gavra_at_work

BS’D:

WolfishMusings:

Actually, Chazal (being Rashbam & Tosfos) say that the diagonal of a rectangle 4×6 is either equal (Rashbam) or less (Tosfos) than the diagonal of a square 5×5. So I would have not liked to have learned Math from them.

(Bava Basra 102a)

(For those who don’t know, a 4×6 rectangle has a larger diagonal (4^2 + 6^2)^.5 = 52^.5 ~ 7.21 than a 5×5 square (5^2 x 2)^.5 = 50^.5 ~ 7.07.

(I don’t intend to be mean, but) I see no point in further discussion with someone who would be willing to eat Chazer because he doesn’t understand that the Chachomim are not Malachim and/or are not omniscient. I don’t see why you are bothering.

How about the Museum of Science and Industry, it is supposed to be fantastic for children.

Or maybe go up to Lake Dillon & rent a boat. Talk about a view!

The Rambam that follows is even more pointed than the first: (Shiggagos 13:17)

???? ??? ??? ?????, ????? ???? ????, ????? ???? ???? ???, ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ???? ?? ????–??? ???? ?????? ?? ?????: ??? ??? ??????, ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ????; ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ?????, ???? ??? ??????–???? ???? ????, ????? ???? ?????.

If they (the people) knew Beis Din was wrong, then only the people are Chayiv (and are Mayzid!) as THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE FOLLOWED BEIS DIN!

Rambam Hilchos Korbonos 13:13

??? ?? ?? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ?? ??????–??? ??? ??? ??????, ??? ?????? ??????. ????: ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ????, ???? ??? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????, ????? ???? ??????, ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???, ?? ?? ?? ??? ?????–??? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ??????, ????? ????? ?????? ??????? ?? ????.

squeak:

Could be, but the point is the same. It is a large sum, but it does not create doubt in the truthfulness of the story. There is no reason why the money could not be raised in a short time or found by someone determined.

Joseph:

Like Rav Moishe Shternbach? Rav Zelik Epstien?

If you want to go this road, start a new thread.

I still don’t understand. Either way there is no reason to read jewish novels, either read Tanach & seforim if you need the “spiritual aspect”, or Pushkin if you don’t.

Of course, there are some real (actually happened) stories (such as “Nine Out of Ten”, (plug) that give chizuk & show hashgacha protis) then Jewish books that make sense to read. But the “fiction” Novels I just don’t get.

jewishsoul: My usual :-p

and ask your rav if you have a shaila 🙂

Joseph:

I know that (and have quoted it many times). It doesn’t hurt to try to find the few that are not interested in being supported 🙂

But seriously, how many of us (even now) could have supported a son-in-law like the TAZ (who insisted in the dowery that he be served meat every night, as that is what he needed to learn, and won a Din Torah when his shver (The Bach) wanted to serve him chicken (or lung) instead !!) (A rayah against CherryBim on both accounts)

tzippi: Not nogayah, as they would not have gotten in. The however many (don’t know exact number) that did get in (after knowing Nashim Nezikin Baal Peh) would rate, but almost all would go into rabbonus after a few years (as was the norm in Europe).

BSD

On the other side of Feivel (not detracting from his point), Rav Yaakov Kamenetsky has a (not so?) well known quote “and what is so bad about Agatha Christie?

OnlyEmes: we can both quote “banned” books 🙂

The purpose of Jewish books is only for the “lesson”, not for the reading itself. If you believe the sole purpose of reading is to have you or your child “learn a lesson”, buy all means only read Jewish Novels. In fact, why not only read Tanach? Jewish books are a waste of time as compared to Tanach, which you could be reading instead and learning a “lesson” from Hashem himself!

PM:

Sure, why deal with the 1800’s when we can talk about the times of Chizkiyahu when we had conscription INTO Kollel 🙂

Why Do I Even Bother:

I actually never saw the letter and I think I asked if anyone knows where it can be found online. Do you know where I can find it?

Yikes for the supplier. Tavo Alav Bracha.

Not sure why this is any different than refinancing to pay for your son (or son in law) to be in Kollel. I hear it is not uncommon (but don’t know of any actual cases). I do know a person who went into credit card debt (which is worse) to pay for his sons in law to stay in Kollel.

Nebech, but his daughter had her heart set on a Kollel Boy, and he could barely afford it, but she couldn’t get married without it. It was somewhat doable while the economy was running well, but now he is piling up debt, making minimum payments and can’t tell his children to get a job. Nebech.

🙁

Why Do I Even Bother:

They will sink their own ship. Every business fires workers when there is less demand. Just look at today’s economy. If BYOBP is ruled by the workers instead of the hanhala, the hanhala really should quit and see what happens (Who is John Gault!).

I didn’t think it possible, but I will feel even less bad if and when the school closes. They had the chance to save it, but didn’t have the guts to do so.

Joseph: I am still waiting on you for an idea.

Jothar: My understanding is that there were SOME (not all by a long shot) gedolim who decided that the talmidai chachomim of Europe needed to be repopulated by any means neccessary, creating a situation of “Eis La’asos”, and allowing everyone to accept public funds to only learn (as they “may” become a talmid chachom), not to prepare themselves for community service (which is the only Heter as per the Lechem Mishna (if I remember correctly) on the Rambam quoted on the subject), and not caring about the consequences. This view has become “Mainstream Yeshiva World”, with MO, Chassidim (I think) and others (including our family’s Rosh Yeshiva) rejecting this theory.

PM or Joseph: Can you confirm, or offer an alternate theory why this was allowed.

Why Do I Even Bother:

The administration should ask the Rabbonim to take over, if they want to go against the Gadol who was asked(?) and told BYOBP to close. Who are these local Rabbonim to go against a Shaila asked to a Gadol? In addition, the administartive staff should only work with the understanding that they get paid before all others, similar to bankruptcy law that the workers who are liquidating the bankrupt entity get paid before all creditors (or perhaps take a lein on these “Rabbonim” or their homes). Who is anyone to tell these people to work without pay?

I finally read the Hamodia article (on their website). Very enlightening. It seems to me that much more cutting (positions) could be done if they were really desperate (or perhaps its not giving the full picture).

Baruch Hashem.

BS”D

Yawn.

This is typical Charaidi EY. They “need” extra Shmira from the rest of the world, so they create chumras that will not allow them to have any contact with those outside.

Its the same concept with not allowing ballplaying.

I think if it doesn’t hurt anyone and WE know it is NOT TORAH M’SINAI, then it’s OK. I feel bad for them but realize this is the way they are brought up, creating new Gedarim not out of fear of Hashem, but what began as fear of having their followers leave the “Charaidi Lifestyle” to someone who may work, or perhaps a (C”V 😉 Tzioyni (Joseph’s greatest fear :-), but now seems to be the fear of not being the “most Machmir”.

I do not plan on responding to this post, as it gets too sticky. Joseph, please realize the comment was made as a joke (not as an insult) & was mentioned because to a certain extent it is true.

havesomeseichel:

Vouchers are a wonderful idea (and I would vote for them), but being that it has been tried for the last fifty years (by the Agudah as well as others) with little or no success, perhaps we should not wait for it? Particularly when state budgets are in the red and being cut, we can’t expect any help from the goverment.

AZOI: Its called a more “modern” yeshiva by definition if it calls to think about parnassah. Seeing how many people want to move to be more Machmir, the schools will not move in that direction.

I want to know where the money is coming from.

Joseph:

I’m still waiting for an answer from you. Did you ask a Rav what you need to give up to pay tuition? Also read up the rest of the thread that you “missed” further up. 🙂

(Once again to Dan LeKaf Zechus)

Artchill:

“Regarding tuition, tuition is an arbitrary figure meant to challenge the wealthy to step up.”

I suspected that is the case “in town”. Are you confirming this? Have you spoken to the various administrators? Do the offer a tax deduction (since the money is not required to be paid, they may have to give a tax deductible reciept for “no goods or services”)?

Heshy:

Depends what the market can bear and where you live. In town has higher expenses but more competition.

AZOI.IS:

Which makes those who started it responsible.

It seems from what you are saying that the yeshivos only have look in the mirror when they try to find someone to blame?

One additional point. Perhaps a named scholarship may be in order, for those Yesomim whose parents refuse to/can not in any way pay tuition? This is done in many colleges (named scholarships for underprivliged students) and is something to look at.

AZOI.IS:

Very Good. You have found the fallacy of the argument.

No Gadol will embarass anyone to pay tuition because:

1: Tuition is not a neccessity

2: Tuition is covered anyway by the community

3: Embarassing someone who has no skills, no education and a large family (all by choice and recomendation of these same Gedolim) will not help them pay. The gemorah is dealing with someone who would be able to pay if they were embarassed into doing so, while these people B’derech Teva have no possibility of taking care of their children, so what would be the point of embarassing them!

In the meantime, we are losing those who refuse to pay higher tuition costs due to them subsidizing others (the parents are sending to public school where they may go off, CV) and the children who have a much better chance (if not as good as in BY) in public school (like those girls from BYOBP) are being cried over. Cry for those who are being lost, not those who are not.

BS”D

Joseph:

Who is talking about the children? I am discussing the parents. The children are an effect that Halacha is not concerned with.

I bring Halacha, you are still bringing feelings. Next someone (not you) is going to tell me that they FEEL for certain people who practice To’eiva and they should allowed to be like anyone else? Perhaps we shouldn’t EMBARASS them and allow them to marry (an extreme example)?

We have a Torah. The Gemorah, Rambam, Tur & Shulchan Aruch all say to EMBARASS the man who does not take care of his children. The Shulchan Aruch adds that for a rich man, we take from him Ba’al Korcho. (Even Haezer 71). (I apologize if I am once again too harsh)

I am going to add that this is similar to Shaul, when he was unable to go against the people due to his Yiddishe Middos. It is not an easy thing to go against our inner nature, like when we will have to wipe out Amalek and kill even the animals. We will do it, as the Torah says you must. We have the same concept here.

Kapusta: who doesn’t have something? Why is someone not Mechuyav to sell their silver liechter or engagement ring (or at least ask a Rav!) to pay tuition?

The yeshivas can use the extra week w/o students to prepare, considering the Rabbaim & Moros have only returned (assuming they were gone) just now.