Avi K

HaKatan,

1. Did you hear the news from Paris and the announcement about the capitals that are next in line?

2. Zionism has not increased the hatred of anyone towards us. It has just given another excuse (clannish, trying to take over their countries, not bwanting to be involved in theircountries, communism, capitalism, etc., etc.).

DY, it is also a mitzva to go into the IDF. This is a milchemet mitzva (Rambam Hilchot Melachim 5:1)!

Softwords,

1. I disagree with your assessment of the majority of the DL community.

2. On the contrary, the Gemara requires a man to teach his son a trade. In our thime this means secular subjects. Moroever, Rabbenu Bechaye and the Gra said that a person cannot be considered wise if he does not possess seven fields of secular wisdom (among them math, astronomy and music). The Maharal’s talmid muvchak, Rabbi David Ganz, was an associate of Tycho Brahe. The Netziv closed the yeshiva because the Russian government wanted to gradually eliminate religious studies. In contrast, the Pressburg yeshiva had an arrangement by which talmidim were exempted from the draft as theological students in exchange for passing the external baccalaureate (something like an academic high school diploma) exams.

3. Peace does not mean not disagreeing or not giving mussar. On the contrary, “????? ?????” is next to “????? ???? ????”. If pointed debating is friction (and BTW, I heard from one of his talmidim that Rav Gustman said that in Grodno it was permitted to call one’s chevruta any name except “baal bayit”) than let their be friction. However, my experience is that Chareidim and DL have no problem davening in each other’s shuls. Some Chareidim will not eat by DL but from what I have heard from Chareidi rabbanim this is am haaratzut (see Mishna Berura 318:2 that b’diavad one may rely on opinions that one does not generally accept). Marriages are also rare but that is also true regarding Litvaks and Chassidim as well asAshkenazi and Sephardi chareidim (among DL this si not an issue at all). This has already been discussed on another thread.

Neville, we thank Hashem for what we have received and pray to go forward.

Flatbusher, it depends on how well and where one wants to live. The same is tru in America but tuition costs are breaking people no matter where they live. I have a friend who has a son who is a lawyer and a rav who has a talmid who is a CPA, both in the US. Both are just barely making it.

Health, Rav Eidelstein of Ponevich said that anyone who is eligible to vote and does not do so has no portion in Olam HaBa.

You got in wrong again, Joseph. The Central Bureau of Statistics does not keep records on ethnic background, only on country of birth. It is widely believed that slightly more that half of Israeli Jews are Sepharadim or from the Eidot HaMizrach although being that there are many “intermarriages” that is difficult to determine. Anyway, I know someone who holds that jeans are the only Jewish garment today as they were invented by a Jew (Levi Strauss).

Apushatayid, he was executed by a bet din after all of the conditions were met. That is to say, besides two kosher witnesses and warning he said “?? ??? ??” (Rambam, Hilchot Sanhedrin 12,2).

HaKatan,

1. “One who has been killed by non-Jews is buried in his clothes, so that his blood may be seen and avenged… In other words, the clothes of the Jew acquire a certain sanctity when spattered with the blood of a martyr. How much more is this so of the Blue and White flag, which has been immersed in the blood of thousands of young Jews who fell in the War of Independence defending the country and the population… It has a spark of sanctity that flows from devotion and self-sacrifice. We are all enjoined to honor the flag and treat it with respect”, (Rabbi Soloveitchik, Five Addresses, p.139). This certainly not true of a football team. So far as America has shared values with Am Yisrael (this is an essay in itself) fighting for America, especially in WW2, might give the flag some special significance but not kedusha as it is mainly a non-Jewish symbol (don’t forget, Jews make up less than 2% of the American population).

2. “Something like”? Rav Tzvi Yehuda (Kook) said that religious Zionism is a redundancy because our religiosity makes us Zionist and our Zionism is rooted in religion.

3. Who says?

Rwndk1, I do not know where you live or how you define DL. In my yishuv community there is a variation but the extremes are not numerous and the left extreme are virtually all young people who have one foot into the Chiloni world (unlike the Chareidi community, which pushes kids away with both hands for much more minor deviations the DL community tries to keep them in as much as possible so that they will not wind up like Gehazi and Yushki – see Sanhedrin 107b decensored edition). The vast majority of the women cover their hair, wear long sleeves (or at least to the elbow – which the Mishna Berura allows) and long skirts (actually I heard that in Mea Shearim they banned skirts to the ground as a “Mizruchnik” custom). Some have TV but my impression is that most do not, or if they do only in the parents’ room). I do not know about Internet but it could be that those who do not general filters (as opposed to specific filters such as Adblock) were frustrated with their overkill (I have had sites blocked because of normal words that have groups of letters that also form “flag” words).

The fact of the matter is that there is no one DL hashkafa or lifestyle. There are many, each with its own nuances (Merkaz, Har HaMor, Bar-Ilan, kibbutzim, moshavim, etc.).

As for the Chareidi yeshivot and seminaries to which you send your children, they are getting the disadvantages of no secular education, an anti-work hashkafa and ingratitude towards the state that subsidizes them. So don’t judge peopel just because they sin differently than you.

Joseph, now you are changing the subject. rabbinic courts are another story but in order for them to be able to impose the death penalty the Bet HaMikdash would have to be rebuilt and semicha renewed. Even then, the evidentiary requirements would more or less preclude imposing it in practice.

Wrong, Joseph. Since Avnei Nezer Yoreh Deah 312,49 where he explicitly states that the king has no business punishing Shabbat violators.

Regarding working for the government, what happened to civil society? In any case, there are three sheetot regarding how we can be a light unto the nations:

1. According to Rav Shimshon Raphael Hirsch it means being scattered among them until Mashiach comes.

2. According to Rav Kook (and expounded further by Rav Zalman Melamed) it means kibbutz galuyot, establishing a state in EY and being part of the community of nations.

3. According to the YU sheeta there ar two centers, the US and Israel.

HaKatan, kol haposel b’mumo posel. Aggadata is not Halacha. In fact, Rambam (Intro/ to Perek Chelek) says that it is all metaphoric. Even regarding halachic statements, not everything is paskened.

1. The Three Oaths (@Simcha, actually they are at the end of Ketubot)are not mentioned in any of the halachic codes.

2. Rav Chaim Vital says (Intro. to Sefer Etz Chaim) that they were only for 1,000 years.

3. Rav Meir Simcha says that since the San Remo Conference establishing a Jewish state in EY is not rebellion.

4. The goyim violated their part of the bargain not to persecute us “too much” on several occasions (the Crusades, Gezerot Tach v’Tat, the pogroms, the Holocaust). Thus, the deal is off.

5. Rav Soloveichik says (Kol Dodi Dofek) that Hashem has called.

We do not concede that they have ever been practical halacha. we merely ad that even if they were they are no longer in force.

In Israel it is almost never happens that there are shidduchim betwen different groups and even sub-groups (e.g Ashkenazi and Sepharadi Chareidim, Lithuanian and Chassidic, etc.). I think that his is simply because there is such a wide choice that people can be more choosy.

In the political arena there are some tentative moves to unite the Chareidi and Chardal camps. The social and economic differences are also lessening as more Chareidi men are going into the IDF (albeit in Chareidi frameworks) and into the general job market (usually but not always in Chareidi frameworks). I heard from Rav Yeshayahu Steinberger in the names of both Rav Kook and Rav Soloveichik that this is the union of Yosef’s stick and Yehuda’s stick (Yechezkel 37:19). Yosef represents involvement in the general society (Mizrahi) and Yehuda, who established the settlement in Goshen, represents the establishment of a state within a state (Aguda).

HaKatan, you accused the RZ of idolatry thre times and added “heresy”. Kol ha posel b’mumo posel. In fact, the Gra (quoted by his talmid Rabbi Hillel Rivlin in “Kol HaTor”) and Rav Teichtal (“Em HaBanim Semeicha”) say that the sin of the meraglim will infect many who who hold onto the Tora. In fact, you and your cohorts use the same arguments they used.

Sorry, Joseph. The (Yoreh Deah 312,48) says that the king can only punish those who are over on mitzvoth ben adam l’chaveiro and that he has no business with mechallelei Shabbat.

I would organize aliya flights including transfer of businesses and other assets. The question is whether the non-Jewish population would consider this interfering with them as some will no longer be employed by Jews but the new gentile owners of assets that can only be sold rather than transferred will keep them on the payroll.

Neville, you are wrong so I will correct you. The Gra held that Chol HaMoed is an ot and did not wear tefillin them. Those in Chul who follow his minhagim do not either. There are several questions where he simply agreed with the Bet Yosef such as how many berachotto say on tefillin and when to duchan.

Health, how do you define “almost” and to which of various pre-nups are you referring?

Taking off a tag might be makkeh b’patish if you would not wear the garment with the tag. Opening the bag might be tikun keli depending on how the bag was made and if you would use it for other things. The best thing to do is to rip it such that it is not reusable.

Joseph, I read in several places that the Chazon Ish said that those with Down’s syndrome and the autism are the souls of tzaddikim to facilitate our soul correction. They need no soul correction, that’s why they lack free choice. However, I do not know if this means that they are holier than nevi’im particularly in the sense of the English word. In fact, I do not know ho we can make such comparisons. Is a mamzer who is a talmid chacham more kadosh than a Cohen Gadol who is an am ha’aretz? In the sense of his Tora yes but in the sense of his lineage no.

What about HaKatan? Is your last name Howard? Or perhaps Marx?

Health, YAWN.

Feivel,

1. That Shir HaMaalot talks about our return to EY. Very Zionist.

2. That is, in fact, Rav Kook’s interpretation of Rambam.

Health,don’t let the facts confuse you. You remind me of the gabbai who could not believe that his father died. Every Shabbat he gave him an aliya and even said “Amen” before and after the reading. When they told the Gerrer rebbe about it he said “Tell him to give his father hagba’ah”.

Health, we have the death penalty for Nazi war criminals as well as for treason and certain crimes under military law during wartime.

Rabbi, why do you rarely say Tachanun. Are you a mohel or a davener with one? Tehillim 126 is special because it speaks of our return to EY:

??? ?????? ???? ?’

?? ???? ???? ????? ???????.

?? ???? ???? ????

??????? ????

?? ????? ?????? –

????? ?’, ????? ?? ???.

????? ?’ ????? ???? –

????? ?????.

???? ?’ ?? ???????

??????? ????

??????? ?????, ????? ??????.

???? ??? – ??? ????

???? ??? ????.

??? ????, ???? ????? –

???? ????????.

You can google “Rav Kook on Psalm 126”.

DY, I dispute your statement. Of course, it depends on whom you count as gedolim.

Feivel, Eretz Yisrael is part of Am Yisrael. It is the only place where we can develop our national potential. (Rav Kook at the beginning of “Orot”).

Health @ Co., did you ever read “1984”? Apparently you have formed a frum Ministry of Truth. If you google “Haj Amin al-Husseini biography” you will find that according to the Wikipedia and the Encyclopedia Britannica he was born in 5657. Other sources give his year of birth as no earlier than 5753. With the outbreak of WW1 he became an officer in the Ottoman army. I seriously doubt if he had any contact at all with Jews during his childhood and youth.

As for memories of general relations between Jews and Arabs, there is also a Yiddish song song that praises Romania, which was virulently anti-Semitic and whose governments repeatedly violated treaties they themselves had signed regarding treatment of Jewish citizens. Of course, just as there were individual Romanians who worked for Jews and thus had to be friendly so too there were individual Arabs who worked for Jews. Moreover, as I previously posted, Emir Faisal supported the Zionist movement and even signed a formal agreement with Chaim Weizman. Two weeks prior to signing the agreement, Faisal stated:

“The two main branches of the Semitic family, Arabs and Jews, understand one another, and I hope that as a result of interchange of ideas at the Peace Conference, which will be guided by ideals of self-determination and nationality, each nation will make definite progress towards the realization of its aspirations. Arabs are not jealous of Zionist Jews, and intend to give them fair play and the Zionist Jews have assured the Nationalist Arabs of their intention to see that they too have fair play in their respective areas. Turkish intrigue in Palestine has raised jealousy between the Jewish colonists and the local peasants, but the mutual understanding of the aims of Arabs and Jews will at once clear away the last trace of this former bitterness, which, indeed, had already practically disappeared before the war by the work of the Arab Secret Revolutionary Committee, which in Syria and elsewhere laid the foundation of the Arab military successes of the past two years.”

The areas discussed were detailed in a letter to Felix Frankfurter, President of the Zionist Organisation of America, on 3 March 1919, when Faisal wrote :

“The Arabs, especially the educated among us, look with the deepest sympathy on the Zionist movement. Our deputation here in Paris is fully acquainted with the proposals submitted yesterday by the Zionist Organization to the Peace Conference, and we regard them as moderate and proper.” (from the Wikipedia article on the Faisal-Weizman agreement, which also contains the text of the agreement).

It stands to reason that Faisal’s followers would have been friendly towards the Jews. However, the Mufti ym”s CHOSE to destroy all hope of peaceful co-existence in order to further his own personal political ambitions. The fault lies not with the Zionists, who were Hashem’s tools as Rav Kook says, but with the Mufti ym”s and Sir Herbert Samuel, who appointed him despite the fact that he finished last behind three Nashashibi candidates (Samuel wanted to maintain a balance between the two clans so he appointed the above rasha as Mufti and Raghib al-Nashashibi as Mayor of Yerushalayim).