Forum Replies Created
The gap could have occurred in any of the 14 generations, i just used gen one as an example. Lets take this a step further, what if gen 1 was actually 100,000,000 (50,000,000 couples), it would now take 27 generations (or 540+ years) for everyone to multiply evenly (averaging), in order for the descendants of person A to catch up with the rest. A whole lot can happen in 540 years to widen the gap, which would delay the catching up process for hundreds of additional years. This is especially true if they isolated and avoided intermarriage. For example, the Jewish population Pre-WWII was only 16 million, less than 1% of the words 2.2 billion population. If you want to consider the various massive massacres throughout our history, it would also have to apply to the Yishmaelim, i’m sure they had their share.
Anyways, i’ll settle for 50%.
Thanks Frummy, nice talking to you!
Hi Frummy, hope you had an easy and meaningful fast.
I totally get and understand what you’re saying. Your numbers are correct, and given your specific scenario, every person will be a descendants of yishmael (and from every person of generation 1) by generation 14. In your scenario, every single couple multiplies at the exact same rate for 14 generation, thereby increasing the odds by 50% with every new generation.
(btw, nice chart, well done!)
Here are 2 others scenarios (both can occur in any of the 14 generations)…
Generation 1 odds – 1:10000
The gender population is 50/50, there are 5000 couples. 2000 couples have 10 kids, 3000 have 8 kids. Person A has 4 kids.
Generation 1 odds – 1:10000
The gender population is 50/50, there are 5000 couples. 3000 individuals take an additional spouse outside their own population, there are now 8000 females. 3000 have 6 kids (18000), 4000 have 5 kids (20000), the remaining 1000, including person A, have 4 kids (4000).
Now of course you can take my numbers and turn them around to your advantage, my point is, there is no way of knowing with certainty. Person A had to compete with thousands of couples and ensure that he multiplies equally or greater-than the rest of them. What are the chances that he (or somewhere along 14 generations) was by far outnumbered, very possible!
Haifagirl, actually, “important” translated to “impotent” because of spell check. If you accidently miss the R of “important” (using Firefox) and aren’t careful with the mouse, you get “impotent”. I sincerely apologize for the hardship and difficulties you may have experienced.
Frummy, i agree that the 1 and the 10,000, aren’t multiplying separately, but, they also aren’t multiplying in the same rate. You have to increase the odds as you move into future generations. So if the immediate ratio of when A was born is 1:10000, the ratio of the next might be 2:20000. The odds remain the same.
Akuperma, just a side note, Judaism (for all intent and purposes) has nothing to do with ancestry, Judaism merely describes a believe and way of life
Fummy, but the 10,000 among them SELF also increase drastically. Go ahead and do 1^2 and 10000^2. Keep going and see who outnumbers who.
Shein, im sorry but you arent making any sense. Using my previous example, those 10,000 that preexisted also intermarried each other without involving the Yishmaelim and thus increasing their own population in MUCH greater numbers than just ONE Yishmael. For example, if -for argument sack- one person can through intermarriage -over a decade- multiply to 1000, then 10,000 can (in their OWN intermarriages) multiply to 10 million. So if you have a population of 10,001,000 (10 million + one thousand) out of which 10,000,000 are NOT Yishmaelim, what are the chances of one being a Yishmaeli?! its hardly a 1/64 (0.015625)%. Seriously, im not understanding your logic. How can only ONE person have so much more of an effect in the future generations than the TEN THOUSAND, that 99% of all descendants get to be linked to 1 instead of 10,000?
HaLeiVi, do you mind linking to it (hebrewbooks)?
At the time he was born, there was an existence of rather large settlements and kingdoms. So for argument sack, lets assume that at the time he was born, the entire middle eastern population was only 10,000. What are the chances that those Arabs you see today are descendants of the 10,000 rather than the single newly born Yishmael? One in 10,000? That’s not very great!
And who might that be?
That’s what I thought…
I understand that you are approaching this with a pre-convinced mind-set and will never change your mind even earth and sky come together, but its also true that I’m not here to change your mind. However, there are those who read this and may want to learn. So, can you please enlighten us and tell us where the CC specifically says that LH is ONLY when its with a name?
But as a side point, there is so much lashon hara that goes on here, that if anyone here is really so concerned, s/he would stay away from these forums altogether (which is exactly why I usually do… but nobody’s perfect)
You’re somewhat right. First of all, do keep in mind that LH is a sin for the listener ONLY if he/she believes it. You are right though that its specifically prohibited to go somewhere you know you will hear LH (even you will choose not to believe anything). I dont think its the case with the YWN forums, its by far not black & white. I’m not here too often, but from what i’ve seen, there isnt a whole lot of LH here.
Sorry folks, but you are wrong, allow me to explain (to the best of my ability). Btw, Yita, thanks for the link, it is indeed a very valuable site.
The Safer CC on hebrewbooks doesnt bring down the specific Rabeinu Yona that the Yiddish version is referencing (from what i’ve seen so far), but its explaining it somewhere along those lines.
There are 2 parts to LH:
1)Its causing Tzar or damage to someone(in whichever form). For example, Reuvens bakery makes the worse marble cake i’ve ever eaten, Shimon is too nervous to be a car service driver (financial damage), or, Rivkas husband Levi doesnt davan with Minyan (Personal Tzar – people in the neighborhood may not allow their kids to play in Levis house with Levis kids). This is the obvious that’s naturally understood by anyone.
2)One Yid speaking on another Yid in negative light, that’s it! What’s the problem you might ask? Hasham gets angry when someone bad mounts one of his kids. You guys can relate to it, i’ll draw an analogy. Say Cinderella is sitting with a group of people, there’s conversation back and forth when suddenly someone starts bad mounting someone. He/she has no idea who the person is, he/she is just ranting about a story he/she witnessed “I’m appalled at what i saw this person doing” the talker says in a “speechless” tone. The rest of the group then gets engaged in this -what appears to be- harmless discussion. Little do they know that Cinderellas stomach dropped and that her heart is beating really fast, because, the person being discussed happens to be her kid! Cinderella is hoping her face didn’t turn red and is HOPING for people to end the discussion and shift lanes. The same is true with Hasham, but in a much more magnified way because (as the Mussir Sfurim note) Hasham loves us more than we love our-self, and so when one speaks on another Yid (his beloved child), he asks in anger “Who is bad mouthing my child?!”
LH has NOTHING to do with the outcome, its the talking its self. Let me quote the Safer CC on hebrewbooks (with a summery translation). This is Page 116 on the web (78 of the Safer).
?? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ?? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????
???? ??? ???? ??????? ?? ?????, ?????? ???, ??-??-????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ????
????? ????. ????? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ????
??????? ??? ??? ?????? ??????, ?? ?? ?? ?? ???? ?? ???? ??????
And know, even the LH will not lead to any bad to that person, for example, none of the listeners believed his words, etc, it is not outside the scope of LH. Furthermore, even the speaker evaluates and concludes that no bad can come out from his words (As some of you asking “what bad can POSSIBLY come out of this when no one knows the persons identity”)it is still prohibited to talk about the persons flaws. As the ??? ??? ???? explains (same age).
??? ????? ???? ?? ??????? ???
???? ????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???
?????, ?? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????
????? ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ??????
It doesn’t have to come down to friction (for it to be a sin) only by ?????? because by ?????? the talker wants to initiate a fight between the two, wheres LH, the talker wants for the listeners to agree with his words.
And guys, please remember what all the Sfurim are saying. Hasham never hands down out a bad verdict on a Yid, even he/she deserves it. He will always let the person be his OWN judge by showing him/her a similar story and then be Dan that person based on how the person responds, based on his/her OWN judgment. As the Sfurim point out, everything we see is for a reason, nothing is by accident (I was coincidentally in the same line). That’s why Chazal are commending us to always be Dan everyone favorably, its for your OWN good! If you’re Dan everyone Lkaf Zchus then Hasham will ALWAYS have to be you Dan Lkaf Zchus, even we fail at times.
In the Yiddish Chofetz Chaim (red cover), its page 129 (Hilchas LH, Klal 3). He says (not quoting word for word):
LH is Assur even the words won’t lead to damage (in whichever from), either because a)the listeners didn’t believe b)the listeners “didn’t get who’s being discussed”. In short, the persons identity is not revealed. He then brings down a Rbainu Yona which explains the concept in details.
So there you have it. Now, you guys understand that you are probably sinning far greater than the girl with the Treif chocolate who we don’t even know whether she a)ate the chocolate b)bought it for herself (etc etc, but basically, being Dan Lkaf Zchus)
I’ll look up the chapter when I get home (which would actually be the Yiddish version). Is the safer posted online (the full text)?
Yitayningwut, i responded to you yesterday but i guess the YWN Mod folks didnt release it, not sure why.
Todros Gimpel, Yes i’m aware of this, I always say before i go to sleep (the night before a fast day) that i am NOT Mekabel Tanis, just in case.
Sem20, im not sure im following you, but it seems like you’ve got a pretty interesting worked out schedule. Though for one to be able to wake up noonish, he needs to not have a boss…
Here’s one Halucha no one seems to be addressing (and especially you Cinderella). The Chofetz Chaim (in the Safer chofetz chaim) goes into great details when one should or shouldnt be Dan someone Lkaf Zchus. In order for one to be allowed to be painted in bad light (even in a suggestive and/or questionable tone), he/she must be a Rasha (wicked person). In order for one to qualify as a wicked person, he/she must do a specific sin multiple times and each time be warned by Eides (witnesses). The final conclusion of labeling one as a Rasha must be done by a Beth Din. Else, the only green light for not having to be Dan Lkaf Zchus is a Kofer (a person not believing in even just one word of the Torah or Chazal). The Chofetz Chaim stresses that one MUST be Dan Lkaf Zchus even what you see is VERY convincing that he/she is guilty.
The Rambam says (????? ???? ??? ?????):
???? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ??????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????
??????? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ???
So the thing is, im anyways up around that timing so waking up early and/or giving up sleep isnt a concern for me. In worse case, i’ll wake 30 minutes earlier than i usually wake.
ZosHaTorah, that’s precisely what im thinking, indigestion… The body is by far not expecting a 5AM breakfast (unless maybe if one skipped lunch/dinner the day before). I guess lots of fluid the day before is always a good idea, but whats the Pashat of not eating later than 10:30?
Sam2, you’re right, OU has the Alos @ 6:08 and Myzmanim.com @ 5:52. Thats 16 minutes of coffee drinking right there :).
Chocandpatience, thats odd, what time did you eat? what did you eat, when did you stop eating the night before?
Shmoolik 1, the best anything is with a cup of coffee! 🙂
Right, but, how does the body react to a 5AMish breakfast?
I’m sitting and reading this (which i hardly do) and thinking to myself:
Hashams design of opposite gender gravitation -across all living things- (to prevent living things to cease to exists within 100 or so years) has to be the most absolutely fascinating creation and philosophy, its pretty amazing. But i’m still having a hard time in trying to understand the reason for cells with half the chromosomes, A different design (such as Parthenogenesis) does exists.
Ma Rabu Maasecha Hashem!
600, I agree that they aren’t recognized, but I strongly disagree about their intend. Some I already explain.
Popa, I still want to respond to your late erev YT post and I’ll do so when I have a few extra minutes. I want to make sure that I put things in proper prospective.
Let me just be clear, I’m not advocating or approve their actions, i don’t. I just don’t see a great danger in their action. The hate response doesn’t add-up with their actions/consequences.
Yes its true. Will UPS or Fedex feel threatened if I start delivering packages from Brooklyn to Lakewood in my car?
Yita, I’m sure Popa is greatly intelligent and I’ve not cv in any manor, way, shape or form intended to bash/insult him personal. Forgive me if appears like i did. Every single word I’ve written was to formulate a point. I’m not sure why you (and Popa) see my response off topic, maybe because I responded to his “Go away”, am i not allowed to ask why a difference in opinion calls for a “Go away”?
I disagree because I believe the NK people are very insignificant and therefore don’t consider their actions to be logically dangers (unless there was evidence to prove otherwise). If there’s any reason for the IDF to show restrain, its because the ever increasing voices of the Arabs nations and UN pressure. 30/40 years ago when the Palestinians were still only using rocks and bottles to fight the IDF, they didn’t have to show restrain regardless of what the NK had to say. Now they have to deal with a greater and more sophisticated enemy, and worst of all, an uncivilized enemy who suicide to kill people. So a)they are much greater in power/weapons/sophistication b)Fighting Suicide isn’t a traditional war. The whole NK non-sense has NOTHING to do with the IDF challenges.
I’m my other posts, which you were referring as Zionist ranting, I was trying to establish that the fact that the Zionist need to do all these defending, after messing up our safety, is a FAR greater concern than the very insignificance of the NK.
I’m signing off folks. Please forgive me if I unintentionally offended someone. Have a wonderful, meaningful Yom Tov.
Yita, how is having an open conversation patronizing? Have I offended you? and Yita, between me and you, did you just form your opinion about NK?
Popa, I responded to your Apikorsus comment but it was removed.
Sam, if you believe that NK talking to Ahmadinejad makes him hate us more, then you must also believe that the Zionist actions creates jewsish hatred. If you dont think that the Zionist creates Jewish hatred (i.e they all hated us in the same way even before the state) then you cant believe that NK is effective.
“If logic shows that it should have an effect, it is still fine because in 20 years no arab stabbed a jew at one of their protests?”
Thats exactly my point, both evidence and logic shows that it has no effect. The logical part is, why would an Arab kill a Jew because some dude said he wants to be friends with the Arabs.
“It is scientific fact, because we can see that more people who smoke get cancer than people who don’t smoke”
What you’re describing is a sceintific theory. A sceintific theory is something that’s based on evidence (as you described). Smoking causing cancer is a sceintific fact involving one looking at the substance inside a cigarette, understanding exactly how the lungs are working and then see exactly how the cigarette smoke interfaces with the lungs.
No i do not go around hating people based on a believe that has no facts. Religion is the only believe, anything else is based on facts or logic.
“The onus is on you to prove that what they are doing is not harmful and dangerous.”
Operating a significant number of years and not one single incident as a direct consequence, that’s a fact. It is also illogical for a Goy to hate us more because a few looney folks tell them they wanna be friends with them, on the contrary.
No one said that smoking is the ONLY cause for lung cancer, but there are solid scientific evidence proving that smoking causes cancer. I dont just believe that smoking causes cancer, i know its a scientific fact killing close to a half a million people yearly.
Meeting with Ahmadinejad makes them insane. In their twisted mind they believe that if they meet this murderer it’ll be all good and eliminate the “hating Jews because of Zionist” factors. I disapproved all of NK’s action especially after they decided to sit in and listen to a holocaust denying propaganda speech, it made me sick to my stomach! They use bizarre and insane judgement. Ahmadinejad wont change his sick ideologies (in one way or another) because of these people, in short, their affect is Zero! Which means, they are non of these titles, including Moser, they are not.
However, deep behind their ridicules actions is a sad truth.
We live in a very diversified world in which there are thousands of different believes and options. Almost each and every person is convinced that whatever they formulated is right, whether its an ideology or opinion. Because of this diversity, one needs to learn to be open minded and respect other peoples thinking, let alone when the other persons arguments are not based on opinion but on logic. Telling someone “go away” simply because they don’t entertain your exact same thinking processes, is childish. I’m entitled to my thinking and you’re entitled to yours. I respect you for yours and you ought to respect me for mine. But besides, my arguments aren’t really based on an opinion (i.e. I like yellow you like blue), its based on logic. If all you see in my post is Zionist ranting then you really don’t get my points, but its ok. It was actually me who said Sunday “no one is going to convince anyone or change their thinking pattern”, I just wanted to prove to you logically that the hate for NK isn’t what claim it is, and I proved it.
You wrote: “You refuse to believe they could be doing any harm”
Hating a person/group of this magnetite isn’t a believe, no one hates a person based on a “believe”, it based on logical reasoning.
You wrote: “you could not show that smoking causes cancer”
This couldn’t be further from the truth. There are overwhelming scientific facts supporting that smoking causes cancer. It isn’t an opinion, theory or assumption (even though the scientific term theories are based of actual results), its a fact. If you had the same factual evidence for the NK hate as the science world has for smoking causing cancer, then you would have a VERY strong case.
You wrote: “I’m guessing that is what is driving you to believe that anyone who opposes the “zionists” must be good”
Exactly how did you establish this from my words? I never implied anything of that nature. Is it possible that its the other way around? Do you believe that anyone who opposes the Zionist must be bad and that’s your driving force?
600 Kilo, you and I are actually agreeing in believing that the NK actions are of no significance, which begs the question, where is this NK hate coming from?
a Ksiva V’Chasima Tovah to all! a sweet new year!
Ok? I rest my case. Shana Tova Popa, a Ksiva VeChasima Tovah!
They aren’t Judenrat either, that stand for a sad truth in a very idiotic, bizarre, ridicules, nutty, insane,unrealistic way. Yes, someone needs to talk some sense into them, but i fail to see how they are Kapos, or responsible for our blood or endanger our lives, if im wrong, please enlighten me.
Go read up on some of the comments and please explain to me the motivation for this hate, and by hate i mean HATE. It does not logically add up.
“I see you saying two things.”
No I’m not, I’m simply putting all the pieces together in order to establish a point. I am NOT ranting about the Zionist, i am NOT trying to establish that the Zionist are or aren’t the cause, I am simply creating a logical argument based on a number of valuables. You need to not get stuck on the valuables bur rather on the big picture.
Your continues claim on irrelevancy is also irrelevant and is diverting from the real points in the argument.
If Al Sharpton is running around shouting “Kill the Jews” (or whatever he said… something along those lines) and folks chanting “yeah kill the jews”, and shortly after a crime was committed, it is pretty obvious that its related. There are countless incidents of a crime/terror act committed in which the terrorist specifically single out Zionist (again, not ranting about the Zionist, just making a point).
You equate NK to the Natzis, the same dangerous and evil as the Natsiz. Show me how, if you cant then your claim is false and ridicules.
Right off the bat, I need to stress that I value life very greatly. Life is precious and the tragedy of a life cut short by an act of evil is incomprehensible. My heart aches for every life lost. This is true for all of life, all of the 7 billion humans on the face of earth, but it becomes more bold when its closer to heart, such as the the man and women in the United Stated military who are out there defending my freedom and liberty, but its even closer to heart when its my brothers and sisters Achanu Bnai Yisroal in whichever corner of the universe they are.
Have you ever heard of the term Circular Reasoning or “begging the question”? its basically logical fallacy, the notion of the logic is false. You can’t prove something by using the very same thing you’re trying to disprove.
You and the others are trying very strongly to establish that the Zionist and the Arab Jewish hatred or Anti-semitism are not really related, because the hatred is no different than before the Jewish state, they just hate us because were jewish, it was always the same and will always be the same. You then turn around to say that the dynamic of the anti-semitism is changed because of a few silly NK people talking non-sense. You can’t do that, it defies logical reasoning. Besides for the fact that its circular reasoning, it is also illogical that a full blown state with a massive army to fend off Arabs doesnt change anti-semitism, yet a very very small group of people do.
Having said that, you still didn’t answer my question. Give me ONE terrorist act or evil murder that can be linked directly to the NK. All you said was that there’s potential to “lead” to danger. I mean after all, you align them to the Natzis, you use the worse of of the worse language (which im not sure is allowed Haluchadig but i dont wanna go there), clearly it cant just be a “potential”, all this Natzi talk just for a Potential??
You raise the Flotilla incident and how the IDF is at times forced to work with their hands tied behind their back. I once heard an analogy repeated from the Satmar rabbi. A person was once hosting a guest for the night. During the night while all were asleep, the guest started a fire. When the house was ablaze, the guest shouted FIRE, FIRE thereby “saying” the entire family. In the morning, the host said to someone “If not for my guest we could have all died”, the person replied “If not for your guest you wouldn’t have had a fire”. The Zionist created a fireball about 100 years ago, it was against the Torah and against logic (for the safety of Jews abroad), now we are all eating the fruits, now were busy putting out the fire they started and we need to thank them for “saving” us.
You equate the NK to the Natzis. I must say, you either a)dont know enough about the holocaust (which btw has the Zionist signature in many areas) or b)had your logic shut down by the force of hate. The amount of hate against NK is stunning all while its still factually true that the danger the Zionist has put all Klal Yisroal is REAL and a gazillion times worse than NK, especially when the NK danger is still in the Potential phase, plain stunning!
“Honest. No, there would not be the same outporing of hate against the zionists for shmading us. The same way we usually get more worked up about the holocaust than about the chanuka story which was just shmading us. We really should care about shmading more, but we are human”
Being human at its default settings means being flawed. Raise a child in a jungle and he/she will grow up an animal. Ones primary objective on earth is to learn and adopt on how to overcome the natural human flaws, and yes its a constant battle. Being human means gravitating to this Olam Hashaker (world of lies), which this world is (according to chazal and all Safurim). This world is a world of lies not only in relevance to the Olam Haemes (world of truth), but just on its own, its a fake and flawed world in which we need to adjust and fight to become better/true/pure. No one has to work to pull towards all the flawed things this world has to offer, its natural, its called “Being Human”. Any unbiased logical person who would read all the responses and hate against NK and then analyze it logically, would immediately see that it isn’t about our safety but rather purely agenda driven. The very fact that you and the others have this abnormal/outrageous driving force of hate tells a compelling story to the real reason behind this hate.
The true reason for this hate is conceptually the same as a polygraph (lie detector). The truth hurts! There’s an enormousness emotional and physical response when the truth is told. As I explained above, the NK hate does clearly not add up logically with the facts, which brings me back to my very first post “There’s a painful truth behind NK’s insane actions”
I don’t think there’s a silver bullet answer to your question. The topic of matchmaking is a rather complex one. Just think about the fact that according to chazal, Hasham is –since he completed the creation of the universe– sitting and matchmaking. Think about this for a second, Hasham who created such an incredible complex universe, so complicated that we hardly touched the surface in understanding it, think of laws of physics or perhaps more closer to home, the human body (all its organs, the millions of lines of code in trillions of cells), a creation we will NEVER truly begin to understand, yet, the same Hasham is sitting and matchmaking! How complex must matchmaking be. Do you believe its Hasham who matched you up with this boy?
I can give you a loooong deep philosophical answer on opposite gender gravitation and the philosophy behind it, but i doubt you care. The bottom line is, one can never learn about another person until they live and spend life together. All the dating in the world wont get you near the results. People can date for months and months and yet still be in for an unpleasant surprise.
Btw, how old are you and the boy?