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On the contrary, Health. Our enemies can feel that the geula is advancing so they are trying desperately to stop it. In any case, terror is world-wide. Not to mention the fact that in the US someone shoots up a school, mall or workplace every Mon and Thurs. As for freedom of worship, where does it not exist in Israel? In Europe if you want to go to shul you have to register in advance, present ID and go through a check – if you can identify the anonymous building as a shul.
Rabbi, actually Rav Kook wanted the national anthem to be the shir hamaalot we sing on days when we do not say Tachanun.
DY, I dispute your statement. Of course, it depends on whom you count as gedolim.
Feivel, Eretz Yisrael is part of Am Yisrael. It is the only place where we can develop our national potential. (Rav Kook at the beginning of “Orot”).
It dependson why they are forbidden. If they areehretical thye are apikorsut (an apikorsus is a heretic). If they are immodest they are “divrei cheshek”. The sefarim chitzoni’im are those books, such as Sefer Ben Sira, that were excluded from the Tanach. They are not completely forbidden to be read. There is also “chochmat Yevanit” but it is not clear to what that refers. Perhaps sophistry as it literally means “the wisdom of the Greek language” (“Greek wisdom” would be “chochma Yevanit”).
Health @ Co., did you ever read “1984”? Apparently you have formed a frum Ministry of Truth. If you google “Haj Amin al-Husseini biography” you will find that according to the Wikipedia and the Encyclopedia Britannica he was born in 5657. Other sources give his year of birth as no earlier than 5753. With the outbreak of WW1 he became an officer in the Ottoman army. I seriously doubt if he had any contact at all with Jews during his childhood and youth.
As for memories of general relations between Jews and Arabs, there is also a Yiddish song song that praises Romania, which was virulently anti-Semitic and whose governments repeatedly violated treaties they themselves had signed regarding treatment of Jewish citizens. Of course, just as there were individual Romanians who worked for Jews and thus had to be friendly so too there were individual Arabs who worked for Jews. Moreover, as I previously posted, Emir Faisal supported the Zionist movement and even signed a formal agreement with Chaim Weizman. Two weeks prior to signing the agreement, Faisal stated:
“The two main branches of the Semitic family, Arabs and Jews, understand one another, and I hope that as a result of interchange of ideas at the Peace Conference, which will be guided by ideals of self-determination and nationality, each nation will make definite progress towards the realization of its aspirations. Arabs are not jealous of Zionist Jews, and intend to give them fair play and the Zionist Jews have assured the Nationalist Arabs of their intention to see that they too have fair play in their respective areas. Turkish intrigue in Palestine has raised jealousy between the Jewish colonists and the local peasants, but the mutual understanding of the aims of Arabs and Jews will at once clear away the last trace of this former bitterness, which, indeed, had already practically disappeared before the war by the work of the Arab Secret Revolutionary Committee, which in Syria and elsewhere laid the foundation of the Arab military successes of the past two years.”
The areas discussed were detailed in a letter to Felix Frankfurter, President of the Zionist Organisation of America, on 3 March 1919, when Faisal wrote :
“The Arabs, especially the educated among us, look with the deepest sympathy on the Zionist movement. Our deputation here in Paris is fully acquainted with the proposals submitted yesterday by the Zionist Organization to the Peace Conference, and we regard them as moderate and proper.” (from the Wikipedia article on the Faisal-Weizman agreement, which also contains the text of the agreement).
It stands to reason that Faisal’s followers would have been friendly towards the Jews. However, the Mufti ym”s CHOSE to destroy all hope of peaceful co-existence in order to further his own personal political ambitions. The fault lies not with the Zionists, who were Hashem’s tools as Rav Kook says, but with the Mufti ym”s and Sir Herbert Samuel, who appointed him despite the fact that he finished last behind three Nashashibi candidates (Samuel wanted to maintain a balance between the two clans so he appointed the above rasha as Mufti and Raghib al-Nashashibi as Mayor of Yerushalayim).
Health, then what is the solution to galut? Hashem promised us EY not Boro Park.
KJ, the Mufti ym”s was born in 5657 so he could not have had any relationship with Jews prior to the impending creation of a Jewish state. While it is true that at first he supported Emir Faisal, who was pro-Zionist, his rivalry with the Nashashibi clan, which favored non-violent opposition to Zionism and later partition of EY, for intra-Arab power led him to be both anti-British and anti-Jewish. The statement from the Jewish Observer you quote is itself shameful. It whitewashes the Mufti. It is like those liberals in the US who blame crime on discrimination and never mind that the vast majority of the victims are black (similarly the Mufti’s forces killed many more Arabs than Jews). He chose his way. He could have just as easily followed Emir Faisal’s lead and urged co=operation with the Zionists for the mutual benefit of Arabs and Jews. Likewise the British chose to follow an Arabist policy. EY is ours. Period. In fact, Ramban says that the Tora starts with Creation so that WE will know this. Arabs can be gerim toshavim but they must accept Israel as a Jewish state.
Health, what relationship? If there was ever any chance it was destroyed by the Mufti ym”s and his corrupt heirs. For sixty seven years Arab countries have been keeping the people they told to leave and their descendants in poverty and non-citizenship and feeding them lies that the Jews are responsible for their problems. On the other hand, Jews expelled or otherwise forced to leave from Arab countries were immediately given Israeli citizenship. One of them is the new police commissioner. Several others have been or are currently cabinet ministers.
HaKatan,
1. The current state of affairs is the fault of the masses of frum Jews who did not heed Rav Kook’s call for religious aliya which would have made Israel a Tora state from the beginning. Apparently we will have to get there slowly in stages (Yerushalmi Berachot 1:1). In fact, things are constantly improving. There are two yeshivot in T.A. (one in the north and one in the south, which are two very different communities) which have both hesder and yeshiva gevoha programs as well as community programs (kindergartens, etc.). There is also a kiruv organization called Rosh Yehudi. Other cities, including mixed Jewish-Arab cities such as Lod have garinim Torani’im that have raised the elvel of the community tremendously. Someone told me that it is much easier to be religious in the IDF today than when he was in it over forty years ago (and, in fact, most of the junior officers are religious).
2. So WW2 was also the fault of the Zionists? I suppose it is also the cause of the Eurocrisis, global warming and the heartbreak of psoriasis. That just proves that it is connected to being Jewish (LOL). Rav Teichtal says the exact opposite in Em HaBanaim Semeicha. There is an obligation to establish a Jewish state as I have already posted several times.
3. I am not acquainted with the Satan. He does not consult me. However, it could actually be that the your state of denial comes from him. He has convinced you NOT to daven for the state. Perhaps you also do not daven for sick people. May Hashem remove the blinders of anti-Zionism.
Joseph, Hakatan and Health, I still want to know why you are intent on posting evil reports about EY. Read Mark Twain’s account in “The Innocents Abroad”. The land was desolate. Economics, FYI, is a sign of the geula (see Sanhedrin 98a with Rashi d”h meguleh mizeh).
1. There is a mitzva to live in EY and a mitzva to conquer EY. Obviously the latter pushes off pikuach nefesh of an individual. Of course, if someone will have to live on tzedaka here because he does not have a transferable skill he is temporarily exempt as that is the opposite of yishuv EY (as Rav Schachter said).
2, The contention that Jews lived in harmony with Arabs before the advent of Zionism is as nonsensical as the “nostalgic” Yiddish song about Romania. I direcxt you to the Jewish Virtual Library’s article “Treatment of Jews in the Arab World”.
3. When Rav Tzvi Yehuda was told of the “maaseh Satan” contention he replied that he was not acquainted with the Satan. BTW, I heard an opposite contention – from a Chareidi rabbi. He said that using anti-religious Jews to bring us back may have been Hashem’s way to trick the Satan into not trying (we do not believe in two reshuyot c”v – in the end the Satan cannot act without Hashem’s permission as we see in Sefer Iyov but it is better if he is quiet) to make trouble.
4. Why do certain people continue to denigrate EY and even refer to it as “Arabia”?
Joseph, EY is not only a safe haven (Yoel 3,5) but the land Hashem has given us and which is part of us as Rav Kook says at the beginning of “Orot”.
HaKatan, the massacre in Chevron was caused by the fact that the Jewish leadership depended on the Arab notables and the British police instead of accepting the Hagana’s offer of protection as well as the inaction of the latter two groups. The Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini ym”s was virulently anti-Jewish and needed no “provocation” beyond our existence. He later offered his services in implementing the Final Solution and recruited a Bosnian Moslem division for the Waffen SS. A pamphlet he distributed included the quote “The Day of Judgement will come, when the Muslims will crush the Jews completely: And when every tree behind which a Jew hides will say: ‘There is a Jew behind me, Kill him!”. Apparently his services were very valuable tothe Nazisas tey paid him a monthly salary that was twice the ANNUAL salary of a German field marshall.
Health,
1. Rav Kook, Rav Tzvi Yehuda,Rav Avraham Shapira, Rav Shaul Yisrael.
2. Why are you so eager to denigrate EY?
3. Some like us. Some even risked their lives to save Jews. Erdogan is even worse than an ordinary anti-Semite. He not only has no reason to hate us but Israel has been good for Turkey. Moreover, Erdogan also has delusions of becoming a caliph and restoring the Ottoman Empire.
Rav Lior said in the name of Rav Kook said that any Jew who sides with our enemies against us is from the Erev Rav.
Health,
1. WE do pasken like Ramban. So there!
[Mason-Communist-Jew]), which presented freemasonry, communism and Judaism as evil.
His relations with Israel went sour with Operation Cast Lead (during which he conveniently forgot his adamant refusal to recognize the Armenian genocide).
3. Actually there are two mashiachs, Mashiach ben Yoser and Mashiach ben David. Rabbi Hillel Rivlin, in “Kol HaTor”, quotes his rebbe the Gra as saying that the job of the former is kibbutz galuyot and the material building of EY. Rav Kook held that he was Herzl (or perhaps the Zionist movement in general – in his hesped for Herzl he is not explicit).
I guess it depends on who you include as gedolei hador. Rav Lior (http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/313612/rav-lior-israel-must-exercise-sovereignty-over-har-habayis.html), for example. Rav Mordechai Eliahu took a middle position, prohibited going to all areas but calling for a shul to be built in a place that is definitely permitted.
Health, the Ramban is the basis. We are REQUIRED to have a Jewish government. Do you really think that Erdogan would be better for the Jews?
147, according to Rav Neventazahl NO One is allowed on HHB. During the time of the Bayit Sheni there was even a sign warning gentiles that they could not go past a certain point.In any case, our security is our job. We cannot depend on others.
You’re right, Joseph. The government should crack down more. A good idea would be to find out if Moslems believe that some disposal of the body will cause torment to the soul and then do it. This will get to the root of why they do not care if they die.Perhaps burying them with dogs.
DY, Rav Eliashiv held that in general it is prohibited to go up so this may have been a way to strengthen his position. Not to mention the fact that very often askanim lied to him in order to get statements they wanted (Rav Simcha Kook said that this is how his agreement to support the Sharon government during the preparations for the expulsion from Gush Katif was obtained).
Health, that was, in fact, an issue at the start of WW1. Some did support the Turks and others thought that the British would be more amenable to establishing a Jewish state. In the end both tried to stop the Geula by both actions and inactions and both lost their empires.
HaKatan, secular Zionism is indeed anti-Tora and a impossible to sustain. Religious Zionism is, in fact, the political expression of Tora. Thus, Rav Tzvi Yehuda (Kook) objected to the term “religious Zinist” as e considered the two to be identical.
One Liner, one gains a greater identification with EY as well as giving chizuk to those Jews who already live here.
MW13, your traffic analogy is totally fallacious. There is no aveira in merely driving a car. If the road was clear and the driver ran a red light the driver alone is responsible. If the driver could nt stop (e.g. the pedestrian ran in front of him on a highway) the pedestrian is solely responsible.
As for going up on HHB, I personally prefer shev v’al taaseh because of the possible severe halachic prohibition. However, according to those poskim who allow and even encourage it, it is indeed proper as is going to the Kotel or the Maarat HaMachpela (and Bnei Beraq – remember they have made abundantly clear that they will not countenance any Jewish presence anywhere in EY
Joseph, what about those gedolim who supported Zionism? The Netziv, Rav Shlomo HaCohen of Vilna (who described a certain anti-Zionist book as heresy), Rav Kook, Rav Meir Simcha and Rav Soloveichik, to name a few.
As for the relations between Jews and Arabs in EY a few observations:
1. After WW1 the Arabs were divided into three factions. Emir Faisal was pro-Zionist and even signed a formal agreement with Chaim Weizman but later became King of Iraq and his brother Abdulla I was given what is now Jordan. and also favored accommodation. Haj Amin al-Husseini ym”s was virulently anti-Jewish and even collaborated in the Holocaust. The Nashishibi clan was in favor of a political compromise with the Zionists. In order to balance the two groups the British made al-Husseini Grand Mufti of Yerushalayim (despite coming in last in the election) and Raghib al-Nashashibi the Mayor. The Husseini and Nashishibi groups eventually fought a bloody civil war.
2. The British knew in advance about the Hebron massacre but not only did nothing but forced Hagana troops who had offered protection to leave the city (they were also rebuffed by the head of the community who trusted the Arab notables).
3. Before the end of the Mandate British secret agents incited Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt to attack the nascent Jewish state with promises that they each would be given territory. This was due to the fact that Britain and France were vying for influence in the Middle East and the agents thought that this would insure that the entire region become a British sphere of influence.
DY, the Rosh on “Shenaim Ochazim” explains that the rationale of “kol d’alim gevar” is that someone will fight harder for what is his. This was shown in the Kotel controversy. When the Arabs saw that the Jews were willing to fight over it they backed down. Tzvi Fishman has an excellent parable about this in his anthology “Days of Mashiach”. A man knocked on someone’s door and informed him that he was the true owner of the TV. Not wanting to make a fuss the man handed it over. In the weeks that followed the same individual made similar demands. He then demanded the man’s wife. Finally he demanded the whole apartment. This is known as “give him an inch and he will take a mile”
One Liner, that nonsense has been rebutted on another thread. So you tell me being that DY did not answer. Was Dreyfus responsible for enraging the anti-Semites by joining the French army? Is someone who wears a black suit and hat responsible for enraging anti-Semites who see him? Does a wife who overcooks dinner responsible if her husband becomes enraged and beats her c”v? Perhaps yeshiva guys are guilty of enraging people by not joining the IDF.
We need both. If someone is really learning and has a future as a Tora leader he should receive a deferment. However, if he is slacking off he should join the IDF and then get a profession and a job.
Golfer, that statement is in the Yalkut Shimoni (Yeshayahu Remez 503).The Baal HaTanya (Likutei Tira Masai 89,2) explains that that means that Hashem’s light will appear in Chutz laAretz without anything blocking it, However, our national home will be the area promised to Avraham Avinu.
Rav Sonnenfeld also refused to sign the declaration giving the Kotel to the Arabs. Anyone who thinks that the Arabs were good people and friendly towards Jews should read books like “In Ishmael’s House”. This thread sounds to me like Stockholm syndrome.
DY, you are stonewalling. Your sheeta is that it is prohibited to do an action that provokes antiSemites. Thus, it is prohibited to walk in an area where there are anti-Semites, certainly during a riot, wearing clothes that identify one as a Jew. Thus someone who does so is responsible for what happens to him. Mendelsohn agreed with your sheeta and counseled assimilation but the Dreyfus affair showed that he was wrong. Being that we are discussing it, was Dreyfus responsible for being sent to Devil’s Island because he provoked anti-Semites by joining the French army?
DY, why not lesheetatcha?
DY, was Yankel Rosenbaum responsible for his own murder for walking in Crown Heights visibly Jewish?
Charlie, once again, what is the difference to the victim if he was socked because he is a Jew or because someone wants his money? The fact of the matter is that the crime rate, including terror attacks, in Israel is much lower than in any American city.
DY, the only culpability of a Jew who goes up on HHB is going there – and that is only according to the opinion that it is prohibited. That is clear to any thinking person. If someone shakes a lilav before the time (let’s say that he follows a different definition of netz) and someone else hits him is the shaker to blame for anything but possibly shaking the lulav before the time?
DY, it depends on the kugel and the other woman.
DY, usually a ???? is ???? because of “???? ???? ???? ??????”. However, where the ???? is known to be willing to commit the crime or does not think that it is prohibited the ???? is ???? (Rema Choshen Mishpat 388:15). In any case, the inciter is certainly morally responsible and may even be executed by the secular authorities (Rambam, Hilchot Rotzeach 2,2-4). However, this obviously has nothing to do with some third person’s actions. For example, if a person testifies against a criminal and then a contract is put on him neither he nor the prosecutor is responsible.
Goq, what she does not know will not hurt him. Once Rav Moshe ate some kugel at some function. He said to the person with him “If the rebbetzin doesn’t ask you don’t have to tell her”.
Agutyar, obviously it depends on the society. If calling a person by his/her first name implies closeness it is a problem. However, today in most situations (an exception is if one is the boss and there it also applies between people of the same gender) it does not.
Regarding Rav Moshe’s pesak, Rav Eli Mansour says that “the halachic authorities” have ruled that there is no problem and then cites Rav Moshe’s opinion. You can ask him on-line what he means. In any case, even Rav Moshe is only machmir lechatchila. Certainly if it would cause ill feelings, she would be stranded, etc. he would be meikal.
Akuperma, “their territory is ruled by foreigners”. Are you saying that Hashem did not give us EY? Are you an Islamist troll? FYI, their miseries are caused, first and foremost, by their corrupt “leadership” that steals aid monies, denies basic human rights and keeps them in a fantasy world. In fact, George Deek, Israel’s vice-ambassador to Norway and an Arab from Yaffo made a speech calling for them to accept the fact of Israel’s existence and move on (the speech is available on-line). Most Arabs who hold Israeli citizenship apparently know deep down on which side their bread is buttered as polls show that hey would not exchange Israeli citizenship for Palestinian citizenship.
Flatbusher, when the first Gulf War broke out the chevruta of a friend of mine received a frantic call from his mother. After she calmed down she very matter-of-factly told him that his brother was robbed at gunpoint.
Charlie, what is the difference except to the police who have to have a motive before they can try to solve it, the ADA who has to decide whether or not to ask for a sentence a hate crime and the judge who has to decide whether or not to so sentence them? If c”v they had been injured they would have been just as injured as if they had been targeted as Jews.
MM,
1. If one holds that it is prohibited to walk on an part of HHB because of tumat met then walking there is not behaving like a Jew. In any case, IMHO before we can ask to go up on HHB we have to learn how to act in shul, the mikdash me’at.
2. I would shake hands with (male) goy who says “Am Yisrael Chai” even not on HHB.
Golfer, do you think that she will be in sem her whole life? BTW, did you hear about the firebomb attack on W. 37th St. near 9th Ave. BTW, when I was a new immigrant and told someone in my ulpan who was from France that I was from the Bronx she asked how I could live in such a dangerous place.
Joseph, you are over on the sin of the spies.
1. The question is in English not Yiddish.
2. If it is every day there might be a problem of becoming too friendly. of course, you can start include another woman. Then they will talk to each other the whole time.
3. Where is the halacha that men and women must address each other by their last names found (see Taanit 20b that Rav Ada bar Ahava ascribed his long life to not addressing people by their last names)? What did Jews do before the authorities required them to take last names? Did they say “Mrs. Golda” (cf. Rav Ovadia) or perhaps like the English “Mrs. Yossi”?
What about all the shootings in American schools?
DY, what he said and what he did were two different things. Considering the Nazi leaderships unhappiness with Vom Rath because of his extracurricular activities he might even have been assassinated by a Nazi who would escape and let them blame it on the Jews. This worked with the Reichstag fire. In any case, in real time a person has to make a decision. Inaction also has consequences. This is one of the lessons of the story of Kamtza and Bar Kamtza.
MW, I already answered you. The mitzva to conquer EY is on Am Yisrael not one an individual. Both Rav Shlomo Aviner and Rav Eliezer Melamed have made this clear. In fact, according to Rashi (Gittin 8b d”h kibush yachid) a personal conquest is not even considered a conquest.
Joseph, I thought that that was an answer. I am not only hoping that we gain those areas but confident that we will. I would prefer that it come through peaceful means.
DY, what about the Jewish partisans and the Warsaw ghetto rebels as well as rebels in other ghettos and concentration camps? Was Walter Rathenau was responsible for his own assassination by negotiating the Treaty of Rapallo? Are Jews who participate in civic life responsible for anti-Semitic charges of “taking over” and Jews who do not for accusations of “clannishness”?
You remind me of the story of two Jews who were going to be shot for “economic crimes” in the former Soviet Union. One said to the officer in charge “I have the right to a last cigarette”. His fellow said “Don’t make trouble”.
Joseph, I am certain that we will also get part of southern Turkey, Iraq and the Sinai. Perhaps one or more of the Ten Tribes will form a state or states and then be revealed.The origin of the Kurds is obscure (you can google “Jewish origin of Kurds”) and the Druze claim descent from Yitro. Both groups are friendly towards Israel.
MW,
1. Rav Avraham Shapira and Rav Shaul Yisraeli were alive until a few years ago. Is that “now” enough for you? How about Rav Dov Lior? He is still alive (until 120). Ditto Rav Shmuel Eliahu.
2. FYI, I live in a settlement in the Binyamin area.
3. The above mitzva is incumbent on Klal Yisrael not on any individual. As I am nichba bakeilim I am waiting for the IDF or the Shabach to demand my services.
MW13,
1. Ramban says it (Sefer HaMitzvot, Mitzvot that Rambam “forgot”). According to the Or HaChaim HaKadosh (Devarim 30,20) and the Avnei Nezer (Yoreh Deah 454,6)
Rambam actually agrees that it is a mitzva in our time but did not list it as one of the Taryag because of his technical rules for counting mitzvot. Rav Avraham Shapira and Rav Shaul Yisraeli thus ruled that it is prohibited to give land even for peace.
2. I do not think that they need any special provocation. Our existence is provocation. However, if they think that nothing will be gained they will abstain from action. This was proven in the years after the Six Day War when a Jew could walk alone and unarmed in any Arab city without being harmed. They knew what they would do if c”v they were on top and presumed that we would do the same (this inability to realize that not everyone thinks like oneself is, in fact, very common).
3. You copied it over so you bear responsibility unless you are totally deficient in Hebrew.
Mobico, the oaths do not imply any such thing. They are only a statement of the fact that there was a decree of galut. The fact of the matter is that every action and non-action is equally provocative. If we keep to ourselves we are clannish and if we try to participate in the general civic life we are trying to take over. We invented both capitalism (never mind that Adam Smith was a Scotsman) and communism (never mind that Marx had been baptized as a child and was anti-Semitic). The real reason was given by our greatest enemy in modern times who wrote that he hated us because we represent morality. In other words, violent anti-Semitism is simply Amalekiut and not dependent on what we do or do not do.