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Better yet, since the Rebbe was referring to the Frierdiker Rebbe after his histalkus, I’ll give you a story I just heard today :
A lubavitcher chossid had to buy gf stuff for his wife. So he went to a gf store in boro park where the cashier told him this story :
Rabbi katz in BP (There are three) Once wrote to the Rebbe and never got an answer. After gimmel tammuz he got a call that a letter had been found for him from years before.
In it, the Rebbe answered his question from years before, plus wished him a refuah sheleima. There were seven dollars enclosed for each of his children.
The thing is he had gotten sick after gimmel tammuz, and he had seven kids when he got the letter but only five when he wrote it!
This is what it means the Rebbe is able to do anything.
Normally people are limited by nature. Tzaddikim aren’t m
DY in Chassidus we question why things are the way they are all the time. And since asking “Rebbe help me with…” Can sound like the same idea as davening, because only Hashem provides us with our needs, why is it OK to ask a tzadik to daven for you or even to help you, as yidden do? That’s what the answer is addressing.
As far as kol yachol, if you look it says yachol hakol, not kol yachol. Yachol hakol means the Rebbe can do anything. Which is true. A tzadik, by connecting himself to the power of Hashem, is not limited by nature, and can do the impossible.
I personally know a woman who the doctors said can’t have any children. Physically. She got a Bracha from the Rebbe and had 15.
Finally @DY you have proven yourself to be a worthy dialogue partner. So please, now that you read and understood all the posts, especially SHY long one and my hashkafa one, go back, read the sicha, and you’ll see there is no issue.
If there are any further questions from you I’ll be happy to hear and address
Sechel I don’t think people hate us. I think they just had a different reality than we did about tzaddikim etc . That’s why I’m trying to clear it up
minor correction : you can leave the concept of Nossi hador out of this one. Just addressing the definition of tzadik. There can be a few Tzaddikim per generation or maybe more than a few tzadik vra los- who have a drugged yetzer hara
“Sad story, but your conclusion is quite radical. There have always been charlatans and semi-charlatans. To decide because of one incident that you are speaking a different language to the rest of the world is ludicrous.”
You’re right if it was one incident. That was just the first. Btew I never said he only cared about that, just that his granddaughter said it mattered to him.
I could give you other examples if you want but I don’t think anyone wants that.
In fact the post I was responding to was expressing the same notion: no one else today, aside from us, considers their Rebbe to be a tzadik of Tanya. My point in the story was that the girl herself admitted it used to be that way by them to, just there’s been yeridas Hadoros.
In fact its been reiterated by the reactiond on this thread over and over. The fact that toi went crazy when I said that in no closer to becoming the Rebbe than becoming a malach proves he hasn’t seen a tzadik at this level before or he wouldn’t make a fuss.
The fact that when I described some of the things the Rebbe was able to do in a regular basis, someone responded that magic doesn’t prove anything shows me that unfortunately for this fellow, being able to accomplish things above nature he only associates with the power of klipa not kedusha.
Etc etc etc
Now just to make it clear, I would never come on this forum and start a thread on who is the Nasi hador etc etc. That woukd be heipech everything Chassidus stands for. But sometimes, I feel the concept has to be brought in because it is the answer to people who are puzzled why we treat our Rebbe differently than everyone else.
They’re thinking we took a regular special person and elevated him to the level of a malach in our own heads. When in reality, anyone who came in contact with the Rebbe can tell you that they experienced revealed Elokus, just like you would with a malach.
The way I and any other lubavitcher would understand your post is as follows:
You should reconsider accepting what a tzadik gamur says because a bunch of reshaim vtov lahem (again Tanya definitions here, I would be in the same category) have difficulty with what he says.
Hmm the polite response would be “bmakom gedolim al taamod”
@neville
You actually have impressed me with this discussion so I’m gonna take you seriously and respond.
“So, in what mesorah is this stuff OK? Sphard? Teimani? Ashkenaz?”
All the above. Someone mentioned similar stuff by the baba sali, and there were two litvishe sources quoted that area saying the same idea.
“Do you get the crux of the argument here? Chabad is an invented mesoret. Lubavitchers all have ancestors that were Ashkenazim or Sphardim, etc. If we accept your principle, what’s to stop me from making up “Minhag Neville” that says it’s OK to worship me as a god? How are you going to argue with me? It’s my minhag! It goes all the way back to the beginning of the Neville movement!”
Im sorry you feel that way. First of all the Rebbeim never declared anything about themselves but about a previous Rebbe.
Second of all in order to establish Minhag Neville, you would have to be accepted by existing gedolim as a real gadol, and be chosen by chassidim as their Rebbe. In lubavitch specifically, our Rebbeim were chosen by chassidim only, sometimes against the wishes of the family members. Our Rebbeim often fought against becoming Rebbe and weren’t seeking to establish their nesius at all.
The lubavitch movement btw goes back to the Alter Rebbe who was accepted as a Gaon beyond. He wrote the shulchan aruch HaRav. Many of the Geonim who had fought him bitterly, become his chassidim.
This post read as absurd to me but I took the time to respond seriously because it looks like you are sincere.
Hi I don’t know if you’ll find an ffb answer because every frum community can give you a different answer for example, Chabad, Satmar, Litvish and modern orthodox communities would all have a different approach and Outlook on the matter. Which is fine but it can be confusing for the newly frum. It would help if you identify which community you belong to and ask the rabbis of that community.
Also the third beis Hamikdash is gonna look different than the other two and we need moshiach to tell us how to build it as it’s unclear how to build it from the actual nevuah.
Also there’s four opinions who needs to build it and what that entails:
1) Hashem
2) Moshiach
3) bnei Yisrael
4) just put on the doorsThere’s a sicha on all the opinions and how we can be mekayem all, just haven’t learned it in awhile.
@mods if you don’t like that one, I understand, no need to post. Just trying to answer questions.
“1. Your understanding of what a Tzadik is, as is stated in the Tanya is not a belief shared by any other contemporary frum Jews. This includes other Chasidim. I saw a few posters makes statements to the effect that other Chasidim have a more extreme view of the nature of a Tzadik. This is false. Maybe it was true in the past, but it certainly isn’t now (personally I think this was never the case).”
I encountered something along these lines when I was in eighth grade. I was a counselor together with anther girl who was the granddaughter of a Rebbe in EY. She was boasting to me how her grandfather the Rebbe had a fancy car and house.
To me that sounded very foreign and not like “Rebbe” material so I asked her puzzled, “why would a review care about a fancy house and car?”
She answred “everyone has a different yetzer hara. Some like kovod, others like fancy stuff.”
Now I was even more confused. “Wait isn’t the Rebbe a tzadik who doesn’t have a yetzer hara?”
She answred “it used to be like that, but now there’s been yeridas Hadoros…”
At that point I understood that when I say tzadik or Rebbe, and someone else does, were not speaking the same language.
But other chassidim get the concept, because before the holocaust they also had their fair share of tzaddikim like the Tanya.
In the litvishe world, I’ve heard that the Rebbe said R Yisrael Salanter was a tzadik of the Tanya.
“the “baalei nigleh” he refers to would not be complaining “b’raash gadol”.
Well just look at this thread. If you don’t learn Tanya I guess got don’t get it. If it was so simple, there would be no thread.
As far as why other tzaddikim disagreed, each tzadik’s source in the sefiros direct the way he serves Hashem. Fire example, Avraham Avinu personified chessed of atzilus, while Yitzchak did gevurah.
So tzaddikim can disagree because their neshama and Avodas Hashem can be rooted in different sefiros
There are twelve shvatim not just one. Ailu vailu divrei Elokim chaim.
Sorry use I misunderstood ploni. The problem he was addressing is WHY is it OK to ask a tzadik to help you out like people do when they ask Rebbeim for brachos. Or daven BY (not to) the kever. Halacha says it’s fine, he’s addressing the Hashkofa of why
“To outsiders this tendency feels like a rejection of fundamental ideals in the Gemara such as Lo BaShomayim Hi, or that Nevua has ended, etc. For everyone else, unless you are a Navi you need to explain yourself, make your case no matter how great a Tzadik or Talmud Chocham you are”
I don’t get what a Rebbe has to do with lo bashomayim as he is a physical person. For the record there is a sicha addressing the point you bring about nevuah, although the place isn’t here to address it as this thread is already too flying.
“He should have simply said they misunderstood him, it’s not a chiddush, it’s accepted in every circle to ask a tzaddik to daven for us, and sourced explicit Chazal saying this.”
Youre misunderstanding. The chiddush is WHY its OK. Not the fact that it is OK. Chassidus goes into the Why. That’s why it’s part of pnimius HaTorah
BTW I learned this sicha in my own time in high school and never took it in this perverted way of cvs seeing it until this very thread. Has been an eye opener for me to be careful when talking to non lubavitchers who don’t learn Tanya as they can get things completely upside down.
“Great, now for step two. Since betten does not mean tefila, then what was the problem the Lubavitcher Rebbe was trying to answer by saying his father-in-law was “Atzmuso uMahuso araingeshtelt in a guf?” (From the context this is clearly particular to him or Tzadikim generally not all Jews, so don’t say he was referring to the fact that every Jew has a chelek eloka mimaal.)”
Exactly our point there is no problem. Except when people like toi twist it out of context to make it into one which no lubavitcher has done because we all understand it like Tanya etc
Exactly again! Every yid is atzmus umehus araingeshtelt in a guf at their core, but they don’t express it all the time becuse their yetzer hara and nefesh habehamis get in the way with other agendas. A tzadik though lives this reality so he is atzmus umehus araingeshtelt in a guf in a revealed way, because he is practically batul not just potentially.
@rso you misunderstood me. My point is that if cvs anyone of them thought the Rebbe was encouraging kefira cvs, they would definitely not visit them. So my point is no one should be questioning the Rebbe as no one can put themselves on the same level as any of them.
“B) If not, what problem was the Lubavitcher Rebbe’s teirutz of “Atzmuso uMahuso etc.,” meant to answer? Either betten is not tefilah, therefore you can bett anything and there is no problem of avodah zara (maybe just tipshus) and his teirutz is unnecessary, or it is tefilah and his answer is explaining why while betten a normal person WOULD be avodah zara, betten a Tzadik is not.”
In other words, it is not tefilla, but sounds like it. So what’s the difference? The difference is that when you ask the Rebbe you are asking Hahem to help through the tzadik as we Hashem and tzaddikim are one, as elucidated in perek beis Tanya and explained very well by SHY.
“C) If you say that you cannot bett a normal person, but can bett a Tzadik, this is a tremendous chiddush.”
Yes and no. I wouldn’t ask a normal person to help me like a tzadik because they can’t because Hahem doesn’t work through them because they aren’t completely batul to that level.
No because there is no new practice being instituted here, rather am explanation of an old accepted minhag of davening by kivrei tzaddikim, even brought down in halacha. Before rosh hashana for example.
OK here goes:
“A) Is “betten” a Rebbe the same as praying to a Rebbe?”
No cvs if you’ve been following along the discussion, you should be able to understand me now when I say, no one davens to the Rebbe cvs. We daven to Hashem who works through the Rebbe.
I think the expression is betten beim Rebbe, not betten tzu Rebbe.
I think it may be helpful to clarify the difference between davening, betten beim Rebbe, and a Brocha:
Davening – we daven three times a day at least. When we daven, we talk to Hashem and ask Him for our needs. We are careful not to daven to any picture, and no one would daven shmona esre to the Rebbe for example cvs. Davening is for Hashem only.
Brocha is explained in Chassidus as the idea of hamavrich es hagefen. Like hamshocha. The concept is that every Rosh hashana, Hashem allots all the good were gonna get that year in a spiritual bank account so to speak, and through davening every day, we draw it down through the spiritual worlds into physical good in this world.
Now sometimes, it can get stuck at a spiritual point. The Brocha of a tzadik helps clear the way and bring it down.
For example, let’s say a person is allotted children, but hasn’t had any yet. The tzadik can bentch him to make that happen in this world. But if he isn’t meant to have children, then there is no Brocha to bring down.
Now the chiddush by a Rebbe is that he is also Hashem’s messenger. So when someone goes betten beim Rebben the Rebbe can tell him, the reason he doesn’t have children is because he needs to do such and such mitzva first for example. The person wouldn’t know what is the story or what he can do to get his Brocha from just davening shmona esre.
OK in this context the Rebbe was talking about betten beim Rebben by the kever of the Frierdiker Rebbe.
Now all the time people will go to kvarim and say Rebbe hello me! So the question is wait, isn’t that davening? Shouldn’t it be only reserved for Hashem?
So the Rebbe is answering why people can daven by the kever of a tzadik.
Plainploni i really liked your post – its written clearly, logically, asking for understanding. So I’ll be happy to address it. SH that’s a great post to give understanding on how talmidei chachomim of the generation / the Rebbe is the brain – thanks so much for posting that here.also great on mimutza hamechaber.
I’ll answer plonis well formulated question on betten the Rebbe iyh
Even regular people can reach this to some extent – just listen to the Rubashkin stories. Don’t know what you’re while fuss is about. Unless as commented above.
As far as any distinctions about after histalkus, the Alter Rebbe clearly addresses this in iggros kodesh or kuntres acharon where he brings the statement of the Zohar that a tzadik is found in this world even more after his passing and cares and sends hashpaos to his mekusharim. So I think I’ve addressed everything. Everyone happy now?
Any yid is supposed to be able to rule the world instead of the world ruling him and control nature. The Rebbe or any tzadik just actually lives up to this potential by living with this higher level of kedusha that’s all.
So when I was walking to school I realized why people are squirming with how we treat our Rebbe. Because I would also squirm if anyone treated the respected Rabbonim and chassidim of lubavitch like that.
Like the Rosh, Rav Shusterman, Sholom mordechai Rubashkin etc.
Because at the end of the day, they’re regular albeit very special people and treating them like we have described above would make me squirm as well, it wouldn’t feel right, no matter what sources I would see.
And so I get it.
So here’s the thing. As much as I say tzadik of Tanya, if you haven’t experienced it you won’t think it’s real. So when I say Rebbe, youre picturing A Rav. So we’re talking two different things.
Because these Rabbanim or chassidim, say sholom mordechai for example – although I’m blown away by his emunah and bitachon, (I listened to the tu bshvat farbrengen – amazing!) I know it’s within my capabilities to reach that. I also know that it was still a struggle for him and he hasn’t completely drugged his yetzer hara out of action permanently. So you can’t treat him like that because there’s still some ego / personal motives there.
But the Rebbe is completely different. I can no quicker be the Rebbe than become a malach. It’s not within my capability. The Rebbe was chosen by Hashem to be His messenger and could do things that are impossible : like reply to people’s
thoughts , barely eat or sleep, describe in minute detail places he’s never been, promise and garantee brochos….. It’s a whole different story. I guess you have to experience it to believe it.Now if the other stuff is pretty clear I’ll be happy to share some of my personal experiences with the Rebbe.
BTW thanks @rso for the source of the Rebbe picture at the bris. Looks like that invites the Rebbe to attend.
*unless one puts the being of the tzadik above / instead is Hahem, which is why we need to be careful not to have a picture in front of us while davening. Or if someone thinks the tzadik as a person is helping them, instead of thinking Hashem is working through the tzadik. Etc.
First post hashkafa post. Second a practical answer :
Hashkafa:
The concept of achdus Hashem as elucidated by the Alter Rebbe in shaar hayichud vhoemuna goes as follows:
The cannot be any separate existence other than Hashem (ain od milvado). So how do we experience a world where it does look that way?
Because Hashem hides this reality from us but by Him He was never separate from anything and is still one with it. So creation added nothing to His Oneness.
(A modern day example would be seeing the website, and not seeing that is really all letters, the exciting visuals area a facade)
So really everything is one with Hashem. Our job is just to reveal it. We reveal it by 1) doing mitzvos asei 2) using divrei rishus for Hashem.
The ultimate of all our work is when moshiach comes, and the facade that allowed us to have bechira chofshis
will be lifted, and all the G-dly energy we drew down through our mitzvos will be revealed in the world we refined.Kedusha is anything batul to Hashem. Klipa / avoda zara is something that acts like it’s own power or entity – elokim acherim.
We are a microcosm of the world – and the same goals are expected of each of us –
To work on getting rid of lessening our own ego and making what Hashem wants we want. The more we do that, the more Hashem can dwell on us as it says about a Baal guava ain ani vhu yocholin ladur.
A person who completely conquers his yetzer hara and had no more ulterior motives / selfish desires, and only wants to fulfill Ratzon Hashem, is a tzadik and Hashem dwells on him to various degrees depending on how much of a tzadik he is. Some have ruach hakodesh, they aren’t bound by nature and can accomplish the impossible etc. because the more kadosh a person is, the more they can access these levels of kedusha which out them above the world – like tzadik gozer vHKBH mekayem.
A tzadik today is like the beis Hamikdash – Hashem dwells within and by visiting and being mekushar to a tzadik, it helps one grow in their Avodas Hashem.
So basically the root of avoda zara is arrogance, and anything kadosh is batul to Hashem. A tzadik can’t be avoda zara just like the beis Hamikdash isn’t avoda zara because his whole being is batul.
Ok lots here – each line can reference a whole
perek or more which is why I’m being scarce and not explanatory as I can’t write out whole prakim of Tanya. Abs maamarim etc. But you can ask for more if you want.I was walking to school this morning and I got what’s bothering lots of people here. I can clear it up with two posts. Will posts later iyh
Syag there were two questions, one about the picture of the Rebbe bichlal and the second about the bris. I answered in two separate posts.
Here’s the sources from the Rebbe about looking at the picture of a tzadik. You may have a different shita, which I respect. As for me, this is my Rebbe. From a class I teach (to lubavitchers) in the power of Sight. We go through how looking at positive things impacts a person and also the opposite.
ב. כל אברך שראה את הרבי, צריך בכל בוקר – לא משנה אם לפני ברכות השחר או לאחרי ברכות השחר ]נ”א: “צי פאר ‘מודה אני’ צי נאך ‘מודה אני’ “[ – ללכת לפינה, לצייר לעצמו את צורת הרבי, וזה יתן לו חיות לעשות את מה שצריך. )מיחידות שנת תשי”ב(
א. ציור פני הרב הוא ע”ד ובדוגמת ראיית פניו, שיש בזה עילוי לגבי לימוד תורתו, בדוגמת מעלת הראי’ לגבי שמיעה. )משיחת פסח שני תש”י(
ד. “וועסט האלטן ביי זיך א פיקטשער פון רבי’ן, און בשעת ס’פאלן דיר אריין די מחשבות – זולסטו א קוק טאן אויף עם, און ווי ער קוקט אויף דיר”. )מיחידות שנת תשכ”ח(
ה. “זאלסט האלטן ביי זיך א בילד פון דעם רבי’ן דעם נשיא, און יעדן מאל וואס ס’וועט אנקומען שווער זאלסטו אנקוקן דעם בילד און דאס וועט דיר דערמאנען אז דער רבי קוקט שטענדיק אויף דיר, ובמילא וועט מען קענען בייקומען די ענינים בלתי רצויים”. )מיחידות שנת תשכ”ט
ו. בעת האכילה – יהי’ מונח לפניך תמונה של כ”ק מו”ח אדמו”ר. )מיחידות לא’ שהתאונן ביחידות שאוכל ומתענג והוא בעל תאוה כו'(
As far as the bris, it’s true. By my son, some ladies brought a Rebbe picture and said it’s a minhag to put it under the pillow pillow. So we did. I’m sure there’s a source for it. In general, in lubavitch, a picture of any tzadik is treated like sheimos and wouldn’t be disposed of directly in the garbage.
@DY regarding Nassi hador, the term was first applied to the Frierdiker Rebbe by the Rogatchaver Gaon. When bochurim came to summon him, he said “Der Nossi ruft” by means of explanation to his wife why he wasn’t even eating breakfast first before going.As far as how were they able to argue with him? Any tzaddik has this role. Hashem decides the rules not us. The role of Nossi hador doesn’t negate other tzaddikim.
BTW now that your brought it up, I did some further research as requested in the last thread and the term Nassi hador is brought in a non lubavitch Sefer kabbola called kehilas Yaakov.
There it states that Nassi stands for nitzutzo shel Yaakov avinu.
Just like Yaakov avinu had a neshama klalis that included the neshamos of klal Yisrael, in every generation there is a nitzutz of Yaakov which means this individual possesses all neshamos of his generation within his own neshama, and everything passes through him.
BTW just to clarify, I never used the term partner before, although I thought my intent was clear as given by the example. It was an ill attempt at nigle speak as we have many different terms we use. Like we don’t use the term gadol in lubavitch really.
since I saw it in a halachic analysis discussion, I thought you might throw around the term. Regardless I shan’t use it again as I now see how it can be so misinterpreted and in any case, its clearly not nigle speak.
@DY in so happy to inform you that here you misunderstood and we do hold of other tzaddikim. What was said was that there is only one Nassi hador. But there can be many tzaddikim, although we do seem to have an acute shortage since after the holocaust.
OK I think I get where I was unclear? Tzaddikim agent running the world as a separate entity from Hashem cvs.
The gemara is saying they’re considered His partners by doing their Avodas Hashem, not that they have free reign to make separate decisions cvs.
Tzaddikim don’t even have a separate will other than what Hashem wants so that would be impossible.
However Hashem does ask and involve tzaddikim in His decision making process, like the example I gave above about the war with Napoleon. So the word partner I guess was not the right word and wouldn’t have been used this context so I’m sorry I used it. It applies after the fact to whet they’re considered. Ok how’s that?
And I really don’t care what other religions say. We’re not supposed to learn them anyway. If they say something true, then it’s source is in Torah, if it’s false, then it’s their own mishugas that they mixed in. I suppose that’s why you guys have such a hard time talking about moshiach as a real subject cuz you don’t want to sound like other religions. By me, my source is Torah and that’s all.
Goodness go blame the gemara for using such a scary expression that’s where I picked it up from.
OK I looked it up myself cuz it caused such an uproar. Here’s two the second one why not if I’m looking up the first.
1) Moshe, by judging correctly, chazal say that as a result, “kilu naase shotef lHkbh bmaase beraishis” that’s where I got that expression from, k?
That’s shabbos 10, 1.
2) about Moshe rabbeinu it states in medrash tehillim, 90 “mechetzio ulmata Ish, mchetzyo ulmaala haElokim.” Same idea of tzadik being conduit for Hashem as mimutza hamechaber because Hahem reveals Himself through the tzadik.
The problem is that I don’t know all the Nigleh sources offhand. But I do remember the phrase shutfim bmaase beraishis to be said about every Jew who keeps shabbos. In Nigleh. I also know that Hashem wants tzaddikim involved with decisions down here in this world and I can bring plenty of stories on that point. And remember learning the expression partners – shutfim as well. Maybe gaon or aww would know.
Aww your great but a bit too sharp I’d say normally. But here I think there is a place for it. People who have no clue of Chassidus are paskening on the Rebbe and Chassidus, expecting us to bring sources for everything we say, which they then promptly dismiss because “they” think it doesn’t fit with what they think of Chabad or Yiddishkeit, without bothering to bring a counter source. And these chutzpinyaks dare to place themselves on the same footing as the Rebbe to judge if he is a frum Jew?! Such craziness warrants a real sharp response. As for me, I can’t share here in such a crazy environment where people take half a sentence, pasken its shitfus because that’s what feels right, don’t bother to reply to the sources brought or bring their own, or ask further on what isn’t clear – that would be a serious productive discussion, and if all else fails, counter with 5 new questions…
Anyhow there is a site that answers many such questions with respected Mashpiim within Chabad in short videos called stump the Rabbi – I invite you serious people to check it out.
Bubbyo you sound sincere except for the chutzpah of the above attitude so I’ll respond to a point:
Shitfus is when something says serve me IN ADDITION or INSTEAD OF Hashem. Not when Hashem Himself decides to make tzaddikim His partners in running the world – like all the miracle stories of tzaddikim you hear, just one example – how Hashem left the option of Napoleon or Czar winning the war up to which tzadik would blow shofar first – because in these cases its HASHEM’S system, not a rival one.
By your understanding, it must be very hard to understand the posuk that says “Three times a year all your males should see the face of Hashem your G-d in the place He chose…”
Because according to this sort of understanding, anywhere Hashem reveals Himself becomes shitfus and avoda zara so this we should be forbidden from visiting the Beis Hamikdash, because maybe we’ll think the mountain is god.
I know that’s ridiculous. It’s also ridiculous to say the same about a tzadik.
Great sechel. I can add tomorrow iyh stories and a bit more more as I want to check up some points before. If you’d like to check up yourself, the answers to these and many similar questions can be found on the stump the Rabbi site, where the rabbis answer questions that are from ffb Chabad people who ask all these questions at some point.
To summarise the points flow:
1) lubavitchers understand that sicha as the Rebbe intended with his other examples, as a tzadik being a revelation of Hashem in this world, like Moshe was able to say I referring to Hashem etc.
Other sources include nefesh Hachaim which says the same thing. Any other attempt to “read” into it is taking it out of context (like missionaries do), and done to drive an agenda which isn’t there.
2) we know it’s done but why is it OK to ask Rebbeim/tzaddikim for brachos as opposed to only Hashem?
Answer because the tzadik is a mimutza hamechaber so Hashem can answer you through the tzadik. And you can put your “best foot forward” by having your “head” ask for you.
“that wasn’t my claim. you have made several comments about how your concepts are too deep for most of us and have commented several times that it’s too hard to understand. Mostly because someone disagreed and you assumed it was a lack of comprehension.”
They are deep and delicate concepts, and my concern is that that in conveying them correctly. And yes from the some of the results i got, it seems I didn’t fully convey the concept correctly so I tried to add in more. Its my achrayus to try to convey properly as much as yours to try to understand what I say. I don’t see that as offensive.
” that we too have rebbeim and Torah giants and a mesorah and will also defend our Rebbeim and Torah so asking us to set aside what we know is right and wrong so that you can feel respected is not acceptable”
I did not see one Rebbe or Torah giant quoted. In any case I think I made it clear that it totally fine to discuss, but to say things like your Rebbe’s sicha is…. Cvs, is completely unacceptable. No one here should think they’re greater than the tens of gedolim who met and consulted with the Rebbe. I wouldn’t mind if he said something like, “I don’t understand how this quote of the Rebbe doesn’t contradict this halacha…” But for him to pasken on the Rebbe is not acceptable which is why I can’t continue answering his questions
“, it was claiming the Rebbe is the brain”
Ya that’s in Tanya perek beis, and the Zohar brings the part of all of us being the same neshama. Wasn’t sure which one you wanted the source for so I gave both. Tanya says “Roshei bnei Yisrael shebidoram” exact quote.
“As I said, you are asking for respect but not willing to acknowledge the disrespect to our own gedolim and talmidei chochomim. Please understand that.”
Don’t see where I disrespected any gadol please enlighten me.
“that is not special for lubavitch. that is how we all do things and how we all see the messages delivered by our gedolim and rabbeim. The problem is the Rebbe is not alive and could not have told you that. He is not here to be a personal messanger and give you advice. and THAT is what is in question.”
Actually one of the questions is how we can ask the Rebbe for anything, instead of only Hashem – see the title of this thread.
Joseph added that part, so I was starting to answer with first explaining about the concept of what a Rebbe is. I don’t know what is normal or not normal for you because things that I take for granted, some people here are railing about. If everything I said is so obvious why are people upset and what’s the question anyway? Every time I answer one, the question becomes something else.
I can continue answering if everything I said until now is clear, and people phrase things respectfully. Also, now I think I’m not understanding you properly and we’re miscommunicating. So I don’t know if I should continue if I’m confusing, or misunderstanding you and you misunderstanding me. I think the main concept I gave over, lmk if that’s all clear. If it is and we’re on the same page, I can continue.
“Please go back to your teachers and ask them to start with the very basics before jumping to Toras haNistar. That trajectory has messed up many people in much greater generations than ours.”
You’re 100% right in theory although it seems you don’t understand who or what we’re discussing here- I guess it makes sense you didn’t learn Chabad history in high school 🙂
Basically you’re right – its very dangerous to learn nistar on you’re own, without a proper teacher or explanation. Which is why I don’t get hope toi thinks he’s learning more pnimius HaTorah than me – with no Chassidus.
But that’s exactly what the Alter Rebbe was tasked with and why the Baal Shem Tov was so excited when he heard the Alter Rebbe’s neshama was coming down to this world – a neshama chadasha, not a gilgul. Alter Rebbe was given this special neshama and tasked with taking pnimius HaTorah and bringing it into intellect – chochma bina and Daas – Chabad, in a way that it is now understandable and accessible to every Jew.
And he did that with writing the Tanya, Torah Or and Likutei Torah revealing tremendous concepts that were never bought into this world before.
All the other Rebbeim’s Torah are based off of the Alter Rebbe’s maamarim or subsequent Rebbeim (except maybe some of the Rebbe’s) They all expounded on it, and brought it down more but the core ideas were revealed by the Alter Rebbe.
So yes it is very dangerous to open a Zohar on your own and chart your Avodas Hahem according to what you “understand” without a proper teacher.
But Chassidus takes the concepts and makes them accessible by explaining them using mashalim from our experience.
Now before someone says this is disrespectful to everyone else, everyone has what they offer. I think Belz did Kiruv in Europe during the haskala movement – before Chabad. But what you said here is exactly what Chabad is all about.
@syag I never said or implied I’m so smart and you’re all not.
What I did say is that compared to the Rebbe, we both have no understanding. As chassidim say, were the toenails, the Rebbe is the head.Or as reb Hillel Paritcher, famous chossid of the Alter Rebbe said, “compared to the Rebbe I understand like a goat. And I don’t mean that the difference between my understanding and the Rebbe’s understanding (of Hashem etc ed) is the same same difference as the understanding between a goat and me, but rather, me and the goat understand the same of what a Rebbe is.”
And like you said we are all frum yidden, so it shouldn’t be so difficult to expect respect for Torah as that should be a frum value. I wouldn’t have this discussion with someone not frum. I expect better from frum yidden. As you should expect respect from me for your gedolim.
About the brain reference, that’s Tanya perek beis. Concept of all yidden being one neshama is brought down in Zohar. And expounded upon in many places in Chassidus. Also Tanya perek beis.
You’re welcome to ask. All im saying is that there is a way to ask – in a respectful manner.
Have you heard of Yaakov having a neshama klalis? Or is that something only people who learn Chassidus have heard of.
Lastly it seems there is some confusion. You can’t daven to the Rebbe. But you can ask brochos from the Rebbe for anything, as many chassidim do, not just Chabad. And today, even litvishe people by their gedolim / Roshei Yeshivos.
How is this allowed? Explanation posted above. I get there may be many new concepts there for people who haven’t learned Chassidus, so feel free to ask on anything else or for any source.
“Moshe Rabbeinu did not consider it “fine” when the Yidden in the midbar asked him for things!
Seeשמות ט”ז”The problem there was that they were complaining, not
asking. And so Moshe was upset with their lack of emuna.Interestingly enough, you’re quote proves my point exactly. Moshe is saying there that when they complain against him, is not against him as a person, because what is he? He had no ego / selfish interests of his own. Rather, when they rebel against Moshe, they are really rebelling against Hashem. Because Moshe is just the messenger…
“I have more derech eretz for your Rebbe ztz”l, than to think that he would compare himself to the RBS”O or even to Moshe Rabbeinu, c”v. ”
You are missing the point. Every yid has the potential to live a life that shows that he is one with Hashem, and not a separate being with separate interests.
A tzadik (who has permanently conquered his yetzer hara) lives this reality all the time , which is our deepest potential revealed.
So he’s not comparing himself to Hashem as that would be ego / avoda zara. Rather he has reached the level where he has no more personal selfish interests other than what Hashem wants. And that is the deepest real us. We all live that reality sometimes but a tzadik lives it all the time. Basically his “self” is gone… Do you get it?
It might be hard to understand, but when you observe a tzadik in action you experience the concept so it’s crystal clear.
Just for example, if the Rebbe asks me to teach Jewish children in Timbuktu, I’d be stupid not to, because it’s not serving his personal interests – he doesn’t even have any. Rather, he is Hashem’s messenger telling me what my lifes mission is. A personal message from Hashem – relayed to me via his Roeh Neeman. And if that’s what I’m meant to do, that means this is what I was created for and given my set of talents for. And if course, fulfilling my mission will help me live life to the fullest.
Guess I should mention by the way that a Rebbe only gets his unique spiritual capabilities because of the regular Jew like you and I. As we saw by the first Rebbe, Moshe rabbeinu, when bnei Yisrael sinned, he was expelled from heaven because he was only asked there for their sake.
And during the 40 wandering years, Hashem didn’t talk to him for years and years although he never sinned with the Miraglim because he only has his position because of us.