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November 25, 2017 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1411122
I wanted to apologise if I’ve been harsh or insulting. If I came across that way it was completely unintended and the only posts that may have been written that way were coming from a sense of shock that you wouldn’t know something I thought was famous, or that a chossid could express himself in such a manner. Either way it’s actually a sign of high regard, and I apologise in case I came across otherwise.November 25, 2017 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1411121
A gutte voch! As I said I will have a very busy week, so I’m really glad moshiachchat is helping out. And I’m also really glad sechel hayashar is on this chat so you can all kind of see the prototypes of the deios etc.
A few clarifications etc…
A friend of mine who has been following this thread with interest commented to me that when I contrast Daas with Bina an quote the maamarei chazal of nashim daaton Kalos and Bina yeseira nitna lisha, it’s quite likely that people here don’t know the difference between Chochma, Bina and daas an so I look like I’m insulting myself and all women to boot. So I should probably clarify:
Chochma is like a flash of lightning but intellectually. Like when you snap your fingers and shout, “Oh I got it!” But then then you say give me a minute because you need to concentrate to bring the idea down from a nucleus to a full understanding.
That process of taking the Chochma and developing it into a full understanding by both length and breath is Bina. Men have Bina and women have Bina yeseira. Obviously there can be exceptions but that is the rule.
Daas there are a few aspects. It is the bridge between sechel and middos. It’s about taking the intellectual abstract concept and making it personally relevant so that you can feel for it. Like you can know there is a rubber in the world and he is dangerous. And all the details of how he’s dangerous. That’s Chochma and Bina.
When you realize he’s on your block, that’s Daas. Then you feel the emotions. So this application aspect, women are really good. We love making everything practical.
The aspect we’re weak at is the weighing and contrasting the every possible hypothetical scenario before making a decision for someone else. Like what a Rav has to do. Or what you have to remember when you learn gemara.
Two exceptions: And first of all, doesn’t say we don’t have any Daas, just that it isn’t as strong as a man.
Also, if I have a vested interest, youd better believe my Daas will get really strong. That’s why there are complicated gemaras where the Tannaim and Amoraim who were incredibly brilliant, grappled with the complicated questions that women brought in taharas Hamishpacha. Since there was a vested interest, the women would be able to ask such crazy questions that even the Chachmei hagemara grappled with.
I think this is long, so I’ll continue soon.November 25, 2017 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1411124
@whoever felt I was insulting or digging at non lubavitchers
That was completely not my intention. Sometimes it can be hard to balance pride and excitement in my derech without coming across that way, but I have tried. In case I was misunderstood, let me just say I really respect the Satmar for their extra sense of aidelkeit that comes with bring shut off from the world.
I respect Lakewood for their extreme devotion to limud haTorah, and applaud their hard working wives.
I respect the general frum world for their ehrlichkeit…
Yes sometimes my emotions overwhelm my intellect so thanks to the males here for balancing that. I would like to think I add a balance with a woman’s natural tendencies of Bina yeseira, rakus, and excitement (middos) to what my be otherwise a combative, cold logic conversation, but In case that isn’t needed here, I’m happy to bow out and leave this to the learning professionals:):)
One more point: the whole debate is quite silly because it’s kind of a moot point until someone can bring an example of a leader in our generation who can rival the Lubavitcher Rebbe. And before you list names, make sure you know who the Rebbe is and was. If anyone can manage to find another gadol who has as much influence and care for every Jew as the Rebbe did, (and Joseph here if where I disagree and think the Rebbe changed much for the frum world as well, with regards to how they relate to their fellow not yet frum Yidden), then we can really discuss. Until then, even sechel hayashar would agree that no one can really replace the Rebbe as an actual candidate to be Moshiach.
If there will ever be someone who fits that bill, I’m sure the meshichists will sit up and take notice as well, and really, all everyone of us wants is just that Moshiach come asap!November 25, 2017 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1411125
Lastly, for everyone that is shaking their heads at how we were left without direction CVS, you should all know that the Rebbe definitely knew what was coming and prepared us for it. If you want to know how, we’ll be happy to explain. I’m referring to the sichos of Koach Nissan 5751 and gimmel tammuz sicha (not sure the year but the one about even though it looks like a heelam vhester, it’s really ischalta dgeula) respectively. The chassidim of the time understandably didn’t want to get the message, but we definitely have our path set out for us until Moshiach is revealed to all, iyh this year:)November 25, 2017 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1411126
@sechelhayashar because until the world is in a geula state the full depths of Toraso shel Moshiach cannot be revealed, as explained in many places that you can probably quote me. Until then, we can just have a meayn. Hope your mivtzoim went well:)November 25, 2017 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1411127
I find it disturbing that one of the examples you brought as mesiras nefesh is not being a loving husband because Hashem comes first?! I believe Hashem gave the mitzvah if oina. Care to explain?November 24, 2017 10:20 am at 10:20 am in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1410932
@Daasyochid That is patently incorrect that no one else considered the Rebbe a tzaddik by this definition except for us. Would you like to hear names? Or are you not really asking but merely protesting?November 24, 2017 10:19 am at 10:19 am in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1410927
@slominer see what I answered Joseph above on the same issue. If you have further questins, Ill be happy to answerNovember 24, 2017 8:50 am at 8:50 am in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1410876
@sechelhayashar my husband also didn’t know offhand, so I asked some friends who are buki in nun aleph nun beis, and someone said try nun aleph- tazria metzora. Since I’m just waiting for my challa to rise, I treated myself to look it up, and it’s in ois yud beis.November 23, 2017 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1410759
@slominer oy you completely missed my point! The point was that even if we would need to suffer for learning chassidus, because more would be expected from us as a result, I would do it. Can’t get enough of it.November 23, 2017 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1410757
@put down the gun
Fascinating point because the Rebbe says straight out that Mordechai was the Moshe of his generation. Wow lots of things to research here… When an I gonna do it all? Any volunteers to help me out? Lol I’ll do my best but got a buddy week ahead. I’ll put it in my list of things to do though.November 23, 2017 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1410736
Really? You’ve never even heard of it? That’s the problems with these yeshivas they teach the convenient sichos that can be explained away… I’ve not only heard of it but seen it myself. It’s in one of the nun aleph nun beis… Will let you know an exact source iyh @slominer here is where my husband comes inNovember 23, 2017 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1410738
@sechel hayashar nice! You recall I said chet as chisaron in the beginning of this thread? But good to know an exact source, thanks!November 23, 2017 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1410734
@sechelhayashar interesting but I want referring to the ones in Israel, I was referring to the ones that go to the farthest reaches of the planet. Youknow who takes the most crazy shlichus positions in rural India etc. Yeah it’s those crazy Meshichists. Seems their chayus helps them out,.November 23, 2017 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1410731November 23, 2017 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1410729
@ meno it’s all the same. Chabad is an acronym for Chochma Bina Daas, because Chananya chassidus was written in a way to be understood and applied practically.
Lubavitch is the town in Russia which was the seat of chabad chassidus for years. Incidentally, Lubavitch means City of love.November 23, 2017 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1410727
“What does learning “Chasidus” mean and entail?”
For practical purposes let’s say starting with learning Tanya is a good start.
“What is Chasidus (does it include seforim from non-Chabad Chasidishe Rebbes/talmidei chachamim) and why would non-Chasidim learn it?”
There are non Chabad chassidus sefarim but as it is not written in Chabad fashion, you would need to learn Chabad chassidus to understand that too. Not sure if not chassidim learn the chassidus of other kreizen.
“How’s it different than non-Chasidish seforim?”
Well that’s a great range lol. Generally, because it’s pnimiyus haTorah so it gives the neshama view. For example, say parshas korach- mefarshim will be debating the technicalities of what korachs complaints were and how the story happened, chassidus will address the underlying dynamic of what does this represent in our avodas Hashem? Because everything in Torah is a lesson for us. Torah milashon horaah. For some chassidus on the parsha, try likutei sichos-the first four volumes especially are referred to as the basics. Others have more shakla vtarya. I actually go on a spiritual high when I delve into a sicha with a chevrusa. It’s awesome. I didn’t think I would say that before but now that hopefully I’ve given you cause to believe I’m a rational person, I can tell you about my sicha highs.
“As a practical matter, is it widely learnt by non-chasidim?”
Yeah.November 23, 2017 9:15 pm at 9:15 pm in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1410717
Re olam habo: there’s a story of a chossid who entered into yechidus with either the Rebbe Rashab or Rebbe Mayarash and said Rebbe it’s not fair. As Lubavitchers we have it worse off in this world and olam having!
The Rebbe motioned how?
Imagine a Poilisher chossid. He tells his wife he’s going to the Rebbe, and she’s all happy because he’ll get them. Less of brachos so she packs him a nice bag and off he goes. He gets to the Rebbe such inspiration watching the Rebbe daven the Rebbe’s Tish etc. A mechaye. Before he leaves he gets brachos from the Rebbe and off he goes.
After 120 years he comes to shomayim and they ask him what’s with your davening? Learning? Etc. Here says he’s from the chassidim that live by the emuna of their Rebbe. He’s dismissed to gan Eden.
Meanwhile a lubavitcher wants to go to the Rebbe and he barely escapes as his wife is upset he’s leaving again. No lunch. Gets to lubavitch tries to hear a few words of the Rebbe’s maamar, the place is packed he can’t really hear.
He goes into yechidus forgets all his physical work and asks how to serve Hashem better.
After 120 years, he comes to shomayim, the Malachim ask him Nu who are you? He says he’s a lubavitcher. They say, ah. Your Rebbe taught you plenty of how to serve Hashem in your own. So let’s see where your Ahavas Hashem, yiras Hashem? Not exactly up to par. They send him to gehennom.
But, the chossid continues, I would never exchange my gehennom for their gan Eden…November 23, 2017 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1410670
@slominer actually funnily enough I gave my first underground chassidus shiur there on a maamar in derech mitzvosecha I think it was, when I was 19. The next night there was a lchaim of a friend of mine from there but I was not allowed to greet anyone from the shiur as it was apparently a big deal if they’d be caught.November 23, 2017 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1410668
@yw mods thanks so much for allowing and facilitating this discussion, much appreciated to see this openmindedness to understanding our path…November 23, 2017 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1410669November 23, 2017 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1410658
א”ין כל* חיוב *כלל* לחפש מיהו משיח וכו’ אבל *מ”ע מה”ת:* [מצות עשה מן התורה] אהבת *כאו”א* [כל אחד ואחד] מישראל ושלילת המחלוקת וכו’ *בתכלית* – ופשיטא שלא לעשות במזיד הפכו *וד”ל* [ודי למבין].”
Thanks for sharing! 1000%!! But why do you think the Rebbe gave so those very obvious hints in the nuns? You have to look up the context but it seems this letter was written to some overzealous chassidim who were trying to lord it over everyone that the Rebbe is Moshiach… If you ask why I’m sharing here, well quite simply it seems the Meshichistim Israelis have done a great job at letting the cat out of the bag, and mostly in a way of Oirois dTohu. So what’s left for us is to pick up the pieces, bkeilim dtikkun. I don’t think you’re not spending another it means the oilam doesn’t know what the majority of Lubavitch think, aderabe by your (and I mean your as a klal not you as a yochid as you spoke up, albeit reluctantly) silence, your letting them think we have no basis and we’re all simply crazy
…November 23, 2017 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1410666
Interesting about the maamar. I got my answer but I should look this up over Shabbos.
so you have no problem with the Rebbe saying in Basi lgani that the Frierdiker Rebbe will be moshiach, but you have a problem with the Rebbe saying that Rebbe will be moshiach? Especially as you know I’m the nuns when the Rebbe said Nossi doreinu would be Moshiach, he said the author of likutei sichos, and that was not the Frierdiker Rebbe, so I don’t get why you even think that’s an answer as to do you selectively learn what for with your comfortable beliefs?
“if you look it up you’ll see what I’m saying, even a woman can understand it:)”
Ummm… This would make me suspect your credentials as a bonafide lubavitcher much more than your understandings of the sichos… But thanks for the vote of confidence I suppose.
As far as the ikkar-agreed I’ve mentioned that many times.
As far as the non joke- if the source is the Alter Rebbe then youre right it’s inappropriate to call it a joke. Didn’t know where it was fromNovember 23, 2017 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1410656
@gaon no I’m sure there was much much more to it but there’s books to read and I’m not supposed to write one in one post. My point in bringing up that incident was to show that even though the Gra sincerely meant well, he accepted misinformation. And if he only would have agreed to meet the Alter Rebbe instead of running away, the whole conflict would have been avoided. (I watched a video of his descendent testifying to the above. That the Gra saw the Alter Rebbe through the keyhole of his door in Vilna, and realized there was so much kedusha there that he would have become a chossid, so instead he ran away, jumped out a window or something and the meeting never happened: ()November 23, 2017 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1410643
@yiddishekop the first chassidim were definitely not am haaratzim. If you’d like to know where to read the history I’ll be happy to direct you.
As far as the peyes afaik, it’s because according the the kabbala of the Arizal, they should be short. Don’t know why everyone else wears them long, would love to know if anyone does know, please lmkNovember 23, 2017 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1410639
@gaon. I looked it up. Yeah I know the difference between speech and breath-that wasn’t my question. My question was: I know the experience of the nivra part of my neshama because when I feel love towards Hashem, I feel myself as a separate entity loving Hashem. My question was if my essence is one with Hashem, Borei, how do I get in touch with that party of myself?November 23, 2017 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1410641
“So in summary…”
“1) You’re estimating an overwhelming majority of Lubavitchers believe the Rebbe is Moshiach (regardless of what terms you use to call anyone.)”
Yes, or they think they haven’t yet seen or heard of anyone else who could take him over, so he remains the best candidate.
2) “Even non-meshichists believe the Rebbe is Moshiach, but the only difference they have with meshichists is that the non-meshichists don’t think non-Lubavitchers should be told to the truth that the Rebbe is Moshiach whereas the meshichists want to make sure even non-Lubavitchers are told this fact.”
It’s not about hiding the truth. Ask any lubavitcher and if they sense you are sincere they will be happy to discuss their beliefs with you. They just don’t go running around spreading them uncalled for.
“3) Some (but not all) non-meshichists don’t believe the Rebbe is Moshiach.”
Yeah as seen courtesy of SH
“4) Nowadays there is little real ideological differences of view between meshichists and non meshichists. It’s mostly a difference in tactics of spreading the message.”
Well I don’t subscribe to many of SHs views so no not really
What’s the deal with “Yechi…”? Who says it, who doesn’t, and what do Lubavitchers think of the Yechi issue.”
Well definitely only Meshichistim say it. Even within Meshichistim there are many who have stopped saying it because it’s become politicized by the more extreme bochurim who take over 770 and use it as their excuse to commit all kinds of narishkeit. Some will only say it within a Lubavitch community that says Yechi, and Israeli shluchim will tend to say it within their communities as well…November 23, 2017 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1410654
“Just wanted to sincerely ask as someone who knows a lot about chabad and has spent unfortunately too much time in crown heights, why is it ok to stop in middle of davening kabbalas shabbos to Hashem, in the middle of lecha Dodi, to start jumping up and down fervently and sing yechi adoneinu for TEN minutes at the top of your lungs towards the Rebbes chair in 770!”
Firstly it’s not in the middle, it’s afterwards until tzeis:) let’s be accurate here.
“Quite honestly would you do that if you truly saw the Rebbe in front of you? Do you think he would wave you on?”
Well quite honestly, the frenzy of Yechi was really after the stroke and yes the Rebbe did wave them on…
Would I personally? No but I’m in a different generation and once Moshiach comes there won’t be a need so it’s really irrelevant. The chassidim started the whole Yechi singing for long periods of time when the Rebbe had the stole because they thought maybe this would break through this heelem vhester and then the Rebbe could be revealed as Moshiach once and for all. Unfortunately, they really missed the whole point of famous koach Nissan sicha, where the Rebbe was so upset… But that’s for another time. But it seems that’s why gimmel tammuz happened. Anyhow…
“I don’t care that it’s meschichist tzfatim, this goes over the line and it’s happening in front of your eyes.”
Yeah I use the extra time to say my chitas or catch up to the minyan. Seriously, do you want me to tell at them from the ladies section?? And anyhow they don’t listen to anyone
“The Rebbe at one point even scolded people looking at him during davening and was very emotional about it.”
What does this have to do with singing Yechi in between parts of davening?
“And you dare to pull this off in middle of davening!”
Most of us roll our eyes the first time, but then we get used to it and learn a sicha or something. Anyhow these are the bochurim who get violent for the most part so I wouldn’t advise you to yell at them. That’s what the court case is all about apparently, stuff like thatNovember 23, 2017 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1410264
“Emunah is NOT an emotion. That would validate every belief system out there. Emunah is rooted in absolute knowledge. Much as the uman (aleph – mem – nun) KNOWS his profession, so too the one with emunah (its root being, once again, aleph – mem – nun) is one with complete KNOWLEDGE, NOT FAITH-based and certainly not emotion-based belief, of HaShem’s existence”
Actually, emuna is based in the heart, not the mind, so that makes it an emotion. And that’s why women are stronger with emuna, because emotion is a woman’s strength. There are emotions that are irrational, below logic. And emotions that are suprarational- above logic. Emuna is the latter. And to prove it, that’s why yedias hadhem and emunas Hashem are counted as two separate mitzvos. Yedias Hashem- you need to lea re n as much as you can understand about Hashem and as much as makes sense. Emunas Hashem- you need to believe in whatever is too lofty for you to understand.
That’s why no one says I believe the is a sun-because you know it, so you don’t have to believe it.
Arguably, the way to properly fulfill these two mitzvos, is by learning chassidus which teaches all about Hashem in an understandable fashion and teaches you what there is about Hashem that is above our understanding.November 23, 2017 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1410258
“Is there a way to join this elite/chosen group? If so
I don’t like your choice of words as I don’t think like that but I understand why you use them. We use the terms front lines, because every group in klal Yisrael is needed and adds as discussed. If you are being serious, then just know that when Moshiach comes he will thank every You for their part in bringing him ie making the world a G-dly place.
If you’d like to join the front lines I’d suggest to do whatever you can to help and be mekarev your fellow Jews, such as inviting not yet frum Yidden over for Shabbos, there are loads of things that anyone can do in that direction it’s just a mindset- help as many Yidden as you can do as many mitzvos as possible.
Work on yourself but don’t wait till you’re perfect before you help others. “If you know an aleph, teach an aleph”
Sulearn as much as you can about the geula and what you can do to bring it. I highly suggest the 2sefarim set of shaarei geula-hoemuna vhatzifia, and shaarei geula-hoemuna ymos haMoshiach. The more you know the more motivated you will be.
Learn chassidus so that you will be in touch with what your neshama is and who you really are, so that you don’t have an identity crisis when Moshiach comes, and you will enjoy the process so much more, and you will be able to identify all the giluim that you were just learning about till then, ie you will know what you are experiencing.November 23, 2017 3:35 pm at 3:35 pm in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1410249
@daasyochid here it seems you missed the point. Did you get the term tzaddik? And besides many many gedolei yisrael visited the Rebbe. But it seems to me you are just lacking an awareness of who the Rebbe is. That is definitely fixable but that’s up to you.November 23, 2017 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1410246
“As a self-described “avowed non-mesichist” who nevertheless you say you believe that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is Moshiach and you believe that “zt’l” should not be said when mentioning the Rebbe (for the reason that the earlier explained), how do you see yourself being different than the meshichists who you avowedly are not one of?”
I do not recall describing myself as a self annoyed non Meshichist. In fact, I like most girls, really don’t care because it’s not the main point anyway. The point is to bring Moshiach. And this is what the Rebbe emphasized as well, although husband does remind me that I should lean more to the Meshichist side, because the Rebbe wouldn’t hint all this for nothing. At the end of the day it’s a matter of the heart. I’m happy to understand all sides, I find it quite interesting and as long as a shita makes sense, I’m happy to follow. Which is the good side of noshim daaton Kalos, I don’t have to be stuck to any one side.
“Do you find it objectionable for others to refer to the “Rebbe zt’l” or is that only something you choose not to utter?”
I choose not to pass judgement on anyone. As a saying goes the last time Moshe Rabbeinu was hidden for just a day, chet haegel happened. It is really tough, and I’m certainly not going to pass judgement on anything less than an aveira or lack of chassidishkeit.
“If so, are you trying to say that the only real difference between non-mesichists such as yourself and meshichists is which side of the 770 property dispute you believe is right — as both sides believe the Rebbe is Moshiach?”
The above should clarify. Those people fighting know that sholom jus most important, unfortunately they got sucked on by their yetzer Hara. Hope it resolves itself soon
“Is saying “Yechi” a dispute between the meshichists and non-meshichists?”
Yes although among the girls it’s not a topic that w discuss much at all, amongst the boys probably moreNovember 23, 2017 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1410269
“And I think the first one to claim there other legitimate leaders of Benei Yisroel at the time of Moshe Rabbeinu, was none other than Korach”
Not that there are other legitimate leaders, no one denies that the Shvatim or Aharon were leaders. Korachs claim was that there can be more than one Moshe Rabbeinu per generation, or that there is no need for one at all and everyone can be equal. Yes this is a very important point.November 23, 2017 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1410271
“How do meshichists and non-meshichists get along with each other religiously/hashkaficly?”
As said, nowadays, mostly fine. They might debate each other on the way they understand the Rebbe’s sichos but that’s pretty much the extent of the disagreement for the younger generation at least. The older generation tend to have stronger opinions one way or another.November 23, 2017 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1410272November 23, 2017 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1410275
“Or should I say chabadSHLIACH since it’s quite obvious you are getting information from elsewhere, or rather your husband took over for you completely. You almost had us fooled as how much more knowledgeable in Torah you lubavitch woman are than the rest of us, but that’s not my point.”
I set aside the times I feed my baby to reply to this forum. I will take your words as a compliment but no I haven’t yet asked anyone for any sources. I told you I try to learn a sicha or maamar a few times a week and there are tremendous amounts knowledge from all parts of Torah contained within. I wouldn’t say the typical lubavitcher shlucha could remember this all offhand, but I am on the academic side BH. And no my husband isn’t much of an academic so he doesn’t have much patience to read this all, least if all reply for me. Besides he teaches all day. My time is up for now but will continue responding it at my next opportunity.November 23, 2017 2:30 pm at 2:30 pm in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1410224
@ubiquitin no of course Hashem Hashem kel rachum is addressed to Hashem. They were begging Hashem to make the Rebbe better. The song is still popular because it expresses the depths of the connection between the chossid and Rebbe and touches us in a deep way.November 23, 2017 2:27 pm at 2:27 pm in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1410218
@ubiquitin I can’t have a serious in depth discussion with you if you are too impatient to read up on the background concepts because it’s too boring for you. If you just want aquick pat answer well then this song was written when the Rebbe was sick, and everyone was davening he should recover. As to the other answer, it’s a long one and involves explaining a concept which frankly would bore you as you write. So I don’t see a reason to write it up.November 23, 2017 12:02 pm at 12:02 pm in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1409920
“Off topic: I know there are/were times that the school took the children outside to wait for moshiach.”
I’ve never experienced that, and the only place I can see that happening is a preschool but ok.
“Don’t you believe in Eliyahu Hanavi coming three days before Moshiach?”
I actually taught a class on that based on a sicha where the Rebbe brings in all the relevant sources. Your welcome to look it up yourself in the Seder shaarei geula- hoemuna vhatzifia, under the section on eliyahu hanavi. It’s on Hebrew books.org.
But basically, no he doesn’t have to come beforehand. As one proof you’ve probably heard of: someone who says they won’t drink wine, ie become a nazir the day Moshiach comes, is never allowed to drink wine because Moshiach can come any day. This is Halacha. Also one of the 13 ikkarim is to await Moshiach s coming every day, and if eliyahu hanavi had to come three days before, that would mean that we shouldn’t await him every day…November 23, 2017 12:01 pm at 12:01 pm in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1409900
“One hundred and sixty nine posts later, you still have not answered what is the disagreement between the Lubavitcher “meshichists” and the Lubavitcher non-meshichists. (And what percentage of Lubavitchers are meshichists and what percent non-meshichists, in your best guess.)”
Ah an important point. Fine. So I think if you’ve been following much of the discussion, especially between me and sechel hayashar, you’ll see it’s very nuanced, and these terms can mean something else to everyone, especially my generation which never saw the Rebbe. And as it gets more nuanced, and we study more of what the Rebbe said, the differences become much more lessened until you can have today, someone like me can marry someone with the views of sechel hayashar, because we both follow the Rebbe and it’s teachings and a way of reading Rambam isn’t gonna make or break a marriage.
Whereas 20 years ago, feelings were running steering, shuls split over this, communities split over this because they were still in shock and reacting strongly to gimmel tammuz.
In general, meshichist means someone who thinks the Rebbe is Moshiach, and non meshichists means the ones who don’t.
Alternatively, meshichists are the ones who think they need to convince everyone that the Rebbe is Moshiach, and non meshichists think this is something applicable just to lubavitchers and there’s no reason to yell this loud and proud, especially without context as this is not bofen hamiskabel.
So it’s kind of tough to define to an exact number because what people can mean can be very different.
Then there’s some people like mother of shluchim was saying, who are thugs. Well there’s very harsh, another way to term them is irresponsible teens who just go after excitement, kind of like what people were talking about lots of the peleg bachurim.
Everything in discussing doesn’t apply to those people because I’m talking about a legitimate path in avodas Hashem, and obviously, immature teens who don’t learn and just create trouble, don’t qualify to me. And what I was saying about not minding my son going a bit extreme as a teen, this is definitely not what I meant. Violence is never ok, I meant taking his learning a bit over the top, like Oirois dTohu without the keilim of tikkun kind of thing.
So according to definition a) I’d think many Lubavitchers subscribes to the Meshichist description besides maybe two yeshivos- so let’s say 50% or up.
10% average- not meshichist
40% don’t really care either way. This is all the young people, and based on my experience, so it’s an opinion and I can be corrected.
According to the second definition:
Meshichists: 20-40% -ie almost all lubavitcher Israelis, and everyone else with an exception here and there, non Meshichist.November 23, 2017 11:25 am at 11:25 am in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1409772
“No, I didn’t know that, and I wonder whether anybody else outside of lubavitch does. In fact, I wonder whether R Baruch Ber himself knew of it.”
I would be happy to bring proof but the cynicism here dissuades me…November 23, 2017 11:24 am at 11:24 am in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1409766
“I was once shown in one of the classic chassidishe seforim that our job is to want to be true ovdei Hashem and NOT just to constantly ask for moshiach. I’ll try to find the source but as it definitely wasn’t in “Chassidus”, i.e. Lubavitch sources, its probably not worth anything anyway.”
No one said instead, we said as a focus and aderabe, if you really want Moshiach, you will increase your Torah and Mitzvos, not slack off. There’s a famous story, foel free to fill in on the details but the Alter Rebbe once answered some questioners on why Moshiach was not there yet, “The Moshiach everyone is asking for isn’t Moshiach. And the real Moshiach, no one wants.” Meaning, Moshiach shouldn’t be only an answer to personal or general tragedy. We should want Moshiach for the right reasons, to serve Hashem in the best possible manner as DY said, not as something to remember only when there is a tzarah.
“And is anyone going to refer me to the source of nossi hador = moshiach/Moshe Rabbeinu hador… or is there perhaps no such non-Lubavitch source?”
As an aside to an above question, there is a joke within Lubavitch that Moshiach must be a Litvak, because otherwise not all of klal Yisrael will accept him, whereas lubavitchers will be happy to accept whoever it is…November 23, 2017 11:23 am at 11:23 am in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1409747
“Sorry but I still can’t find where it says Nasi hador hu hamoshiach shebedor or anything like it. Can someone please give me an EXACT source?”
Here is the link. If it is not allowed, then just Google the above words in Hebrew and click on the chabadapedia page that comes up for a full list of sources and definitions.
Also “from what I’ve read so far the Lubavitch rebbes are the Moshe Rabbeinus of the dor because that’s what they said. Did I miss something here?”
Not to my knowledge, meaning I don’t know of another source that supports that, you obviously wouldn’t find it in gemara as it wasn’t applicable then, but I think any rational person who is looking for emes will count the Lubavitcher Rebbe as a reliable source.
“And another thing: the Tikkunei Zohar (112a) says that the ispashtuso of Moshe is in each generation “in each tzaddik and chochom who learn Torah up to [the number] 600,000”. So why does ChabadShlucha say there is only one person in each generation?”
Hmm I was not aware of that thanks for sharing! I will look into that and be happy to be corrected. I’ll lyk iyh.November 23, 2017 9:34 am at 9:34 am in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1409625
@WTP I don’t think this is deliberate, but I think you’re taking what I said the wrong way. So let me explain again. I think I was the one who pointed out there were many other legitimate leaders of BY at the time of Moshe Rabbeinu and they all had their own drachim that were legitimate paths to serve Hashem. There still was a Moshe Rabbeinu though. Also with the Rebbe- many other leaders of klal Yisrael from all walks of life came to consult with and visit the Rebbe, but they all led their flocks in their own ways, and that’s how it’s meant to be. No one said everyone is meant to be Lubavitch, there are meant to be many complementary paths to Hashem and each one supports the rest. For example, Chabad primarily focuses on outreach, while Satmar focuses on bikur cholim and chesed within the frum world. Both add, both are important and both are necessary. As stated earlier klal Yisrael is like a body, all parts need to function differently to create a healthy whole. If even the feet don’t work, the whole body, including the head, is missing out. The Rebbe once said that it’s a good thing Satmar protests Zionism so we don’t need to take that on. They do that it’s their job. Should everyone learn chassidus? Yes, as that mindset is the mindset of geula. Should everyone become a lubavitcher shliach? No we need diversity to be a healthy whole.
Now something I realized I haven’t been clear. I don’t think the 7 generation correlation was meant to say that were the only ones drawing down the shechina as that’s quite ridiculous an clearly wrong. Every time any he does a Mitzvah, he brings down more Elokus to the world. The 7 generation thing was meant to answer why us? Why are we the ones tasked to bring Moshiach? Why not a better earlier generation? We’re not even worthy and maybe not even interested… So the Rebbe brought the 7gen thing to answer that just as Moshe Rabbeinu was the one to bring down the shechina, even though the process began with Avrahom avinu, and Moshe Rabbeinu wasn’t a greater tzaddik than Avrahom avinu, he just merited this zechus because he was seventh. Same with us. We’re not amazing that we have this mission, aderabe many other generations were much better. We just merit this because we’re seventh.
So chizkiyahu was the Moshiach shebador until it failed. Don’t get what the problem is.
“Tomorrow Mashiach comes. And he is Litvish. Or Sefardi. Or a Gerrer Chassid, etc. Will you accept him?”
Of course! As long as he comes already! That’s what I’m saying this whole discussion is a side point the main thing, and this every Lubavitcher should agree on, is to bring Moshiach!!November 23, 2017 8:15 am at 8:15 am in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1409599
Anyway like I said if you don’t get who the Rebbe is and who his shluchim are, nothing makes sense. Here is a story someone just shared today, I’ve heard it before, apparently it was retold at the kinus this year, just so you get an idea…
I will share a very cute story that Rabbi Levi Garelik said at the Torah and Tea. His father was having terrible pain in his feet. He was going into New York so Mrs Garelik told him to ask the Rebbe for a brocha. He said he will not bother the Rebbe about it. Mrs Garelik wrote in that when her husband comes in for yechidus the Rebbe should please give her husband advice regarding the pain in his feet. At the end of Rabbi Gorelicks yechidus the Rebbe told him, “Regarding the pain in your feet, you should see Dr. Seligson.” Rabbi Gorelick went to see the doctor who told him that his pain was caused because he gained to much weight and it was simply too heavy for his feet to hold up. He advised him to stop eating bread during the week and only eat bread on Shabbos. For three weeks he did this and he lost his excess weight and the pain in his feet went away. The miracle was that he had never eaten bread during the week to begin with! There was no pas Yisroel bread then in Milan and his wife only made challah for shabbos. But the Rebbe told him to see Dr Seligson and the doc told him to stop eating bread during the week. Instead of telling him “I don’t think that’s gonna help.” He said ok and the miracle occurred!November 23, 2017 8:14 am at 8:14 am in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1409598
At the same time, I should say the guy who was out to insult Lubavitch actually gave a big compliment ironically. The worst thing he could find was someone trying to do a Mitzvah in the wrong time. Halevai… We’re for the most part normal people, not tzaddikim not even beinonim. Just hopefully wanna be beinonim. Hopefully we can aspire to reach the expectation that the guy who is out to get Lubavitch expects of us… We should be only involved with positive things. Lchaim!November 23, 2017 8:14 am at 8:14 am in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1409597
@sechelhayashar since you came out and said that you flat out don’t think the Rebbe can be Moshiach I’m interested in hearing if you can truly resolve that in light of dor shvii=the generation of bringing Moshiach and the Rebbe being the Nossi Hador? Or do you simply black out the sichos in your mind that may make you feel uncomfortable? I get your concerns over the Rambam- for a real understanding you should get into it with Rabbi Mann, I think you’d have an awesome learning discussion, but how would you resolve what the Rebbe said? Impress like I said, you may be living in denial? I’m actually quite curious
As far as the neherag one- yeah that is quite famous, been around so long that I think we were taught that one by a woman teacher- the same one who pointed out the dor shvii conundrum
As far as my question- I just wanted to understand- if the source of the body is higher than the neshama and the body will give the neshama it’s chayus when Moshiach comes, instead of the other way around like now, how exactly does that work? Like how is it higher? The neshama seems higher in every way… That was one question
The other was that on the one hand the neshama is a nivra, but we learn that at it’s core, it’s one with Hashem. I wanted to understand how we experience that…November 23, 2017 8:13 am at 8:13 am in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1409596
@daasyochid one thing I should clarify is that if a lubavitcher tells you straight out that he doesn’t think the Rebbe is Moshiach you can believe him. He won’t lie to you-an aveira, because he thinks it’s not bofen hamiskabel. So there is no valid reason to not believe our friend sechel hayashar, who seems quite dismayed that I would even discuss such sensitive subjects and has flat out stated he does not think the Rebbe can be Moshiach.November 23, 2017 8:12 am at 8:12 am in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1409595
@sdaasyochid we are actually quite in agreement if you do Torah and Mitzvos to fulfill Ratzon Hashem. Because the whole reason the chachamim yearned for Moshiach was not for the pastries growing from the ground or any other gashmius benefit. Their sole reason was to be rid of shibud malchios and this be free to live a full Torah lifestyle. Do you know out of all 248 mitzvos asei, men can only fulfill 64 and women 48 if I remember the numbers correctly? Many many mitzvos can only be fulfilled once we have a Jewish King- Moshiach, a beis hamikdash, and love in eretz Yisrael under this halachic monarchy.
Also as long as we are in golus Hashem is feeling tzaar as He wants his children back at His table, and wants to be able to give us all good. He hates seeing His children suffer, just like any parent, that is such a painful thing kivyachol.
So if you really are all into fulfilling Ratzon Hashem the logical outcome of that would be to daven and do everything you can to bring Moshiach because that is what Hashem Himself wants!November 23, 2017 8:12 am at 8:12 am in reply to: Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha #1409594
I don’t think Daas yochid deserves to be attacked. I don’t know why you’re so surprised she doesn’t have Moshiach on on her mind whenever she does a Mitzvah. If you’re not a lubavitcher you probably don’t study inyonei moshiach ugeula, and then it seems like some fairy candyland that’s obviously not gonna be the focus of your life even though you believe in it.
About misnagdim in general: the Frierdiker Rebbe said that there is no such thing as real misnagdim anymore. There was-once upon a time, misnagdim who honestly thought that Chassidus-and here I mean all, not just Lubavitch- was a danger to yiddishkeit and fought tooth and nail against them out of a real sense of yiras shomayim. Like the holy Gra for example.
The gra was fed cnn style news about the Alter Rebbe: he was told how the head of the “Katt” was seen eating on Tisha bav with his chassidim with a female on his lap. His informers conveniently forgot to mention that Tisha bav the year of the incident had fallen out on Shabbos, so it was nidche, and the female was his 3 year old granddaughter…
But any old legitimate suspicions against chassidus has been debunked over a century ago. So now there are no real misnagdim, and if someone has an axe to grind against Lubavitch and refuses to have any serious discussion, it’s just a poor fellow with some middos that can use allot of work.
Like that fellow who boasted how he tries to insult or embarrass every Lubavitcher her comes in contact with by telling him his daughter once saw a Lubavitcher putting on Tefillin close to shkiah… Like I don’t even know what to say. At least this Lubavitcher was trying to accomplish a positive thing, albeit in the wrong time. But relishing a chance to insult a fellow Jew is not any kind of Mitzvah, in fact it’s quite the opposite. And as a person who has an ego, I try not to flaunt my flaws in public, much less boast about them so I can’t even understand this guy. The best response to these people is silence, and don’t honor them with the title misnagdim because they can’t be called that if that have no clue what they are against and haven’t ever looked into it. Their unfortunate middos have nothing to do with yiras shomayim.
But someone like Daas yochid i completely understand and I don’t think she is an unfortunate fellow at all. She strikes me as quite smart with a quick grasp of the nuances at play here. She’s just checking what we’re actually saying. A normal fellow doesn’t hint to be a Navi, much less Moshiach (that’s why I first explained what a tzaddik is, no a tzaddik is not”normal”), so she’s just checking he also didn’t say other things like eat on yk CVS. Which, once you get what a tzaddik is you’d realize that wouldn’t happen because a tzaddik would never contravene Torah.
And in general, when people feel attacked they’re less likely to really be open to anything you say vdal.