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His Royal Highness –
To say that a city is defined by the size of the Digali Hamidbar should have been mentioned by the Rishonim. If the Rishonim could ask where does Rashi learn that shishim ribo is a criterion of a reshus harabbim, how much more so can we ask on Rav Moshe where does he learn that this is the classification of a city.
I gave a citation. More people go out of Brooklyn to work than come into Brooklyn.
I give you the job of finding out. I have tried; he is really not interested in talking about the inyan. I believe that he maintains that since his father objected no one can come and say otherwise.
As I mentioned he should have adjusted for the Boro Park teshuvah in 1981. See the end of O.C. 4:88.
shmooze1 –
“How is it possible to check eruv Shabos a minimum of three eruvs?Are they checking the eruvs Thursday night?”
They are checked constantly.
tumller –
“If I see a frum looking person smoking on Shabbos it will bother me.If I see a frum looking person carrying outside of the eruv it also bothers me. Why would there be a need to make local eruvin on certain blocks? If their block is in the Boro Park eruv shouldn’t their block be also included?”
His Royal Highness –
Most apply the criterion to the street.
Absolutely not. As I mentioned Rav Moshe required a daily shishim ribo. Rav Moshe did not accept the fact that in the summertime the beaches bring in a larger population. (In any case, the beaches are contained by their own mechitzos.)
[Even more so, at the same time there are more people who commute out of Brooklyn to work 424,000 (NYC Department of City Planning, Table CTPP P-6, P-7, 2003).] Now only factor the 12×12 mil subset of Brooklyn and the tally would be even less.
They were talking about a 12×12 mil subset when they made the tally in Chicago.
I wonder if there is anything else that bothers you as much as eruvin. You may not be part of the organized anti-eruv group but you are a tumeler. I reiterate there are local eruvin on certain blocks. There most definitely are back-up eruvin. As a matter of fact there is more than one back-up.
Yontel –
They will never understand.
Can you tell us where one or two of the back-up eruvs are?
tumill, of course. Please explain of what interest is it to you? Please stay out of things you know nothing about.
popa_bar_abba –
“Now I understand. This is a “our gedolim” and “your gedolim” issue. You really don’t respect “our gedolim”, and think we don’t respect “your gedolim”.”
No. I respect your Gedolim, but you don’t respect our Gedolim. You never learnt through “your Gedolim’s” teshuvos I did.
“Also, since you read the teshuva, you ought to know that the numbers he uses are 4-5 times of shishim ribo. that equals 2.4m-3m. The population of Brooklyn has always exceeded that.”
His Royal Highness –
“What do you mean?”
“How do you know that you still fall short of 3 million (using the aforementioned criteria) in a 12×12 mil area subset?”
tumill –
“WHERE ARE SOME OF THE BACK-UP ERUVIN? I COULDN’T FIND ONE!”
I am sure if I showed you a tzuras hapesach you would not know bein yemino lsmolo. Please, you are not interested that there be an eruv altogether. This is typical of the anti-eruv group to seek all means to negate eruvin. In any case, the back-up eruvin were established for two reasons: 1) In case the eruv is ripped on Shabbos. 2) That people like you should not be able to get their hands on it. Hence this eruv is not publicized. Stay out of things you know nothing about.
apushatayi –
“Bottom line. Has anyone changed their opinion regarding their use of the BP Eruv because of this thread? Why is everyone going at it with such gusto? Halevay everyone would work on their ahavas yisroel with such gusto.”
You arguments or the lack thereof, demonstrates that you have a poor sense of the underlying issues. All your ancillary taanos are childish. Again, did you stop to think for a moment before you posted? Many eruvin rely on Bais Hakevaros, even those of non-Jews (see for starters the Tikvas Zecharia). Those who erect eruvin always seek the best routes that entail the least tzuras hapesachim. But I guess when we are referring to the Boro Park eruv its no holds barred.
Clark Kent –
“The 2.4 million is in the main Igros Moshe published by Rav Moshe during his lifetime. The 3.0 million is only in the controversial 8th cheilek of the Igros, not chosen for publication by Rav Moshe, but rather done posthumously.”
shmooze1 –
“You do not sound that you live in NYC and specifically in Brooklyn to make such a statement!”
Please elaborate.
His Royal Highness –
Fine but Brooklyn in area is greater than twelve mil by twelve mil. Rav Moshe follows the Shulchan Aruch and requires a daily shishim ribo (see 4:88 regarding the beaches). Consequentially, we still fall short of 3 million. (I would also point out, there are other reason to allow our eruvin according to Rav Moshe such as the mechitzos encompassing Brooklyn.)
popa_bar_abb –
“So, tell us how this happened according to you. Rav Moshe issued his first psak based on being tricked. Then, everybody who wanted the eruv responded, bringing 11 halachic arguments which he responded to in the second teshuva.”
“Did anyone suggest he was wrong on the facts? Maybe they didn’t feel like looking into it? Maybe he just stubbornly didn’t care?
Is that what you think?”
“Besides, why don’t you link us the place where he says there are 3 million people living in Brooklyn. Why do you keep asserting it instead of citing it?”
I cited the teshuvah many times (see the end of 4:88).
“By reading it only to argue with him, you do not give kavod.
By asserting that he issued a landmark psak without due regard for the facts, you are mevazeh him.”
truth be told –
“No they do not belong to Rebbes anymore. True. And that was part of this sociological war. Then they can all become lamdonim like you and dispute all the gedolim who built the Torah community in NY.”
“No wonder 18th Ave park, as well as other “nice” locations, appear the way they do on Shabbos. Instead of building yeshivos, we build eiruvin, machlookes and lamdonim like david 1999 who can belittle the people who are responsible for our Yiddishkeit.”
Right. Did you ever go to KGH or Detroit on Shabbos and argue this point. Oh, but Rav Moshe allowed the eruv there. I guess only were you deem it appropriate to build eruvin do you give them a pass. Your argument is specious.
“Reb Moshe, he made “factual” “mistakes”. On and on”
You have nothing to add. Rav Moshe was mislead.
shmooze1 –
“The original subject is not if one may use the Boro Park erev or not.The problem is that for many years ,there are no signs telling people where the boundaries of the eruv are.There are people who carry food into shuls outside of the eruv .One can not rely on the back-up eruv,because it’s just a buba meisa and it does not exist!.Most Rabonim believe that if one does not hold from the eruv, that person should not eat any of the food that is carried in on Shabbos. I would venture to say that NO ONE should eat of the food that is brought into the shuls from outside of the eruv on Shabbos.”
popa_bar_abba –
“I am unfamiliar with the facts. However, I have enough confidence in Rav Moshe that he did not “shoot from the hip”, without looking into the facts.”
“That sounds cute, but makes no sense.”
His Royal Highness –
Your right we only use the twelve mil by twelve mil subset. Rav Moshe was led to believe that there were nearly three million people that reside in Brooklyn and over a million come into the borough daily to work. He therefore understood that in an area of twelve mil by twelve mil there were more than three million people.
Yes. As above.
popa_bar_abba –
“I don’t know what question you are waiting for an answer on.”
“I’m not sure what my scholarship has to do with your lack of respect.”
I took the time to understand Rav Moshe. You just shoot from the hip. People who claim things in the name of Rav Moshe and did not study his teshuvos are showing disrespect. Because I prove that Rav Moshe would allow the current eruvin, if he would know the facts on the ground, does not make me disrespectful. Unless, of course, the halachah is one always has to oppose eruvin.
Ben Levi –
The specific reason they did not sign that Kol Koreh is in order to prevent people from BP interfering in Flatbush.
Well they did. Lodz had shishim ribo by 1931. When they established the Odessa eruv the assumed that it contained shishim ribo.
Bube mases. The other side of the Vistule River was called Parga not Warsaw. Warsaw had shishim ribo by the year 1900. Prior to the war there were over a million people on the Warsaw side of the river. I know Warsaw is a major problem for those who oppose the eruv.
Sorry I believe the Naroler rav more than them. In any case, it makes no sense that a father would express anger about his son to others.
His Royal Highness –
“What makes Boro Park and Flatbush two different kehillos, anymore than 13th Avenue and 18th Avenue would be two different kehillos? Why can’t a “Flatbush” Rov have a say in a “Boro Park matter” any less than a 13th Avenue Rov can have in a “18th Avenue matter”?”
“It’s pretty close to 3 million. What’s the difference if it is 2.8 million or 2.6 million? And furthermore, why are you limiting it to “Brooklyn’s” population? Brooklyn is physically connected to, and part of the same municipal city, as Queens. Which itself has over 2 million. Why are you separating out Brooklyn? If you’re doing that, why not already separate “Boro Park” into its own city for the purpose of counting population for eruv purposes?”
popa_bar_abb –
“Of course we believe you. That is why it took 15 years after his death for anyone to figure it out.”
“Maybe you are missing a couple of steps. (and a lot of respect?)”
Respect? You don’t even know his teshuvos.
Ben Lev –
I would point out that the problem that was raised at the start of the thread is one of the very issues that were raised by those oppossed to the initial construction of the eruv.
Mainly that it is very hard for people to remain aware of the exact boundries of th eiruv which can ( and is alleged here to have done) cause actual Chillul Shabbos.
While at the time these Rabbonim were laughed at for being so “simpleminded” it seems that there is reason to beleive that it is they who were correct.
As it is quite well known that the Gedolim of previous Generations were opposed to the building of an Eiruv (For whatever reason) and it would seem that it is only present day Rabbonim who have permitted it one could perhaps see from here the wisdom of Chazal “If the elders say to destroy and the youn ones say to build, then destroy for the destruction of the elders is building and the building of the young ones is destruction”
Woe to to the Dor that has forgotten the Gedolim who built the Torah World we live in.”
fdm –
To counter a specific psak on a shayla that was issued by a Gadol Hador, which was accepted and maintained, is a total different ballgame!!”
tumill –
I have told the people who are involved in the every day matter of the Boro Park eruv that people are carrying outside of the eruv.They replied that this is not our problem :they have to check out the map and it is their responsibility and not ours.
“I believe that the Rabonim that first signed that you can make an eruv in Boro Park, only signed for the concept of permitting an eruv in Boro Park , not the exact whereabouts of the eruv.”
So what, they all trust Rav Katz shlita.
“The people who then began putting up the eruv ran into many problems, such as anti eruv people ripping down the eruv.”
This does not happen amnymore.
“They also found out that the Chinese feel it is bad luck for them to have a string connecting two houses . Therefore, the people who were making the eruv had to make a pole outside of the school yard on 49 st between 8Th and 9Th ave and attach the eruv from the pole to a frum house. It was also necessary to make an eruv just covering half of 9th ave because mainly Chinese people live between 8th & 9th Aves.”
“As far as a backup eruv, there aren’t any that are constructed from lechis and korahs(strings)”
And how do you know this sir? You are a good story teller, but its fiction.
“B’deeved, maybe they are using something else, like the water? who knows!”
Right who knows. You most definitly don’t.
His Royal Highness –
“You are making wild assertions, some of which are:
Rav Moshe was easily manipulated on a whole host of basic facts.
Rav Ahron (Satmar Rebbe) said the eruv is no good simply to act like a stooge to save face.”
“All the Roshei Yeshiva are simple minded folks who just called a simple minded posek who told them the eruv was no good.”
“Askanim” had some unknown, unstated interest in preventing an eruv in Brooklyn, and they went out and successfully fooled Gedolei Yisroel and poskim past and present. What was these mysterious “askamim’s” gain?”
popa_bar_abba –
“This is fascinating. Now you think Rav Moshe was tricked by “askanim” and didn’t find out the basic facts before making a psak which he knew would severely inconvenience the largest frum population in the world.
And that nobody bothered to correct him, or he just blindly ignored them.
Yes, if that is who you think Rav Moshe was, then you should not listen to him.
However, that is not my Rav Moshe. And you should not think that.”
“But, out of curiosity, tell us about these “askanim”. Just what was motivating them to want there to be no eruv in Brooklyn?
Did they own real estate in queens?”
“You are going really far out here in your need to carry your tallis to shul. Why don’t you just bring it on friday and you can go back to respecting gedolim.”
Right I should also push the stroller before Shabbos!! I follow the Perishah (O.C. 395:1) and use an eruv because it increases my oneg Shabbos. I also follow the Bnai Yissachar and carry in all eruvin. I have more respect for gedolim, than most of the debaters on this board, as I actually learnt through their teshuvos.
Ben Levi –
“All the above Rabbonim hold the Boro Park eiruv is assur however they did not wish to sign publicly against it in order to be able to ensure that the Boro Park Rabbonim who were Pro the Eiruv would not be able to intrude on their “turf” in Flatbush. (This was stated publicly by Rav Cohen shlita in front of his entire shul).”
“Rav Moshe wrote clearly that Brooklyn is a Reshus Harabim D’Oraisoh to state otherwise is to simply overlook the fact that it is written in Igros Moshe.”
“To state that Rav Moshe “ignored” the Gedolei Achronim is basically admitting that one is a complete Am Ha’aretz.
Yes there were Eiruvin in Europe.”
“Europe was a lot smaller the Brooklyn is today and the need for an eiruv was overwhelming. Meaning it was needed for basic things like going to the bathroom and getting one’s food from the communal oven.”
There were eruvin in cities that contained shishim ribo prior to WWII. Stop rewriting history. There were eruvin in Warsaw, Lodz and Oddesa all containing populations around or greater than shishim ribo. They were going to establish an eruv in Paris prior to WWII, as well. The population there was approximitly 3 million.
Show me one posek besides for Rav Moshe who stated that the reason for eruvin was because of food. The Chasam Sofer (99) states that the reason for eruivn is to save people who will mistakenly carry. The Perishah (O.C. 395:1) is to increase our oneg Shabbos.
“Do you follow the Mishna Berurah?
Well the Mishna Berurah himself writes that the eiruvin in Europe were established based on many Kulos and a “Ba’al Nefesh should be Machmir. He makes quite clear that he was not very happy with the stae of Eiruvin in Europe.
Did the Mishna Berura also ignore the Achronim?”
“There are no mainstream competent Flatbush Poskim that I am aware of that hold of the eiruv in Flatbush. It was actually built by a Rov from Monsey who is the son of one of the Gedolei HaDor and when his Father was made aware that he went against the express wishes of all the Rabbonim of the area he was furious. I cannot report the exact exchange that occured since there are conflicting reports suffice to say that his father lent his signature as well against the eiruv. ( I am not stating the identity on the off chance said Rav has done Teshuva)”
Teshuvah! Maybe you mean those who tried a terroristic tactic, to have a catering hall remove his hechsher because of the great aveira that he gave a hechsher on an eruv, did teshuvah?
shlishi –
“How can that be if both Rebbes oppose the eruv?”
Because Rav Aharon was not originally opposed to an eruv. Once the Zalonim made it an issue of frumkite then the Aharonim followed. This is demonstrated by the fact that many Aharonim carry in Boro Park, but not openly in Williamsburg.
What record? Please cite one of his writings.
They had an agenda, and did not stop at anything.
No. I mean that they have a rav but not a particular rebbe. Yes do the math. There are approximately 20,000 families in BP. How many belong to the major Chassidisim?
Clark Kent –
“What I find interesting is that while in Boro Park you will find a sizable contigent of people, approximately 25% of the neighborhood, holding of the eruv and you’ll see people pushing strollers on Shabbos, in Flatbush on the other hand the eruv is not held of by the vast vast majority and rarely will you see a stroller being pushed on Shabbos. And the very few in Flatbush who do hold of it are generally only the more modern crowd that probably also held of the old eruv that I think was the one Reb Moshe paskened against.
I never quite understood why this discrepancy between Flatbush and Boro Park. Any ideas anyone?”
tumill –
“Get to the point! is there a Boro Park backup- evev or not, or is it just one big bubba meisa?”
Yes there is, but it’s only used in case the main one becomes possel. I reiterate, there are local eruvin (on the blocks that were mentioned in this post), but you would need to ask the local people for more information.
His Royal Highness –
“Why is this “for another time”? I would like to know. What is difficult in explaining why it took until after 2000 to properly build it. Were the doros that brought up mishpochos for the previous 40+ years in B.P. and Flatbush not entitled to benefit from an eiruv. If it were always possible, why was it not previously done?”
Because I would need to name names, and it would be censored. Yes everyone is entitled to an eruv if their rav allows for one. Alas that is not to be in NY, since there are people who formed a group called hilchos issurei eruvin. For starters see to whom this teshuvah, Igros Moshe, O.C. 5:28 is written to.
“Was Rav Moshe enabling these “askanim” with his psak or did he fall for their ruse?”
truth be told –
Thats why Rav Roth didn’t want it.
Thats why Rav Ahron, the Satmer Rebbe from KJ spoke out against it. Thats why the other Satmer Rebbe opposes it. On and on”
truth be told –
“What a great argument. Wonderful.”
Since it seems to bother you so much, that there are eruvin in Brooklyn, lets here what are your arguments against it. There is no doubt in my mind that you have nothing to add, and that your opinion does not amount to much halachic knowledge.
truth be told –
I would love you to display your knowledge of the subject. Please, it would be an honor to get into lengthy debates with you. That is if you have anything to add to this conversation.
truth be told –
“First you claim he gets the most questions in BP. Doesn’t work.
So you claim he even gets questions from Lakewood, and that he’s the most asked posek in America. Don’t work either.
His Royal Highness –
“And why did it take until the 2000’s to establish kosher eiruven in B.P. and Flatbush? What prevented them from being properly built 40 years earlier? Were the gedolim of the previous generation an impediment to it?”
His Royal Highness –
“And the current one did not entail huge machlokas?”
The current Boro Park eruv was backed by many and important poskim. The previous eruv was not.
His Royal Highness:
“For decades before the current B.P. and Flatbush eiruven were established (in the early 2000’s), there was a Flatbush Eiruv maintained by the Young Israel crowd. Why was that universally rejected by the heimishe (Litvish/Chasidish) community? Why was that eiruv worse than the current eiruv?”
Because of the huge machlokas that ensued. The current eruv is based on the fact that Brooklyn is encompassed by mechitzos. The current eruvin are built with many more chumros. They are also omed merubeh eruvin.
tumill –
“It seems to me the original question was is there a Boro Park backup eruv or not,and if not, can people carry outside of the eruv which they are now doing.”
His Royal Highness –
“Where do you believe the Flatbush Eiruv falls into in this discussion? Would you put it into the same status as the B.P. Eiruv?”
Flatbush is also encompassed by mechitzos. Why should it be different?
popa_bar_abba –
“And an even better response.”
Why so stingy with words? I would like you to display your mastery of the subject.
truth be told –
“No, no. The first is just that, chilul Shabbos. The second is at most not recomended”
There are more reasons to allow our eruvin than there are for much of the meat that you eat today.
popa_bar_abba –
“What a great tone of debate.”
If you don’t live in Brooklyn, and don’t know who are the most important poskim in our neighborhood, stay out of the debate.
truth be told –
“Please provide the “kol korei”. He only wrote his own letter, refusing to sign with the others. Its hearsay to say otherwise.”