to participate in the general civic life we are trying to take over. We invented both capitalism (never mind that Adam Smith was a Scotsman) and communism (never mind that Marx had been baptized as a child and was anti-Semitic). The real reason was given by our greatest enemy in modern times who wrote that he hated us because we represent morality. In other words, violent anti-Semitism is simply Amalekiut and not dependent on what we do or do not do.
3. Here is Rav Neventzahl’s statement:
So you see,he says the exact opposite of what you say. It belongs to us. However, he rules that we do not have permission to go up at this time.
MW,
1. There is no halachic requirement to go without a smoke detector. There is a halachic requirement to assert our sovereignty over all parts of EY. Personally, I would be satisfied with a total ban which would also apply to Moslems and Xtian tourists. However, being that Moslems are allowed and some poskim allow and even encourage Jews to go up Jews should also be allowed
2. Those who blame the architects of Oslo for the second intifada are making the opposite argument. They are saying that appeasement always has the opposite effect. This is not only true regarding Jewish=gentile relations. Neville Chamberlain’s “peace in our time” is the classic example.
DY, we have an obligation to conquer EY (Rambam Sefer HaMitzvot, mitzvot that Rambam “forgot”). Pikuach nefesh does not push off an obligatory war. That is obvious. In any case, they do not need any actions of ours to be incited. What did the Jews of Chevron do in 5689? Nothing but sit and learn. For that matter, what did the Jews of Europe do (according to Rav Teichtal, it was they did not do – make aliya en masse)?
Mobico, if you are referring to the Three Oaths, that is a halachic non-starter.
1. They are not paskened in any of the codes.
2. Rav Chaim Vital says in his introduction to Sefer Etz Chaim that they were only for 1,000 years.
3. Rav Meir Simcha says that the San Remo Conference revoked them.
4. Rav Soloveichik says in “Kol Dodi Dofek” that Hashem has called as evidenced in the miracles of Israel’s creation and this is a revocation.
5. They broke their oath not to persecute us “too much” on several occasions- the Crusades, the Chmielnitzki massacres, the pogroms and, of course, the Holocaust – so the whole deal is off (see Sota 10a Rashi d”h huchal and Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 236:6).
DY, our very existence “provokes” terror. You have joined the ranks of our enemies by blaming us for anti-Semitism. As for your alley metaphor, baruch Hashem we are no longer in the ghetto. We just have to realize it. Rav Baruch Ashlag (son of the Sulam) says that bitachon also means that one must have faith in himself (as Hashem has, thus we say upon waking “rabba emunateicha”).
MW13, please post the exact quote in Hebrew where Rav Nevantzahl says that non-Jews “own” the site. During the Kotel controversy in 5690 Rav Kook and Rav Sonnenfeld refused to sign a document stating that the Arabs owned the Wall as it is the property of Am Yisrael. The same should be true of Har HaBayit, especially being that David HaMelech purchased it. It could be that we may not go up because for technical reasons but that does not obviate our ownership.
The root sin is sinat chinam. When that ends the Bet HaMikdash will be rebuilt, we will have a para aduma and everyone will go. Until then, each person has on whom to rely either way. As for being a place of avoda zara, when the Greeks and Romans defiled in was it assur to go to the Bet HaMikdash.