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Jokers Can DRive me MAD (okay so I stuck in an extra M, but I thought that was pretty good).
I think the reason these people define themselves as Yeshivish even though they are involved in the secular world is that they don’t necessarily see that as a hashkafa. I deliberately wrote “and/or makes a point of participating in the secular world” because that part wouldn’t necessarily apply to all of them.
Even when it does, it is not necessarily because they view it as ideal but rather because it’s important to them personally (any maybe they do view it as less than ideal but that is where they feel they are holding and they are not trying to change in that area).
Even for those who do seem to view it as an ideal, it is often a result of the fact that they are not clearly differentiating between what they consider an ideal and what is just who they are.
Alternatively, there is a difference between their “considering it an ideal to participate in the secular world on some level” and a Torah U’mada hashkafa.
Another possibililty is that they are fooling themselves and there really is not much difference between their hashkafa and a Torah U’Mada hashkafa.
The bottom line in all of the above is that they show some interest in the secular world yet their Rabbanim are “Chareidi” and they send their kids to “Chareidi” schools.
Correct that it doesn’t refet to religious level and that it does refer to sociology.
I did mean that it does refer to hashkafa, although I see why you understood differently (from what I wrote about integrating with Modern World).
I guess I’ll have to explain better. To some degree, you may be right that it doesn’t refer to hashkafa, but to some degree I may be right that it does. Keep in mind that we are talking about many different people using the term and they are all different (both because all people are different and because all people use terms differently. This term in particular is one that gets used in a variety of ways, and generally, the person himself has to explain what he means.)
This post is long enough – I’ll continue on another post.
Yekke – glad you asked. I was wondering myself.
What do you want to bet she made it up on the spot?
lol, I was debating if I should write that 🙂
When I saw that Joseph had commented but his post was still “awaiting moderation”, I was wondering if that’s what he had written.
I mean that he is “Yeshivish” in terms of his hashkafa. Really “modern Chareidi” would be a better term, but in the US, they don’t use the term Chareidi.
Depending how people use the term “Yeshivish”, some would call him Yeshivish and some wouldn’t. I find that people from Brooklyn often seem to use the term this way, but most people I know from Lakewood would not call this person “Yeshivish.”
My super-Frum friend from Teaneck who considers herself Modern Orthodox would call him Yeshivish (even though he’s less Frum and way more involved in the secular world than she is) because he’s not tzioni, believes in Kollel as a value, and says “Shabbos” instead of “Shabbat”.
Basically, it depends if you are using the term Yeshivish to refer to religious level, hashkafa, or sociology (all of which are legitimate and widely-used definitions).
With apologies to Meno :).
Nebach! That is so sad! I don’t know if I can think of anything sadder.
“I do”
It must be really hard to sleep that way. I think I’ll stick with the tights.
no, chas v’shalom. Only when it’s the truth.
Yekke, along the lines of what’s been said in some of the recent post, maybe what’s bothering you is the fact that this can cause more damage to Yiddishkeit. It’s kind of like the difference between people being Reform and Conservative vs. being secular. If someone is secular, he simply isn’t keeping the Mitzvos, but he is not denying them and he is not trying to make changes. That is why the Frum people in Israel always fight to prevent a Reform or Conservative presence in Israel.
One is an ideology and one is people having trouble keeping something. The same comparison applies to Burka vs. lack of tznius.
I could see how if the Burka women became more of a force, it could make it very difficult for someone who is involved in kiruv or in defending Orthodoxy to explain to people what tznius is about since all the usual arguments (like the ones given above) wouldn’t be very convincing if that’s not what’s happening. On the other hand, the fact that there are people who have trouble dressing tzniusly doesn’t in any way take away from the messages we are trying to give over.
WTP: “Yekke2, Mishpacha did have an article on the Burka ladies a couple of years back. Boy did it engender lots of letters to the editor.”
Winnie The Pooh – thanks for the confirmation. I thought it was the Mishpacha. And I was pretty positive it couldn’t have been the Ami.
Why should that scare you if you have high self esteem?
If someone’s self-esteem is high, he doesn’t feel a need to compare himself to others, and even if he does compare himself to others, it doesn’t bother him if they are better.
Besides, you are obviously better than them in at least one area (the area of self-esteen).
I think that anyone who is dating (and especially someone who has been dating for a while) must figure out what qualities are essential for them. I do not like all these articles and books that give a set number of things you are “allowed” to look for. You can use it as a guideline, but that’s it. There is no set number, and this does not depend on your age.
Telling someone what they are allowed to look for, and telling them that this depends on their age is ridiculous. You should never be willing to settle and you should never be looking for something unnecessary no matter how old you are. You just have to figure out what things are essential for YOU. There may be only one thing, and there may be 10.
I know an older single who heard that you should only have one quality on your list. She decided that all that mattered was that he had a good heart. So she married someone whose only noticeable positive quality was that he had a good heart (which he really did). That worked for her and they were very happy.
But it wouldn’t work for everyone.
So you really have to know yourself.
“I know a guy that started out with a paper full of *musts* and now he’s just looking for a normal girl… ”
I actually know a few girls who fit that description… I wonder why he hasn’t found one yet…
So what exactly are you suggesting? That everyone just marry anyone?
“This is not a CR modding/editing problem. Someone who feels this way when posts are edited needs to find real life support.”
We weren’t talking about posts being edited. I already said that I had no problem with that.
Refuah Shelaima!
Good things about spending time online:
1. You can’t get paper cuts on a computer.
Meno – I can’t answer you since I have never worn a black hat, but I will tell you that on my friend’s daughter’s birthday when she went around the table giving brachos to everyone, she gave me a bracha that I should be very tznius and wear tights day and night.
I did not say Amen to that bracha.
But given the choice, I think wearing tights 24/7 is easier than wearing a hat 24/7.
Yekke – Very nice!
Your D’var Torah can come in handy the next time that I have to explain to someone why I think it’s inappropriate to send a picture with my profile….
And now I’m really curious.
Wolf, I’d love to give you my opinion, but that’s kind of impossible…
Mod 29 +1
You’re in between chassidish and yeshivish?
Of course if someone’s connection to Eretz Yisrael is based on Kedusha, he should understand that someone’s decision regarding whether or not to live here must be based on where he and his family will in fact be able to reach greater heights in Avodas Hashem. That is an individual question and many factors have to be taken into account.
Yekke, you had written that you deny that Eretz Yisrael today has any semblance of Yerushalayim habenuyah. That is very different from stating that it is a shadow of what it will be.
Eretz Yisrael today may be a shadow of what it will be, but that doesn’t mean that it has no semblance to Yerushalayim habenuyah. And it is certainly very different from chutz l’aretz.
There is a reason that some of our Gedolim either made sure to never leave EY or only leave under rare circumstances.
Thank you for posting the link. I don’t have time to look at it, but if I understood what you wrote above, it sounds like everyone holds that Yerushalayim has some measure of Kedusha today.
SYAS and JWed/Frumster are also my main sources of the term. I wouldn’t necessarily describe it as “Yeshivish but not in learning”.
I have seen people use it in different ways, and that is one way that it is used.
But I have also seen it used to mean “Chareidi/Yeshivish in terms of hashkafa and/or sociological setting but modern religiously”
In other words, someone who went to Yeshivas that are considered Chareidi as opposed to Modern Orthodox and has Chareidi Rabbanim, but watches movies,etc, and/or makes a point of partaking in the secular world (as opposed to someone who works simply because he needs a parnassah or is not the type who can sit and learn all day).
An interesting idea that I heard from a friend last Shabbos:
I was talking about the difference between the Arabs’ view of “tznius” and the Jewish view of tznius. Even though the Arabs seem to be very tznius in terms of dress and actions, it actually has nothing to do with our concept of tznius. By us it’s about כבוד האשה and by them it’s about demeaning women.
My friend pointed out that we don’t cover our faces – demonstrating that we are not covering up the person (since the face is the person – פנים מל’ פנימיות
(source: Lilmod’s friend)
Meno – what is?
WTP: “Mw13, I do not know if your question was asked specifically to me, or thrown out to everyone. I actually do not want to explain why this is a distortion of yiddishkeit- I really don’t want to go anywhere where I might end up disparaging others. If you want to be exact, I was not expressing my own opinion on the practice, just trying to help Yekke2 analyze what he was feeling, which obviously does not apply to you since you do not have the same sentiments when encountering them that Yekke2 was describing. I hope that if anyone else decides to explain it, that the discussion will stick to the halachic aspects and that it won’t turn into a let’s-bash-a-whole-bunch-of-other-Jews-fest, that would take this thread over the slippery slope. I trust our wonderful mods are keeping a close eye here that this does not happen.”
Shkoyach WTP for pointing that out. I’ve been nervous about that as well.
Yekke, before you go back to Yeshiva, I just wanted to let you know that I have learned a lot from you during bein hazmanim. Thank you!
Yekke – is it possible that it’s because you have heard people speaking negatively about these groups? As opposed to others whom people talk about being dan l’kaf zchus?
Alternatively, and more likely, maybe it’s not because of an inferiority complex but rather because (as I think was already mentioned), they think they are doing the right thing and that what they are doing is more “religious” and since you don’t think that it is, that is disturbing?
Yekke – what are we confused about?
RebYidd, what in the world are you talking about??? The women who wear burqas do so because they believe in it. When one of the magazines (Mishpacha? Binah?) interviewed them, they were talking about why they do it. They took it upon themselves.
Some of them even spoke about how they took it on themselves gradually and they didn’t do it until they felt they were holding on that level. One of them spoke about how there was something that she wasn’t doing yet but she hoped to “reach that level” eventually.
(which btw explains the issues people have with them – it’s the fact that they consider this to be “reaching a certain spiritual level” and something to “strive for”, as WTP basically pointed out).
Of course, it’s theoretically possible that someone is forcing them to do this and threatened to kill them if they didn’t say these things to the interviewers, but there is no evidence of such a thing.
It’s also theoretically possible that someone is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to post in the CR.
You mean she never used the word “wife” and only said “spouse”?
What’s a tree frog?
Like Little Froggie is an actual frog?
WTP – you make really good points!
Yekke, do you feel the same way when you see people dressed untzniusly?
Personally, I do, although I’m trying to work on it and to “hate the sin, but love the sinner”.
I don’t think burqas bother me as much, but then again, where I live I rarely see burqas so it doesn’t come up.
“Burquas are forced.”
Are you talking about Jews or Arabs??? Jews aren’t forced to wear burquas.
4. The main problem I have with it is that it can cause or increase machlokes, since then someone thinks you wrote something bad about them and maybe you didn’t, or maybe it wasn’t as bad as they think, or maybe it wasn’t bad at all and is being misunderstood by the moderators.
If it were posted and the person misunderstood it, the other person would have a chance to explain, but this way they don’t, so the other person can be left thinking the first person said something bad about them when they didn’t or when it wasn’t as bad as they thought.
It can be worse sometimes to hint that someone said something bad about you without saying what it was. But obviously, if someone really thinks that something is l”h, the best is to simply delete with no (public) comment.
I meant to point out that I realize that may not have been your point, and I wasn’t trying to imply that it was.
My two favorite questions from the book with questions asked to Rav Sheinberg went something like this (I read it a while ago, so it’s not an exact quote):
1. By the time my 6 year old gets home from Cheder, he has only half an hour of free time until he has to eat supper and get ready for bed. I think that he should be using the time to learn Mishnayos, but he wants to play instead. What should I do?
And my all-time favorite:
2. If my husband works instead of learning full-time, does he still have a right to boss me around?
Yekke, while Avi’s statement is incorrect, I think your statement may be too extreme in the other direction. There is kedusha to Eretz Yisrael and Yerushalayim today and the Shechina is still here (at least at the Kosel – I don’t remember if it’s just at the Kosel or all of Yerushalayim).
For real??? So why does he/she always talk about his wife???
“Please keep your posts shorter. Thank you.”
I’m so sorry! I am working on it. It had occurred to me that was a bit long, but I felt it was very important and couldn’t really be split up or shortened.
But I will try to be more careful in the future.
And I appreciate your letting me know in such a nice way.