Forum Replies Created
January 11, 2018 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm in reply to: Why Are We Not Fighting The Radicals That Bother Soldiers Like Chillul Shabbos #1447667
Nisht: “1) He wasn’t saying it didn’t occur, just that it is so infrequent that he, who lives in Israel has not witnessed it.”
Thank you! That was precisely my point. I don’t know whether or not it happens at all, but it certainly is not a frequent occurrence, as one might think from the way the op is phrased: “many chareidim”. If it were frequent, I would have witnessed it or spoken to an eye-witness at least once in my life!
It definitely happens with far less frequency than chilul Shabbos does, and it is certainly not “many” chareidim, if these people can be termed chareidi at all.
The chareidi community as a whole neither engages in nor approves of these actions. These people do not consider themselves to be part of the “Chareidi community” nor does the “Chareidi community” consider them to be part of their community.January 11, 2018 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm in reply to: Why Are We Not Fighting The Radicals That Bother Soldiers Like Chillul Shabbos #1447668
And by the way, I consider myself to be Chareidi, and I speak out against “onaas devarim” and loshon hora and being nice to people far more often than I speak out against chilul Shabbos, and so do most Chareidim I know.
All the Chareidim I know, if they saw someone they knew engaging in the behavior you speak of, would certainly say something to them. The thing is – I don’t think that anyone I know knows anyone like that!January 11, 2018 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm in reply to: Why Are We Not Fighting The Radicals That Bother Soldiers Like Chillul Shabbos #1447679
I want to clarify a few things:
Of course it is a terrible thing to harass anyone unprovoked. And if someone sees such a thing, they should certainly be upset about it, and want to protest, and be upset if they see that there were witnesses who did not protest. If I saw people dressed in Frum attire harassing someone without prior provocation and I saw that there were others there who could have protested and didn’t, I would certainly be very upset!
However, there are several (perhaps understandable) misconceptions here:
1. The assumption that such things happen frequently. As it has already pointed out, that is far from the case.
2. The assumption that if someone is dressed a certain way, it shows something about their level of observance and the community to which they belong.
Years ago, there was another (similar-type) of issue that people were upset about. At the time, I was studying in a certain program in EY, and one of the students (who was a modern baalas teshuva) asked one of the Rabbanim (Dati Leumi and very, very anti-Chareidi) about it. He explained that these people aren’t even Frum, let alone Chareidi. They are people who went off the Derech and are no longer Frum, but still wear the levush.
I used to work in a school located in Geulah. Once on a Friday night, I saw a bunch of men yelling at a car driving by. I wanted to say something, but couldn’t say anything to them (I think I actually tried, but they didn’t hear me- they were too busy running after and shouting at the car), so instead I said something to a group of girls standing nearby. From the way they responded, it was clear that they were against such behavior as were the rest of the community, and that they did not consider these people to be part of the community.
So when you see someone engaging in anti-Torah behavior, don’t assume they are Chareidi just because of their clothes. Just like if you saw someone driving on Shabbos wearing Chareidi clothing (and it was clear that there was no pikuach nefesh involved), you wouldn’t call him Chareidi, don’t call this guy Chareidi.
Just like someone who drives on Shabbos is by definition not Chareidi, someone who harasses another unprovoked is not Chareidi!January 11, 2018 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm in reply to: Why Are We Not Fighting The Radicals That Bother Soldiers Like Chillul Shabbos #1447680
continuation of #1447679: Another misconception is that because these people are dressed Chareidi, others who are dressed Chareidi have the power to influence and stop them. These people aren’t listening to anyone. If I saw such a thing, I don’t know if I would be able to do anything about it, and I have a feeling that you wouldn’t be able to either.
If you think that you could, I would be interested in knowing what it is that you would do. For that matter, if you think there is something that someone should be doing, why don’t you just go ahead and do it instead of writing posts in the CR condemning others for not doing anything?January 11, 2018 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm in reply to: When I see “bitcoin,” my brain mistakenly reads “bitachon.” #1447654
No! I do too. And I actually just saw an ophthalmologist (about something else – not this!) and he said my eyes are just fine, BH!
I think it has to do with the fact that I am much more familiar with the term “Bitachon” than with “bitcoin”, and I am guessing that you are too, LB 🙂January 9, 2018 9:15 pm at 9:15 pm in reply to: Why Are We Not Fighting The Radicals That Bother Soldiers Like Chillul Shabbos #1446759
1. It is not true that there are many people doing this. In fact, I have never, ever witnessed such a thing, even though I live in Eretz Yisrael, and even though I used to live in a very Chareidi neighborhood, nor have any one of my many acquaintances ever once mentioned seeing such a thing. In fact, it is only in the Coffee Room that I ever even heard of such a thing.
The fact that something is reported on the news does not mean that it is a frequent occurrence. It just means that it makes good news. (It actually doesn’t necessarily mean that it ever happened at all).
2. If there are a few people doing this, they are not Chareidi. Even if they dress Chareidi ( I have no idea if that is the case or not, since I never saw or heard of it, and don’t even know if it ever happens), that doesn’t mean that they are Chareidi.
You can’t judge people by the way they dress. Just like you don’t think the soldiers should be judged by the way they dress, so too others should not be judged by the way they dress.
3. If such people exist, they would not listen if any Chareidim told them not to do so. People who do things like this are not people who listen to Chareidim (or to anyone).
4. No, most (if not all) Chareidim are definitely not okay with name-calling!
Also, when it comes to the CR, my issue is usually not the facts that are being given over, but the way in which they are given over. The problem is when a person or group is described with derogatory adjectives, in a way that can cause hatred (towards the person. group, or Am Yisrael as a whole) and/or a chilul Hashem.
re Redleg’s post: I was at someone’s house once when they started to discuss the incident referred to. I asked them them to stop as it’s L”H. They used the old “common knowledge excuse”.
I pointed out that even if it’s true that “common knowledge” is permitted in terms of hilchos L”H (which I’m not sure about), what about “V’ahavta l’raecha kamocha” to the person’s family? If you were his son, would you like it that others are talking about your father?
They conceded that I had a good point, and changed the topic.
So why did you write “100 men with Semicha”?
Were you not being literal, and just trying to say “100 men who have the knowledge that would be needed to get semicha”?
I’m not an expert on the exact nature of the process, but the point I was trying to get across was that it’s not a simple process, and it’s not like any time that a man wants a divorce and his wife doesn’t – boom! no problem – we’ll just find 100 men to sign a piece of paper.
There are cases in which a man wants a divorce and his wife doesn’t, and he is simply not able to get divorced. However, in SOME cases, he is able to get a heter meah Rabbanim.
Of course on the other hand, the unintelligent or unworldly CR readers might not have understood that… 🙂
(that was a joke, and I have no one specific in mind.).
“Takes2-2tango. Why is that?”
I would guess that it’s easier for them to find 100 Rabbis (who know enough about the situation and are willing to sign.)
If there are no specific halachic requirements, why would they have to have Semicha? (especially since contemporary semicha has no halachic significance, and is not necessarily an accurate reflection of how learned the person is.)
” the definatiin of Rav is also somewhat loose, They just make some sort of flyer and pass it in along in Israel and the US and get a few in Europe (Most of the signers are from the US or Israel)”
I don’t think it’s so simple – I know someone who was once asked asked to be the 100th Rav (or maybe it was the 99th). He was asked to be the 100th (as opposed to 1-99) because he is not a Gadol, but at the same time, he is a Talmid Chacham and Posek, and he was specifically chosen because of that – it wasn’t just passed around.
probably no more problematic than trying to teach an eishes ish in the CR.
Chabadshlucha – I just read this thread for the first time. I read your OP, and skimmed through the answers.
It seems to me that many of the posters may have been negating the validity of the question. However, I heard the same idea that I think he (and you) are expressing from a well-known Talmid Chacham.
Basically, there are many reasons that can be given for suffering (many of which were given in above posts, I think). These reasons have to do with why it is good for us. But we are still left with the question: Why did Hashem create a system in which we can only gain those things through suffering? Hashem created the rules of (human)nature – He could have created those rules differently in the first place!
The answer is that there is no answer that we can possibly understand, since we ourselves are also within the system, so we can only answer questions from within the system – we can’t answer questions that precede the system (and therefore are outside the system).
In terms of how to satisfy the man, you can tell him this and then add: If you need to take your infant to get shots, how can you explain to an infant why you are handing him over to someone who is going to torture him and stick needles in him if you love him?
“What if they are quoting from sources like……the Yated, Hamodia, Mishpacha, Binah?”
That doesn’t make it okay. I don’t want to get into specifics (for obvious reasons), but it would be very hard to find any news publication that is not at times oiver on issurei Loshon hora. I’m sure that they have the best intentions and are trying hard to avoid it, but it is a difficult task.
I have asked sheilas about this more than once, and anyone who reads any Frum publication whether online or in print has a chiyuv to point out to the editors when they notice that Loshon Hora accidentally got in. If you don’t do so, you are probably oiver on hilchos loshon hora by reading the paper and not saying anything, thus implying that it’s not a problem and encouraging the spread of loshon hora.December 26, 2017 9:02 pm at 9:02 pm in reply to: It’s illegal to have a pet lion in a lot of places. #1437106
The zoo.December 26, 2017 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm in reply to: If Donald Trump were to מְגַיֵּר and become Jewish… #1437101
“This is the most infantile conversation ive read here in the coffee room”
Apparently, you’re not a very frequent reader of the cr. I’m sure I could come up with many that beat this…..December 26, 2017 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm in reply to: Explaining to girls that only boys light the Chanukah Menorah #1437098
WTP: “Perhaps some Jews are embarrassed, as you say. But there’s another viewpoint- Torah belongs to Am Yisroel. It was not meant for the goyim, and Targum 70 was considered a tragedy. Not because we were embarrassed by what Torah had to say, but because the Goyim would inevitably twist things from the Torah and use it against us.
When statements of chazal are thrown out without context and without explanation, it can potentially be fodder for the anti-semites and anti-frum people out there who don’t know and don’t want to know what proper Torah Hashkafa is. Of course we should not be embarrassed by our Torah, but that does not mean that we need to share it with those who will distort it.”
+1December 26, 2017 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm in reply to: Explaining to girls that only boys light the Chanukah Menorah #1437097
While one should certainly never be embarrassed about any halacha, it is not a good idea to make a point of quoting something that he knows will be misunderstood and lead people to have incorrect ideas about Judaism and the Torah.
The above halacha is a halacha whose intent could be misunderstood by many as meaning that women are not as valuable/important as men. Those of us who have been learning and living Torah our entire lives know that that can not possibly be the meaning of that halacha, and therefore are not disturbed by it.
However, someone who has not been living and learning Torah his entire life would assume that is the meaning of the halacha, if it’s not explained properly. And since it is part of a very complex and vast topic, it is unlikely that anyone here would be able to explain the halacha properly in one post of less than 1,000 words (or whatever the limit is). This is particularly so given the misconceptions prevalent in today’s society regarding women and men’s roles and the concepts of equality and different roles in general.December 26, 2017 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm in reply to: Explaining to girls that only boys light the Chanukah Menorah #1437093
” I doubt many, if any goyim are on the CR.”
I’m sure there are many. This is the internet, and it is in english. I think that anytime anyone posts anything, they should consider it as though they are posting it for the whole world (because they are). In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised it there were more goyim reading this than Yeshivish people, despite the name of the website.December 26, 2017 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm in reply to: The New Tax Law – 2018 – How it affects frum families #1437084
“Lilmod, they leave it to self-identification.”
I’m surprised (but happy) that so many American Jews self-identify as Chareidi. I had thought that most American Jews do not use the term.December 26, 2017 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm in reply to: The New Tax Law – 2018 – How it affects frum families #1437082
qualification to above post: I didn’t really read the details of the subject at hand, so I don’t know which type of calculation is more relevant in this case. I was simply pointing out how and why the calculations could possibly be done in two different ways and reach different conclusions.December 26, 2017 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm in reply to: The New Tax Law – 2018 – How it affects frum families #1437080
I think that the problem in general with surveys that calculate averages is that an “average figure” is not necessarily the same as “typical” or “most”, and is not necessarily a good indication of “typical” or “most”.
For example, the average salary in a country does not necessarily reflect the amount of money that most people earn, since there may be a minority of people who are earning way more than the average, and are therefore significantly raising the average.
I think the median is generally a better way to figure out what is typical than the average is.
When it comes to family size, if for example, out of 10 families, 7 of them have 7 kids each, but one is still single, one can’t have kids or doesn’t have kids yet, and one only has one kid, the average will be 5 but the median is 7.
I think that the median is probably a better way to figure out what is typical than the average.December 26, 2017 6:33 pm at 6:33 pm in reply to: The New Tax Law – 2018 – How it affects frum families #1437074
LC – I don’t know how these surveys work, but I would assume that an adult single (certainly if he/she is living on his/her own, and possibly even if he/she is not) would count as a family even though he/she doesn’t have children. This would decrease the average number of children calculated in such a survey, and make it appear to be less than it would be if you are not including singles (and I would guess that Joseph was not counting singles).
He was talking about himself – and contrary to popular belief, there does not seem to be any source for the idea that it’s assur to speak l”h about oneself.December 25, 2017 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm in reply to: The New Tax Law – 2018 – How it affects frum families #1436390
“and that the average Orthodox family has 4.1 children, not 7. ”
Do the Pew Polls count singles? If so, the figures will be much higher if you’re not counting singles.
Also, are they counting older couples? If so, I think that the average Orthodox family today has way more children than they did in the last two generations, so that would also make a big difference if you want to discuss the average Orthodox family with children living at home.
Also, the Pew Polls are probably counting couples that don’t have any children, and Joseph may not be counting those.
Also, I think Joseph specifically said that he is talking about the total amount of children that people end up having, which is not what the Pew Polls are calculating.
Please Note: I don’t know what the average is and I don’t claim to know; I am just pointing out some of the factors that can make a difference in the calculations, and may account for the different opinions.
true, but we also know it’s not LH, so it doesn’t have to be l’toeles.December 25, 2017 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm in reply to: The New Tax Law – 2018 – How it affects frum families #1436382
“The Pew poll says that % of chareidi Jewsis 62% , not 75,”
Wow! I hadn’t realized it was that hard (even if it’s “only” 62%). How do they define Chareidi? Do they leave it to the people to define themselves? And do they actually use the term “Chareidi”?
I saw it was LF who started the thread, so I knew it was ok.December 18, 2017 11:07 pm at 11:07 pm in reply to: Who Are The Most Liberal Posters in the Coffee room? #1429795
“Neither political party has a Torah perspective, and to try and wedge the Torah into the Republican or Democratic platform is wrong and dangerous.”
WTP – beautiful posts, and beautifully phrased! Shkoyach!
I would like to add something that I think people should be careful about:
One has to think carefully about how to present things. There can be groups or individuals who call themselves “Orthodox” but have attitudes that are more problematic than Secular precisely because they consider themselves and their hashkafos to be Orthodox, and the parents may not want their children to consider those hashkafos to be legitimate.
It is unlikely that the children will become Reform in any case. What usually happens (from what I’ve seen in my work with kids-at-risk) is that they become less Frum or not-Frum but their hashkafos are still intact and they still view the Chareidi way as the right way, and their aspiration is to eventually go back to becoming Chareidi again, once they have worked out their psychological issues. And often, they do come back.
And even if they never end up going back to keeping everything, it is worse to be an apikorus than to not keep Mitzvos.
On the other hand, there may be hashkafos that they consider to be “less legitimate” than their own, but not completely illegitimate, and they should make sure that their kids realize that those hashkafos are not like Reform and not “off-the-map”.
I’m deliberately not getting into examples, and I’m not saying it’s always clear which hashkafos belong in which category. The point is that it’s not black-and-white (in either direction). The fact that a group calls itself Orthodox doesn’t necessarily mean that it is legitimate. And one has to think carefully about how to present these things to his children.
If it’s not clearly wrong, you shouldn’t teach your children that it’s clearly wrong, but if it’s not clearly right, you can’t teach them that it’s okay, even if it is called Orthodox.
LU: “Ftresi is correct. The statement: “It helps them become modox. which is not as bad as frei” does imply that it’s bad to be modox although not as bad as frei.”
Ubiquitin: no he isnt correct.
This was explained above.
“ITs saying that for a chassid to abandon his roots, being modox is not as bad as becoming frei.”
LU: No, it wasn’t explained above – it was misconstrued to mean something that it doesn’t mean. In english, the meaning of the statement, “It helps them become Modox, which is not as bad as Frei” means that it is bad to be Modern Orthodox, but it is not as bad as being Frei.
If someone wanted to say that becoming Modern Orthodox is not as bad as becoming Frei, the correct way to phrase that would be, “It helps them become Modox which is not as bad as their becoming Frei.”
And either way, nothing was said about Chassidim. You are adding things to his post that aren’t there.
How can mouthwash lead to diabetes???!!!December 7, 2017 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm in reply to: How to help guys in Torah learning /prevent bitul Torah #1422608
Elmo – you’re right that she can and should learn herself, as should every woman. According to Rav Avigdor Miller, Zatsal, a woman would need to learn for at least 60 years to finish learning everything that she is OBLIGATED to learn.
But, at the same time, I have always learned that there is a difference between a man’s learning and a woman’s learning, and a woman receives a unique reward for enabling a man to learn.
If a woman wants to get the full share of Limud Torah that is allotted to her, she should do both – learn herself and support a man’s learning.
As Rav Hutner, zatsal said, a woman has a double portion in Limud Torah – her own and her husband’s. (and if she doesn’t yet have a husband, presumably she can receive it through helping other men/boys to learn.)
Joseph – lol
I think I once met one, but I wasn’t mekarev him. It was at a single’s event, so it wasn’t really the appropriate venue for Kiruv. Also, he considered himself to be Frum, and I didn’t feel qualified to explain to him why he’s not.
I don’t remember what color his hair was, but can guys be blondes? Or is it like brunettes that you have to be female?
LB – what’s the counterpart to a Paleontologist?
Refuah Shelaima, LF!!!
They can take a really long time…been there, done that… my sympathies.
Mod 100 – lol
ZD: “The reality is Chassidism is not for everyone, even if you were born into it. It would be alot better if people were given better choices before the situation is almost hopeless before offering Project Makom because at that point, footsteps is offering a better solution”
1. I don’t think we’re only talking about Chassidim. I think we’re talking about anyone Chareidi.
2. You’re right in theory, except for a few things:
a) The parents’ obligation is to try to bring up their kids the best way possible. And if they consider a certain derech to be emes AND most people who bring up their kids this way are successful, then their obligation is to first try to bring up their kids this way.
b) The vast majority of the time it does work. In the minority of cases in which it doesn’t work, there is usually something else going on here. The normal thing is for kids to want to be like their parents.
Ftresi is correct. The statement: “It helps them become modox. which is not as bad as frei” does imply that it’s bad to be modox although not as bad as frei.
However, it is important to remember that the term “modern orthodox” has many, many meanings, and therefore, it is not necessarily incorrect to refer to modox as “bad” depending on the meaning they are using which would depend on the context.
If modox refers to people who don’t dress Yeshivish, then it would not be appropriate to call it “bad”. But if it refers to people who keep some halachos but not all of them, then it makes sense to say that it is bad but not as bad as frei.
There are a lot of other “in-between” meanings which may fall into a grey category about which it is not clear if it is “bad” or not.
In this case, the meaning would depend on what the people who are helped by Project Makom become after they are helped by Project Makom (or what it is that Project Makom helps them to become).December 7, 2017 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm in reply to: How to help guys in Torah learning /prevent bitul Torah #1422511
The best thing you can do is to daven! For men/boys in general and/or specific ones.
Avram – wow! Amazing! kol hakavod
“sigh the question was about (and I quote ) “…an average frum family…”
First of all, I find sighing to be rather arrogant and rude. There have been many times when I could have “sighed” at you, but chose not to. (the last post was only to make this point) .
Second of all, apparently I understood the term “average Frum family” differently than you did. I think that I had thought he meant the average of all Frum families. Meaning the average amount of questions asked by Frum families.
And honestly, it’s a bit ridiculous and rude to put so much emphasis on defining “average Frum family” a particular way. Maybe my idea of the average Frum family is different than yours is. Of the 7 households in my immediate family, 4 of them consist of only females.
I also am not sure that it made sense for you to marginalize “newcomers”. I am not sure if you meant people who became Frum less than a year or two ago, or if you were referring to all baalei teshuvas, but there are so many baalei teshuvas that I’m not sure if it makes sense to put them in a separate category, especially since bt’s often end up learning more halacha than ffb’s, and often have more questions precisely because they are more aware of the halachic issues that come up on a regular basis, as opposed to ffb’s who are more likely to take things for granted and just assume that since they’ve been doing something the same way for so many years, it must be okay, or to be reluctant to ask sheilas for the reasons that Benignuman and I gave above.
As I think was already pointed out, the whole idea of talking about an “average Frum family” makes no sense, which is probably the reason I didn’t interpret it the way you did.
Benignuman: thanks for clarifying. That’s a good point, and probably true.
but then again, some people think I’m male….. especially in the CR 🙂
“So what happens if the same person is convinced that he knows what the MB is saying, and in fact, he doesn’t”
“Im confused. then he DEFINITELY wont be asking his Rav a question. that is’ the guy you are arguing, asks questions?”
Again, I’m talking about the questions people should be asking, as I’ve explained many, many times already.