CS

@everyone

A gutte voch! As I said I will have a very busy week, so I’m really glad moshiachchat is helping out. And I’m also really glad sechel hayashar is on this chat so you can all kind of see the prototypes of the deios etc.

A few clarifications etc…

A friend of mine who has been following this thread with interest commented to me that when I contrast Daas with Bina an quote the maamarei chazal of nashim daaton Kalos and Bina yeseira nitna lisha, it’s quite likely that people here don’t know the difference between Chochma, Bina and daas an so I look like I’m insulting myself and all women to boot. So I should probably clarify:

Chochma is like a flash of lightning but intellectually. Like when you snap your fingers and shout, “Oh I got it!” But then then you say give me a minute because you need to concentrate to bring the idea down from a nucleus to a full understanding.

That process of taking the Chochma and developing it into a full understanding by both length and breath is Bina. Men have Bina and women have Bina yeseira. Obviously there can be exceptions but that is the rule.

Daas there are a few aspects. It is the bridge between sechel and middos. It’s about taking the intellectual abstract concept and making it personally relevant so that you can feel for it. Like you can know there is a rubber in the world and he is dangerous. And all the details of how he’s dangerous. That’s Chochma and Bina.

When you realize he’s on your block, that’s Daas. Then you feel the emotions. So this application aspect, women are really good. We love making everything practical.

The aspect we’re weak at is the weighing and contrasting the every possible hypothetical scenario before making a decision for someone else. Like what a Rav has to do. Or what you have to remember when you learn gemara.

Two exceptions: And first of all, doesn’t say we don’t have any Daas, just that it isn’t as strong as a man.

Also, if I have a vested interest, youd better believe my Daas will get really strong. That’s why there are complicated gemaras where the Tannaim and Amoraim who were incredibly brilliant, grappled with the complicated questions that women brought in taharas Hamishpacha. Since there was a vested interest, the women would be able to ask such crazy questions that even the Chachmei hagemara grappled with.

I think this is long, so I’ll continue soon.

Lastly, for everyone that is shaking their heads at how we were left without direction CVS, you should all know that the Rebbe definitely knew what was coming and prepared us for it. If you want to know how, we’ll be happy to explain. I’m referring to the sichos of Koach Nissan 5751 and gimmel tammuz sicha (not sure the year but the one about even though it looks like a heelam vhester, it’s really ischalta dgeula) respectively. The chassidim of the time understandably didn’t want to get the message, but we definitely have our path set out for us until Moshiach is revealed to all, iyh this year:)

I find it disturbing that one of the examples you brought as mesiras nefesh is not being a loving husband because Hashem comes first?! I believe Hashem gave the mitzvah if oina. Care to explain?

@slominer see what I answered Joseph above on the same issue. If you have further questins, Ill be happy to answer

@slominer oy you completely missed my point! The point was that even if we would need to suffer for learning chassidus, because more would be expected from us as a result, I would do it. Can’t get enough of it.

Really? You’ve never even heard of it? That’s the problems with these yeshivas they teach the convenient sichos that can be explained away… I’ve not only heard of it but seen it myself. It’s in one of the nun aleph nun beis… Will let you know an exact source iyh @slominer here is where my husband comes in

@sechelhayashar interesting but I want referring to the ones in Israel, I was referring to the ones that go to the farthest reaches of the planet. Youknow who takes the most crazy shlichus positions in rural India etc. Yeah it’s those crazy Meshichists. Seems their chayus helps them out,.

@ meno it’s all the same. Chabad is an acronym for Chochma Bina Daas, because Chananya chassidus was written in a way to be understood and applied practically.
Lubavitch is the town in Russia which was the seat of chabad chassidus for years. Incidentally, Lubavitch means City of love.

@slominer

Re olam habo: there’s a story of a chossid who entered into yechidus with either the Rebbe Rashab or Rebbe Mayarash and said Rebbe it’s not fair. As Lubavitchers we have it worse off in this world and olam having!

The Rebbe motioned how?

He continued:
Imagine a Poilisher chossid. He tells his wife he’s going to the Rebbe, and she’s all happy because he’ll get them. Less of brachos so she packs him a nice bag and off he goes. He gets to the Rebbe such inspiration watching the Rebbe daven the Rebbe’s Tish etc. A mechaye. Before he leaves he gets brachos from the Rebbe and off he goes.

After 120 years he comes to shomayim and they ask him what’s with your davening? Learning? Etc. Here says he’s from the chassidim that live by the emuna of their Rebbe. He’s dismissed to gan Eden.

Meanwhile a lubavitcher wants to go to the Rebbe and he barely escapes as his wife is upset he’s leaving again. No lunch. Gets to lubavitch tries to hear a few words of the Rebbe’s maamar, the place is packed he can’t really hear.

He goes into yechidus forgets all his physical work and asks how to serve Hashem better.

After 120 years, he comes to shomayim, the Malachim ask him Nu who are you? He says he’s a lubavitcher. They say, ah. Your Rebbe taught you plenty of how to serve Hashem in your own. So let’s see where your Ahavas Hashem, yiras Hashem? Not exactly up to par. They send him to gehennom.

But, the chossid continues, I would never exchange my gehennom for their gan Eden…

@yw mods thanks so much for allowing and facilitating this discussion, much appreciated to see this openmindedness to understanding our path…

@sechelhayashar

א”ין כל* חיוב *כלל* לחפש מיהו משיח וכו’ אבל *מ”ע מה”ת:* [מצות עשה מן התורה] אהבת *כאו”א* [כל אחד ואחד] מישראל ושלילת המחלוקת וכו’ *בתכלית* – ופשיטא שלא לעשות במזיד הפכו *וד”ל* [ודי למבין].”

Thanks for sharing! 1000%!! But why do you think the Rebbe gave so those very obvious hints in the nuns? You have to look up the context but it seems this letter was written to some overzealous chassidim who were trying to lord it over everyone that the Rebbe is Moshiach… If you ask why I’m sharing here, well quite simply it seems the Meshichistim Israelis have done a great job at letting the cat out of the bag, and mostly in a way of Oirois dTohu. So what’s left for us is to pick up the pieces, bkeilim dtikkun. I don’t think you’re not spending another it means the oilam doesn’t know what the majority of Lubavitch think, aderabe by your (and I mean your as a klal not you as a yochid as you spoke up, albeit reluctantly) silence, your letting them think we have no basis and we’re all simply crazy
…

@gaon no I’m sure there was much much more to it but there’s books to read and I’m not supposed to write one in one post. My point in bringing up that incident was to show that even though the Gra sincerely meant well, he accepted misinformation. And if he only would have agreed to meet the Alter Rebbe instead of running away, the whole conflict would have been avoided. (I watched a video of his descendent testifying to the above. That the Gra saw the Alter Rebbe through the keyhole of his door in Vilna, and realized there was so much kedusha there that he would have become a chossid, so instead he ran away, jumped out a window or something and the meeting never happened: ()

@gaon. I looked it up. Yeah I know the difference between speech and breath-that wasn’t my question. My question was: I know the experience of the nivra part of my neshama because when I feel love towards Hashem, I feel myself as a separate entity loving Hashem. My question was if my essence is one with Hashem, Borei, how do I get in touch with that party of myself?

“Just wanted to sincerely ask as someone who knows a lot about chabad and has spent unfortunately too much time in crown heights, why is it ok to stop in middle of davening kabbalas shabbos to Hashem, in the middle of lecha Dodi, to start jumping up and down fervently and sing yechi adoneinu for TEN minutes at the top of your lungs towards the Rebbes chair in 770!”

Firstly it’s not in the middle, it’s afterwards until tzeis:) let’s be accurate here.

“Quite honestly would you do that if you truly saw the Rebbe in front of you? Do you think he would wave you on?”

Well quite honestly, the frenzy of Yechi was really after the stroke and yes the Rebbe did wave them on…

Would I personally? No but I’m in a different generation and once Moshiach comes there won’t be a need so it’s really irrelevant. The chassidim started the whole Yechi singing for long periods of time when the Rebbe had the stole because they thought maybe this would break through this heelem vhester and then the Rebbe could be revealed as Moshiach once and for all. Unfortunately, they really missed the whole point of famous koach Nissan sicha, where the Rebbe was so upset… But that’s for another time. But it seems that’s why gimmel tammuz happened. Anyhow…

“I don’t care that it’s meschichist tzfatim, this goes over the line and it’s happening in front of your eyes.”

Yeah I use the extra time to say my chitas or catch up to the minyan. Seriously, do you want me to tell at them from the ladies section?? And anyhow they don’t listen to anyone

“The Rebbe at one point even scolded people looking at him during davening and was very emotional about it.”

What does this have to do with singing Yechi in between parts of davening?

“And you dare to pull this off in middle of davening!”

Most of us roll our eyes the first time, but then we get used to it and learn a sicha or something. Anyhow these are the bochurim who get violent for the most part so I wouldn’t advise you to yell at them. That’s what the court case is all about apparently, stuff like that

“Is there a way to join this elite/chosen group? If so
how?”

I don’t like your choice of words as I don’t think like that but I understand why you use them. We use the terms front lines, because every group in klal Yisrael is needed and adds as discussed. If you are being serious, then just know that when Moshiach comes he will thank every You for their part in bringing him ie making the world a G-dly place.

If you’d like to join the front lines I’d suggest to do whatever you can to help and be mekarev your fellow Jews, such as inviting not yet frum Yidden over for Shabbos, there are loads of things that anyone can do in that direction it’s just a mindset- help as many Yidden as you can do as many mitzvos as possible.

Work on yourself but don’t wait till you’re perfect before you help others. “If you know an aleph, teach an aleph”

Sulearn as much as you can about the geula and what you can do to bring it. I highly suggest the 2sefarim set of shaarei geula-hoemuna vhatzifia, and shaarei geula-hoemuna ymos haMoshiach. The more you know the more motivated you will be.

Learn chassidus so that you will be in touch with what your neshama is and who you really are, so that you don’t have an identity crisis when Moshiach comes, and you will enjoy the process so much more, and you will be able to identify all the giluim that you were just learning about till then, ie you will know what you are experiencing.

@Joseph
“As a self-described “avowed non-mesichist” who nevertheless you say you believe that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is Moshiach and you believe that “zt’l” should not be said when mentioning the Rebbe (for the reason that the earlier explained), how do you see yourself being different than the meshichists who you avowedly are not one of?”

I do not recall describing myself as a self annoyed non Meshichist. In fact, I like most girls, really don’t care because it’s not the main point anyway. The point is to bring Moshiach. And this is what the Rebbe emphasized as well, although husband does remind me that I should lean more to the Meshichist side, because the Rebbe wouldn’t hint all this for nothing. At the end of the day it’s a matter of the heart. I’m happy to understand all sides, I find it quite interesting and as long as a shita makes sense, I’m happy to follow. Which is the good side of noshim daaton Kalos, I don’t have to be stuck to any one side.

“Do you find it objectionable for others to refer to the “Rebbe zt’l” or is that only something you choose not to utter?”

I choose not to pass judgement on anyone. As a saying goes the last time Moshe Rabbeinu was hidden for just a day, chet haegel happened. It is really tough, and I’m certainly not going to pass judgement on anything less than an aveira or lack of chassidishkeit.

“If so, are you trying to say that the only real difference between non-mesichists such as yourself and meshichists is which side of the 770 property dispute you believe is right — as both sides believe the Rebbe is Moshiach?”

The above should clarify. Those people fighting know that sholom jus most important, unfortunately they got sucked on by their yetzer Hara. Hope it resolves itself soon

“Is saying “Yechi” a dispute between the meshichists and non-meshichists?”

Yes although among the girls it’s not a topic that w discuss much at all, amongst the boys probably more

@slominer
“How do meshichists and non-meshichists get along with each other religiously/hashkaficly?”

As said, nowadays, mostly fine. They might debate each other on the way they understand the Rebbe’s sichos but that’s pretty much the extent of the disagreement for the younger generation at least. The older generation tend to have stronger opinions one way or another.

“Or should I say chabadSHLIACH since it’s quite obvious you are getting information from elsewhere, or rather your husband took over for you completely. You almost had us fooled as how much more knowledgeable in Torah you lubavitch woman are than the rest of us, but that’s not my point.”

I set aside the times I feed my baby to reply to this forum. I will take your words as a compliment but no I haven’t yet asked anyone for any sources. I told you I try to learn a sicha or maamar a few times a week and there are tremendous amounts knowledge from all parts of Torah contained within. I wouldn’t say the typical lubavitcher shlucha could remember this all offhand, but I am on the academic side BH. And no my husband isn’t much of an academic so he doesn’t have much patience to read this all, least if all reply for me. Besides he teaches all day. My time is up for now but will continue responding it at my next opportunity.

@ubiquitin I can’t have a serious in depth discussion with you if you are too impatient to read up on the background concepts because it’s too boring for you. If you just want aquick pat answer well then this song was written when the Rebbe was sick, and everyone was davening he should recover. As to the other answer, it’s a long one and involves explaining a concept which frankly would bore you as you write. So I don’t see a reason to write it up.

“One hundred and sixty nine posts later, you still have not answered what is the disagreement between the Lubavitcher “meshichists” and the Lubavitcher non-meshichists. (And what percentage of Lubavitchers are meshichists and what percent non-meshichists, in your best guess.)”

Ah an important point. Fine. So I think if you’ve been following much of the discussion, especially between me and sechel hayashar, you’ll see it’s very nuanced, and these terms can mean something else to everyone, especially my generation which never saw the Rebbe. And as it gets more nuanced, and we study more of what the Rebbe said, the differences become much more lessened until you can have today, someone like me can marry someone with the views of sechel hayashar, because we both follow the Rebbe and it’s teachings and a way of reading Rambam isn’t gonna make or break a marriage.

Whereas 20 years ago, feelings were running steering, shuls split over this, communities split over this because they were still in shock and reacting strongly to gimmel tammuz.

In general, meshichist means someone who thinks the Rebbe is Moshiach, and non meshichists means the ones who don’t.

Alternatively, meshichists are the ones who think they need to convince everyone that the Rebbe is Moshiach, and non meshichists think this is something applicable just to lubavitchers and there’s no reason to yell this loud and proud, especially without context as this is not bofen hamiskabel.

So it’s kind of tough to define to an exact number because what people can mean can be very different.

Then there’s some people like mother of shluchim was saying, who are thugs. Well there’s very harsh, another way to term them is irresponsible teens who just go after excitement, kind of like what people were talking about lots of the peleg bachurim.

Everything in discussing doesn’t apply to those people because I’m talking about a legitimate path in avodas Hashem, and obviously, immature teens who don’t learn and just create trouble, don’t qualify to me. And what I was saying about not minding my son going a bit extreme as a teen, this is definitely not what I meant. Violence is never ok, I meant taking his learning a bit over the top, like Oirois dTohu without the keilim of tikkun kind of thing.

So according to definition a) I’d think many Lubavitchers subscribes to the Meshichist description besides maybe two yeshivos- so let’s say 50% or up.
10% average- not meshichist
40% don’t really care either way. This is all the young people, and based on my experience, so it’s an opinion and I can be corrected.

According to the second definition:

Meshichists: 20-40% -ie almost all lubavitcher Israelis, and everyone else with an exception here and there, non Meshichist.

“I was once shown in one of the classic chassidishe seforim that our job is to want to be true ovdei Hashem and NOT just to constantly ask for moshiach. I’ll try to find the source but as it definitely wasn’t in “Chassidus”, i.e. Lubavitch sources, its probably not worth anything anyway.”

No one said instead, we said as a focus and aderabe, if you really want Moshiach, you will increase your Torah and Mitzvos, not slack off. There’s a famous story, foel free to fill in on the details but the Alter Rebbe once answered some questioners on why Moshiach was not there yet, “The Moshiach everyone is asking for isn’t Moshiach. And the real Moshiach, no one wants.” Meaning, Moshiach shouldn’t be only an answer to personal or general tragedy. We should want Moshiach for the right reasons, to serve Hashem in the best possible manner as DY said, not as something to remember only when there is a tzarah.

“And is anyone going to refer me to the source of nossi hador = moshiach/Moshe Rabbeinu hador… or is there perhaps no such non-Lubavitch source?”

Answered above.

As an aside to an above question, there is a joke within Lubavitch that Moshiach must be a Litvak, because otherwise not all of klal Yisrael will accept him, whereas lubavitchers will be happy to accept whoever it is…

@WTP I don’t think this is deliberate, but I think you’re taking what I said the wrong way. So let me explain again. I think I was the one who pointed out there were many other legitimate leaders of BY at the time of Moshe Rabbeinu and they all had their own drachim that were legitimate paths to serve Hashem. There still was a Moshe Rabbeinu though. Also with the Rebbe- many other leaders of klal Yisrael from all walks of life came to consult with and visit the Rebbe, but they all led their flocks in their own ways, and that’s how it’s meant to be. No one said everyone is meant to be Lubavitch, there are meant to be many complementary paths to Hashem and each one supports the rest. For example, Chabad primarily focuses on outreach, while Satmar focuses on bikur cholim and chesed within the frum world. Both add, both are important and both are necessary. As stated earlier klal Yisrael is like a body, all parts need to function differently to create a healthy whole. If even the feet don’t work, the whole body, including the head, is missing out. The Rebbe once said that it’s a good thing Satmar protests Zionism so we don’t need to take that on. They do that it’s their job. Should everyone learn chassidus? Yes, as that mindset is the mindset of geula. Should everyone become a lubavitcher shliach? No we need diversity to be a healthy whole.

Now something I realized I haven’t been clear. I don’t think the 7 generation correlation was meant to say that were the only ones drawing down the shechina as that’s quite ridiculous an clearly wrong. Every time any he does a Mitzvah, he brings down more Elokus to the world. The 7 generation thing was meant to answer why us? Why are we the ones tasked to bring Moshiach? Why not a better earlier generation? We’re not even worthy and maybe not even interested… So the Rebbe brought the 7gen thing to answer that just as Moshe Rabbeinu was the one to bring down the shechina, even though the process began with Avrahom avinu, and Moshe Rabbeinu wasn’t a greater tzaddik than Avrahom avinu, he just merited this zechus because he was seventh. Same with us. We’re not amazing that we have this mission, aderabe many other generations were much better. We just merit this because we’re seventh.

So chizkiyahu was the Moshiach shebador until it failed. Don’t get what the problem is.

“Tomorrow Mashiach comes. And he is Litvish. Or Sefardi. Or a Gerrer Chassid, etc. Will you accept him?”

Of course! As long as he comes already! That’s what I’m saying this whole discussion is a side point the main thing, and this every Lubavitcher should agree on, is to bring Moshiach!!

At the same time, I should say the guy who was out to insult Lubavitch actually gave a big compliment ironically. The worst thing he could find was someone trying to do a Mitzvah in the wrong time. Halevai… We’re for the most part normal people, not tzaddikim not even beinonim. Just hopefully wanna be beinonim. Hopefully we can aspire to reach the expectation that the guy who is out to get Lubavitch expects of us… We should be only involved with positive things. Lchaim!

@daasyochid one thing I should clarify is that if a lubavitcher tells you straight out that he doesn’t think the Rebbe is Moshiach you can believe him. He won’t lie to you-an aveira, because he thinks it’s not bofen hamiskabel. So there is no valid reason to not believe our friend sechel hayashar, who seems quite dismayed that I would even discuss such sensitive subjects and has flat out stated he does not think the Rebbe can be Moshiach.

@sechelhayashar
I don’t think Daas yochid deserves to be attacked. I don’t know why you’re so surprised she doesn’t have Moshiach on on her mind whenever she does a Mitzvah. If you’re not a lubavitcher you probably don’t study inyonei moshiach ugeula, and then it seems like some fairy candyland that’s obviously not gonna be the focus of your life even though you believe in it.

About misnagdim in general: the Frierdiker Rebbe said that there is no such thing as real misnagdim anymore. There was-once upon a time, misnagdim who honestly thought that Chassidus-and here I mean all, not just Lubavitch- was a danger to yiddishkeit and fought tooth and nail against them out of a real sense of yiras shomayim. Like the holy Gra for example.

The gra was fed cnn style news about the Alter Rebbe: he was told how the head of the “Katt” was seen eating on Tisha bav with his chassidim with a female on his lap. His informers conveniently forgot to mention that Tisha bav the year of the incident had fallen out on Shabbos, so it was nidche, and the female was his 3 year old granddaughter…

But any old legitimate suspicions against chassidus has been debunked over a century ago. So now there are no real misnagdim, and if someone has an axe to grind against Lubavitch and refuses to have any serious discussion, it’s just a poor fellow with some middos that can use allot of work.

Like that fellow who boasted how he tries to insult or embarrass every Lubavitcher her comes in contact with by telling him his daughter once saw a Lubavitcher putting on Tefillin close to shkiah… Like I don’t even know what to say. At least this Lubavitcher was trying to accomplish a positive thing, albeit in the wrong time. But relishing a chance to insult a fellow Jew is not any kind of Mitzvah, in fact it’s quite the opposite. And as a person who has an ego, I try not to flaunt my flaws in public, much less boast about them so I can’t even understand this guy. The best response to these people is silence, and don’t honor them with the title misnagdim because they can’t be called that if that have no clue what they are against and haven’t ever looked into it. Their unfortunate middos have nothing to do with yiras shomayim.

But someone like Daas yochid i completely understand and I don’t think she is an unfortunate fellow at all. She strikes me as quite smart with a quick grasp of the nuances at play here. She’s just checking what we’re actually saying. A normal fellow doesn’t hint to be a Navi, much less Moshiach (that’s why I first explained what a tzaddik is, no a tzaddik is not”normal”), so she’s just checking he also didn’t say other things like eat on yk CVS. Which, once you get what a tzaddik is you’d realize that wouldn’t happen because a tzaddik would never contravene Torah.

And in general, when people feel attacked they’re less likely to really be open to anything you say vdal.