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Joseph:
Obviously you are. Please stop making assumptions based on your own feelings (WE ARE NOT REFORM JEWS!) and ask a Rav (I’m not saying you can, just that a Shaila should be asked) if you can embarass a parent so that they should take care of their children (or read the Rambam and then ask). Also please define an “Ani” (which is part of your confusion). That is a Halachic term with Halachic Nafki Miena.
Did you speak to your rav about what you need to give up in order to pay tuition?
Joseph:
1: You are confusing the chiyuv not to accept Tzedaka Vs. the Chiyuv to give. One who is poor is Chayiv not to rely on the Tzibbur if at all possible (ex. “Asai Shabbtcha Chol V’al Yitztarich L’briyos”, “Lo Ledai Matnas Basar V’dam”, etc.). However, if needed (or they choose not to fulfill their chiyuvim), I must give (prioritizing according to halacha).
2: The gemorah Kesubos 49b explicity says that one who does not provide for their children should be donounced in the streets, saying “A raven provides for its children and this man does not”. The Rambam in Ishus:
??? ???? ???? ??????? ????, ?? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ??????? ??????, ?? ????? ??? ?? ????. ???? ?????, ?????? ?? ?????? ????? ?????; ??? ?? ???–?????? ??, ???????? ????, ??????? ??. ?? ?? ???–??????? ???? ?????? ???????, ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????, ???? ??? ???? ???? ???, ???? ?? ?? ???????. ???? ????? ???? ?????, ??? ??.
I’m not saying this should be done (Ask a Rav:-), but being that tuition is a “basic need”, don’t say one burns for following the Gemarah. (Emotional Judaism?)
Joseph:
Please re-read my statement. I will Dan LeKaf Zechus.
enlightenedjew:
Are you suggesting that those who can not pay tuition in NYC should move out to have lower costs, thereby being able to raise their family?
I think that’s a wonderful idea! In fact, that is what happened to Lakewood until home prices got too high, and is still going on in the outer neighborhoods. We just need a new area (Waterbury comes to mind) that people can move to.
havesomeseichel:
To the most part (as I have said many times in the thread), schools that can not make it should fail and new ones will take their place. If nothing else, they can start with a clean slate.
havesomeseichel:
I (in general) view yeshiva like any business, in which there is professional courtesy that is not based on need. SJS is correct that it presumes the owner is turning a sufficent profit. If there is no profit (such as most if not all yeshivos) I hear cutting out professional courtesy.
I actually think tuition breaks should be based on willingness to send to yeshiva (worth of the education), that those who would send to public school should pay less (in order to keep their children in yeshiva) than those who would never do so (and therefore will pay or raise whatever is asked of them). That would be a different and new thread, as well as too radical to implement.
feivel: Some Gedolim b’davka held one should daven quickly, as to have Kavana the entire time that one davens. Just FYI, not arguing the point.
Joseph:
Fair response. Asking a Rov is always good 🙂
Have you ever dealt with this sort of question, as “what should be done to pay tuition”, and what are the responses (in a general, non-personal way knowing your response here should and will not be applied to any specific case)
Joseph:
“In communities where wives do work, it isn’t inappropriate.” It it worth not paying tuition over it? Also for the “Yeshiva World” (where many of us are, as are the parents of BYOBP) the school should have the mothers work?
SJS answered “Yes, older kids should be working to pay tuition if their parents cannot. Scholarships (especially in hard times) should be given as a last ditch effort, not as a first resort.”
I agree, and know of yeshivos that ask for it, by telling the bochrim they have to do some sort of work for the yeshiva in order to attend (on scholarships).
Joseph:
Yes or No. If you want, in general with a disclaimer.
Also does that mean there are cases where the wife should?
havesomeseichel: I’m not talking about free tuition, just a discount. I believe usual numbers are between 10-20%, depending on the profession.
havesomeseichel:
Some of them are Zionist or at least not Anti-Medina, which Joseph (Leshitaso) holds is Pikuach nefesh to send to 🙂
Joseph:
Yes, he said we should. If I had a safek, I would ask a specific question (such as the sick child).
B”H, in America, there is MOFES, so all “basic needs” (except tuition, which is arguable) are covered by the government, to the most part. I do not plan on laying out the Ramabam or Shulchan Aruch on Tzedoka here (or any personal information), but the short answer is yes to all three.
You are avoiding the question.
Yes or No. Should someone’s wife work in order to help pay tuition?
Joseph:
Saying “ask your Rav” and “follow Halacha” is always good. Don’t you want people to follow Halacha? Or do you want people to follow their emotions and not Halacha? I hope the former, as the latter would make someone (not you of course:) a Machti.
It was not a Shaila, it was a speech to give to the local instituitions over those outside, even though they send desperate “the sky is falling” letters (I imagine the one sent by BYOBP counts, unless Mepal was right:) I don’t see how this is any different, especially noting that Mepal has stated the school will not close in any event no matter what. (Too Big to Fail?)
Also please rephrase your last paragraph. I do not understand the question (you may have an extra “if”), and please define “basic needs”. That is getting to the heart of the question (see my post to AZOI on previous page).
BSD
Joseph:
I don’t feel there is any problem with every single one of these girls being transfered to another school or homeschooled, if needed. This is NOT pikuach nefesh, and is not a priority, according to MY Rov. (I would ask him regarding the sick child; It is a halachic, not emotional response that is required) I wonder what your rav would say; Would you mind asking him over shabbos? And while you are at it, please ask what one is Mechuyav to give up in order to pay additional tuition funds if you are not paying “full” tuition INCLUDING IF YOUR WIFE SHOULD WORK (which you have never given a straight answer even though many have asked you since the CR started). We expect a full report.
As a side note, I may have led people to a misunderstanding. Those who are in chinuch, teaching, etc. (which I am not) should get what is called “professional courtesy” and get a discount from everyone elses full tuition (no matter the financial status of the recipient), just like a dentist will charge another dentist less than the regular population.
areivimzehlazeh:
Not to say it isn’t wonderful, but everyone should follow the halachos of Tzedoka before they decide to give here over anywhere else. If Halacha (for you) says give here, Kol Hakavod.
kapusta:
I believe the point is that “in general” they are similar enough that no halachos are bent/broken by going to either (as opposed to a Co-Ed school, which is problematic at best), so parents who have no choice can go either way?
BS”D
AZOI.IS:
Do you really believe that? And even so, perhaps the families in Chinuch are mechuyav to walk into Wal Mart (or any other hiring store) and get money to pay their tuition. (I assume unemployed are already trying) Perhaps they (both) are Chayiv to work nights & weekends, or give up their free summers, tutor, have their wife or children work, etc. Did they ask a Shaila?
Perhaps they are chayiv to give up food, or at least certain types, as I have already pointed out. Maybe they are Chayiv sell their silver (if they have any), or move into a smaller apartment, and give the money to the school. That’s why the question is being asked.
mepal: If you knew this already, why didn’t you say so in the first place! Then no one would have worried about it, and we would have known it was just a bluff to raise funds (sounds Assur, but what do I know, I’m not a Posek:). I certainly don’t have (or want) to think about it. It depresses me to think of all the people who expect me (or those like me, who are working) to support them.
mepal: The problem is next year when whomever bailed out the schoool (if it is bailed out) is unwilling to do so.
Kapusta: If they want their children schooled, they have to follow the rules. They also have to accept the school they are given, if they are getting it as a gift.
I liked the direction the thread was going in yesterday. Does anyone have any Psak or experience (from a scholarship committee) what should (or is asked to) be given up to pay additional tuition funds?
If you turn your computer/modem off when it’s not using the internet, it would make sense (although I am far from a computer expert) that they will not be able to use your computer for an attack.
yoshi: I found it hard enough to learn Windows 🙂
mepal & others:
That is the idea of a “community” school, that accepts everyone from the area who is frum and willing to follow the rules. Perhaps this is what is needed in Brooklyn (and I thought Prospect Park was somewhat like that, but I seem to be wrong).
Is there no school other than BYOBP within lets say, half an hour’s bus drive that would accept these girls? (parental preferences aside, I think they have lost their right to choose if they are unwilling or unable to pay for it). If not, you have a situation similar to that in Lakewood & (I feel) the Rabbonim of the community should get involved to force the schools to accept these girls (if needed).
AZOI.IS: So you are telling me that these parents had no expectations to pay tuition (“The school is located in an area where parents were by and large not encouraged to seek higher education”) or have the ability to educate their own children, yet still we (as the frum world) want these children to have the Jewish Education as an absolute requirement that their parents are unwilling to provide?
PERHAPS (I am not a Posek, and I know this is strong, but) these children have halachic dinim of Yesomim (one whose parents are not willing to take care of their own children) and SHOULD be supported by the community?
Does anyone else agree with this assessment?
As for Joseph: It is quite a bit more than that by me (without getting into too much detail), and as I do not have anything to do with Hanhala, I can not give numbers as you did. I imagine there are tuition breaks as well, or perhaps they do work for the school; I don’t know.
I got the numbers I used from AZOI:IS “I think the average is quite a bit under 400 a month, with many unable to pay that at the present time.”
Joseph: Is it more? You tell me.
Mepal: “A parent sending their childrent to BYOB wouldn’t even consider PPY”.
Why not?
AZOI.IS:
I thought homes were more expensive in Boro Park. Perhaps they would move to somewhere further out, thereby lowering their costs?
A similar concept exists im Meah Shearim, where the housing is expensive and the people are less wealthy, and they are moving out to the newer charaidi communities (or at least their children are).
If tuition is so low (avg 2K) then I understand why the school is not making it. Thank you. The new questions are:
1: Why does this school attract low income parents (perhaps something to do with costs to move?), and how can it get current parents to pay more (especially being that they seeem to have “no” alternative). Once again, perhaps a minimum tuition is in order here?
2: Being that Flatbush is so close to Boro Park (10 min according to Google from 13th & New Utrecht to BLOPPY? (thats what came up when I searched for Prospect Park (what sort of name is that?)) why can’t these parents send to Flatbush schools?
Once again please excuse my ignorance.
BSD
mazal77:
Good point (besides the cost its the showiness which is bad in Galus), but its worse for those who actually do pay full tuition and drive a Yugo, and see those paying only partial driving a Leased Toyota.
A better (and more practical) idea is for everyone to cut back so that YOU can pay YOUR OWN school more, even if you don’t make (or have the education to make, but that’s for a different thread) enough to pay full tuition for your own children.
The yeshivas will make way more if every parent pays an additional 1K than they will make going after donors in these tough times.
AZOI.IS:
Thank you. It seems (from what you say) their clientele moved out and there is no demand for that school. It should close & sell the building to a chassidish school, and move elsewhere (perhaps Lakewood?).
I still don’t understand (may just be me) how this fits with what others (Why Do I Even Bother) tell me that there are 2K students. You would think that even at 5K a year average, that’s TEN MILLION dollars, and should cover a girls school even with a mortgage & staff (1/10 ratio (including janitors, office staff, part time, which is still way too much) = 200 staff @ 25K average = 5 Million).
What is the going rate for staff (half day, out of Sem) at a girls school in Brooklyn?
Why Do I Even Bother:
I guess I just feel you are “lucky” to have so many choices.
You did not answer the question. Just because it is your own “flavor” of chinuch does not mean the school deserves to be saved. What would be so bad if the school closed?
And yes, I do believe they will be absorbed into other schools. The other schools need the money too, and for minimal additional fixed costs (and if they want to add to the same class, small variable costs) they can add additional revenue.
Not to be mean, but why don’t you think economics (running the school like a business) will cause the girls to be absorbed?
AZOI: Now I really don’t understand. If the schools are beyond capacity, why are they not making it?
kapusta:
Very good point, sorry. I would ask your own Shaila, as the context which the statement was made (in a “more public” setting) did not attempt to cover those bases. I do know of those who moved to smaller homes or apartments (don’t remember which, part of a speech) to pay more in tuition, but that may be “Lifnim” (or the school would not give them a break as they thought others needed it more, who knows). Also as I stated before, if the school does not expect anyone to pay full tuition, then it may not even a cost point.
I am just as interested as you as per the answer (my guess is home, but as I did not ask and did not hear, so who knows), and would love some help here as well.
Thank you to…
*kapusta*
Why Do I Even Bother (or anyone else:)
If it really would close what would happen? It seems to me that the girls would go elsewhere (there are plenty of schools in NYC, even Boro Park, and schools would open to accept the additional demand (as per laws of supply & demand)), the teachers that are not being paid would have a chance to get a paying job?
Not to be silly, (just ignorant:) but I believe it is a question that needs to be asked. Why is it so bad if the school does fail?
Lo Habayshan Lomed.
Thank you.
squeak 🙂 Off topic but…
That only helps for the sink pipes. Other pipes can freeze especially if they are on an outer wall.
tzippi:
100% agreed. You also have to worry about your pipes freezing, which will cost you even more to repair. Turning the heat down (as to what extent, see end) won’t hurt, but as always, ASK YOUR RAV.
BSD
volvie:
I already stated I got a Psak. You, as I also stated, may have a different Psak. ASK YOUR RAV! There is the Din of “Asay Shabbatcha Chol V’al Yitztarech Lebriyos”, but I do not ask my Rav to explain his Psakim to me.
As far as the last point, it is a good one, but there is no reason to apply it to tuition costs (as it’s a Chov vs. a personal use, which then and only then are you allowed to pay for extras IF they are used to it. However, actual Tzedaka still comes before extras, which brings me to the final point..).
And once more, if people had infinite sums to use, then these would be paid as well (and I would not be here or working). It’s when there are finite funds then Halacha comes into play; And those who follow halacha (what you might call “frum people”) get before those who don’t (in general). This is not so simple (who decides what Avairos make someone not “Frum”), but for a different thread.
BS”D
Volvie:
Thank you for bringing the tone down, & noting that I may have been too harsh myself.
I may not like certain Halachos, but I still have to follow them. We (as Yirayim) do not practice “Emotional Halacha”. If halacha says go without shabbos clothes, eat Pasta or rice on Shabbos & set your thermostat to 14 or 15 degrees (C), or to work at Wal Mart or similar so that can pay more in tuition you should follow. (The going without heat to pay tuition is from the famous story with the Ridvaz, brought down in the Maggid books).
Those who have more may help, but there are many needs and to take away from those who do need (and sacrifice to subsidize the tuition of those who do not pay, in a situation similar to what havesomeseichel pointed out) is not right either. There are Halachos of Tzedoka that need to be followed as well.
And once again, we are not discussing those who had a job which would have paid the 50K in tuition in the first place (let alone other costs). However, I would expect them to forgo certain luxuries (even though I might be Chayiv to pay for them for him, he is Chayiv to give them up) in order to pay additional tuition funds (if he is a G-d fearing Jew, not someone who doesn’t care for their child’s Chinuch).
BSD:
Volvie:
First and foremost, I want to apologize for saying something that made you so upset, that was not my intention. You were very harsh on the response, I imagine you are going through something like this now (and can no longer pay full tuition). If you are having problems with your schools due to you losing your (or your spouse’s) job, please let a mod know, perhaps someone here can help.
Second, (although heat may be somewhat extreme, though turning way down is not), what I stated (not having “meat, chicken, shabbos clothes & heat (let alone vacations and weddings)”) is what you are MECHUYAV to do in order to pay full tuition, Al Pi the Psak I got. I also believe if I was out of work (and would not be here) and have a tuition issue, I would homeschool (and that would be a question I would ask my Rav as well).
Where you live, it may be different (I have found “in town” is very different than where I live, which is partially why I am here, to learn) as it may be that no one is expected to pay full tuition and it is only a negotiating point, not a real request. You have to ask your own Rav to see what is Halachicly correct for you to do.
Third, I was not even talking about someone who lost their job or even attemped to earn, but someone who is living “Al Daas” that the community would support them.
B’Hatzlacha
MM: Well said. One should conform if they are in the army, as those are The Rules; follow or leave. Same thing for a bochur in yeshiva, but no one has been able to tell me if this is a dress code or not (or if he was a member of the yeshiva)!?
MM: Let them not have their “extras” which they never had over the years, such as meat, chicken, shabbos clothes & heat (let alone vacations and weddings), and then we will talk. If they prioritized they would be able to pay more. They just don’t feel the need to pay as much as they could if they cut back. (and yes, my definition of “cut back” seems crazy to those who live now, but that’s the way it always was). Its still them expecting others to BAIL THEM OUT and they can do other things.
AZOI: In the school by us, there are a number of families that have been “written off” by the executive director as they used to pay full tuition, but the breadwinner lost their jobs. I would much rather help them (and they are local!) then another school. If that is the case for BYOBP as well, and not just bad finances and accepting additional non-payers (as others in the thread have said) then I feel bad for the school as well. I have a concrete idea earlier in the thread regarding how the school can stay open, they can implement that.
AZOI.IS: Based on what others have said earlier in the thread (I know nothing about the area), most of the parent body is not paying much, if any, tuition, even before this “crisis”. If they were able to pay full tuition, it would not be a crisis, as they would be able to get into other schools (assuming the situation in NYC is not similar to Lakewood; if so, I feel bad for those in BYOBP who do pay full tuition (and NYC in general)).
Hardworking does not equal a plan to pay tuition for children. As I said, a minimum tuition is in order here.
BSD
AZOI.IS:
1: Agreed. But in order to gain, you have to try (or at least buy a lotto ticket:) I’m not talking about the Gvir who lost his job at Bear Stearns (which may not be someone who sends to BYOBP), who chances are their school is willing to overlook due to past charitable donations.
2: Perhaps the needy institutions should ask their students pay full tuition (or at least some sort of minimum tuition, as I stated earlier in the thread). If those who have extra funds want to support their own children, let them do so, but I (and many others) don’t feel (and am not halachicly) Mechuyav to help them when they are not willing to help themselves.
starwolf:
Two Jews, Three opinions. Imagine how many opinions there will be with that many “Manhigim” 🙂
AZOI.IS: There is no reason why someone who planned and has money is Chayiv to give to those who did not plan and are still expecting others to bail them out. P’rikah is only if its “E’mo”.
A story to illustrate (Because I am upset about this, but mods feel free to delete).
There is a Blind man who comes to shul every now and then, claiming “he used to work but now can not support his family”. I have seen fewer and fewer people give. When I inquired, I found that his family is all grown and he is collecting to support them in Kollel & Beis Medrish with his collecting, rather than collecting for himself.
My complaint is less on the father then on the children. How can they ask their blind father to go out and collect for them, rather then they themselves taking a job!?
It goes back to expecting others to bail them out.
mepal: Maybe he thought it was Chavairim?
noitallmr:
Who says the person was a student of the yeshiva? Perhaps he just came in to learn? Are you telling me he is not welcome because he is wearing a blue shirt?
Also does that Yeshiva have a dress code of white shirts only? Even at the time of the picture (which was just copied from a previous year)?
I agree though with the point of following the yeshiva’s rules if you are a member of the yeshiva.
So What?
A cop made a mistake. The judge will throw it out. Done.
Wolf:
Yes, its his Chassidus. That gives him the power. The Rich man has the right to leave, if he feels thats what is best. But the Rebbe has the right to shun him as well.
Helpful:
Community support. If the Rebbe says to Rich Man A he needs X for the schools, either Rich Man A gives or he is kicked out. No such thing for non-Chassidish.
Does anyone have a location where I can read the letter sent?
CKK:
If everyone is paying full tuition and you are still short, then you should either be cutting costs or raising tuition. Planning a deficit is quite short-sighted.
I have an idea:
Way back when, high schools back in the Bronx during the depression had two “sessions”. It allowed children to play outside during half of the day (which they don’t get enough of nowdays as is) and learn the other half. With the exception of Davening (which who cares how large the class size is), this can be a possibility.
If this is implemented, then the Beis Yaakov can cut infrastructure & employee costs in almost half; by asking the teachers to remain in school from 7 – 6 (Like many other industries) for a higher wage (lets say 33% higher), they can fire close to half the staff and still save 25% of costs. If they expand class sizes then they can cut even more staff.
I know cutting staff is not a good thing, but its better than not opening!
One of the more interesting Raiyas to a Hashkafic concept is brought about 10 (11) Blatt later on (Tos. with the picture, DH U’Kegon). I would like to hear what Feivel (and the CR in general) thinks about it.
How would one spell “Tzlaffonis” in english?
Manoach is the Father of Shimshon (as per RG).
MM: If you are offering to give, I will accept for my community schools as well 🙂
Perhaps they should charge a minimum tuition?
It just sounds like a better idea than shutting down.
If its a community college, then you will still be sleeping at home, no?
Then one simple piece of advice. Spend as little time as possible on campus. Study, eat etc. at home or if need be in your car. There is no need to “hang out” on campus, do what you need to do (perhaps holding your nose, fig.) and leave.
Good luck