CS

Np:

“You know that it is not unique to Tzaddikim from the Parsha in Chumash re: Navi Sheker. The point is that EVEN a navi sheker can affect miracles and know hidden things. One does not have to intentionally seek to use the s”a, one can be misled (and himself not even realize it). Now, I’m NOT saying that the last Lubavitcher Rebbe was misled in this way. What I am saying is that since such abilities are not unique to Tzadikim they cannot be used as a criteria.

The above quote from the first Lubavitcher Rebbe does not contradict this at all. The fact that Hashem increases emuna in this world by revealing His abilities through the tzadikim and the miracles they do has nothing to do with what criteria ought to be used for accepting them as Tzadikim in the first place.”

Np by your reasoning, Eliyahu hanavi and har hacarmel would have never happened. We have a clear mitzva of listening to our chachamim which was applied then (source Rambam Sefer hamitzvos:)

If someone is known to you to be a tzadik, then you follow everything he says, EVEN IF he tells you to temporarily stop doing a mitzvah.

The only exception to this rule is if he tells you a mitzvah is permanently cancelled or if he tells you to serve another god cvs. But these are exceptions to the rule. The rule is as above.

You’re right Its my fault. I should have waited to see if they were approved before the follow up ones. Ill.keep in mind next time

I see three of my posts entitled shluchim which addressed concerns of people here, and which I spent a while writing up etc have not been put through. I’m all for honest discussion if it’s honest. If some of my posts are not allowed through while others are in response to peoples requests, then it is impossible to have a fair open conversation as we have been on this thread, so I guess I won’t writeup any more responses until they are allowed through. Generally though I am impressed with the integrity here, of allowing all sides free reign to actually discuss the topics, and that’s why I submitted the coverting posts which should have been follow up, before waiting to see if the shluchim posts were allowed through. I hope this honesty continues

Approving your posts is not about having honest discussion. Not everything that is sent can be approved. Period. The fact that we take excessive amounts of time to sift through them, editing if possible instead of outright deleting should be something you are thankful for, not accusing. This particular “set” of posts is only being held back in it’s entirety due to consideration on our part for your time. We can easily hold back post 1 and send thru post 3 but have decided to see if they could remain in order. Your indignance is out of place.

To TT:

Let me clarify something. I admire your insistence in being who you are, no two faced etc as a pnimi should. However I strongly disagree with what you say, and this is NOT because of a lack of political correctness (btw you have still not given me one example of where I perverted or twisted or misrepresented the Rebbe), it is because what is inside you and therefore what you are expressing- are wrong.

To explain:
You brought me a Sheine maase which, while not being politically correct, emphasises the teirkeit of Chassidus.

Now I have a (more well known) maase for you:

As children, the Raza was shorter than his younger brother the future Rebbe Rashab. Once he got annoyed, and pushed his younger brother into a pit. He then stood over the pit proudly pronouncing himself taller. The Rebbe Maharash, his father, called him in and proceeded to tell him that he could have made himself taller by standing on a chair. There is no need to push others down to promote yourself and it is not a good thing…

Now, I have learned Tanya, some of it Baal peh. In perek 12 if I’m not mistaken, on the last page, the Alter Rebbe tells us that if a bad thought enters your mind about another yid, even if you have a right to be upset (like Yosef with his brothers) you must immediately push it away bshtei yodayim and not dwell.on it as dwelling on it is an aveira.

I strive to live this way myself, as a chossid and turn negative thoughts about others into positivity by focusing on the good in them. Now of course if I think this way, kal vchomer my speech in general reflects that. Don’t get me wrong. I slip up sometimes and am not yet a beinoni. But I try. And my friends do the same.

Now do I know about the individuals you mention? Of course. Actually, regarding Rav shach, all I knew was that the Rebbe strongly disagreed with his words on abc. I didn’t know more until I came to this forum and heard people quoting different things in his name. I didn’t go asking all my lubavitch friends to fill me in as I didn’t want to delve in mud. I looked up a non partial factual covering of the story with no shmutz of epithets etc mixed in, just to educate myself on the topic.

The other individual came up when I learned about the history of tomchei tmimim in ww2. Other than that, I don’t think about either of them and I definitely don’t talk about them. This is the way of the Rebbe.

To be continued.

Rso

“Please supply a source. And if you manage to do that please explain how you can then say that just as Rashbi was an exception so is someone else who I choose.

That’s like saying that since Chazal explained that cooking on Shabbos is forbidden I extend that and say that cooling things down is also forbidden.”

I think you’re misunderstanding the idea especially by the example you cite. But al rishon rishon: regarding Rashbi it is written that he was so beyond his colleagues that they couldn’t understand the extent of his greatness, they couldn’t even relate to him at all. Classical source. Probably gemara. Don’t remember offhand sorry. Maybe someone else would.

Here’s one i do know offhand: Regarding the Rambam it is written “MiMoshe ad Moshe lo kam kMoshe”. Hey. How can you say that if yeridas hadoros is a halacha or an ironclad rule?

Well it obviously isn’t. It’s not ideal and not something we strive to do like halacha (as in your example of hilchos shabbos). Rather it is a statement of observation of fact.

Fact: the term Gaon today and Gaon in the Gra / Alter Rebbe’s times mean completely different things due to yeridas hadoros.

But no one told each generation to lower their standard of learning and greatness. We strive to be the best we can. Just in an overall generational sense, each generation is lower.

“Converting” 2 (final):

Now I just want to reemphasize what I mean and what I don’t mean with the above post.

Am Yisrael is one body and we need every limb or kreiz to be whole just as you need every limb for the entire body to be complete. Back in the day every shevet had their own nusach in davening. Today we need the balance of the frum zionists and the anti zionists. The Kollel learners and the shluchim. Litvaks and chassidim. Askenazim and sefardim. Am Yisrael is complete precisely with diversity and that is its beauty – shivim panim la Torah, and my previous post in no way negates that.

In fact within Chabad you have this diversity represented as well – you have sefardi Chabad women who wear tichels (and as long as they completely cover all hair, everyone applauds them for it. That’s their shitta and chumra.) You have Chabad sefardim who eat rice on pesach, and the askenazim who don’t. You have chassidim who have joined from other kreizin who keep their levush and long peyos with the Rebbe’s explicit encouragement. Etc.

So here’s what it boils down to: if it’s a specific horaah from the Rebbe that can only add and not contradict other minhagim or chumros, we can and do encourage it. Like saying chitas (which there are many stories of people who’ve had yeshuos from), joining the learning Rambam campaign (so all of klal Yisrael, men women and children, can unite through learning whichever track best suits them on the same Torah topic), the 12 pesukim etc.

If it’s something that can take away from other minhagim or chumros, even if by us it is a Chumra (like sheitel, no rice on pesach, peyos length etc.) then we say go by your minhagim and don’t drop them just because lubavitch does different.

To conclude: when moshiach comes, and techias hameisim happens, there will be the Avos, Moshe Rabbeinu himself and all the Tannaim, Amoraim and tzaddikim from all the generations. They will not be held in any less regard just because well unite under moshiach. They will still teach Torah and give guidance etc. Just they themselves will learn from moshiach because he will be the greatest of all. May it happen asap. Amen.

Syag his way of writing and expressions (I mean the Yiddish etc not the content) are hard to fake…. That’s what makes us think he’s lubavitcher

But i don’t agree with his ways at all. Am I a proud chossid? Certainly. But to me being a chossid means working on myself and trying to emulate the Rebbe’s ways, not using admiration for the Rebbe as a way to bash others.

OK I still have a big question to answer which I will but I just want to address tt:

Listen, what made the Rebbe so great? As you said mishichmoi ulmaala etc? It was his ahavas yisrael for every yid no matter who and what level they were.

Regarding the Brocha in yavne I find that ridiculous as I’m sure you know the Frierdiker Rebbe said there are no true apikorsim today, and anyhow it makes no sense because questioning the Rebbe if you’re not his chossid does not an apikoros make.

Additionally, please provide me even one place where the Rebbe spoke in such a derogatory tone as you do. I just don’t get it. The whole Rebbe’s greatness was that he didn’t care for his kovod and even took his name off things that he felt would benefit people who don’t like lubavitch, so they wouldn’t lose out from not sending to the program/school etc because they werent lubavitch.

You with your lack of ahavas yisrael and utter derision just sound completely foolish and defeat the whole reason of why the Rebbe is great to begin with. You understand?

Even when the Rebbe spoke about Rav Shach, he never attacked him personally, he attacked things he said that the Rebbe felt were really wrong and problematic.

And youre upset I call him Rav Shach? Guess what? If he was Joe Shmoe he wouldn’t warrant a mention of any type at the Rebbe’s farbrengen. It was precisely because he was a Torah leader that the Rebbe cared to strongly disagree with his words.

As for the other individual you mention, the Rebbe refused to talk about him. And you should do likewise.

Lastly ever hear of the Rebbe’s request of oirois dtohu bkeilim dtikkun?? You ain’t doing no one no favor with the way you speak.

As I said the hayom yom sums it up perfectly: whats the point of all your chassidishe pride if the ikkar is missing – ahavas yisrael??

You may be older than me but your behaviour does not represent what I would expect from the Rebbe’s chossid – I would expect you to do better than me if you are older.

Ever heard of the term chossid shoite? Youre such a proud chossid but it would do to emulate the Rebbe’s behaviour instead of just admiring him.

Forgive me for being harsh – but I have no other way to reach you. We can’t farbreng behind closed doors and your posts don’t allow me to ignore you, a fellow chossid, any longer.

OK everyone please excuse our closet talk

Neville you misunderstood me. My parents aren’t/ weren’t litvaks. This was a story I heard from a friend

Finally to address the concerns of syag, samthenylic and others I will begin by giving rso a long overdue compliment and then fully answering the question, but I will wait to see if my other posts are approved first as I think all are necessary to put together the puzzle. This may mean I may need to wait till tomorrow to get to answering, but I WILL answer it iyh.

Brainwashed post 1:
Regarding being “brainwashed” as has been brought up many times in this thread:

Firstly I find this term quite out of its true meaning because as lubavitchers, we are the most exposed to other yidden from all walks of life and the least locked away from looking into other drachim if we should so desire. We don’t face communal/ familial ostracism etc.

So yall just using brainwashed as a derogatory term for educated, in which case you are all equally “brainwashed” as we are all affected by our education.

But I want to share a story with you I heard several days ago from someone who became lubavitch and was not born into it so she cannot be called “brainwashed” in any way and I found her story to really help me understand people here better:

Rso

“It’s not lashon hara if there is a clear to’eles, and the to’eles I’m aiming for is twofold. First, to show you and your colleagues that you have what to fix up urgently before preaching. Second, to warn others of the situation so that they shouldn’t be blindly caught up by your nice friendly explanations of how fantastic lubavich is. Your chassidus’s lack of tznius is a great danger to everybody who is involved with them, and IMHO it is even more dangerous than a lot of the other stuff I have been protesting..”

I must say rso that you are very tempting and maybe right in a private conversation but I do feel the internet warrants am additional measure of concern with the various issurim. This is also ironic. You (ok DY) finally got me to apologise on something unequivocally and now you want me to retract it.

Regardless I will tell you that I agree with you on this point , and will tell everyone else as well: you may be risking your daughter’s tznius by sending her to lubavitch UNLESS you are a full fledged lubavitcher. I wouldn’t advise you to send your kids to our schools as any chinuch expert will tell you, it’s important that the school and home share the same hashkafa and outlook for best results. The reverse is true as well. I know lubavitchers (not shluchim) who have sent their daughters to BY and chassidishe schools so they would come
out with better tznius results and the results unfortunately we’re disastrous. One of those same families sent their following daughters to lubavitch schools and they ended up with much better results.

Non political and others post 3:

I’m not interested in bringing those stories to prove other tzaddikim deferring to the Rebbe as Nossi etc because that would defeat my purpose and I want to stress this point clearly:

My point was to explain why I hold of my Rebbe as I do. My point is not to force you unwillingly, by intellectual gun point type evidence, to see my Rebbe as the Moshe Rabbeinu of the same way as I do, because that is not the way of Torah.

The way of Torah has always been that each person chooses which Torah leader and approach resonates best with them, and they choose that leader to be the one to guide them in their Avodas Hashem. One may even disobey his parents wishes on where he should learn because this is such a strong value.

In fact that’s precisely how we’ve determined who’s
who in the Torah world, who’s a tzadik etc throughout all the generations: generally by two categories:

1) how many Torah yidden accept their teachings and follow them long term (the Rambam was originally highly controversial but is now universally accepted and acclaimed as a tzadik)

2) other tzaddikim who can see soul levels testifying about the status of said individual.

But it is done because it resonates with the neshama not because they’ve been fear mongered into it or lost a debat. And for that reason alone it is a good thing that most of us don’t have access to see the heavenly realms and determine who’s who in fact.

In fact this is the way Hashem has set up how we accept Him:
Do we have evidence He exists? Yes and no. It is based on emuna but there are many logical proofs. However we are spiritually blinded to the point that we can’t point to a leaf and show the koach of Hashem animating it every second – we can’t prove it in a gun to your head you have no choice about it kind of way. Because Hashem wants us to come to serve Him out of conviction and love, not purely out of force and fear.

Np (post 1):
“Step 1 – None of those abilities are unique to a Tzadik (meaning that even non-tzadikim can have them)
Step 2 – Therefore having these abilities does not establish one who possesses them as a Tzadik.”

I am not sure about this – I have seen inside shaar hayichud vihoemuna where the Alter Rebbe states that Hashem increases emuna in this world by revealing His abilities through the tzadikim and the miracles they do.

This would imply that only tzaddikim do miracles but I’m open to hearing other sources that show otherwise, if you have. In a similar vein, tzadik gozer vHKBH mekayem etc.

Yes every Jew has the ability to rise above nature by adhering to Torah and mitzvos, but to promise and come through on miracles, and to decree them with the certainty that Hashem will fulfill seems to be something unique to tzaddikim (unless you have a source showing otherwise.)

Uncle ben, they may not be. But I was saying from a hashkafic point of view, i dont see it to be seen as a problem in my neighbourhood which is litvish and modern chassidish . Regardless even if it’s not the same community, I don’t see how teaching children pesukim by heart is a problem.

Sure I’ll get to that syag

Coffee addict, laskern

“And Avraham didn’t have nisyonos? So that made h a beinoni (according to your definition)

Is there someone according to your definition of צדיק and if so name one because everyone has נסיונות even משה רבינו”

Coffee addict im glad you clarified your question because I see what I wrote has been misunderstood. Allow me to explain (laskern this answers your question as well.)

Everyone has challenges tzaddikim included. Everyone needs to better themselves, tzaddikim included. In fact, if a tzadik doesn’t work on himself, he can fall and even become a rasha as has happened in history with yochanan kohen gadol.

So what’s the difference between rasha beinoni tzadik (according to Tanyas definition)? What the struggle is about.

Each category is immense and can include many madreigos in itself.

Rasha vra lo- does aveiros and feels no remorse. (Category of rasha which we don’t fall into bh as koshere yidden.)

Rasha vtov lo struggles with his yetzer hara and falls. But he regrets it. Now this is a very broad category of people. Because it includes on the bottom people that do multiple aveiros bmaase every day, and feel bad once in awhile, to the person who sins in his thoughts once a year say, and does teshuva over it, but his teshuva doesn’t prevent him from falling again.

Most yidden fit into this category but the Alter Rebbe advises us to think of ourselves as want to be beinonim, and strive to live as a beinoni moment but moment, to avoid depression or not taking aveiros seriously.

Beinoni: is on the level where even though he struggles with his yetzer hara on aveira matters, but he doesn’t give in and he knows he won’t give in (like a super hot shabbos but you know you won’t turn on the air conditioning.)

All of us can strive to live as a minute by minute beinoni taking each minute and trying to fulfill Hashem’s ratzon theno, even if we may not be holding by the mindset of a beinoni which doesn’t allow him to give into the bad.

Finally, there is the tzadik.

Tzadik: doesn’t struggle with actual aveira matters but

Tzadik vra lo: struggles with how much he tolerates evil – as the toleration shows that there is room for it. The more he increases his love of Hashem, the less he tolerates evil. Until he can reach the pinnacle where he completely evicts his personal yetzer to do evil, has ultimate ahavas Hashem, and zero tolerance for evil. As Dovid hamelech was able to conclude – tachlis sina sineisim.

Now even tzaddikim need to grow. And they are tested as well. But their tests are centered around how much in line they are with ratzon Hashem, and in general their avoda revolves around refining their feelings. Whereas the lower levels revolve around refining practical expressions of the bad within: controlling our thought speech and action. Not the thought that firsts pops into your head, but the decision whether to keep thinking about it.

So we all have the power to control our thought speech and action. Transforming the feelings behind them is not for most of us and the status of tzadik is only for Hashem to choose who gets to have that potential for their avoda, which isn’t the majority.

(Although there are some aspects of tzadik that we are promised to reach if we truly do all within our power.)

Rso
Regarding what you see as problems in lubavitch that result from the Rebbes shittos, the only way to properly discuss that is to analyse the extent of the problems in our community and yours and see which is worse. Since as Daas yochid pointed out that is not ok as it infringes on issurim, I have retracted that mode of addressing it and I would advise you and DY as well to abide by the same halacha I am being expected to abide by.

What we can do is discuss the various shittos and standards themselves and I can do that if you wish, after I finish this sugya clarifying the answers to the questions on why we view the Rebbe as we do.

Hey everyone I really like all the follow up posts. They’re expressing different views, even strongly dissenting views but in a respectfully worded manner. This makes my night. I’ll respond more tomorrow iyh, to you all in order hopefully (ok with one exception lol but you know already…) anyhow with the situation as it is in eretz Yisrael, can we do something special together? I think this coffee room is very special because we literally have acheinu beis Yisrael in many countries represented on it (do we have sefardim though?) so can we stop with the discussion for a minute and maybe each of us take a yom tehillim divided according to the month for eretz Yisrael? Imagine how powerful that tehillim will be!! I’ll take yom aleph. Anyone game? Or have another idea? Its even on topic – it’ll for sure bring moshiach faster.

DY your right. I should not have said that. Neville to Assange your concerns, anything I may have hinted to was only for those who dress all tznius/ full lvush but lead double lives because of communal pressure. Cvs not the real frum ones who are of course yereim ushlemim etc.

Rso
“And you didn’t address my latest challenge: Based on the rule you brought that “im rishonim …” do lubavichers agree that the Rashba was greater than your rebbe?”

They were definitely both tzaddikim. More likely the Rashba was greater as he lived in a much earlier generation. I do recall someone of note (don’t remember the name offhand and don’t think it anyhow makes such a difference to you) saying that the Rebbe would have been someone special even with the greats back in the day… So I cannot say for sure. Like I said I’m not able to assess souls so I can’t check it up for you.

“One of the “tricks” Lubachivers use when speaking to other frum Yidden is, “Everybody agrees that the rebbe was one of the greatest tzaddikim of the generation…” and from there it’s not a great leap to convince everyone that only chabad chassidus is the true derech of the Baal Shem, and that we should all be sending out children to chabad schools etc etc etc.”

Not true. Everyone should have their own shittos, Rabbanim, schools. In fact, the Rebbe instructed his shluchim to Morocco that when they did establish schools for the locals to save them from the not frum zionist school, they should in no way change the minhagim of the sephardim.

And when a yid from Montreal came to the Rebbe and complained his chassidim were against him opening a new school in Montreal for a bunch of parents he was representing, but they didn’t want to let him have any say in picking teachers, the Rebbe sided with him and gave him a Bracha to open a new school. We don’t want or need everyone in lubavitch schools and abandoning their own mesora. We respect that there are many legitimate paths to Avodas Hashem.

Sam
“The World is in a State of Geulah” Halvay it was at the end of Golus!”

Yeah. It’s not a contradiction. See the op.

“Meanwhile there is fierce fighting in the Gaza area, riots in the West Bank, problems in Europe, fires on the West Coast, not to talk about political problems all over.
WHERE IS THE GEULAH?”

Agreed. Let’s daven for it like that.

“Moshiach will come “b’hesech hadaas”.

True. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t await him every day as the yud gimmel ikrim state. It means that in spite of awaiting him every day, it will STILL be a shock when it actually happens…

“Let’s leave Bias Hamoshiach to Hashem,”

Obviously it’s up to Hashem. But you just said “WHERE IS MOSHIACH?” Both can coexist.

“and we should concentrate on mizvos uma’asim tovim, ”

Of course. Best way to hasten the Geula.

“AND NO MORE MACHLOKES AMONG DIFFERENT GROUPS”

Sounds good. I suppose you could be helpful with that by not calling kofer on a topic you yourself said you have no clue about. But again, totally agree.

Laskern
“Chanoch was taken away from this world because he did not want to mix with people. Hashem does not need malochim in this world. We need a yetzer horah who encourages us to do bad but we refuse it and do good.
It says שחורה אני ונאוה I can be black by doing bad but if I am able to avoid it, I become beautiful. A tzadik is one who has a yetzer horah but it is able to avoid following him.”

Laskern I am continuously impressed by your knowledge of a wide range of Torah sources. To understand what I am saying correctly I would suggest you check up Tanya, likutei amarim perek 27. You will find there that there are two types of avoda Hashem enjoys: struggling and overcoming our yetzer hara (as you said) AND the avoda of tzaddikim which is to transform the bad altogether from bad to good without grappling with it.

Rso
” I have a long history of studying and questioning Lubavich, and not getting satisfactory answers to what started out as innocent questions – and I found them unacceptable.”

I would say that there are likely two reasons for this: 1) you are asking the wrong people. There are many extremely learned people in lubavitch, I can list some or maybe one of the menfolk who I’m sure are following silently along can provide a more extensive list if you are interested.

There are many regular chassidim who just accept what the Rebbe says as fact (remember you protesting what happened to Emunas chachamim?) and don’t think through logically what the actual question and answer is. The Rebbe bemoaned this by Farbrengens, when he addressed the lack of critical questions following his rashi sichos. But we definitely have many learned people, and also Roshei Yeshivos who were originally not lubavitch so they can appreciate the actual the questions and answers even more.

2) you have an extremely strong bias which precludes you from actually having a productive, intellectual, source based discussion with them.