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2scents -“She did not mention that the PT had a DNR,”
I wasn’t there and neither were you -so maybe she did tell this to EMS when they arrived?
“and it was not present, that is why EMS did resuscitate.
If they had a DNR then it should have been present, no DNR present CPR should not be withheld.”
Yes, and this is why EMS attempted resuscitation.
But, my point was -if she knew that there was one – the moral thing was for her to withhold CPR. Not like you keep claiming that she was Immoral. It was EMS who actually did the wrong thing, but they can’t be blamed because noone at that time handed them a DNR.
aproudbyg -“at night i didnt get sleep because mostly every night they would be screaming at eachother and i could hear things being thrown and they kept bringing up divorce…and i hat to admit it and it makes me cry at this moment but at times in my childhood i would listen to their fighting in my bed and cry to Hashem and beg Him that if it would help for my parents to divorce so i could be normal.”
Unfortunately, a lot of sick marriages don’t divorce. Birds of a feather flock together. The people who convinced my wife to leave me have worse marriages than I ever had. They also abuse their kids, which me and my wife never did. The reason they don’t divorce is simply because they have every excuse in the world for their behavior, but once they divorce the world sees what they are and the most important thing for them is their outside appearances.
daniela -“No, the company covered their behind long ago. You can’t expect Brookdale (I had not noticed it was them, I had the impression it was some small company operating one or two homes) to be this foolish. Their guidelines no doubt stated that in an emergency, employees should call 911 and wait with the resident. Gamanit heard that on CBS (see above) but it is quite obvious, given that Brookdale are no amateurs. These guidelines, when brought to the courtroom or to the case study at the next medical ethical conference, do not mean one should stand by, but rather, administering help as appropriate. We are well aware the employee might have been told by her supervisor – or more likely, lead into believing – that she should do absolutely nothing.”
The last part is probably what happened. How much will the parent company distance themselves from this with lies – all depends on the consequences. In this case, the liklihood of the family suing the company or some agency talking about this in some conference is slight to none. So I think the outcome will be she will get her job back. The company is only interested in themselves and right now their biggest concern is the News Media. I think this will die down and the company will keep things the way they are or change their policies so noone can claim they meant do nothing.
aproudbyg – A lot of us have gone through the same thing. One thing I learned from my parents -how never to treat my kids. I’m not excusing her behavior, but unfornunately this is quite common. One more issue in the Frum community that has been swept under the rug.
Try finding a mentor; speak to your Rov, if you have one. Also, call Ohel and speak to their Helpline and ask for help.
zahavasdad -“By forcing the Chilonim to leave you will have a welfare state with no producers only takers. And the takers are already very poor and starvation is faily common. You cant have a Zebulin / Yissochar arrangement without Zebulin”
I posted that the 3 Billion that the US gives them should now go to the Charedim. And the rest will be made up from the Frum Jews that live in the Galut (like the Israelis say).
Until this election, I was never upset that my income taxes went to Israel. After this so-called election where the Shmad isn’t just on “sharing the burden” for them to make the Charedim join the army; -you’re correct that the Shmad is to destroy Frum Torah life and any financial support they receive from the State.
To all the Zionists here in the CR: You all have been screaming Chillul Hashem and what Not against the Charedim in Israel for taking and Not giving -for Not Sharing the Burden – what do you say about the Israelis not sharing in my burden of my taxes?
I don’t think the Frum communities in the US have yet to realize what they are truly doing/going to do to the Charedim. When they wake up, hopefully they will start screaming at our politicians not to give our hard earned money that our Gov. takes from us in taxes to Israel – after all they don’t Share our Burden in paying taxes!
shnitzy -“You’re a dentist?!”
I know it’s late at nite, but Reread my post!
PBA -“akuperma: you may be correct about the rest of it, but it is way wishful thinking that the chareidim or anyone can end the war with the arabs except by dismantling the state and agreeing to live in the dar al islam.”
Exactly! The State should be given to Turkey. The “Frum” settlers will stay, not the so-called “Frum” like Bayit Hayehudi. The Lapidniks will move to Uganda. Turkey won’t take the Jews in their army – I doubt they take Jews now. And the US can now give some of 3 Billion to support the Jewish community living in EY.
(Btw, the Israelis and others screaming “share the burden”, have no problem Schnorring from the US, but are appalled that people who refuse to go to the IDF are taking social programs. Hypocrisy at it’s finest. What have they done for the US. Who needs another so-called democracy in the Middle East?) If some Freye can’t move out, eg. too old, they can have some of this money. I agree with Deri. The main thing right now is to break this coalition. Lapid will go the same way as his Dad and Bennett will be dragged along.
talmud – I’ll drink to that! L’chaim!
sharp -“Health: Are you ok with that?”
I’m not ok with what a lot of people do. But the fact that people don’t take of their teeth is good for the Dentist’s business.
And when people don’t take care of the rest of their body is good for my business.
2scents -“Legally, I dont think she did anything wrong, since she is not obligated to hand over the phone to anyone else, but morally I think she is very wrong.”
Why is it Morally wrong? There was a DNR.
From above:
“the family (management is silent about that) states there is a DNR and was on file at the home;”
daniela -“the one and only monster is the nurse, now lawyers and PR have got to get busy, so that no long-term damage to the brandname should occur.”
Here a quote from AP
“Brookdale Senior Living, which owns the facility, initially said its employee acted correctly by waiting until emergency personnel arrived. But late Tuesday, it issued a new statement saying the employee had misinterpreted the company’s guidelines and was on voluntary leave while the case is investigated, the Associated Press reported.””
Perhaps she is the one telling the truth and the company is just doing CYA?
“As I knew all along! The employee “misinterpreted” the written guidelines. And now is on “voluntary” leave (unpaid?)
As for the prospects of her keeping her job, which supposedly was the reason she refused to perform a CPR, we will see.”
Maybe she didn’t at all? If they fire her to be their scapegoat -hopefully she has written documentation that that’s their policy and she can sue them.
In Israel -lots don’t brush their teeth.
zvei dinim -“Rav Elyashiv, Rav Moshe Shternbuch, Rav Nisim Karelitz and Rav Yisroel Belsky and many others hold that cigarettes are Asur on Pesach. In the Litvishe Velt (at least in E.Y.) almost no one smokes Pesach.”
I didn’t know that. Why do they Assur on Pesach – because of Chometz or because it’s Yom Tov? Do they Assur also all the time?
So Yichusdik is wrong. This Rabbi is doing the smokers a Chessed because he is helping them Not to do added Issurim.
zvei dinim -“You cannot do any act that allows or encourages a Sakana, even if the other person holds it’s Mutar. In fact one is obligated to be Mechalel Shabbos to save someone from danger, and even if it’s against that persons will, and even if the risk is only small, and even if it’s only a long term risk!
In reality what this Baal Hamachsir is (unintentionally) doing is aiding Retzicha, and helping cause families of Almanos and Yesomim.”
Let’s get real here. And you know I’m in the medical field and always post against lighting up.
This guy isn’t doing anything wrong. These people will smoke on Pesach anyway. All he’s doing is making a quick buck on some Machmirim that think everything is a Chashash Chometz. It’s Muttar M’Ikar Hadin for a few reasons on Pesach. This has nothing to do whether he thinks smoking is ok or not!
daniela -“Health true, she does not have a legal requirement (an obligation in criminal law) to listen to instructions from EMT services in California, but if it goes to a hearing, she might lose her licence if she is a RN or receive other sanctions. A medical professional and even a medical student is supposed to get involved whenever no better-qualified professional is on the scene. And she can not argue she felt that resuscitation was not the gold standard of care for that particular patient, she never said so in the call. Also, EMT judged CPR to be gold standard care for the patient, even though a number of minutes had elapsed, and I doubt there was a medical doctor on the EMT crew, so, I would think they strictly followed protocols, EBM and whatnot.”
This whole paragraph goes off on such a tangent -I don’t get your point. This will never go to a hearing and even if it did -her defense is unshakable -she is following her employer’s orders which is in congruence with the facility’s Medical protocols.
I repeat from my posts before -she is NOT under the Medical Authority of EMS.
“Torah? I am sorry, this is not the basis of the law of the land – we wish!”
I was refering to your belief that her actions’ were immoral. They were Not immoral, nor were they illegal.
I am quite puzzled about all your posts here in this topic. Almost every single one of them you post like this is the law and you are the expert. I really haven’t found one of your posts yet that you were correct in Medical law. Perhaps you need to research this topic throughly before you post?
The nurse acted correctly morally and legally given the circumstances.
daniela -“Health, maybe I am wrong, but I believe that stating no one else was around, won’t hold, because in such a facility, many people are usually around (including the seniors themselves), and also because she did not reply the dispatcher that “no one else is around” but rather kept mentioning the policy (imagine this recording played over and over to a jury, and also consider the fact that her voice sounds cold).”
That was a question I posed to 2scents and he said there were others around.
“Resuscitation amounts to assault if a DNR exists: EMT personnel would have taken her vital signs and waited a bit.”
No it isn’t -if they are not aware of one or they are not shown one. No, they wouldn’t -they treat right away. The DNR at this point is irrevelant.
“Even if there is no DNR but it’s a senior person and we start resuscitation after 7+min, it can be argued that CPR should not be attempted at all or should only be attempted for a short period; instead they kept working on her until she could be transported to hospital, somehow alive.”
You say “it can be argued” -you should write I’m arguing -noone else would ever argue your so-called point. And many EMS crews that are paramedic staffed will pronounce death in the field after an unsucessful resuscitation attempt.
“Again, if a DNR existed, those who pull such a trick don’t get away with it, not anywhere but most certainly not in California.”
They get away with it if they are not aware of one or they are not shown one.
“So the nurse has now to deny she was aware a DNR existed, even if one is now produced (would not be surprised). Glad I am not in her shoes.”
She doesn’t have to deny or agree to anything. If she was aware of one and had access to it -I’m sure she would have given it to EMS or advised the EMS crew where to pick it up, eg. -“In the pt’s chart on the ground floor”.
“2cents there are situations in which medical professionals have not offered “futile” resuscitation without living wills of any sort and I know some of those cases went to litigation and the medical professionals won. If the prospects are bleak, and if nowhere did the patient express they want to try everything until the very end, one can defend their actions in court. But if resuscitation is appropriate at +7 it surely was appropriate at +3 and earlier. Everyone knows that (especially given that the dispatcher is saying so right now) and someone with training knows that even better.”
Again you’re confusing two things. I’m not about to try to explain the difference to you in detail -suffice it to say in the first case they were the medical authority -they have the legal right to decide what or how much, if any, resuscitation is needed.
EMS works on Medical direction off-line (protocols) and on-line. The protocols don’t differentiate between times of arrival in cases of arrest.
“ubiquitin I am not sure if #2 is correct within California legal framework. I believe it isn’t. The facility may not offer CPR trained personnel on site, nor does the dry cleaner, but still if we R”L get sick at the dry cleaner, and they call 911, they are expected to follow instructions, even though they are unqualified.”
Hardly anyone follows EMS dispatcher’s instructions. Perhaps they should though.
2scents -“Then she says that at this time there is no one that is willing to help, therefore she will not hand over the phone or let the dispatcher talk to anyone. Interesting how she knew this without even asking anyone”
Why are you implying that she is lying? Maybe all that were around were seniors and staff. She knows the staff won’t do it and perhaps she is well aquainted with the seniors and know they won’t either. You can assume anything negative you want, but it doesn’t mean it’s true.
daniela -“They may well have a policy not to offer care and to call 911, but then she was supposed to follow the dispatcher’s instructions.”
She has no legal requirement to listen to any dispatcher. Neither does any bystander (except in two states where this is required by law to render assistance). Most people when asked to do CPR by dispatchers don’t do it.
Morality is based on the Torah. The Torah does Not require you to jeopardize your job or for the company to risk a lawsuit -so these people are Not immoral in the Torah’s eyes. The Gov. who forced these policies are immoral in the Torah’s eyes.
2scents -“she refused to hand over the phone or ask if anyone else is willing to do CPR. This is taking the companies policy to far.”
Who said that there was anyone else around?
You sure make a lot of assumptions to find fault with this nurse.
“The fact that the EMS crew did try to resuscitate proves that there was no DNR or else they would not do anything.”
No, it doesn’t prove one way or another. It just proves No DNR was handed to them, but perhaps there is one.
Gamanit -“I have a history/science brain.”
I never heard of such a thing. Actually I was good in all subjects, except English.
Mr. rebdoniel -“Most men, myself included, do not want to marry women who lack professional ambitions. In order to sustain a quality lifestyle, you need two incomes.”
I’ll take your post a step further. Lots of guys want a girl who’s a Prof so they can sit and learn and be supported. I want a Prof. to support me so I can sit and blog 24/6 on YWN’s CR! LOL! (;0
notasheep -“I suppose the treatise on bananas was just too academic and therefore illegible unless you work in a university…”
What are you complaining about? You should feel honored -I know I do.
From above:
“Runners up**:
~ari-free
~Health
~not a sheep”
As s/o with a Math/science brain, my writing has never been good -this is the very first time I even got mentioned as a “Runner up”!
yoya -“noone has anything to add?? 🙁 “
Why, pray tell, are you so interested in this screening?
daniela -“I do not think the lady had Alzheimer because she was living in a low-care setting.”
You got things mixed up. My reply about dementia was to 2 scents about the case I invented to him so he could understand the facility’s employee’s reaction. I did Not research the case of the news article and I have no idea about whether this pt. had dementia or not.
“The very fact that an employee called 911 suggests there is no MD on duty on the site.”
There could have been a Doc there or Not -I have no idea. 911 is called in emergencies -many times the calls come from Doctor’s offices and a Doc is there.
“It also suggests the facility does not routinely asks patients and family to either sign a DNR or express their wish to be resuscitated: with a DNR, assuming 911 is called (it is absurd as you said already, but it may well be called, just to cover their backs and document everything independently), the recording would have been different, with the nurse stating that the patient has a DNR and the document is in her hands and will be shown to EMT upon their arrival.”
Like I said I have no idea about the policies of this facility, but you cannot deduce one way or another. I think I read somewhere that the family stated the pt. did have a DNR. Anyway acc. to what I read here she was still breathing at the time of the original call -where you still have to treat. The DNR does not apply as of yet.
Let me explain you how it works in nursing homes -that I used to respond to. The care in these other facilities will be less, not more. A person starts having difficulty breathing -they call 911 -they don’t go to check the chart. If the pt. codes -yes then they go running to check the chart for a DNR because they don’t want to do CPR. If the pt has a DNR -then they don’t do anything, if Not they do start CPR.
In all liklihood, this nurse or whatever she was, in this case didn’t even know or care whether this pt. had a DNR or not.
She just was doing what she is ordered to do – A pt. has an emergency -call 911, but don’t touch the pt. The DNR in this case is Not going to prevent her from doing CPR because she isn’t doing it anyway acc. to the facility’s policy.
The reason that this case made the news, because this happens every single day across the US, is simply because of the emotional plea of the dispatcher. S/o thought the 911 tape would make a good story. It did; but what all the readers thought was this was an one time deal and therefore all the posts with their outrage. They don’t have a clue that this goes on all the time and their outrage should be at the Gov. who made the facilities have these type of policies!
SB – When you come back to the US -you can get on the right Meds for your problems and see the right Docs.
Mr. Berlin -“As far as your concern with present day Eretz Yisroel, please excuse my stupidity, but isn’t this exactly what “sharing the burden” means? The ones who espouse this view see their hardearned moeny being drained for -what they thinkj- people who don’t participate in the general welfare of the land. They are all concerned about their money, security, the sacrifices that they make and that they- in their views- others don’t share. so, your concerns about the chareidim sufferning- well, the other side that they suffer plenty with their sacrifices of money and casualties.”
The Chilonim pay taxes -this is what e/o does -it’s not called suffering. Charedim will start suffering due to the lack of basic necessities. As far as “sharing the burden” -the Charedim do more than their fair share -learning protects e/o. There would be a lot less casualties in the IDF if more people were learning, but the Chilonim and Mizrachists are ignorant in this. It’s Not my job to teach them. Maybe this guy Piron, a Rabbi, will now teach them how Torah protects as Education Minister.
And again you missed my point before -I said this “sharing the burden” is just a smoke screen to rid Israel of any Jewish religion -that’s why they want Charedim in the army to Shmad them; that’s why they want to change the marriage laws and the conversion laws. Stop being fooled by the Lapids and Bennetts, even though they are good Orators. Hitler was a great orator -it’s just PR; nothing real, just fluff. This is a war against the Torah – stop keeping your head in the sand.
GAW -“Health: With all due respect, I believe you are incorrect.”
How am I incorrect? You’re just saying that the situation changed. It might have changed due to natural occurences -so the Charedim didn’t do it to start up or force Freye to be Frum. The natural occurrence of any pop that doesn’t do birth control or abortion is to populate. When the Chilonim realized that soon the Charedim are going to have a sizable pop – what did they do? They should have worked to find common ground. But instead – while they still have a majority – they are looking for ways to illegitimize the Charedim. The whole draft business (which the army says we don’t want or need Charedim) and the marriage and Shabbos business is all to stop the Charedim and lower their standings and class.
Many countries have tried this before to Jews, eg. Germany, Russia, etc. It’s suprising that so soon after the Holocaust that Jews (Chilonim) are now doing this to other Jews (Charedim).
GAW -“Why will they suffer? They are not going to be drafted.”
Because unfortunately, some people are poor and they need social programs to survive and this will be taken away from them if they don’t sign up to the IDF. Some people don’t have the Koachos to come to the US to Schnorr. They are making some people choose between their religious convictions and putting food on the table.
GAW -“Had the Charaidim left everyone else alone, we would not be having this discussion. It is easy to say “you leave us alone, but we will still control you”. Chazal called that Midas Sedom.”
Usually your posts make sense, but in this case you’re totally off. You buy the propaganda from the Chilonim. They (Frumme) really did want to be left alone. Ben-Gurion wanted them to join the Medina at which they agreed. This means first-class citizens and Not have to go to the army and following Orthodox guidelines for marriage, conversion, divorce, etc.
The Charedim put up signs in Mae Sharim about Tzinus -this was in their neighborhood. They never were interested in forcing the Chilonim into the Torah way of life. There were never any signs in Tel- Aviv. The Chilonim & the MO saw how successful the Charedim are -married life, good kids as opposed to their lifestyle -divorce, crime, abortions, AIDS & other diseases that permeate their society. This jealousy led them to find fault with the Charedim. Eg. They never honored the dress-code in Mae Sharim saying -you can’t tell Me what to do in My country.
They are scared that soon there will be nothing left of them. Pharoh did the same thing in Egypt. Once he saw how much better the Jewish people were than Egyptians that is when the jealously came and then “Hava Neschama Lo”.
You have fallen prey to the Anti-Charedim propaganda that you experience on a daily basis -in the news and even here in YWN’s CR!
Mr. berlin -“health and all the other anti-israel posters: first of all, I have no hatred against anyone-yes, even against the anti-zionists ,as long as they don’t conspire wth our enemies like Iran.I live amongst the anti-zionists. They have their views, I have mine.”
I don’t actually know what’s in your heart, but your posts spew hatred against Anti-zionists.
“Asv far as the medinah, I said a long time ago that history will determine the winner. The Sadducees, the Karaim and others disappeared and it was rabbinic Judaism that survived. Same today. Orthodox Judaims has survived many centuries and continues to rebound. None of us will be here in a hundred years time- those living then will determine who is the winner.”
My problem is Not the outcome, but the here and now. The Charedim are going to suffer because of this Medina and it’s beyond me how the MO (who claim to be Frum) are a big part of this!
Mr. Berlin -“health- you are just proving what i said.You live in an imaginary world that looks at anything beyond your “arba amos’ as ‘treif”.”
You so did Not even begin to address my points. Perhaps you are the one in the dream world?
“It is too tiresome to regurgitate the old argument about zionism ,the medinah, the second world war…etc…I look at facts- and all within the confines of a halachic/jewish society.”
That’s right – my point wasn’t about all the old arguments – my point was what the MO’s by joining Lapid are going to do with Judaism in the here and now. You can call it a Halachic society, but shortly it won’t be. Making Gerrim acc. to reform or conservative is Not having having a Halachic society. Having ball games and the transportation to these games on Shabbos is Not having a Halachic society. I think your hatred to anything against the Medina is blinding you to the truth. I can’t have a point because look how Frum the Medina is. That Frumkeit has nothing to do with the Medina -it has to do with the Charedim in the Medina. And now all the good laws protecting Frumkeit made over the last 60 years, by the Charedim, are going to start being erased by the Lapids and the MO’s/Mizrachists like Bennett. You’ve been brainwashed way too long for you even to understand my point. But keep screaming “Fanatic” – “Iranian” or whatever, it really proves you are right. Your wonderful Zionist philosophy that Zionism is part of Torah is starting to unravel in front of your eyes and you can’t believe it!
realtalk – I think that if s/o has a choice, not like in this case, but their decision won’t affect them either way, yes they should be denounced if they decided Not to help for No reason!
ROB -“I used to be a regular poster on this site but the coffee room has been taken over by extremist posters, who are more in tune with Iran than with the Jewish people”
See that’s your mistake. People who have a Mesorah against Zionists in your mind is Iran. Actually this Mesorah is based from Gedolims’ Shittos. Yes, some in the Klal did go for the Medina, but Most Gedolim were against it, even if they joined it like the Agudah.
And you say we have to belong to the Jewish people. I assume you mean the Majority of the Jewish people. No, we won’t give into Buses on Shabbos and Goyim getting getting papers saying they are Jewish or citizens of Israel or people getting married against Halacha. The Jewish people and the Torah are one. So we are the Jewish people, not the Zionists. We have not sold our principles like the MO’s who have joined forces with Lapid in destroying (at least trying to) the Jewish face of Israel. They think being in power is more important than the Torah. They will learn the hard way.
zahavasdad -“The African Americans worked”
It’s quite obvious you didn’t grow up in the inner city like I did.
Your posts are so typical of liberalism in this country – they read their lib books and other media in school and then they think it’s reality. Sorry, liberalism is the farthest from Truth.
Mobe613 -“The real chutzpah is that the haredim are acting like they are surprised by the way they are being treated.”
Noone is surprised. At least now the whole world will know how Israel is Apartheid. After they enact this legislation -watch how the US cuts off their funding. Perhaps with the less funding -they’ll have to make the army smaller? They are just cutting off their nose in spite of their face.
Mobe613 -“The charedim have brought this all on themselves”
You’re right – they should never have taken anything from the Zionists.
“and in the process have created one of the biggest chil hashems in history.”
You don’t know what a Chillul Hashem is.
“There is absolutely no basis for not serving in the army.”
There is absolutely no basis for serving.
“But it is obvious, and has always been obvious, that the chareidim just dont want to serve.”
How did you figure this one out?
And the reason is because going to the army is against the Torah.
“Charedim should have approached the secular like chabad, with warmth and understanding and tried to be mekarev them, instead they just pushed them away by being selfish and worrying only about themselves.”
Who do you think all these Kiruv orgs are for – Charedim?
“They claim that they are protecting the state by learning, but you would have to be a delusional charedi to think that is an argument that would actually convince anyone that isnt charedi. Who did they think they were dealing with? They finally pushed things too far and everyone else is fed up and now they will get what they have brought upon themselves.”
They are -whether some Zionists understands this or not.
GAW -“Health: Where is the “I told you so”?”
/;) – (:o
ZD -“Without a Passport you cannot enter any other country (You might be able to leave Israel, but you can go anywhere)”
This actualy is No problem -they have an undergound -black -market for this. It will be a New major business for Frum Yidden, but the social programs might hurt some Charedim.
It’s time to start supporting the ones that call Israel -Apartheid. Enough with the US giving them money every year.
Time to start a petition against financial support for them in the US.
charliehall -“I can’t believe that in an Orthodox Jewish site someone is making apologies for one of the worst anti-Semites of the 20th century, a man who was a Nazi collaborator and war criminal.”
Reread my post -I never apologized for him. What I said was he became that way because he was incited by the Zionist Movement!
ifti99 -“No, I’m serious. So, according to you, does any nation have a din of malchus? Do feel any obligation to pay taxes or observe the laws of the country you live in? Or not?”
I don’t know, but what I do know is that Medinas Yisroel -aka the “Medina” definitely does Not have this Din!
charliehall -“The Turkish Republic has mandatory military service today.”
I haven’t spoken to you in a couple of years – did you retire? Ah -the Memories.
I had this discussion with MDD previously.
First, I asked does Turkey draft Jews nowadays?
Second, I still don’t think if they had EY now they would draft the Jews there because they might Not be considered loyal subjects.
daniela -“If we are aware that someone’s children have signed a DNR which does not faithfully represent the person’s wishes, but rather the family’s wishes, we know what theoretically we have to do – according to the law of the land. We have to let authorities know (right now, not when the person is in arrest). Secular law is far from perfect but it has provisions for these situations. If the patient is fully of sound mind, he/she will state or write down his wishes for medical care and EOL in front of the required witnesses; otherwise the court will appoint a guardian who will be in charge of deciding,”
C’mon now -let’s say she has Dementia so the kids are her legal guardians’. And she didn’t write a statement prior to her dementia about her future desires regarding health -care. But the Rov still says No DNR -so my case stands. You are looking to Nit-pick – WHY?
Ver Bin Ich -“Much of today’s medicine is practiced and provided with only one goal in mind – don’t sue me. There are millions of dollars wasted on unnecessary tests, examinations, and screenings for the simple purpose of not worrying about getting sued. A disproportionate amount of health care providers’ time is spent on DOCUMENTATION – to cover themselves in case of a suit.”
You’re right it is. And this is the Gov.’s fault. That’s why it’s just being PC making something called Obamacare -promising something for nothing. Nothing in this world is for free.
If you want to make affordable medical care -the country must revamp the Suing laws! So right now the only thing you can cut to make it cheaper is the medical care itself. Need a MRI? Wait 6 months like they do in some parts of Canada.
daniela -“(a) No person who in good faith, and not for
compensation, renders emergency medical or nonmedical care at the
scene of an emergency shall be liable for any civil damages resulting from any act or omission. The scene of an emergency shall not include emergency departments and other places where medical care is usually offered.”
There it is in black & white -“other places where medical care is usually offered.” You don’t think the lawyer sharks will argue that an assisted living building is a place where medical care is offered?
“This subdivision applies only to the medical, law enforcement, and emergency personnel specified in this chapter.
(2) Except for those persons specified in subdivision (a), no
The scene of an emergency shall not include emergency departments and other places where medical care is usually offered.”
Again black & white.
“This subdivision shall not be construed to alter existing protections from liability for licensed medical or other
personnel specified in subdivision (a) or any other law.”
“The policy in USA (and most countries) is that once you call EMS, they take over the care, and one can not cancel a call (i.e. change their mind about no longer having a desire for assistance). So the nurse would have been protected: not only by the “samaritan” provision but also by the fact she would have been “following orders”. She could have argued that she called 911 according to protocol and afterwards they directed her to do so-and-so, which EMS can do even in a doctor’s office (let alone in an assisted living facility), until care is handed over to the emergency dept of a hospital.”
I’m sorry – Miss legal student or lawyer -you know nothing about Medical law. The only one that this employee has to listen to is her company. There is no magic. EMS takes over care of the pt. -they have No legal right over any other Medical person. They can’t give orders to Doctors or anyone else. She is under her own Medical Authority. Once she breaks that – she can be sued for anything under the sun and her insurance won’t cover her -since she broke the policy on purpose. I suggest you read up on EMS and the law. There is a legal group called Page, Wolfberg & Wirth, LLC, that specialize in this type of law, that you can contact.
They have a website.
Right now, you are bordering on Malpractice. This is just an anon. forum, but I hope in real life you don’t give this as legal advice!
“If some aggressive lawyers’ office contacts the deceased’s family and they smell the money and sue the nurse for refusing to follow the dispatcher’s orders, if this starts to get too many headlines and the assisted living facility fires her claiming she damaged their public image, it will not be me who sheds tears.”
You are in a dream world!
daniela -“The nurse would have been covered by Good Samaritan laws in regard to not being liable for damages of all sorts that arise from her intervention and had she been fired, she could have sued and likely won,”
You sound like a lawyer or legal student -which one?
No she wouldn’t be covered and I’ll show you this in my next post.
“but realistically, she would not have been fired at all in connection to the incident, but rather, she would have been let go with some pretext in a few weeks. Which would have been impossible to challenge and also one’s name becomes “known” and one is not offered work, and proving discrimination is next to impossible. Had she done CPR against the employer’s protocol, perhaps she was better off resigning and giving interviews to the media, which would have had good chances to land her a job at a facility with different policies – but likely, not close to home.”
She won’t find work because they all have the exact same policies.
Perhaps medical law is Not your specialty?
“I am aware that we would not be required to jeopardize our job, but still it is despicable.”
I can’t agree with your assessment of “despicable”, unless this applies to almost e/o in the US. She was prevented from helping this sick person due to the company’s policy. And these policies were created due to the Gov’s laws. You can find fault with the laws, but not with s/o who feels they must listen to these laws!
“A normal person would at the very least feel bad about it.”
And how do you know that she didn’t? Are you G-d? Are you a mind reader? So the rest that you wrote is mute.
“A 24hr button (not sure how exactly is called) is a timer which beeps an alarm after 24hr it has been operating. Staff can push a button and reset the counter. Or, if nothing is done, the machine shuts itself off after, I think, 6 or 12 more hours. This allows doctors to set up life support measures and if the patient is stabilized but has otherwise bleak prospects, the family and their rabbi can decide not to continue with efforts; if the patient looks like is responding well, he/she can stay on the respirator (or other life-support) as long as necessary. Such a device is available in Jewish hospitals but I don’t think is very common elsewhere. If the problem is unavailability of the device, a normal timer plug can help. If the problem is that staff is not going to accommodate the patient’s and family’s wishes and beliefs, there is no easy solution.”
I’m not familiar with this timer -is this something that Israeli hospitals have? Maybe the purpose of the timer is for Shabbos use of the ventilator? I don’t know what it has to do with removing a pt. from the vent. I think you are getting two things mixed up. If s/o acc. to you can’t unplug the machine because it’s killing -setting a timer is no different. And anyway if s/o doesn’t have this timer, but doesn’t want to unplug the machine -all they have to do is wait till maintenance time -where the machine is shut off and not put them back on afterwards. Maintenance is at least once a day -sometimes more.
“And please give me a break about ethical committees. Even nazis had them (and to their credit, the “program” with regards to handicapped people was shut down pretty quickly when such ethical committees objected).”
I wasn’t talking about committees. I said they learn Ethics in school. I find it ironic that a legal student or lawyer is lecturing about ethics. I personally have found lawyers and Judges to be the most unethical people around. With your comparison to the SS -this doesn’t even deserve a response.
“I was talking about medical personnel who are uncomfortable with some people’s suffering or supposed suffering – a sedated old person in an ICU does not feel pain, but is difficult to watch and is disturbing, especially for those who share a certain view of life and death”
I see nothing wrong with sedating a pt. so they don’t feel pain!
“and I was talking about medical personnel who “avoid delaying” the unavoidable, in most cases feeling good about it. By the way, “the unavoidable” is unavoidable for everyone, and no one can say how long they will live nor if we will be healthy or disabled (we can have an accident this very day) but this sobering thought does not seem to cross everyone’s mind. It should.”
I have no idea what you just posted.
2scents -“Company Policy might prohibit (remember prohibit..) from doing CPR, however being that she is a nurse and trained in resuscitation, this makes her un-human.”
I can’t agree with your assessment of “un-human”, unless this applies to almost e/o in the US. She was prevented from helping this sick person due to the company’s policy. And these policies were created due to the Gov’s laws. You can find fault with the laws, but not with s/o who feels they must listen to these laws!
I’ll give you an example. I’ll put it in your supposed line of work. You frequently are called to a house with a sick Frum elderly person. The chilren are Not Frum, but have gotten this person a DNR. You asked a Poisek, a Boki in DNR’s, and said no way is this elderly allowed to have one. You are now called by the maid for an arrest, but upon arrival you’re presented with a DNR, would you now go ahead and resuscitate? And even if you would, would you call s/o else who is afraid to be sued and their squad sued, amongst other punishments, and therefore refuses to resuscitate “un-human”?
147 -“Health:- I am in cohort with the Zionists who run & fill up the Hesder Yeshivos, and promulgate Limud haTorah.
Meanwhile, both Lapid & Bennett better begin fearing for their Olom haBo, let alone for what might transpire in the next Knesset election.
Furthermore, we Zionists are staunchly opposed to transportation on Shabbos [other than an ambulance or fire engine in case of danger to human life, as we just recently studied in 16th Perek of Tractate Shabbos, whose Siyum was this weekend], as well as no non Halachic compliant marriages, a very strong difference from Lapid’s desires.”
Hypocrisy at it’s finest! So why did the “Frum” Mizrachists vote for Bennett? He wasn’t hiding any of his plans. I think the reason is because the “Frum” Mizrachists got blinded with his “Share the burden” plan that they weren’t paying attention to anything else he was planning to do.
ifti99 -“What does that have to do with obeying the law of the land? I thought you believed in dina d’malchusa dina. Perhaps you don’t?”
You’re joking -aren’t you? Since when does a Medina based on Kefira have a Din of Malchus?!?!
Avi K -“Any Arab violence after the advent of zionism (which predates ’48) can be attributed to it.” How about “any Arab violence after you were born can be attributed to you”? Just as logical.”
It’s logical because there is no other reason to say why all of a sudden there was a tremendous increase in hatred over the last time period since Zionism raised it’s ugly head. Also, you don’t know history -the Mufti of Yerushayim all of a sudden hatred for Jews was directly because of the Zionist activities in EY.
I don’t expect you to see the truth because you have been ingrained with the Idol of Zionism -so you are blinded to the reality!