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November 17, 2011 3:09 am at 3:09 am in reply to: A Shabbos Desecrator Saying Vayechulu With the Congregation #835805
Look at the Chazon Ish on that Mishnah Berurah and you will see that no one agrees that there is an issue of eidus here only edah. Therefore, you can say it:)
I guess the censoring is starting. Its comical when people have nothing to answer they start complaining.
“david1999: that is 100% true. Rav Belsky shlita doesn’t go to BP on shabbos for this reason.”
I never said any such thing. What I did say was that the current eruvin are much better.
I would like to hear his arguments. There is a lot more to this story than meets the eye.
I will add that the reason I made this mistake was because on 51st street the BP eruv only includes half a block. However, if there would be a need for those on that block one would be able to carry until 8th avenue (just like 52-53 Street).
Just as people are making up stories that people are carrying in Sunset Park because of the BP eruv so too you are making up stories about people carrying out of the eruv.
Once again, there is more than one back-up eruv.
You started this argument because you wanted to malign the BP eruv. That you continuously harp on this matter even after I illuminated the fact that this not unique to the BP eruv proves my point. Just like in pre-WWII Europe and in Eretz Yisroel today it was/is not the responsibility of those who established the eruv so too in BP. No one ever argued that this is a reason not to establish an eruv. Moreover, you are definitely blowing the matter out of proportion. All these arguments are specious.
Please elaborate on these facts.
gedalia goomber –
I guess you will always consider it rude when you disagree.
Clark Kent –
You missed the point. I am referring to those who come into work. Those residing and also working in Brooklyn were already tallied. I gave the source for my numbers, look it up.
I reiterate, the mechitzos encompassing Brooklyn would not suffice for a heter tiltul. Please learn the inyan prior to commenting. I wonder why you are obsessed with the issue of back-up eruvin.
If he was civilized he would seek the emes.
The eruv is kosher, so there is no need for a new one.
With a tzuras hapesach. We make use of seawalls, and fences in front of many of the buildings at the waterfront. These mechitzos are more than 99 percent closed. No one uses the mechitzos to carry in Brooklyn. You are totally confused and in any case are not interested in the emes.
I am sure that there were years that there was no kosher butcher in Boro Park and Flatbush, maybe we should never have allowed one to open in these communities. So what, there were years in Warsaw and Odessa that there was no eruv and the rabbanim always sought means to establish an eruv.
For Boro Park there is no need to included Brighton Beach in the mechitzos. For Flatbush, under the Boardwalk there are gates that can be used as the mechitzos (which also exclude the people on the beach in the tally).
According to Rav Moshe Brooklyn does not need to be enclosed by mechitzos that are within an area of 12×12 mil. Notwithstanding a reshus harabbim, mechitzos change the status of the area contained therein. Rav Moshe allows for mechitzos to be within 32 mil. The Brooklyn mechitzos are much less.
“Are you saying that the word mechitzah is the same meaning as the eruv?”
Actually this is one of the reasons offered to establish eruvin. That is to save people from the transgression of carrying without an eruv.
While most poskim would agree with this statement, Rav Moshe upholds that we do count the occupants of cars in the tally.
“For some of the people who live outside of the main Boro Park eruv, the back-up eruv is their main eruv..
Therefor, I want to know if the eruv they are using have lechis and kores(strings)and not just some body of water surrounding Brooklyn..
Can we eat of ther food that is brought in on Shabbos l’chatlia.?”
His Royal Highness –
Finally a good question. Let me try to explain.
Since Manhattan like Yerushalayim has many visitors from all over the world, Rav Moshe maintained an eruv should not be established in Manhattan as well. However, Rav Moshe agreed (HaPardes, 33rd year, vol. 9; Kuntres Tikkun Eruvin Manhattan p. 161, and Divrei Menachem, O.C. vol. 2, siman 4) that if the rabbanim in Manhattan would erect an eruv, the precedent of Yerushalayim would not pose an obstacle. How much more so would Rav Moshe have allowed an eruv that had been erected in Brooklyn, as he was not sure if Brooklyn was even comparable to Yerushalayim at all (Igros Moshe, O.C. 1:139:6, 5:28:15).
[On the contrary, the Shulchan Aruch HaRav (364:4); Bais Ephraim (O.C. 26); Bais Meir (O.C. 364:2); Mishnah Berurah (364:5), and the Achiezer (4:8) maintain that only when the area meets all the classifications of a reshus harabbim is there a requirement of delasos.]
According to Rav Moshe, in a Brooklyn neighborhood, a tzuras hapesach would suffice for the following reason:
Since the tzuras hapesachim we erected in our neighborhoods are established in an area encompassed by mechitzos, the area is classified as a reshus hayachid, and the tzuras hapesachim are sufficient and delasos are not required (ibid., 1:139 see the end of anaf 3 where Rav Moshe states clearly that if the tzuras hapesach is erected in a reshus hayachid, it is sufficient.
3) Regarding Manhattan, Rav Moshe stated that, based on additional shitos yechidaos (shitas haRashbah and Rabeinu Ephraim), even with mechitzos and delasos at the pirtzos, Manhattan would not be classified as a reshus hayachid (ibid., 1:39:5-6).
Even these shitos yachidaos would not affect an eruv in a Brooklyn neighborhood for the following reasons:
No. Why not try to seek real answers and not just shoot from the hip.
Clark Kent –
“It’s unfortunate, but on certain issues, most Rabbonim will not paskin out of the box, l’kula, even privately, for fear of public perception and rejection.”
“Does Reb Moshe’s psak prohibit having a private eruv in one’s own driveway and backyard in Flatbush or Boro Park (like many people do for Succos or year-round)? What halachic reason, if any, would such an eruv be different than a neighborhood eruv? And where would a block-wide eruv fit in according to Reb Moshe?”
Driveway and backyard eruvin are part of a reshus hayachid. No one takes issue with them. However, block eruvin would not be allowed according to those who argue that Rav Moshe would not allow an eruvin in Brooklyn.