CS

Although I should really be Dan lchaf zechus for the Rabbi (ahavas yisrael applies to your own kreiz too not just others ;)):

Some things given the context, can be OK, but in another setting or context can be not OK.

For example, we’ve discussed on another thread and pretty much all mutually agreed that making a song of shelo asani isha would be in bad taste and middos, although there is nothing wrong with the Brocha itself. Similarly, my own sentence above, “cvs to compare yidden to goyim,” within the context of a discussion amongst frum yidden is fine as they all know my context, and even a learned goy changing upon it would understand. However saying it to a non Jewish audience would be wrong and a chillul Hashem although there is nothing wrong with the statement itself.

My guess is that the Rabbi Sam is referring to only expressed himself as such in his own lubavitch shul but would never say such a thing in a non lubavitch shul. Also his full remarks have not been brought, but it is likely that his context (although I don’t like his example as as I said there is no such thing) was that we are lucky to have Chassidus and not a degrading message, just as my sentence above was a message emphasizing the teirkeit and neshama of a yid, and not degrading a goy, who we all know is created btzelem Elokim.

Neville- as you wish. But i hope you see how exasperating this is.

You: address this address that
Me: why? I’d rather stick to non or less controversial issues
You: you always skirt the issues! You think we can’t handle it. That’s it we won you lost. I’ve wasted enough time on this
Others: Yeah he’s right
Me: ok if you really want to get into it… Let’s do it properly
Neville: never mind. Don’t respond to my post.

OK so who’s skirting now?

Syag I was thanking them for respectfully worded posts. And I meant it. I’ll probably address yours as well, if it isn’t answered by the others, dw😉. Good Shabbos

Neville thanks for writing a polite respectful post although you clearly feel strongly about it. I will respond as soon as I can. Have a wonderful shabbos.

Iitft:
“Re: Tanya
The Tanya’s conception of tzaddik, benoni, rasha was a radical departure (unless someone can find a source) from all Jewish hashkafa prior.”

If you’ll look into the first perek of Tanya where the Alter Rebbe defines these terms, you will find he concludes so based on many gemaras. (Probably other sources as well but I just remember all the gemaras)

“Classical Judaism believes that a person can rise above their yetzer hara (cf Mesillas Yesharim) or the contrary,(cf Rashi “Vayechezek Lev Paroah”) but no one is born this way”

I admit unfamiliarity with mesillas yesharim but based on what I do know, what you describe is the norm. There are the born tzaddikim who are the rare exception (such as Moshe rabbeinu who was born mohul, which is apparently can be a sign of such), and then there are individuals who worked so hard against their yetzer hara that they reached the level of beinoni on their own efforts, and Hashem then granted then the level of tzadik as a gift. Such as Dovid hamelech who stated vlibi cholul bikirbi as he had killed his yetzer through his fasting.

Most of us aren’t created necessarily to become tzaddikim but we all have the potential to become beinonim. And if that seems mighty hard, we can have beinoni moments and try to make those the majority of our lives (perek 14 Tanya).

In perek aleph, the Alter Rebbe states that the hamon am use the terms tzadik rasha beinoni as terms borrowed from the declaration of the Beis din shel maala, where an individual is termed tzadik (after he passes away and is judged) if he had majority mitzvos over aveiris. He is called tzadik because he was nitztadek badin. Rasha if he failed it due to his many aveiros and is sent to gehennom. Etc

But the real meaning of the terms is as the Alter Rebbe terms them based on the gemaras brought.

Iitft

Me “After he showed him what a beinoni”

You “Sly answer to pull on a naive fellow but no cigar
it means that he is less than virtually every & any born to a Rebbe’s family”

Not within lubavitch. In fact chassidim were under tremendous pressure to choose the older son in law
of the Frierdiker Rebbe as their new Rebbe from members of the family. They refused as they didn’t see him as “Rebbe” material. Until today, the Rashag while highly respected as a tremendous chossid etc is not seen as a tzadik of Tanya, and I don’t know about beinoni. It’s possible. Especially in his later years. But everyone agrees that the Frierdiker Rebbes only grandson was no beinoni. So no. No sly cigar. Honestly we probably respect the chofetz chaim more than the litvaks themselves, at least by one litvaks admission

Mods thanks for the good work you do. Can you please try to post my posts in order? I forgot to number most. It confuses people when they’re out of order

RSo (I addressed the Moshiach thing first, so hopefully will be posted in order)

“You just alluded to something that has been pointed out many times over the years. Lubavich accords respect Rebbes of earlier generation who have not been alive for many decades. Not Rebbes who were niftar relatively recently v’ein tzarich lomar live Rebbes. The most recent Rebbe you mentioned above was niftar in 5575 – over 200 years ago! Other chassidic groups mention and admire even live Rebbes with admiration and yir’as hakavod. Not Lubavich. I’m expecting you to argue, but it’s the way of Lubavich and all non-Lubavichers know it.”

Here’s the rule of thumb: We accord respect commensurate with what makes sense. And I actually appreciate this opportunity as well, because it allows me to answer the other question that Chabad accords their Rebbe “too much” respect, so it comes off as weird and maybe going too far etc…

So, in years of yore, when you heard stories of the Choze of Lublin seeing from one side of the wrold to another with his ruach hakodesh, and Reb Zusia looking at a person and listing all their sins as if he had committed them, to arouse them to do teshuva etc, Chabad chassidim teated and still treat those tzaddikim with the degree of awe and respect due a tzaddik by the definition of Tanya (ie no yetzer hara.) Such Tzaddikim are capable of these things.

But when a Rebbe of today is NOT such a tzaddik, by his chassidim’s own admission, (although he is of course a very learned, even extremely learned individual, with a high level of Yiras Shomayim and an all around ehrlicher Yid who can guide and inspire others, and no one is saying not) why would you think we would respect them to that extent? That would indeed be weird.

Now we have reason to believe our Rebbe is such a tzaddik, so we accord him that respect. Its really that simple and shouldnt be offensive.

As far as a lack of respect altogether, chas vsholom! In fact, in two cities where I personally have lived, visiting chassidishe Rebbes would davka daven by the Lubavitcher yeshiva even though there was no lack of other shteiblach and yeshivos of other kreizin. Why would they choose to daven by Lubavitch if Lubavitch is generally disrespectful of Torah leaders chas vsholom?

If anything, because we were blessed with such a Rebbe, we tend to err on the side of overestimating other Rebbes.

I remember the time in high school when we heard how that day’s story in Yeshiva was that a visiting Rebbe had asked a Lubavitcher bochur a question. The bochur reverently listened, and then registered shock, before he recovered and answered.

The teacher was curious what had transpired, so he asked the bochur what had happened. The bochur said the Rebbe had asked him what the good tourist sights were. He hadn’t expected such a question from a Rebbe.

Rso
‘”Are you by any chance an alias of CS, because your reasoning is so similar to hers? Or is it perhaps that that is the way you are taught to learn in lubavich – attack the person who criticizes you without actually paying attention to the words they said.”

As you falsely restated what I said below, maybe you should apply your message above to yourself (just replace the word Lubavitch with whatever kreiz you hail from). If you find that disrespectful, I didn’t write it, nor did Kaiserw… Honestly, yes Kaiserw was a bit sharp and condescending but you have been too. Maybe try to write with the same respect you want us to write you with.

“My labeling what CS wrote as apikorsus had nothing whatsoever to do with the definition of tzaddikim. It was because she said that there aren’t any leaders or tzaddikim in the generation of a high caliber.”

False. I said ““There is a general lack of the kind of leadership and tzaddikim of yore- even during the Rebbe’s days there was a lack of tzaddikim with NO YETZER HARA.”

Yes that should obvious. And yes, you have learned Tanya (I remember from the other thread as well, I was impressed by that) so you of all people should not have posted that to criticize and bash, as you know full well what a tzaddik gamur of Tanya, is and yes it is unfortunately a statement of fact that there is a dearth of tzaddikim On THAT LEVEL TODAY.

Changing what I said to level further apikorsus charges is a disgrace. I would expect you to apologize for it, not for me, as I forgive you on the grounds that your passion played with your head, but on the grounds of retaining your integrity in this ongoing discussion.

Now I will address your latest argument, about what you claim to be a lack of respect within Lubavitch towards other kreizin, although I think I did write up some solid points already. Happy to continue to discuss but lets try to keep it honest and civil.

Thanks kaiserw. Also the quote from Rashbi “Roisi bnei aliya vhem muatim” brought by the Alter Rebbe in perek 10.

Btw if youre honest rso I don’t know where you base your gripes on an intellectual ground ( I suppose in giving in on this thread not addressing the Rebbe etc as yall can’t seem to get past it. I still am looking for your response to the source of what you think is wrong with how we request moshiach abnd Geula).

We in lubavitch have no problem giving other tzaddikim their respect. At Farbrengens, Chabad.org etc we quote stories of the heilike ruzhiner, choze fun lublin, reb zusia etc with the same respect and awe we accord our Rebbes.

But when the chassidim and talmidim of today don’t consider their own Rebbes or Gedolim to be tzaddikim of Tanya (absolutely no struggle with their yetzer hara sas it is drugged / gone entirely), (and I have evidence of this of youd like) then why should we?

And if we have evidence that our Rebbe is a tzadik of Tanya, then why do you bristle at the lack of respect? There’s no lack of respect just evidence based observation.

We apply it within lubavitch as well: reb sholom mordechai, if you’ve listened to his Farbrengens or read his books, has reached levels in Avodas Hashem higher than the rest of us. Yet we don’t call him shlita or Rebbe because he is not a tzadik of Tanya (as evidenced by his stories of his struggles with his yetzer hara.) this is no slight to him, nor does he consider it one.

We definitely respect him and admire him as a chossid and Mashpia, because he is, but no one is according him the respect we accord our Rebbes because he isn’t. (There are other lubavitchers like that as well, just he is one of the most famous outside lubavitch.)

So on an honest intelligent basis, I don’t see any reason for your gripe. If there is something faulty I said here you can lmk

Syag this is neville “That would be hook-line-sinker we win/Chabad showed its true, ugly colors/we can finally stop talking about it.”

Yes I stand by my words within context. I don’t think they’re problematic. I don’t think neville truly thinks they’re problematic within context. He looking for we win Chabad loses in his own words.

And this isn’t the first time he’s done this. My last few responses to neville have been me clearing myself of things he’s attributed to me that I never said or meant.

OK this one I said but he’s making a huge deal out of it when I think it honestly isn’t within context. and im kind of fed up with his last few posts.

I do enjoy neville many times. He’s witty (his name even) and he can play fair. But the last few posts he clearly isn’t interested in playing fair. He’s interested in making Chabad look bad…

Neville I’ve addressed enough of your posts that I see you’re just looking for a crack to jump in and pounce because you think its fun. I’m not going to address your last one for now because I’m not looking for further static. But yes you’re welcome to leave as your obviously just looking to cause trouble. That’s not my kind of fun.

Coffee addict in case you were wondering, we mean the translation – hmm hard to translate lol. I guess in actuality. The same way we mean teikef umiyad

With regards to showing I can be wrong, I have np with that if I believe that to be the case. in fact I have already admitted earlier on this thread to you when I realized the answer didnt satisfactorily adress the queston and that I dont know the answer

OK I responded to the bit about the chofetz chaim which in turn engendered more questions. My fault. But neville, again you are conflating anything to do with moshiach and Geula to buy synonymous with who moshiach is. There’s a whole world of learning on the topic aside from that. That is a speck in the topic..if you want to see what I wanted to explain, just read the op. It’s not hidden … Very first post goodness. As far as the meshichist thread, I didn’t open it. I agreed to answer questions posed by others. So you’re really reading things that aren’t there.

I would like to continue on topic, and as I see there is interest, I will attempt to open a thread entitled understanding Chabad where I can attempt to answer more more difficult questions on Chabad such as some above, as long as its a fair discussion. Ie don’t ask me to be honest, and not skirt topics, but then get mad if I say something not pc even though it is true, or you can at least see why I would hold of it even if you may disagree… Because that would just shut down any discussion, as I will stop responding if it is a bash thread instead of an honest conversation… Have your pick. Don’t ask questions if you don’t want honest answers or are just looking to bash things…

Anyhow I will respond to rso post here and continue the conversation on Geula, awaiting the Geula, and redirect the other posts to the other thread (assuming it’s approved) so this one can be on less controversial topics within moshiach and Geula, which I do want to explain and also understand if there is legitimate opposition to demanding moshiach etc. which is why it isn’t universal. Or if it’s just an attitude with no backing .. Etc.

And feel free to post more signs of how the world is approaching the Geula state, there is much to discuss on that!

@coffee addict see the op where I explained the title

Rso your post deserves a longer response which I will post iyh at my first opportunity

Post 2 continued:

When I first joined the coffee room, I was much more naive about what the ways of thinking are, outside of lubavitch, and I volunteered to answer a thread on the topic of meshichism. By the time the thread was closed down there were pretty much just emotional responses, and I realized that not every topic is good for discussion on an Internet forum.

As far as my “shlucha schooling where we learned how to evade topics” i did take one class in seminary where we were advised that its not a great idea to, for example, tell a die hard vegan all the various reasons why korbanos are such a great thing, and we’re gonna do it when moshiach comes etc. Because their current state of mind is so far from that that all the sources you bring will not make a difference as they aren’t really open to hearing…

So when I started this thread, I wanted to focus on something we could all agree on or discuss, etc, how the world is advancing towards the Geula on a spiritual level which is also expressed in various ways on a practical level. To be excited about it. Discuss it.

Although meshichism falls under the topic of Geula, its controversial even within lubavitch (as you saw on that thread) and is really at the end of the day emuna based rather than a solid hashkafa ( altho there are sources either way.) so id rather keep that out of this discussion as I prefer on coming to common ground.

To be continued

Neville I don’t know what you’re on about in your latest thread. Rso was saying its fine to put himself on par with the Rebbe and brought Rav shach as an example to bolster his claim that there is no need to respect the Rebbe.

I find this quite ridiculous as I, or any other frum yid for that matter, would never think I should have equal say to predict what halacha should be for example, as my Rav, because (for arguments sake, let’s say I was a man. Not talking about the man / woman aspect) haven’t studied dayanus, so I know I can’t pasken. Maybe I can guess what the halacha is but I definitely wouldn’t put myself on the same footing. I think anyone that does just looks like a fool.

My Rav would never put himself on the same footing as Rabbi Kanievsky for example who is known to have much more knowledge of Torah than the typical learned Rav.

And any learned yorei shomayim person cannot be put themselves on the same level as a tzadik who is not just a yarei shomayim, but has ruach hakodesh, can read people’s thoughts, and can see what is happening in the heavenly realms. The Rebbe was such a person as has been evidenced by thousands of encounters by people from all walks of life.

So for a regular person to say my personal opinion or interpretation of a source (not backed by ancient sources or tzaddikim etc) is as good as the Rebbe’s interpretation I just find ridiculous. And I don’t see why anyone else wouldn’t.

If I said my knowledge of Torah is as great as Rabbi Kanievsky because we’re both human, or because there is a another Torah giant out there that disagrees with him, I would be equally foolish. This is not a matter of litvish vs. chassidish. We in Chabad respect Rabbi Kanievsky and the chofetz chaim etc. Its simply a matter of knowing your place which I think should be a basic for any frum jew

Stuartw, neville, have you seen the Chabadshlucha explain meshichists thread? Neville I know you have. Unfortunately (I think) it was closed down but I think it is informative if you want to see the take on that. This thread is about how the world / am Yisrael are ready for moshiach. I don’t see a reason to derail this thread. I also don’t why any topic that includes the Rebbe’s viewpoint is seen as fair game for “do you believe the Rebbe’s moshiach? Yes or no.” As if that “settles the matter at hand.

I wouldn’t mind if that thread was unblocked. Someone panicked and said it was creating division amongst klal Yisrael, and the next thing was the mods closed it down. I think pen frank discussion is a good thing, as long as it is open and honest, not a baiting, switch-the-topic-so-I-can get -you-on-this-if-not-on-that type of discussion.

In any case if there is an unresolved question there and it isn’t reopened, and you’d like to explore that topic in am honest manner, feel free to try your luck opening a new thread on it, and I will respond

Rso: you’re really getting off track with the post addressing mine to neville and i suspect it would derail the thread altogether. besides I think we’ve been through that one before on other threads. So I’m gonna ignore it for now and once we’ve addressed the topic at hand, you can remind me to address it. Dw I don’t forget. But I suspect you know the answer as well.

Ladies and gentlemen id like to thank you for keeping me company during the time my husband has gone to the kinnus. It has been (mostly 😜) a true pleasure exchanging thoughts on different threads. I suspect that I will have less time to respond from tomorrow on, so do forgive me if I don’t follow up in as quick a fashion. I will keep in mind, and if it’s a sincere, non baiting question, as most are, will address in due time (as I have revived this thread due to follow up.) Thanks allot again and enjoy your evening 🙂

@Iitft refreshing. Bh moshiach coming is now being spoken about in all circles of klal Yisrael. To me that itself shows its around the corner.

Fascinating story that I referenced before:

The Rebbe Rashab (nistalek tof reish pei, early 1900s) once commented on kapitl 89, last 2 pesukim, that they refer to three generations/ time periods:

“Asher cherfu oivecha Hashem” refers to the anti G-d period.

That will be followed by “Asher cherfu ikvos meshichecha.” Otherwise frum yidden who have a seemingly unexlka allergic reaction to talking about moshiachs coming, although yidden have had moshiach on their minds every day in the harsh golus.

This will be followed by “Baruch Hashem lolam amen vamen.” The time period of the Geula.

The first we saw by the Frierdiker Rebbe – with the rise of every ism other than Judaism.

The next followed by the Rebbe (why does he have to talk about moshiach so much?)

Looks like that is BH waning (ok there are still a few die hards here but overall has been a great shift) and we are approaching the days of moshiach iyh

@yeshivishrockstar

“I also believe that we are on the threshold of Geula – thats why we are back in Eretz Yisrael, and Baruch hashem, we are now zoche do be able to be mekayim a mitzvah that was long gone – techeiles.

If Chabad believes were in ikvisa demeshicha, why don;t they wear techeiles and make aliya?”

Fair question. Several points.

Main point: when Chabad talks about being in ikvasa dimeshicha (as can be seen in my very first post on the thread if I’m not mistaken), we mean it in a spiritual sense, and not in a halachic sense.

Point 2: Re: techeiles- is that specifically only to be worn by moshiach times or separate question. Regardless, as sam said, the consensus amongst halachic authorities is that there has not been found the creature yet which matches ALL the descriptions in chazal about the chilazon. Thats why most of the chareidi crowd does not yet wear it although we’d love to.

Regarding moving to EY specifically, while I think the dati leumi community and others are doing amazing work strengthening the Jewish character of the government, and of settling and securing EY in Jewish and frum hands, the Rebbe’s approach was that if we all run off to eretz hakodesh, we will leave behind all the Jews facing assimilation. Our primary job right now is to bring all the Jews back to Hashem so that we will all go home together when the time is right.

@neville in your second to most recent post, you are putting words in my mouth that I never said or meant. So no need to defend myself.

As far as Lubavitch isolating themselves, well it’s half and half. We are more isolated as our shittos tend to take the middle path (see my earlier post for some examples) and thus manage to differ both from much of the chareidi world but equally differ from MO etc..while also maintaining common ground/,hashkofos with both.

When your motivating factors for instance, centre around different things, like schar vs. Moshiach for a starting point, it is easy to farbreng more with fellow lubavitchers.

But we are also isolated by others. Vhameivin yavin no need to reference machlokes needlessly.

That’s why I love this forum, it enables me to relate and exchange Hashkofos and common ground with other yidden. Yet people like you, (or should I say your second to most recent post, as you’ve actually been much more respectful generally as of late,) are anti semetic against lubavitchers. It’s like we’re the Jews of the Jews, and there are many double standards. For example, you complain we isolate ourselves. Yet when I join this forum, how many times have I heard the sentiment, Stop pushing your Chabad agenda. You’re only talking to us to mekarev us etc.. Think about it.

Or lubavitchers are shluchim so we expect more of them than anyone else. Hey there’s lubavitchers who are jerks, that means you’re all phony two faced jerks. Etc. Just look at your own post and you’ll see. Aside from making up what I said and meant.

With regards to your post that we are meshichist winking and your not oblivious etc. do you want to state straight out – the answer to your question also answers how techias hameisim could also happen first? I don’t find it relevant so I don’t mention. There’s no wink wink. You know what we believe and what we don’t, we’ve had several threads over it. If you’re curious you can ask. Like what do you want me to do? Clap for you every time a lubavitcher references a source that can also somehow apply to the Rebbe being moshiach?

@rso the Rav shach excuse to hate on lubavitch/ disrespect the Rebbe doesn’t wash water with me (is that the correct phrase? Lol I always mix up these axioms) for several reasons. I can definitely expound. But I’m wondering if you are sincere about it, and it will give you what to think about? Or you’ll just find the next thing to bash because if your mind is made up, it isn’t worth writing out. Especially on such a sensitive topic.