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Lakewood Fellow -“He was working with the enemies of the movement to bring it down he wasn’t innocent or a civilian.”
I find it beyond disgusting to Ok killing of civilians because you are opposed to them politically. Yes, in this world -this is called civilains. While I’m personally against the Rabin assination -he was more of a non-civilian than this guy, but the killing of Rabin is terrorism acc. to you and the killing of this religious Jew is justified. Do you consider yourself s/o who keeps the Torah?
“Those “markets” were well known places were Arab gangs met to plan attacks against the Jews. But you wouldn’t know that if your entire knowledge of history comes from googling select Wikipedia articles.
The hotel was a known place were Arabs cordinated attacks. Even a simple google search of the Hotels name would tell you that, so even you should know it.
Deir Yassin (now Har Nof), was a village situated on a strategic mountain top and was used by the Arabs to launch attacks on the Jews below. Due to the non stop attacks coming from the village the Irgun issued warnings to the civilians in the village to evacuate because they were going to take over the town. Some Arabs did evacuate. Others chose to stay. When the Jews came the Arab fighters hid and fought in the houses of the village. Door to door fighting ensued and there were casualties. There was no “massacre”.
the rest of the attacks you mentioned are clearly on military targets and therefore are not “Terrorism”.”
You have just proven to e/o that you are no different than those Muslims who condone Terrorism. Funny they say the same thing (at least they used to) we were trying to kill military objects -it’s not our fault the civilains got in the way. It’s funny how you condone bombing marketplaces because there are enemies there -it doesn’t matter that civilains will be killed also. So the next time a terrorist blows up a bomb in an Israeli marketplace -you will defend them because after all they were targeting their enemies -so who cares if civilains got killed also. And this defense of Deir Yassin that you say is ok because they were attacking Jews. So it was the job of this Jewish group to uphold the law, right? They were given legal authority to uproot terrorists in Palestine. Yes, in this world if s/o is attacking you -you can shoot back -defend yourself, but to go and play policeman when not authorized is vigilantism and in this case it’s terrorism because they killed innocent civilains. You make it sound that it’s like the same thing when Israel goes into Gaza and there is civilain casualities. Wrong Mister, Israel is a legal entity and they went in there to defend themselves against terrorists.
You have just let e/o in the world know that Zionism hasn’t changed since that time. I always thought even the Zionists realized -that that was a dark time in their history.
You have done more to damage/tarnish Zionism then I could have done in my lifetime by admitting terrorism is Ok as long as the terrorists are on your side!
ifti99 -“Health reminds me of the simple minded pigs in Orwell’s Animal Farm: “Me-right! Zionism-wrong!” “
I know you’re right because the Zionists have turned EY into an animal farm with all their Kibbutzim and other Communist ideas.
Jews are humans and live by the Torah.
Lakewood Fellow -“No, you were, and you called me a liar for disagreeing with you remember? Anyway the British never had in mind to let as many Jews wanted to emigrate to Palestine and proved it by their actions and words: They enacted white paper after white paper and were very clear that they wouldn’t allow the character of Palestine to change to where it would be dominated by a large immigrant Jewish Population”
Well you are a liar and my posts were not my opinion -they were historical facts. And now you are repeating the same lies over and over again. The English wanted Palestine to be a Jewish homeland -that means taking in Jews. How much would be the end result -who knows except for you because you have Nevuah and know they really didn’t mean it. And the fact that they limited Jewish immigration was because of arab opposition, which this limiting was started by a Zionist Jew named Samuel.
GAW -“I happen to (personally) like this argument. Good luck convincing a non-Charaidi Jew that Charadim are correct because the Charaidi lifestyle is the correct one.”
No, that wasn’t the purpose of the argument. I know I’m not going to convince any Chiloni about this. The purpose was to “mdd”, who keeps screaming Chillul Hashem because he defends this current Gov. He kept making it sound that if we don’t follow the orders of this current Gov. then it’s our fault for any punishment that they give us. This is Not correct Morally and this is what my post was about.
Lakewood Fellow -“OK do you mind naming ONE Jewish Zionist group that officially conducted operations blowing up anything but military targets?
Can you name one that praised or committed any attack that clearly targeted civilians (like blowing up civilian airliners or buses etc.)
Go ahead Name one”
And what happens when I do? Are you going to have a political change of heart? Of course Not. We will just be subjected to more Zionist propaganda & lies.
But I’m not doing for you or the Zionist ilk -I’m doing it so all the readers here in the CR know the Truth!
From Wikipedia – a timelime of the major Jewish terrorist attacks:
[29] for his anti-Zionist political activities and contacts with Arab leaders.[30]
[citation needed]
July 15, 1938*, a bomb left in the vegetable market in Jerusalem by the Irgun injured 28[31]
July 25, 1938* the Irgun threw a bomb into the melon market in Haifa resulting in 49 deaths[32]
November 6, 1944 Lehi assassinated British minister Lord Moyne in Cairo. The action is condemned by the Yishuv at the time, but the bodies of the assassins are brought home from Egypt in 1975 to a state funeral and burial on Mount Herzl.[citation needed]
1946 Railways and British military airfields were attacked several times.
October 31, 1946 The bombing by the Irgun of the British Embassy in Rome. Nearly half the building was destroyed and 3 people were injured.[33]
April1947* an Irgun bomb placed at the Colonial Office in London failed to detonate.[34]
July 25, 1947 The Sergeants affair: When death sentences were passed on two Irgun members, the Irgun kidnapped Sgt. Clifford Martin and Sgt. Mervyn Paice and threatened to kill them in retaliation if the sentences were carried out. When the threat was ignored, the hostages were murdered. Afterwards, their bodies were taken to an orange grove and left hanging by the neck from trees. An Improvised Explosive Device was set. This went off when one of the bodies was cut down, seriously wounding a British officer.[35]
April 1948 the Deir Yassin massacre carried out by the Irgun and Lehi, killed between 107 and 120 Palestinian villagers,[36] the estimate generally accepted by scholars.[37][38]
September 17, 1948, Lehi assassination of the United Nations mediator Count Bernadotte, negotiator of the release of about 31,000 prisoners including thousands of Jews from German concentration camps during World War II,[39][40] whom Lehi accused of a pro-Arab stance during the cease-fire negotiations.”
Lakewood Fellow -“Second of all it is apparent that you don’t really know anything about the History of Israel, Zionism or the middle east but if you would even just read the Wikipedia article on the Balfour declaration you would see that you are wrong. There is a big difference between a “national homeland” and an independent Jewish state, complete with an Army.”
You are chasing your tail. I never was arguing on this fact, even if I used the word “State”. My argument with you was about Jewish immigration to Palestine. You probably have even forgotten this because you have confused yourself with your many, many lies.
Here is more proof about their intentions of Jewish immigration.
From the Jewish Virtual library:
“The Mandate for Palestine’s purpose was to put into effect the Balfour Declaration. It specifically referred to “the historical connections of the Jewish people with Palestine” and to the moral validity of “reconstituting their National Home in that country.” The term “reconstituting” shows recognition of the fact that Palestine had been the Jews’ home. Furthermore, the British were instructed to “use their best endeavors to facilitate” Jewish immigration, to encourage settlement on the land and to “secure” the Jewish National Home. The word “Arab” does not appear in the Mandatory award.
The Mandate was formalized by the 52 governments at the League of Nations on July 24, 1922.”
mdd -“The IDF brass says they can manage without them, but a lot of stam Israelis fell it is unfair for the Chareidim to be getting money from the State while refusing to do what (in their eyes) is a service to the State — the army duty, or contribute to the common basket by working. They agreee to free a large persentage from the army duty. They pay and they make the rules as to who get sthe money.”
Yes, I know about their new cry of “sharing the burden”, in other words -“Boo Hoo, it’s not fair”.
No. 1. The fact that they don’t have a Torah education that teaches “Torah protects” is Not the Charedim’s fault -it’s their fault that these Chilonim don’t want to learn any Torah, but if they wanted to there is ample opportunity in EY to learn Torah.
So the Truth is the Charedim learning Torah are doing more than their fair share.
2. If the army says we don’t want to change the way the army works -who are these politicians to say -we will force change on you? Perhaps the reason the army wants to keep everything the same because this way the army gets the most out of their personnel. If you have a bigger influx of recruits this means less time in army service, just maybe less time is Not enough to get experienced soldiers. Being a soldier is not about just shooting a gun anymore -they have something called modern warfare. And this is why most countries have gotten away from the draft.
So this sick jealously that they have on Charedim and their opinion that Charedim don’t deserve anything, just like arabs, is actually putting the whole country in danger.
But they don’t care about having a strong army – all they care about is stopping the Charedim from practicing their religion. It’s called religious coercion. Just like what was done in the time of the crusades and during the Spanish Inquisition, etc.!
Lakewood Fellow -“Again the fact that you can compare the Irgun’s activities against Military targets of people who were actively siding with the Arabs against the Jews and making it impossible for the Jews to defend themselves with Muslims blowing up buses, planes and buildings with the express goal of killing as many innocent woman and children as possible shows an astounding lack of knowledge in the history of what actually happened.
(yes I know about the King David hotel so don’t start… The British were warned to evacuate the Hotel hours before the attack but they refused because “They didn’t take orders from Jews” and the Hotel was being used by the British for military purposes)
With all due respect, You really should learn some more history…”
It seems to me you are the one changing history. Just FYI, Irgun was one of a few Jewish terrorist groups. The Jewish terrorists attacked civilains along with military targets -this is why they are terrorists. And you believe it’s ok to be a terrorist as long as they are fighting for what you believe in. You are no different than most of the arab world. Terrorism perpertrated by anyone, Jew or Not, is more than just Not Okay!
Lakewood Fellow -“The fact that you could compare Yigal Amir to someone like Menachem Begin who refused to fire back at Jews even when he was being fired upon by them because “Jews don’t kill other Jews” shows such a lack of knowledge in the history of Zionism and history of Israel that I am not even sure how to respond to it.”
You so missed my point. I didn’t compare terrorist to terrorist. Some can be worse than others. I compared you to the arab world. They are indifferent to terrorism and so are you! Terrorism is subhuman whether the terrorist is a Muslim or a Jew!
“Besides the whole premise you are using to argue that Zionism is bad is a flawed one as I pointed out in an earlier comment:
Finding something wrong that a Zionist leader did or a bad judgement call that one made and pointing to that as if it proves that the idea of making a Jewish state is a bad one, Zionism is bad, or that the Jewish state does not benefit Jewry; has the same amount of validity as pointing to a Frum Rov who did a bad thing or made a bad judgement call and saying that the fact that a Rov made a bad decision proves that Frum Jewry is bad….
Which is to say that it has no validity and is not an argument.”
You are so misguided – I honestly don’t know where to start. The main problem with Zionism, in the form that it was started, is that it is/was based on Kefira. It has nothing to do with the individuals that represent them, even though there is nothing wrong in showing e/o their faults.
writersoul -“(And yes, Health, I’ve heard about your plan to turn the State over to Turkey, and a while back I already told you what I thought about it.)”
Funny I don’t recall asking your opinion about my idea. Yes, you have that right on YWN to state your opinion, but you seem to imply that you are given the final say on others’ opinions.
I don’t need you to ok my idea for me to post it or have it.
So I’m not really interested what you think about it. The fact is getting rid of the Medina will put most of the Muslim world at peace with the Jews. You just can’t give it directly to the arabs because their hatred has been brewing for close to or over 100 years and there will be a massacre. Turkey only became an official enemy of Israel 2 years ago.
ifti99 -“Really?
Ever hear of the York massacre?
The completion expulsion of Jews from England for over 350 years?
The revocation of giving Jews citizenship in 1754 just a year after it passed (it was revoked due to British Anti-Semitism)?”
Yes, so they were once antisemitic, what does it have to do with the early part of this century? When I said never that meant in the time period we were discussing.
“Though there was some growing anti-semitism during the 1930s, this was counterbalanced by strong support for British Jews in their local communities leading to events such as the Battle of Cable Street where anti-semitism was strongly resisted by Jews who fought it out on the street with Fascists elements. Consistent with its complex history, Britain was not particularly receptive to Jewish refugees fleeing the Nazi regime in Germany, and the other fascist states of Europe. Approximately 40,000 Jews from Austria and Germany were eventually allowed to settle in Britain before the War, in addition to 50,000 Jews from Italy, Poland, and elsewhere in Eastern Europe. Despite the increasingly dire warnings coming from Germany, at the Evian Conference of 1938, Britain refused to allow further Jewish refugees into the country.”
This is totally irrevelant. How about posting a whole European history book here? So there were fascists living in Britain -so what? And the fact that they didn’t agree to letting in as many Jews as possible into England doesn’t mean without the arabs hounding them that they would have adopted the same policy in Palestine.
Lakewood Fellow -“No, it wasn’t at all. Read about it a little more. The British were clear that there was no intention “to set up a Jewish Republic or any other form of state in Palestine or in any part of Palestine”. Churchill was clear on this as well. They had no interest in there being a Jewish Government or all, let alone a Jewish defense force or Jews having a right to settle in Palestine.”
It’s amazing to me how you have no embarrassment to lie so openly, just so you should be right.
This from a Website called Zionism Israel -obviously from Zionists:
“In his introduction to Nahum Sokolow’s History of Zionism, Balfour makes it clear that he supported the project of a “national home” for the Jewish people because he believed it was just.”
I know these zionists are lying and they are really Anti-zionists.
“Riggghhht… and the Germans treated Jews great before the Germans were defeated in WW1 and the Jewish led Bolshevik communist revolution happened. So the German’s hate of Jews was probably due to those degenerate Jewish commies trying to take over Europe…. every Anti Semite uses some pretense, Zionism was the Britsh and Arab’s. Why you believe them is beyond me”
I have no idea why Germans hated Jews the way they did, but the arabs, in the early part of this century, hated Jews due to Zionism.
CH -“I expect it from clueless leftists who don’t understand the nature of the Arab and Iranian extremists, or from the rashaim who are out to destroy us all. I don’t expect to see commenters on a frum web site allying themselves with the enemies of the Jewish people.”
Yes Charlie, it had to come to this because the current Israeli Gov. is out to destroy Yiddishkeit and discriminate against Charedim. What I don’t understand is that you stand up against my comments, but don’t stand up against the current Gov.
Is Zionism more important to you than True Torah Judaism?
mdd -“Health, you do not hold of the medinah, but you think that it has an absolute chiyuv to support the Chareidim in kollel. If they don’t hold of the medinah, let them go get a job. In E.Y. or otherwise.
Maybe all frum Jews here in the US should drop their jobs and demand being supported?”
Why put words in my mouth just to ask questions? I posted many times that I personally don’t believe that Yeshivos should take money from the Gov.
I’ll repeat it again. I’m against this Gov. – 1. Because they want to remove the religious Status Quo and revert to a non-religious, non-Jewish (Judaism is only following some Halacha at least) Zionist State.
2. They are forcing Charedim to go to the army against the Psak of the Gedolim. And if they don’t go, they are going to deny or revoke some/all of their individual social programs. Since they don’t really want them in the army because the IDF said so -“We don’t want or need them” -this is only a pretense. They just don’t want to give social programs to Charedim because they are considered second-class citizens like the arabs. This discrimination is intolerable to me!
Lakewood Fellow -“One more point, I happen to sympathize more with the Menachem Begin approach that trying to negotiate with and appease the British and Arabs into giving the Jews a state would have never worked and was a waste of time, but it wasn’t so clear to most people right away.”
It’s very sad to me to read that a Jew believes/sympathizes in terrorism. Yes, this is exactly the reason all terrorists give because it’s a means to an end. Why are you any different than any arab/muslim terrorist like Al Quaida? They also give this excuse that it’s a means to an end. The world must be crazy because they think terrorism is against e/o’s moral code! And the wars that the US is in right now was declared a war against terrorism by President Bush. I guess you hold the US is unjustified in their war against Terror!
ifti99 -“You gotta love these wikipedia posts and the blind faith that “Health” has in them. We have now proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that El-Husseini was a murderous anti-Semite who believed all Jews anywhere in the world should be dead. It must be the zionists’ fault (the same as the zionists are to blame for the holocaust and every other Jewish tragedy).”
The historical facts are that the Mufti became Antisemitic due to his opposition of Zionism. I’m sorry that the facts don’t coincide with Zionist beliefs, but they are still the facts!
Lakewood Fellow -“This idea that since some early Zionists in the process of making a state thought it was a good idea to slowly ease into the region and not just declare a state outright to the Pretty hostile English and the very hostile Arabs has no bearing on what would have happened had there been a state of Israel earlier.”
Nonsense! The English weren’t hostile. And the arabs were only hostile due to zionism.
“The fact remains that Israel is the only country that allows Jews to settle in its borders and grants them citizenship simply by virtue of them being Jews. If there was a state during WW2, there would of course have been no immigration quotas in the state, just like every religious, not religious and even anti Zionist Jew is given the right to settle is Israel now with no questions asked-just because they are Jewish.”
Yes, but they don’t allow them to be Jews in their homeland. Look what they did to Frum Jews coming out of arab lands. They almost all Shmad them. Now they don’t because of the improvments that the Charedim have done in the Israeli Gov.
So Zionists like you want to go back to the good ole days of Shmad and that’s why you voted in the likes of Lapid & Bennett. They want to go back to the good ole days when Israel didn’t have a Jewish (Halachic) face!
Lakewood Fellow -“Yes because he believed that not shaking things up too much too fast with the British and Arabs was the smartest idea. It wasn’t out of some kind of desire to have less Jews in the Holy Land.
As an aside while the British were busy enforcing the white paper quotas on the Jews they were ignoring mass illegal Arab immigration into Palestine. It was their way of getting out of the commitments they made to the Jews-flood Palestine with hostile Arabs and let them do the dirty work”
More lies. In your desire to make the Zionists right you keep lying. Since you’re so brainwashed you can’t see that the English limited Jewish immigration to Palestine for the same reason as Samuel – to appease the arabs. It wasn’t antisemitism.
And the reason the British didn’t enforce illegal Arab immigration was because to make secure borders for Palestine would cost too much money and resources like manpower. It’s much easier to stop some boat from landing in Palestine than it was to keep the arabs out. I know I must be wrong and those darned English Antisemites.
“Sure. They give it if they feel it will benefit them, they are pressured or if they are forced to give it up (Which ultimately is what happened. The Balfour declaration was a far cry from giving the Jews a country.
If you want to believe that British Goyim have some sort of special love for the Jews you can… I just can’t for the life of me figure out why…”
And I can’t for the life of me figure out how come you believe all the Zionist propaganda. The Balfour declaration was exactly that a plan to give Jews a country. You keep on with this nonsense that they were pressured into it and didn’t really want to do it. Noone does something they don’t want to. The historical facts are they wanted to give the Jews a homeland. Repeating the same lies doesn’t change the historical facts.
“You mean like Menachem Begin? You’re really on the side of the British on that one???? I’m sort of at a loss here.”
What you believe now in terrorism? It’s ok by you? Did you ever open up a Chumash? Did you also praise the guy who killed Rabin? After all he was only a terrorist.
“and now I have you are saying that the only reason the Arabs and British didn’t like Jews is because of “Jew Terrorists””
Let’s get it straight -the British never hated the Jews. After the Jews started with terrorism – I’m sure this didn’t increase their love towards Jews. The arabs only started hating Jews vehemently because they were against Zionism. This is historical fact, no matter how much you deny it.
“Yeah whatever… I just never realized that the newest in thing was to find ways to blame Jews for Goyim hating and killing them”
No, I’m not blaming Jews per se – I’m blaming Zionism. And I’ve proven it. They are not one in the same, no matter how much you believe that they are!
Mod -this post wasn’t long -look at my posts above.
Lakewood Fellow -“This copying entire Wikipedia articles as if they prove some sort of point is kind of annoying…”
And your constant repetition of the Zionist propaganda lies is even more annoying.
“Yeah, because they wren’t thinking about it when they first took it over. The second the Zionists starting getting enough Jews to settle in E”Y that the British noticed they all of a sudden became “concerned” about the “stability” and “effects” that the Jews were having in the region. A trend that continues among the Goyim today.”
Another fabrication by you or you got it from official Zionists?
If you would have read the article you would have seen the first person in the English Gov. to start limiting the immigration was Samuel, not some antisemitic Englishman. And even after this point – the British Gov. went on to write the white paper of ’22 and then make the Balfour declaration. So enough with your Zionist lies that it was the antisemitic English Gov. who started with limiting the immigration -it was this Zionist guy Samuel. The fact that they continued it doesn’t make them any more antisemitic than him.
“Again you believe the British loved the Jews more then any other nation. I don’t know were you get this idea from, they signed the Balfour declaration very grudgingly, under pressure and ultimately betrayed it.”
It’s not my belief, it’s obvious from the facts. Noone gives a religion/nation a homeland because s/o else told them to. They did it because they wanted to. So they aren’t as antisemitic as you claim.
“Your weird insinuations that High Commissioner Samuel or any Zionist was pro the white paper of 39 is absurd as well. (Samuel was high commissioner quite a bit before 39… I’m not sure why you brought him up at all….. as far as the white paper of 22 that whitepaper was allot more then would be allowed by Britain if the Jews didn’t compromise and blew the whole thing-contrary to what you seem to believe Britain was looking for a way out of the Balfour declaration almost as soon as they were pushed into issuing it)”
You obviously didn’t really read my post -I didn’t really think you would -the truth is painful.
I just posted this a few lines ago, perhaps if I repost it -it will sink in- “If you would have read the article you would have seen the first person in the English Gov. to start limiting the immigration was Samuel, not some antisemitic Englishman. And even after this point – the British Gov. went on to write the white paper of ’22 and then make the Balfour declaration.”
Which zionist or which zionist school drilled it into your head that the English were really antisemites? They became that way after they saw what the Zionists really were. Did you ever hear of Jewish terrorists before the creation of the Medina?
“Oh no, the only terrorists are Muslims.”
Just so you know -there are some of us who can see through Zionist propaganda even if many Jews swear by this Idol – Zionism.
cool it and try to shorten your posts
charliehall -“Actually, the two most important British leaders at the time — PM David Lloyd-George and FM Arthur Balfour — both fancied themselves as philo-Semites. Lloyd-George in particular seems to have enjoyed thinking of himself as the man who would return Jews to the Holy Land. Winston Churchill also fancied himself a philo-Semite but he had little input into anything at that time.”
CH, thank you; no matter what your political leanings at least you speak the truth, not like other zionists.
The Kanoi Next Door -“That’s ridiculous. Bringing down the government will make things worse, not better. How are the populations in Egypt and Syria doing?”
When I said bringing down the Gov., I didn’t mean revolution like in those countries. Yes, this Gov. is Not all powerful, even though lots of posters here think that they are. The last time a Lapid was in office -the Gov. didn’t last too long.
If Israel’s economy takes a quick downturn -this Gov. won’t last too long. Your pacifist tone doesn’t make me believe that you’re a real Kanoi. Perhaps your SN is wishful thinking on your part.
What are you gonna do when Charedim start starving and being treated like garbage? Are you just gonna shake your finger at the zionists and say No, No -that’s not nice – play fair?
2scents -“Since that would have been the factor of not providing CPR, she would have either mentioned it to the dispatcher, or she would have told that to someone.”
She could have mentioned it to the dispatcher, but the fact that she didn’t – doesn’t mean she didn’t know about the DNR.
“This was not the reason she stated on why she refused to let the dispatcher talk to someone else.”
Because she didn’t think that it was relevant, which it isn’t, because she obviously wasn’t holding the DNR in her hand. If she did have a copy – she would have given it to EMS when they arrived.
Mods -Again sorry for this long post, but the Zionists here are rewriting history so e/o should believe the Zionist propaganda.
Lakewood Fellow -“You seem intent on taking Anti Semites at their words that the reason they hate Jews is really because of the pretext they give:
Or do you only believe the Arabs who used the pretext that they hate Jews because of Zionism?”
Just so you should know my responses to you are not to convince you, but to prevent others from becoming infected with the Zionist delusion!
You seem to keep arguing with – “what I believe”. This has nothing to do with what I believe. This is historical fact, whether you deny it or not. The arabs/muslims, like any Goy, hates Yidden, but the desire to totally destroy them comes from their opposition to Zionism.
“Besides for being untrue as many countries and rulers who dislike Jews will do something that benefits the Jews if it is in their interest and if they are pressured enough;
You haven’t put forward a good argument as to why you believe the British would have done what no other country was willing to do namely open borders of its territories to the fleeing Jews and not find a pretext to avoid doing so like the USA and every other country did.”
Again since you never studied history – you believe the Zionist propaganda as fact. The fact is that Britain didn’t put any limit on Jewish immigration to Palestine when they first took it over. The Zionist Jew Samuel was the first one to do so. He did this to appease the arabs and then the British Gov. continued to appease the arabs by their “White paper” of ’39.
The fact is Britain adopted the Balfour Declaration because they liked Jews, not like any other country ever did. This is why they put Samuel, a Zionist, in the job of High Commissioner of Palestine. If this Zionist wouldn’t have felt the need to appease arabs -there is no reason to think that the English would have done so on their own. They wanted a Jewish state in Palestine so of course they would allow immigration of Jews there.
I’m sorry that the facts don’t jive with the Zionist propaganda that have been drilled into you since childhood!
You will see from the next article where I got my Facts from.
From Wikipedia”
“Samuel’s appointment to High Commissioner of Palestine was controversial. While the Zionists welcomed the appointment of a Zionist Jew to the post, the military government, headed by Allenby and Bols, called Samuel’s appointment “highly dangerous”.[5] Technically, Allenby noted, the appointment was illegal, in that a civil administration that would compel the inhabitants of an occupied country to express their allegiance to it before a formal peace treaty (with Turkey) was signed, was in violation of both military law and the Hague Convention.[6] Bols said the news was received with ‘(c)onsternation, despondency, and exasperation’ by the Moslem [and] Christian population … They are convinced that he will be a partisan Zionist and that he represents a Jewish and not a British Government.'[7] Allenby said that the Arabs would see it as “as handing country over at once to a permanent Zionist Administration” and predicted numerous degrees of violence. Lord Curzon read this last message to Samuel and asked him to reconsider accepting the post. (Samuel took advice from a delegation representing the Zionists which was in London at the time, who told him that these ‘alarmist’ reports were not justified. Samuel’s memoirs, p. 152.) The Muslim-Christian Association had sent a telegram to Bols:
‘Sir Herbert Samuel regarded as a Zionist leader, and his appointment as first step in formation of Zionist national home in the midst of Arab people contrary to their wishes. Inhabitants cannot recognise him, and Moslem-Christian Society cannot accept responsibility for riots or other disturbances of peace’.
The wisdom of appointing Samuel was debated in the House of Lords a day before he arrived in Palestine. Lord Curzon said that no ‘disparaging’ remarks had been made during the debate, but that ‘very grave doubts have been expressed as to the wisdom of sending a Jewish Administrator to the country at this moment’. Questions in the House of Commons of the period also show much concern about the choice of Samuel, asking amongst other things ‘what action has been taken to placate the Arab population … and thereby put an end to racial tension’. Three months after his arrival, The Morning Post wrote that ‘Sir Herbert Samuel’s appointment as High Commissioner was regarded by everyone, except Jews, as a serious mistake.’
Historic plaque on King George Street, Jerusalem, affixed in 1924 by Herbert Samuel during his term as High Commissioner of Palestine
T. E. Lawrence (a.k.a. Lawrence of Arabia) with Sir Herbert Samuel, Sheik Majid Pasha el Adwan (at far right) and Gertrude Bell (at left) at the aerodrome of Amman, April 1921
Sir Herbert Samuel, seated centre, with Jerusalem church leaders and British officials, 1922.[edit] High Commissioner of Palestine
As High Commissioner, Samuel attempted to mediate between Zionist and Arab interests, acting to slow Jewish immigration and win the confidence of the Arab population. He hoped to gain Arab participation in mandate affairs and to guard their civil and economic rights, while at the same time refusing them any authority that could be used to stop Jewish immigration and land purchase.[8] According to Wasserstein his policy was “subtly designed to reconcile Arabs to the […] pro-Zionist policy” of the British.[9] Islamic custom at the time was that the chief Islamic spiritual leader, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, was to be chosen by the temporal ruler, the Ottoman Sultan in Constantinople, from a group of clerics that were nominated by the indigenous clerics. After the British conquered Palestine, Samuel chose Hajj Amin Al Husseini, who later proved a thorn in the side of the British administration in Palestine. At the same time, he enjoyed the respect of the Jewish community, and was honored by being called to the Torah at the Hurva synagogue in the Old City of Jerusalem.[10]
[11]”
The Kanoi Next Door -“Health, how exactly do you think sanctions against Israel will help the Chareidim? Actually, all it would do is hurt all the Jews living in Israel, regardless of their affiliation.”
It will bring down the Gov. sooner or later. When people suffer they blame their Gov.
ifti99 -“If your idea of “facts” is quoting Wikipedia, you have more issues than I realized. Do you have any idea where “facts” on Wikipedia come from? LOL.”
I have no reason to think that they are wrong in this case. Do you have a different source that says differently? I highly doubt it.
“I guess good old Haj Amin the butcher couldn’t differentiate between “Jews” and “Zionists” as well as you can.”
I guess your third grade education didn’t teach you that the 20’s came before the 40’s. I posted historical facts why this guy became Antisemitic in the 20’s and that was because of Zionism.
And thank you for proving that Zionism was one of the main causes of the holocaust, due to the Mufti.
Lakewood Fellow -“The British only grudgingly wrote the Balfour Declaration due to the pressure the Zionists put on them, and because they felt it would further their relationship with the Wilson administration who’s top aides were Zionists. It would not have happened without the Zionists”
The fact is the British Gov. did do it. No Gov. who hates Jews would do such a thing, pressure or Not.
“The British didn’t write it due to any love of Jews and it doesn’t follow that they would have been happy to let masses of Jews emigrate to their colonies when every other country on earth found a pretense not too.”
Stop comparing between their own country and Palestine. Palestine meant nothing to the English. They would have let in a lot more, otherwise they would have had this policy a long time before ’39. The reason historically to deny the immigration was only because of Arab opposition – due to Zionism. You can tell yourself any lie you want, but the historical truth speaks for itself!
2scents -“Health, it does not make sense that she should be aware of the DNR, I believe that there are more than three residents living in the facility. what business is it for the nurse if the person has a DNR or not so that she should be aware of this.
I think that you are to say something that is far fetched.
When asked if she cares about the PT, she states yes, when asked so dont you help the PT, she replies that this is why she is calling 911.
I have attended many codes in similar facilities. Never has any of the staff had any knowledge if the PT has a DNR or not.”
It is not far fetched at all. Maybe this pt. was under her care and she was familiar with what was in her chart.
truthsharer -“I love when ignorant people try to quote Google searches.”
C’mon, can’t you do better than this as a defense for your Idol of Zionism?
ifti99 -“Health: Did you ever get a secular education? Ever study history? Ever read a secular book?”
Yes, I do have a secular education and that’s why I know the facts from the Zionist fiction.
“Forgive me, but you sound like an Arab. Everything you don’t agree with must be “Zionist Propaganda”. Try and read a few books my friend, instead of cutting and pasting from some website that you found that justifies your narrow minded viewpoint.”
You see you couldn’t even comprehend what I wrote before, but nothing came from any website on either side, only historical facts. I’m sorry that the truth hurts, but I understand why you are in Denial! And the difference between me and an arab is I hate Zionism & they hate Judaism and Zionism.
“And BTW. I’m still waiting for you to explain how Zionists caused Chelminicki and the holocaust. Please explain. Everyone here would LOVE to read your views on this topic.”
Now you are delusional – I never posted such a thing!
eXISTENTIALFISH – While you might be happy what they are doing -you are one individual. The Gedolim represent the rest of the Charedim and they said this Gov. is intolerable.
Lakewood Fellow -“So you beleive that the British would have been happy to open their borders to masses of Jews if not for the fact that the Arabs were opposed???”
This wasm’t my opinion. I just stated facts. I know it’s hard for you deal with the truth since your whole life you’re living with Zionist lies!
“If that’s the case why didn’t America or any other country for that matter open their borders??
I guess it feels good to believe that we live in a world that likes Jews and were we are safe but the reality is otherwise…”
I never said the British liked the Jews. It’s a Halacha -“Eisav Soney L’yaacov”. I’ll tell you more facts -it was the English who made the Balfour declaration. If the British hated the Jews that much they would have never made such a thing. So it stands to reason (common sense) that the British would never have imposed such immigration restriction in Palestine if Not for the arabs position.
Again, the arabs hatred that they opposed immigration in Palestine was only because of their hatred towards Zionism.
I know the truth is hard to swallow, but this is still the truth, no matter how brainwashed you and others are!
Sam2 -“Health: When you say that we should declare Israel “Apartheid” you are throwing in your lot with the worst of the Sonei Yisrael anti-Semites out there. That is a claim made solely by people who want to distort facts and would love to see you fall just as quickly as any other Jew.”
It’s possible it’s a lie, but we can’t be silent about Charedim abuse.
“Not only is it a blatant lie, it is a claim made only by those who wish our utter and complete destruction.”
I don’t want the destruction of Israel, not necessarily even of Zionism, but of the current Gov. there.
Past Govs. were bearable, even possible to live with until Moshiach, but not this one. Even if they implement 10% of what they say they are going to do – is Not tolerable.
How does the MO community, which you are a part of, justify joining the likes of Zionists like Lapid to hurt Charedim and destroy a lot of the Jewish (Halachic) face of the Medina?
Mods – I must apologize for this very long post, but I feel the Zionist propaganda being posted here is Anti-Torah/Anti-Yiddishkeit. There are so many “Frum” posters here spewing the lies of the Zionists -I felt the need to bring out the Truth -once and for all.
I’m Not NK, but am against Zionism (Eg. Brisk, Satmar). I am not bringing any quotes from their website (NK) only from historical websites/encyclopedias. This Avodah Zora (Zionism) has creeped into regular Yidden who believe in Hashem and keep his Mitzvos.
I’m not claiming Antisemitism in the arab/muslim world started with Zionism, but with the advent of Zionism it increased a million fold in the Muslim world.
truthsharer -“It is the definition of idiocy to state that the cause of Arab hatred of Jews is Zionism. It is also playing into the Jew hater’s hands. It’s a terrible shame that many of you stopped your education at third grade. You have a very dangerous viewpoint, one that can kill.”
(In my head, I’m using much worse and much harsher language. Unfortunately, the tuchis kicking you deserve won’t be allowed to be posted and it’s not my job to educate you. I just hope you don’t kill yourself when you decide to take action on your misguided views.)”
ifti99 -“Some of the points get silier and silier. Did the Zionists trigger gezeirus tach v’tat? How about the holocaust? If you ever studied history in school (something I have my doubts on), you would know that the Christian and Moslem countries have done a bang up job of raping, pillaging and murdering Jews for hundreds of years. Now, there is finally a country that will defend our rights. A country that will deter Moslem attacks. A country that you had very little to do with building. And you malign it at every opportunity, while enjoying the umbrella of its’ religious security. Think things are better elsewhere? Try France, where wearing a yarmulke in the streets is a sakanas nephashos. Or Greece, where neo-nazis march openly. Or one of the Arab countries that hate your very existence.
Instead of hakaras hatov, you spit on Zionists. Attitudes like this led to the destruction of bayis sheni.”
Lakewood Fellow -“You are missing the point: i think it would have given the Jews a place to run to. In fact the Jews that were in Eretz Yisroel weren’t harmed by the Nazis. Only the European yeshivas and Jewry was. Again, read a little history.
“You mean to tell me that Israel/Palestine opened up their borders during WW2? No, actually the Zionists told the English not to let the European Jews in.”
Of course it didn’t it was controlled by the British who cared about Jewish life as much as the Americans-which was not at all. As far as the second part of the quote above; that is simply a distortion of what happened, there was a limited amount of visas being offered by the British and the Zionists pushed for Zionists to get as many as they could- they didn’t encourage the British to not let yidden in to eretz yisroel the British didn’t want too because they like the Americans didn’t give a hoot about the Jews.
Actually Israel is the only country were a Religious Jew who is being prosecuted can run too and be granted citizenship and be allowed to stay in , with no questions asked simply by virtue of being a Jew.”
rebdoniel -“Those promoting an uber-technological utopian revolution should probably have their clorazil dosages adjusted.
ifti99 -“And, today, Israel is the most dangerous and deadly country for a Jew to live in. “
Congratulations! You win the award for the dumbest post of the day!
rabbiofberlin -“The remarks of ‘ah talmid’ are simply a lie. Contrary to what he said, the Zionists begged jews from Europe to come to israel. Few listened. The reamrk about a cow and a European jew was said by one Zionist (Marxist btw) leader and it is being trumpeted by anti-zionists since then, while ignoring theri own vile anti-zionist virulent propaganda.”
Above are all the lying Zionist propaganda.
Here is the Truth:
From a historical document on the Web:
“What was the McDonald White Paper of 1939?
Arabs and Jews were called by Britain in 1939 for a conference where they were to discuss different issues relating to each other. The Arab and Jewish delegations came together to look for a solution to their internal differences in the Round Table Conference in 1939, a meeting which is also known as The St. James Conference. Chaim Weizmann came as a representative of Jews with groups of both Zionist and non-Zionist agencies while the Arab delegation came under the supervision of Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini and also included the renowned al-Nashashibi family. Apart from the Palestinian Arabs, the conference was also attended by the delegations of other Arab countries like Syria, Transjordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Egypt.
The conference took off with a bad start. The Arab delegates refused to recognize the authenticity of the Jewish agency and therefore denied the direct and formal meeting with Jewish representatives. Resultantly, the British took up negotiating with each party individually and when both these would not agree to the same terms, the British formed the final policy itself.
Named after the British Colonial Secretary Malcolm McDonald, McDonald White Paper is also known as The British White Paper of 1939 and Parliamentary Document 6019, issued as a result of the St. James Conference by the British. The conference failed to produce the desired results of bringing peace in Palestine; therefore, the British adopted a new policy to handle the drastic situation prevailing in the region.
The 1939 White Paper laid out permanent limitation on Jewish immigration. It allowed the entrance of 75,000 Jewish immigrants over a period of five years, after that, the immigration would need Arab consent. Although McDonald White Paper laid out lenient strategies for the Arabs and Jews were agitated over it, but Arabs still objected to it, stating that it does not imply the formation of an all-Arab state which was unacceptable to them.
The key provisions laid out in the McDonald White Paper of 1939 were:
It is the not the will of the British to form a Jewish state in Palestine.
The Palestinian territories lying West of the Jordan River were to be considered excluded from the decrees of the McMahon correspondence.
After the interim period, British forces two independent states in Palestine of Arabs and Jews, sharing a government in a way where the interests of both the nations are safeguarded.
Transfer of the Arab land to the Jews in most of the regions of the country is to be severely controlled.
Keeping in view the Arab apprehension regarding the Jewish immigration, the five year allowance of 75,000 Jews in Palestine was implemented so that the population of Jews in Palestine remains under one-third of the total.
From the start of the World War II till the end of the mandate, the White Paper remained the basis to set out British policies and all other stood irrelevant. Jews in Palestine as well as in the rest of the places were outraged, considering The White Paper a betrayal by the British. Therefore, right with the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, the decrees of the White Paper were rescinded.”
So you see that the British policies were based on them listening to the Arabs which included Jewish immigration to Palestine. Who was the leader of the Arabs? The Mufti.
Why was this Mufti so Antisemitic? Because he was Antizionism and the proof is the next article:
From Wikipedia: The Mufti – From as early as 1920, in order to secure the independence of Palestine as an Arab state he actively opposed Zionism, and was implicated as a leader of a violent riot that broke out over the establishment of a national home for the Jewish people in Palestine.[5] Al-Husseini was sentenced to ten years imprisonment, but was pardoned by the British.[6] From 1921 to 1937[7] al-Husseini was the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, using the position to promote Islam and rally a non-confessional Arab nationalism against Zionism.[8]
GAW -“And since that is what is planned, you should have no problems.”
I honestly don’t know where you are coming from. This is only planned after they go to the IDF, which most Charedim won’t do.
Here is a post from “ah talmid” about their plans for the Charedim:
“So, in fact, civilian service is NOT an option for yeshiva students (unless the IDF decides it has enough yeshiva talmidim drafted and it at its own discretion decides to allow a specific yeshiva bochor do civilian service rather than army service.) And the proposed law states that 2/3 of Chareidim serving must be in the army and not in civilian service.”
benignuman -“You really want the UN and the US to impose sanctions on Israel? You want Jews to suffer????
Please tell me that was just a joke in poor taste.”
This is No joke. The way it is right now – the New Gov., acc. to the Labor leader, have plans to make many people in that country suffer and I believe her. So it’s not just the Charedim. These people are elitists, a remnant of the Russian Communist Dictatorship (similar to). So if they actually go ahead with their plans and Jews there start to suffer and it doesn’t even have to be Charedim necessarily, yes, we Jews in the “Galut” should Not sit idly by and do nothing. We should use any means at our disposal to stop this Israeli Gov., and this includes pushing our Gov. to support sanctions against Israel.
truthsharer -“Health, where exactly did MDD state anything about his feelings about Charedim?”
In his post to me full of Gibberish.
daniela -“My opinion (I know Health will grill me for speaking of situations I don’t know, and in this case, he would be right) is that the employee, after being treated like sub-garbage for who knows how long, was beyond humanity, beyond common sense, even beyond self-interest and self-protection, she was like a broken robot blabbing nonsense”
I mean you can sit and speculate all you want, as long as you realize you turned this into a novel; none of your posts are even close to non-fiction.
“She does not really say, she keeps saying “ummm…” “no one…” “not at this time…” (?!) At a point she talks to someone else in the room (not clear whom) and asks to get someone (inintelligible, we may infer some sort of supervisor, but this is pure speculation) and says something about the dispatcher’s insistance stressing her.
No word about a DNR and not even about informal statements from the patient. Also, the fire dept have confirmed there was no DNR on file with them.”
The point being was she never said there is No DNR -so a good possibility is that she knew about the DNR from the family and therefore did nothing. The FD never (almost never) has any DNR’s -they wait for s/o at the facility to give it to them before they honor it.
Lakewood Fellow -I honestly didn’t know that there are Jews here like you who are drunk on the Zionist Kool Aid!
“Do you think countries like turkey would welcome Jewish immigrants from all over the world and give them a place to live??”
Yes, I do. Many Jews did settle here during their reign.
“Do you think in a situation like WW2 any other country would open its borders and offer citizenship to anyone who is Jewish?”
You mean to tell me that Israel/Palestine opened up their borders during WW2? No, actually the Zionists told the English not to let the European Jews in.
“Do you not see a compelling argument that if many of those Yidden who were killed had had a country they could run too that would have let them in and protect them as citizens during WW2 they would have had a better chance of survival???”
And which country was/is that? Israel seems to be the last country to take in Religious Jews. Fact is – they took in the Yemenites to Shmad them. That is their whole purpose – to Shmad Yiddishkeit. Just because you believe their lies -doesn’t mean most Frum Jews do!
The Zionists are just a continuation of failed communism. That was also started by Jews looking to stop the persecution of Jews in Europe and then Hitler and Stalin came to power, which were the worst Jew-haters since the beginning of this world.
If you think the State of Israel is your salvation -think again. It’s only G-d and this Medina is a thorn in his eyes.
The one Zecus these Freye had was they had a religious status- quo and they supported Limud Hatorah somewhat. With this about to be gone -I actually don’t hate them, like the Mizrachists & Chilonim hate us – the Charedim, I Pity Them!
mdd – Ah, the true feelings of a Zionist towards Frum Jews.
aproudbyg – If you live in NY call OHEL ASAP. If not call them anyway – maybe they can get in touch with Askonim and/or Rabbis in your town. Washing your mouth out with soap is plain abuse.
You’re so used to it -you don’t realize it’s abuse. You need help and fast. Stop feeling guilty and/or protecting her/them – it’s your parents’ illness -it has nothing to do with you.
GAW -“I respectfully disagree. Any Charaidi can get out of their “situation” (as per the anti-Arab, Anti Charaidi seculars) by “working”, while an Arab will always be an Arab.”
No, you’re reading the situation wrong. If the Chilonim’s only prob with the Charedim was working -they could pass legislation allowing them to work without army time. They picked the draft -figuring that the Charedim won’t bite. I’m sure most won’t. You think that they don’t know that the army truly doesn’t want them?So now they can treat them like second-class citizens and say “You see – if only”. The Goyim did this throughout the Golus. They used to call them blood libels. Why was the Goyim always doing the blood libel -why not simply say -“Kill the Jew”? Sometimes they did this, but for the most part not. Why? Because they were afraid the good Goyim would stand up against them.
To start treating the Charedim like the Chilonim believe – that they are second-class openly -Israel is afraid of the world reaction.
That’s why I’m calling on the US to let the world give them the title of Apartheid and start to levy sanctions, because I see through the two-faced guys like Lapid who claims the New Gov. is Not Anti-Charedi. They are simply hateful, spiteful people!
ifti99 -“More importantly, “Who exactly is going to defend you like in 1929 and 1936 when the Arabs decide to massacre you”? Or is your decision to repeat the holocaust?”
Yes, Moshiach is coming and we will have nothing to be afraid of.
The quicker the Medina dissolves -the quicker Moshiach will come.
Your post sounds like you don’t believe in Moshiach and if that’s the correct interpretation then you are Kofer like most Zionists.
2scents -“That no one knows how to do it.”
I was asking what reason did she give to the dispatcher that she wasn’t willing to do CPR?
Mr. Doniel -“They’ve made themselves into a fifth column, and are maybe half a step better than the Arabs when it comes to that.”
Wrong; I don’t think they are liked a drop better. They hate them both, but the arabs they are still scared about how far they can discriminate against them. But right now it’s open season for the Charedim.
Mr. Berlin -“The aid that the US gives israel is a very small part of the annual budget (about 2 %) and the total cut of american aid would barely be noitced by israel.”
I’m also for the US to stop preventing Israel from being declared Apartheid. It’s time to start with sanctions against Apartheid Israel.
The Kanoi Next Door -“As part of his plan to eliminate the national debt, Rand Paul advocates cutting any and all monetary aid to foreign countries. This would be particularly disastrous for Israel, whose army is largely funded the US.”
I already mentioned this idea. Now to get the Frum US communities to back this guy.
2scents -“She had a few other reasons for not doing CPR. none had anything to do with the PT having a DNR.”
And what reason did she give the dispatcher? I didn’t listen to the tape.
Josh31 -“The $3B from USA is specifically military assistance, of which 74% is to be spent for hardware / services from US contractors. The aid provides equipment, Israel provides the soldiers.”
Yep, and when they draft the Charedim they won’t have any weapons left to give them because hopefully we won’t give them a penny anymore. I think the high and mighty Chilonim/Mizrachists won’t be so and mighty anymore.
And the next thing we should do is pressure our politicians to stop defending Israel. The next time the world bodies get together and attack Israel for being Apatheid -the US should go along. And maybe the US should support the Palestinians bid to go to the world court and have sanctions given towards them.
Enough with them always being defended by the US. Time for Israel to get a taste of their own medicine.
Wake up slumbering Frum Jews in the US! Don’t pretend that Israel can do what they want – when they want to your Frum brothers in Israel. This is Shmad. Once upon a time Israel was a Shogegg -what they are doing now is B’maizid. We can stop them, but we have to wake up first!
mdd -“Kanoi, he promised forever and no matter the numbers?”
So the US promised forever the 3 Billion? Time to stop the cash cow to Israel. I think if the Frum Americans start demanding No more aid to Israel the politicians who don’t want to give foreign aid anyway will get more powerful and we can change the law.