CS

Neville I don’t know what you’re on about in your latest thread. Rso was saying its fine to put himself on par with the Rebbe and brought Rav shach as an example to bolster his claim that there is no need to respect the Rebbe.

I find this quite ridiculous as I, or any other frum yid for that matter, would never think I should have equal say to predict what halacha should be for example, as my Rav, because (for arguments sake, let’s say I was a man. Not talking about the man / woman aspect) haven’t studied dayanus, so I know I can’t pasken. Maybe I can guess what the halacha is but I definitely wouldn’t put myself on the same footing. I think anyone that does just looks like a fool.

My Rav would never put himself on the same footing as Rabbi Kanievsky for example who is known to have much more knowledge of Torah than the typical learned Rav.

And any learned yorei shomayim person cannot be put themselves on the same level as a tzadik who is not just a yarei shomayim, but has ruach hakodesh, can read people’s thoughts, and can see what is happening in the heavenly realms. The Rebbe was such a person as has been evidenced by thousands of encounters by people from all walks of life.

So for a regular person to say my personal opinion or interpretation of a source (not backed by ancient sources or tzaddikim etc) is as good as the Rebbe’s interpretation I just find ridiculous. And I don’t see why anyone else wouldn’t.

If I said my knowledge of Torah is as great as Rabbi Kanievsky because we’re both human, or because there is a another Torah giant out there that disagrees with him, I would be equally foolish. This is not a matter of litvish vs. chassidish. We in Chabad respect Rabbi Kanievsky and the chofetz chaim etc. Its simply a matter of knowing your place which I think should be a basic for any frum jew

Stuartw, neville, have you seen the Chabadshlucha explain meshichists thread? Neville I know you have. Unfortunately (I think) it was closed down but I think it is informative if you want to see the take on that. This thread is about how the world / am Yisrael are ready for moshiach. I don’t see a reason to derail this thread. I also don’t why any topic that includes the Rebbe’s viewpoint is seen as fair game for “do you believe the Rebbe’s moshiach? Yes or no.” As if that “settles the matter at hand.

I wouldn’t mind if that thread was unblocked. Someone panicked and said it was creating division amongst klal Yisrael, and the next thing was the mods closed it down. I think pen frank discussion is a good thing, as long as it is open and honest, not a baiting, switch-the-topic-so-I-can get -you-on-this-if-not-on-that type of discussion.

In any case if there is an unresolved question there and it isn’t reopened, and you’d like to explore that topic in am honest manner, feel free to try your luck opening a new thread on it, and I will respond

Rso: you’re really getting off track with the post addressing mine to neville and i suspect it would derail the thread altogether. besides I think we’ve been through that one before on other threads. So I’m gonna ignore it for now and once we’ve addressed the topic at hand, you can remind me to address it. Dw I don’t forget. But I suspect you know the answer as well.

Ladies and gentlemen id like to thank you for keeping me company during the time my husband has gone to the kinnus. It has been (mostly 😜) a true pleasure exchanging thoughts on different threads. I suspect that I will have less time to respond from tomorrow on, so do forgive me if I don’t follow up in as quick a fashion. I will keep in mind, and if it’s a sincere, non baiting question, as most are, will address in due time (as I have revived this thread due to follow up.) Thanks allot again and enjoy your evening 🙂

@Iitft refreshing. Bh moshiach coming is now being spoken about in all circles of klal Yisrael. To me that itself shows its around the corner.

Fascinating story that I referenced before:

The Rebbe Rashab (nistalek tof reish pei, early 1900s) once commented on kapitl 89, last 2 pesukim, that they refer to three generations/ time periods:

“Asher cherfu oivecha Hashem” refers to the anti G-d period.

That will be followed by “Asher cherfu ikvos meshichecha.” Otherwise frum yidden who have a seemingly unexlka allergic reaction to talking about moshiachs coming, although yidden have had moshiach on their minds every day in the harsh golus.

This will be followed by “Baruch Hashem lolam amen vamen.” The time period of the Geula.

The first we saw by the Frierdiker Rebbe – with the rise of every ism other than Judaism.

The next followed by the Rebbe (why does he have to talk about moshiach so much?)

Looks like that is BH waning (ok there are still a few die hards here but overall has been a great shift) and we are approaching the days of moshiach iyh

@yeshivishrockstar

“I also believe that we are on the threshold of Geula – thats why we are back in Eretz Yisrael, and Baruch hashem, we are now zoche do be able to be mekayim a mitzvah that was long gone – techeiles.

If Chabad believes were in ikvisa demeshicha, why don;t they wear techeiles and make aliya?”

Fair question. Several points.

Main point: when Chabad talks about being in ikvasa dimeshicha (as can be seen in my very first post on the thread if I’m not mistaken), we mean it in a spiritual sense, and not in a halachic sense.

Point 2: Re: techeiles- is that specifically only to be worn by moshiach times or separate question. Regardless, as sam said, the consensus amongst halachic authorities is that there has not been found the creature yet which matches ALL the descriptions in chazal about the chilazon. Thats why most of the chareidi crowd does not yet wear it although we’d love to.

Regarding moving to EY specifically, while I think the dati leumi community and others are doing amazing work strengthening the Jewish character of the government, and of settling and securing EY in Jewish and frum hands, the Rebbe’s approach was that if we all run off to eretz hakodesh, we will leave behind all the Jews facing assimilation. Our primary job right now is to bring all the Jews back to Hashem so that we will all go home together when the time is right.

@neville in your second to most recent post, you are putting words in my mouth that I never said or meant. So no need to defend myself.

As far as Lubavitch isolating themselves, well it’s half and half. We are more isolated as our shittos tend to take the middle path (see my earlier post for some examples) and thus manage to differ both from much of the chareidi world but equally differ from MO etc..while also maintaining common ground/,hashkofos with both.

When your motivating factors for instance, centre around different things, like schar vs. Moshiach for a starting point, it is easy to farbreng more with fellow lubavitchers.

But we are also isolated by others. Vhameivin yavin no need to reference machlokes needlessly.

That’s why I love this forum, it enables me to relate and exchange Hashkofos and common ground with other yidden. Yet people like you, (or should I say your second to most recent post, as you’ve actually been much more respectful generally as of late,) are anti semetic against lubavitchers. It’s like we’re the Jews of the Jews, and there are many double standards. For example, you complain we isolate ourselves. Yet when I join this forum, how many times have I heard the sentiment, Stop pushing your Chabad agenda. You’re only talking to us to mekarev us etc.. Think about it.

Or lubavitchers are shluchim so we expect more of them than anyone else. Hey there’s lubavitchers who are jerks, that means you’re all phony two faced jerks. Etc. Just look at your own post and you’ll see. Aside from making up what I said and meant.

With regards to your post that we are meshichist winking and your not oblivious etc. do you want to state straight out – the answer to your question also answers how techias hameisim could also happen first? I don’t find it relevant so I don’t mention. There’s no wink wink. You know what we believe and what we don’t, we’ve had several threads over it. If you’re curious you can ask. Like what do you want me to do? Clap for you every time a lubavitcher references a source that can also somehow apply to the Rebbe being moshiach?

@rso the Rav shach excuse to hate on lubavitch/ disrespect the Rebbe doesn’t wash water with me (is that the correct phrase? Lol I always mix up these axioms) for several reasons. I can definitely expound. But I’m wondering if you are sincere about it, and it will give you what to think about? Or you’ll just find the next thing to bash because if your mind is made up, it isn’t worth writing out. Especially on such a sensitive topic.

Coffee addict: you are correct that there is a gemara that states that, but I have learned a thorough analysis of the topic which makes it clear that not necessarily.

For example, if that were the case, then it would be impossible to apply the anticipating moshiach every day
in practice, because if his coming is contingent on Eliyahu hanavi announcing it three days earlier, then he can’t come today as there was no announcement two days ago….

There’s a whole analysis of the various sources but the conclusion is that that gemara and others, discuss the role of Eliyahu Hanavi. How the Geula and appearance of moshiach will actually unfold though, is not necessarily in that order.

Glad to hear stuartw 🙂 will respond further soon

And besides, I enjoy learning and learning other hashkofos, so I like honest intellectual discussion and exchange of sources but wasting time on farces where instead of discussion its, prove this, prove that, and then just switching topics to another thing and another thing (as can be seen in rso latest post) and never accepting that the first thing has been properly addressed and settled. Now you understand. Thanks etc. In which case wouldn’t mind moving on to something else. Or you still don’t agree because of this source that addresses mine etc which is also fine. Then I’ll address that source and the discussion will continue.

Btw rso I think you do seem to be a learned person and i think we could have a great intellectual exchange and mutual education, but your approach has been that of the above. Change it and we can both be happy 🙂

One more thing on davening: very different personal requests for personal needs, and davening on behalf of others and especially the whole klal Yisrael:

For personal needs, the correct approach is to request, not demand, and accept and make peace with the result.

For others, a demand or even challenge can be praiseworthy
. For example- Moshe Rabbeinu was taught by Hashem to even daven for reshaim, and when he did, he “threatened” Hashem, “V’im ayin, micheini na misifricha.”

Obviously such language would be inappropriate if asking for a higher paycheck or even refuah etc.

Rochel Imeinu challenged Hashem as well, “Can Your mercy be less than Your creations??”

Not exactly polite requests accepting whatever the outcome.

And yet in their zechus, BY were saved from extermination, and Moshe is lauded as the first and prime leader of klal Yisrael, and Rochel was the only one who got the promise of vshavu bonim ligvulum from Hashem.

They werent condemned for inappropriate demands or language, quite the opposite.

I agree stuartw. So actually if you look at the title of this thread, I was explaining our shittos. If someone says that’s really great just my Gadol/ Rebbe has a different approach so I go with that, but good to know why you do yours, I’m fine with that.

And if we’re discussing sources, and you ask for my Rebbe bases his, then you in turn bring your Gadols sources and we can understand eilu veilu are both correct ways, and its good to know.

But if theres no opposition by your Rav but the Rebbe is not good enough as a hashkafic standard, but the Chofetz Chaim is, that’s what annoys me.

In this case rso is not a litvak he is a chossid(by his own admission at least on another thread). So it really rankles when the Rebbe is a non source, but the Chofetz Chaim is kodesh kodoshim and would never dare speak that way about him (as it should be. I’m just saying the same standard should apply to the Rebbe too.)

OTOH, very happy to see that chofetz chaim, as it goes to show its a Jewish thing, not just a lubavitch thing, which is what I was saying all along.

I can respond tomorrow if desired

Hmm Stuartw how would you word it? What they do is wrong. I’m not concerned about being pc. I think Dan lchaf zechus bases are covered by not assigning them necessarily evil intentions, and saying its not Avodas Hashem is quite a soft way of putting it while still acknowledging its wrong. But open to hearing your thoughts.

Joseph, I learned this in seminary in the subject where we went through each of the zman grama mitzvos and why women do or don’t do them. The Rabbis there were very learned, Id be surprised if the Tzitzis thing was just based on a bubbe maase as everything was sourced. Not knowing something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist or is a bubbe maase, it just means you haven’t learned it yet.

Otoh, I acknowledge that it isn’t fair to expect you to believe me without any source, just my recollection learning it. I wouldn’t mind being wrong on this point either, as I’ll be the first to admit that today, as I said above, women wearing tzitzis is not associated with Avodas Hashem. So you can not believe me. I do trust my recollection and have faith in the integrity of my teachers. Hopefully someone else here will be able to clear it up with the source

@rso its quite strange to me at least that you make as if desperately wanting moshiach is a negative thing. I’ve posted above regarding 1) how often and urgent we request in davening – MEHEIRA satzmiach 2) ad mosai in tehillim and kinos 3) lama nigara

How do we know that this is what Hashem wants?! Can you bring me one source that Hashem is happy that were in golus? He’d like it better if we’d tone down the rhetoric and desire to get out of golus?

There are tens of sources otherwise.
1) VSHAV Hashem – He is in golus and suffering with us.2) appeared to Moshe in a thorn bush to symbolise that any time were in pain, He is too. Etc.

And you make as if I’m the one creating things in Yiddishkeit? It maybe the Rebbe?

I’m very curious. Where do you get the idea that its a good thing to be quiet about golus? And a bad thing to cry out for moshiach? Cuz I don’t see it in Torah

5ish unfortunately I don’t know the exact source offhand. All I know is that I learned that certain righteous women (who is course already did all their mitzvos and were eager to do more) discreetly wore Tzitzis underneath their garments. Rashis daughters are one example. Maybe some of the menfolk here have come across this and can give you the exact source.

Again this was not for regular women, it was women of extreme piety.

Correction : we wouldn’t sleep well in a lit up world

Meno apparently that will change as well. Currently we wouldn’t sleep well in a dark world.

Stuart thank you. I find it fascinating for two reasons: 1) that usually women wearing Tzitzis is associated with the complete opposite than serving Hashem (although to be fair it is also a sign of extreme righteousness as long as done in a quiet fashion, and there were women throughout history who wore Tzitzis on top of their mandatory obligations)
So it’s interesting to see it in a completely different light. Almost funny, like a joke. Sudden change of perspective.

Also find it fascinating in terms of thinking of Tzitzis fashion that will invariably arise if it becomes part of a womans wardrobe. In fact it is likely there will be the standard tzitzis for men, just with techeiles, while women designers will design feminine tzitzis friendly designs too wear as part of the clothing… Funny to think about.

Also being that I am expecting to see moshiach in the near future, it does look like something that will directly impact me as well.

OK here goes the logic: since the moon will shine like the sun, the mitzvah of Tzitzis will apply at night too which removes it from the category of a mitzvah shehazman grama, hence its application to women.

Why will it be applicable at night? The reason why its only a chiyuv by day now is because the mitzvah is uriisem oso. Since at night out is dark, the mitzvah doesn’t apply then. However by moshiach as above-mentioned, the moon will shine too. So we will see the Tzitzis by night too and will be mechuyav to wear by night

Mdg im talking halachically, not pontificating about how the Geula will happen…

Post two:

This is far from the only instance of forceful language used in tanach. In fact regarding the pain of the churban golus, we find the expression in tehillim “Ad mosai yichoref tzor?!”

Apparently there is a whole kinos written which starts off every stanza with ad mosai- until when??

Another point:

We can philosophize and bring proof along the above lines, but on a practical note, if cvs a dear family member is in danger, are you very careful to daven with the proper platitudes along the lines of “Hashem, if it’s OK with You and You’re up to it, please heal me relative. If You don’t want to, I’ll accept that too.”

Or do you scream with pain and say “Hashem, save her! She’s your child!! We deserve better!!” Etc

One may say well, yes we would choose the latter, but that’s because we’re speaking from pain. But with the Geula, we should use proper polite platitudes…

Then that is exactly the issue!! Why should the Shechina being in golus, and the entire Am Yisrael unable to see and experience Hashem in a revealed way, exiled from our Father’s table, matter less to us than an individual yids suffering?? We should all cry out to Hashem Ad mosai?? We want moshiach now!!