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popa_bar_abba –
Rav Roth is one of the most well known and respected poskim in America. The fact is he has more sheilos than all the poskim in Flatbush combined and those from Boro Park as well. There is no posek in America who has anywhere near the amount of sheilos as he does.
popa_bar_abba –
I don’t think this is a “ask your rav” issue.
I really think that nobody should be using this eruv.
If this was a machlokes among equals, or even among almost equals, it would be one thing.
If Rav Moshe’s psak was unsure, and just being machmir, that would be one thing.
truth be told –
“Why both Satmer Rebbes oppose it is not my point. My point is how so many people, who are not his chasidim or mispallim, may rely on his psak. The Satmerers follow their Rebbe. This is kulah shopping in so great an area as chillul Shabbos. Same with reb Fischel. Very sad”
Feif Un –
“Anumber of years ago, while I was in yeshiva, there was a letter printed against the eruv, stating that using it is chilul Shabbos d’Oraysa. It was signed by R’ Pam zt”l, R’ Dovid Cohen, R’ Aharon Schechter, R’ Shmuel Berenbaum, and others.”
The only posek on this list, Rav Dovid Cohen is not opposed to an eruv.
truth be told –
“Was R. Roth opposed to making an eiev in BP? Yes, no one can deny this. Did he refuse to sign on the same page as the others? Yes, he wrote his own letter. Either way, in regards to all other issues, only Satmerers llisten to him. Both Satmer Rebbes strongly oppose the eirev. So to who exactly is his psak applicible for? His chasidim and talmidim. Not a large amount.
How many people follow R Hershkowitzs psakim?
It’s pick a your heter deal”
This is hearsay. Rav Roth is a major supporter of the current Brooklyn eruvin. He wrote his own letter as did almost all the rabbanim. He did join the kol korei together with all the rabbanim.
Only Satmerer listen to him? He has more shilos daily than all rabbanim in Boro Park combined. He has many shilos from Flatbush residents.
How many people follow Rav Heskowitz? I know rabbanim in Flatbush who ask him shilos. Many rabbanim in Boro Park and Williamsburg ask him shilos. He simply is in a different league to those who know him.
popa_bar_abba –
“I was waiting for you to come by.
I have never even heard of either of those rabbonim, but I am sure they are very wise and know lots of torah.
They are not “the foremost rabbonim today” in America.”
Clark Kent –
“The majority of Rabbonim in Brooklyn who studied the issue reached the conclusion that the Boro Park and Flatbush eriuv’s are treif.”
Feif Un –
“Most Rabbonim in Brooklyn are firm that they won’t argue on R’ Moshe Feinstein”
And you would be a gonev hekedish.
“In Orchos Rabbeinu (vol. 1, p. 170) it is stated that the Chazon Ish did not even allow a child to utilize the eruv and carry in Bnei Brak on Shabbos.”
The only issue some states have is regarding what is considered public use. However, the power of eminent domain is universal across the states.
AZ-
Thanks for all your research. See also http://eruvonline.blogspot.com/2006/03/part-2-permissibility-of-brooklyn-eruv.html
popa_bar_abba –
There is no reason not to use a mechitzah eruv.
popa_bar_abba –
B. As long as the newly found Rishonim do no overturn established halachah we do rely on them. Consequentially, since these Rishonim are only buttressing the established halachah they can be relied on.
C. http://eruvonline.blogspot.com/2009/06/reprinting-of-berlin-edition-of-behag.html
charliehall: “Manhattan had > 600,000 people before 1860; Brooklyn (still an independent city) around 1880; Chicago by 1890.”
I know that there are other cities as well. I believe that Bombay had more than shishim ribo and I remember that some say Rome had in the time of the Mishnah at least shishim ribo, but I have to look it up.
charliehall –
Rav Moshe did not object to an eruv in Manhattan because of its population, since it was encompassed by mechitzos. There were ancillary reason such as shitos haRashba and his chiddush regarding delasos on the bridges.
Until now the argument was do we rely on the criterion of shishim ribo at all. Since you agree that shishim ribo is dependent on a street and not a city there is no reshus harabbim today. No street would meet this requirement. Moreover there are additional reasons to allow an eruv such as mechitzos, which is not a kula at all.
rabbiofberlin:
Actually the machlokas between the Bais Ephraim and the Mishkenos Yaakov (which was about two hundred years ago) was regarding this fact, most city streets were over 16 amos wide so they had to rely on shishim ribo. There were cities prior to the 20th century that contained shishim ribo such as London and Paris (if you want a list I can look it up).
charliehall:
Actually Rav Ovadia shlita in his Yabia Omer (9:33) mentions seven who oppose the criterion of shishim ribo and over thirty who accept the criterion.
Pashuteh Yid:”The 600k according to Rav Moshe’s chiddush is the number of people living in the city. Most people understand it as the number of people traveling through the street in question.
I think the language seems to be difficult according to Reb Moshe. Shishim Ribu bokekin bo seems to imply movement.
One other question I have in general is why the requirement for lechis on utility poles. Why does the pole itself not serve as the lechi? The nailing of lechis to the poles is what causes all the eruv fights among the non-religious, etc. Any mevinim here who can explain? I know the wire must be directly over the lechi, but doesn’t that usually happen with the pole itself?”
The language of the Shulchan Aruch is difficult according to Rav Moshe because there is no mention of a population of 3,000,000, and twelve mil by twelve mil.
Because of tzuras hapesach min hatzad.
gavra_at_work:
The type of barrier is irrelevant to this discussion.
When you say the list has been superseded, do you mean we found new rishonim?
The Mishnah Berurah was only following the Mishkenos Yaakov and we know today that the overwhelming majority of Rishonim maintain that shishim ribo is a criterion of a reshus harabbim (see http://eruvonline.blogspot.com/2009/06/reprinting-of-berlin-edition-of-behag.html).
If you were to argue that the anti-eruv booklet was asinine I would understand you since it was basically a picture booklet. However, what can possibly be wrong with the kuntres supporting the eruv which included all the halachic issues and illuminated all the sources? You can follow all the sources and arrive at your own conclusions. I suspect you did not even look at the kuntres since it did mention rabbanim who were alive.
Everyone had to be educated including those whose rabbanim supported the eruv. Moreover, since the campaign against the eruv started in 1979 people became accustomed to the claim that there was no heter in the world to allow an eruv in Brooklyn. It was not just some thugs who needed this education. In any case, why do you think the anti-eruv group needed to disseminate their literature?
HIC – I am still wating for answers to my arguments aginst your claims, such as: show me one posek who argues that Ocean Parkway is the issue. Please state some information regarding the sefer Shomrei Mitzvos
sammygol: Very funny. Just one point, the fact that Brooklyn is encompassed by mechitzos would make any eruv included therein a Rambam eruv.
smartcookie: What are you scared of that you want this thread closed?
cherrybim: It is unclear what Rav Moshe upheld regarding a cul de sac. I have heard arguments both ways. For whatever its worth, I believe that Rav Moshe would allow.
According to those opposing the eruv besides for cul de sacs there are no other streets that would be allowed according to Rav Moshe, hence there are no other streets to omit from the boundaries of the eruv.
jphone: It is interesting how you continuously debate my arguments but then turn around and declare that my rebuttals do not concern you.
You are mistaken. The fact that Rav Dovid felt a need to pen a letter suggesting that nothing changed and attempted to rebut the main argument that would support the eruv (according to his father) proves that he was concerned with what was said by those who disagree with him.
Regarding this particular issue the only way that the public (including the rabbanim) can become familiar with the matter is through education. Over the years there has been much dissemination of the anti-eruv opinion but little from the opposing side. These mailings were designed to rectify this matter. In any case, I am happy to see that you are consistent and put everything in shaimos.
aryeh3: Because there is nowhere near a million people who come into Brooklyn daily and the population of Brooklyn is not three million and Brooklyn is encompassed by mechitzos.
No. Rav Dovid shlita wants to keep the status quo no matter what the facts are.
jphoneYour friends, I’m sure, are all tremendous geonim, poskim and lamdanim, not seen since the times of the Rambam, and I’m sure they can all run circles around R’ Dovid Shlita when it comes to hilchos eruvin. Therefore, on behalf of the entire tzibbur I humbly and respectfully ask that your friends publicly announce who they are, so that we can all benefit from their tremendous geonus and lamdus and have an open door for all shaylos we may have.