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Thinking of the question was much more brilliant. I was just making a joke, which coincidentally turned out to be true.
Meno – You can do what you want, but maybe it’s nicer to avoid doing that if you know that they may not eat it.
Geordie – I don’t know if you can necessarily draw that conclusion. First of all, maybe Avraham Avinu was being extra machmir. After all, the Avos were not obligated in any halachos besides 7 Mitzos b’nei Noach, and kibud av v’aim is not one of those.So I would imagine that in his case, it was not an obligation. Second of all, there was no concept of Jews or non-Jews yet.
What we can learn from this is that it is definitely recommended, but I’m not sure that it’s commanded. Unless there is a source that specifically says that we learn from here that it’s a halacha. Is that what Rav Frand said?
Whether or not we learn it from here, it could very well be that there is a concept of kibud av v’eim even when the parents are not Jewish. In the case of a ger, the parents aren’t really his parents halachically, but since (I think) one of the reasons for kibud av v’eim is “hakaras hatov” for giving you life, it might apply to not-Jewish parents as well. It certainly is good middos even if it’s not mamash halacha.
When I distinguished between Jews and non-Jews, I was thinking of the Loshon Hara issue and not about kibbud av v’eim.
You have a very good point, Geordie, that kibud av v’eim should apply either way (whether it’s halacha or good middos).
Avi, I think the halacha may be that you are supposed to phrase it as a question, “Totty, isn’t the halacha x,y,z?”
Although if Totty/Dad/Abba is unlearned, I’m not sure how it would be possible to phrase it that way, if Son knows perfectly well that Dad doesn’t know the halacha and never learned it.
LB, this was a good point that you brought up in this thread. I don’t know if I would have thought about it when preparing mishloach manos. I just think about the fact that I don’t have time to bake. But it’s a very good point, and it makes sense to follow ZD’s aitza (unless you know for sure that all the people you are sending to would eat your food).
ZD: “However to make things simple, I just give sealed single packed hemish items so nobody questions.”
That’s a good policy. Especially since the mishloach manos’s are liable to get mixed up with each other, so even if the people in question would trust your kashrus, they might not know who it’s from.
When I was growing up, it was very common that people didn’t eat in other people’s homes. I don’t know if it was an out-of-town thing or a generational thing, but I don’t notice that as much anymore. Personally, I have grown very lax (I’m not saying that is good; just stating a fact).
I remember one kid who wasn’t even allowed to drink a cup of water in anyone’s house. Her parents were concerned that if she drank a cup of water in someone reliable’s house, her younger siblings might follow her example and eat something problematic in someone’s house whose kashrus was questionable. Her father is actually a known Rosh Yeshiva, although I didn’t realize it at the time (and maybe he wasn’t yet).
If you don’t eat at anyone’s house, then you don’t have to worry about insulting anyone. But it takes a lot of discipline.
I thought an agnostic is someone who is not sure whether or not G-d exists, as opposed to an atheist who thinks he is sure that kaviyachol, I don’t want to even say the words, but you get the idea.
That is why many say that there can’t really be such a thing as an atheist because no one can say that he knows for sure such a thing (especially since “ther is no atheist in a fox hole”), so people who call themselves atheists are really agnostic.
lol, I was only joking, but it turns out I was right!
Google – “history of paper airplanes” and check out the Wikipedia article.
Apparently, airplanes were invented as a result of and modeled after paper airplanes. It’s still not clear to me what they were called though.
According to Wikipedia, the original paper airplanes were invented in China around 500 BCE
Maybe the guy who invented the airplane got the idea from paper airplanes. Maybe the original airplane was a paper one.
They probably did, but they called it something else. Maybe they called it “flying paper”
LB: “Why does it have to be personal?”
I agree. It shouldn’t be personal. Different people have different standards. Also many people are ignorant of certain halachos. Some people are very chilled-out by nature which is a big maaleh in many ways, but sometimes the flip side is that they are inadvertantly not as careful as they should be in their kitchens.
I had a friend whose house I ate in until I spent some time in her house and realized that I can’t trust her kashrus since I saw that she did things that were seriously problematic. (There were goyim who used her ovens and microwaves to heat up their own – possibly treif- food, and then she would use the ovens and microwaves for her own family’s food without covering the food even though her husband told her she had to double-wrap it. And I’m sure many people ate in her house without knowing about this. There was even a seminary that heated up food in her ovens unsuspectingly).
I probably have many friends whose houses I shouldn’t eat at. There are many things that people are either unaware of or not careful about (probably myself included – I’m not sure if I should be eating in my own house). Kashrus is not a simple thing.
Lightbrite – I meant if he were Jewish, you wouldn’t be allowed to speak against him.
It is better not to speak negatively against goyim either, but it is not assur. And there are situations in which it is necessary. But even when it’s necessary, I think it’s always better to speak about the actions without being judgmental of the person per se’.
For example, in the Turx example, I think it’s important to stick up for Turx since he is Jewish. But at the same time, one can be “dan l’kaf zchus” Trump for the reasons (on an emotional level) that he acted the way he did even while saying that he acted incorrectly. In an article on YWN, it said something about how he has been on the defensive and t/f is understandably quick to read criticism into innocent comments.
So it was being understanding of Trump and not condemning him even while saying that Turx was right and he was wrong.
I’m not saying that you’re never allowed to condemn goyim when they act inappropriately, but I think it’s a maaleh to be “dan l’kaf zchus” and understand why they act as they do.
Avi: “He will then go from being anoos to hsogeg and maybe even meizid.”
That is the reason I was given that you are not supposed to tell them. But again, I do not know if it is correct (since my source of information was not reliable), so everyone should ask a sheilah if they are in that situation.
If you’re going to be on Internet, CR is probably one of the better places to be.
But neither one is l’chatchila, imho. And anyone who thinks so is fooling themselves, imho. But we don’t live in a l’chatchila world, and everyone has to make their own cheshbonos.
That involves considering what your alternatives are. That is different for each person. There may be some people who would be learning Torah. They should not be here. There may be some who would be on other sites online. They probably should be here (depending what those sites are). There are some who would go out of their minds because they need the outlet because their jobs are boring or they live or work by themselves, etc. They probably should be here, unless they can find a better outlet.
Additionally, as in any other decision, it also involves considering the maalos and chesronos. Some people may feel that the site either gives them chizuk and/or gives them the opportunity to give chizuk to others. Some may feel that they learn more Torah as a result of the CR since it gives them the impetus to look things up.
Those things should be weighed against any potential chesronos. But anyone who thinks there are no chesronos is fooling himself, imho.
rebshidduch – her father’s mother being Jewish does not make her Jewish.
The only thing that would make her Jewish is if her mother is Jewish. Is her mother Jewish?
Avi – How does that dispute my statement that the terminology “tinok shenishba” can not possibly apply to goyim even if the concept (of being “anusim”) does?
can’t imagine it would be too hard for rebshidduch to find shadchanim in lakewood who work with 20 year old girls looking for learning boys….
“Do you have to ask a shaila to your LOR in these cases?”
Definitely!
Are you talking about saying something publicly or saying something to the person himself?
If you meant publicly, you certainly are not allowed to say anything negative about him. For that matter, no one else is either.
If it’s privately, there are ways that one is halachically allowed to give tochacha to a parent.
I saw an interview/s with Ivanka in which she seemed to handle this issue very well. The interviewer was asking her very difficult and inappropriate (imho) questions about her father’s behavior. She refused to say anything negative about her father (in one interview, she kept saying firmly but politely, “you will have to ask him”), but she did mention that in private she is very open about stating her opinions to her father.
WTP – actually in EY, girls get married older than in the US. In the US, you pretty much have to start dating at 18 or 19, whereas in EY, it is totally acceptable to wait until you finish school at 20. The boys are younger here (in EY, they usually start at 21, and in the US, they usually start at 23 or 24), but the girls are older and have less pressure to get married by a particular age.
I’m not saying there is no shidduch crisis in EY. I am just saying that it is less than the US, so I don’t see how you can blame the apt. issue on it.
I didn’t realize that it is harder to buy an apt today, but I still think it is hard to blame the shidduch crisis on that. For one thing, there is a shidduch crisis in the US as well. And for another, my impression (although I am not absolutely certain) is that in a lot of ways, things have improved. For one thing, the economy is way better than it used to be. For another, I was under the impression, that today it is more common that some of the responsibility of paying for an apartment is on the boy’s side. And for another, it is much more common and acceptable for chareidi boys to work than it used to be.
“I”YH they will get married, but maybe not to the high caliber boy they would have wanted..”
I have a hard time with that sentence. I always looked at marriage as being about marrying the right one for you, not about “caliber”. If he’s not the right one for you, then you shouldn’t marry him, even if there is no one else, and if he is the right one then you should marry him even if he is not “high-caliber”. At least that is how I always looked at shidduchim, but maybe I’m wrong.
LB – if someone does something against Jews, you should be judgmental, at least about their actions.
In general, there is a big difference between judging someone’s actions and judging the person.
My point about their comment being anti-women was as follows: if it really were demeaning to women to exclude them from ads (as they apparently feel), then they would be right for apologizing even though they did so because it’s offensive to Chareidim to have pictures of women.
If a certain religious group believes in demeaning a certain type of person, it doesn’t make it okay for others to do so in order to avoid offending them (and to get their business).
So based on their understanding of the issue, they are in the right. The problem is that their understanding of the issue is all wrong. That is what I was speaking about. I understand why they don’t understand the issue, but the fact is that their actions are still wrong.
Anytime I criticize someone, it is always their actions I am criticizing. I have no means of judging the person. My assumption is always that the person is a product of a combination of nature, nurture, and society. It is impossible for a human being to ever judge another human being – only Hashem can do that – we can only judge their actions.
LF- when I saw that you commented on this thread, I was quite surprised, and it got me very curious: Do frogs wear hats and jackets? What about ties? I’m trying to picture a frog with a hat, jacket and tie, and it looks very funny!
IITFT – thank you for finally bringing a source for this.
I once met a Jewish girl whose grandmother was catholic. (her mother was Jewish and her father wasn’t. She was a bt). She said that her grandmother told her that she believes she will be d_ _ _ ed because she does not believe in the things that they do.
I was always under the impression that christians felt that everyone has to be part of their religion. That is why they have missionaries.
Christianity is a belief, not a birthright or nationality.
Judaism, l’havdil is a birthright. That is why a Jew is a Jew forever even if he doesn’t believe in or do anything. And that is why we don’t have missionaries.
Did you cover your mouth? Were your kids or parents present?
I think there is something that is very important to point out in this discussion. There is a difference between saying that goyim get punished for doing x,y,z, and saying that they won’t have a cheilik in Olam Haba if they do x,y,z.
Earning a cheilik in Olam Haba is a very specific reward that one only gets for performing certain actions. When I said that I am under the impression that goyim are not entitled to dispension based on ignorance, I was referring to the Cheilik in Olam Haba (and not necessarily to punishment). I have no idea if it applies to punishment or not.
I did hear from a Rav of mine that even if a goy is not entitled to a cheilik in Olam Haba, he still gets a reward for the Mitzvos that he performed. In other words, a cheilik in Olam Haba is the term for a specific form of reward, but one can still receive some form of eternal reward even if he is not entitled to a cheilik in Olam Haba. I was very relieved when I heard that since I always felt bad for goyim who have done some very good things but messed up on one of the 7 Mitzvos b’nei Noach (whether knowingly or not).
I don’t remember what the source is for that, although I may have it somewhere, but I do know that there was a source.
Golfer, while I appreciate your trust in me, I can not guarantee that the CONCEPT of Tinok shenishba as a concept does not apply to goyim (although I am fairly positive that the term itself does not make sense, but that is semantics).
However, I can guarantee that what I wrote in this post about goyim receiving a reward for their Mitzvos is correct.
Do you know that a girl whose father isn’t Jewish is not allowed to marry a
Kohen? A lot of people don’t know that halacha, and it has a lot of practical ramifications nowadays.
I had a friend who had to break up with a guy she liked whom she had already gone out with a few times because of that. The guy has some svara as to why it might be okay (in their case, at least), and he asked Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach zatsal, but he said it was assur.
Huju – lol
Yeah! 5ish saw the post!
TOL- why shouldn’t they get delivered?
btw, I think it is SO cool that you guys were able to arrange this on an anonymous thread!
I think that one big difference between being in kollel vs. working is that when someone is in kollel, I would imagine that it is much easier to live simply than when you are working.
When someone chooses to learn in Kollel, they are aware that they chose to sacrifice (in the physical realm) in order to live a more Ruchnius lifestyle. So they are ready and willing to live simply. That is a basic part of Kollel life. When someone chooses to work all day to make money, they expect to be able to not have to scrimp TOO much.
I know that personally, whenever I have to make a decision about taking on an extra job or extra work hours, when I make my cheshbonos, I always take into account the fact that the more I work, the more money I am likely to spend.
I think that some people borrow the money to buy an apartment. This way, they can make payments to the people they owe money to instead of paying rent. Then eventually, they finish paying them off (unlike rent which lasts forever). Hopefully, they finish the payments before their kids are in shidduchim. They can then use the money which had been going towards those payments for their kids’ mortgages and/or down payments on apartments. Also, by then the husbands should have some kind of parnassah in kli kodesh plud they no longer have to pay tuition for their kids who are no longer in school, so that money can also go towards helping their kids to buy apartments.
Basically, as you pointed out, most people in Israel consider it less-costly to own an apartment, so they either borrow, get money from rich relatives or from the previous generation (who is not paying rent since their parents bought them their apartments, so they are able to afford to help out the next generation) in order to be able to buy. And then they are in a better position to help the next generation.
Some people manage by continuously selling their apartments as the value goes up and buy in newer (less expensive) areas. I don’t know how many actually do that, but I heard of at least one person who did that.
And some people create take some space from their apartment and add on to it in order to create another apt. they can rent out to help them pay the mortgage. Or they create an apt. out of their machsan or parking lot to rent out.
I think that basically the way it works is that if you are part of a system, you know how that system works and how to manage within that system. But if you did not grow up in that system, you are pretty clueless. That is why Americans in Israel have such a hard time.
I am still trying to figure all this out myself. I have a hard enough time managing as a single girl, so I can’t for the life of me figure out how it works when you have an entire family to support.
“Realistically, there are an awful lot of girls sitting around not getting shidduchim because their families cannot come up with the 500,000- 1,000,000 NIS that is needed to buy an apartment (price goes up with value of boy in question).”
but l’maaseh, nearly everyone gets married. Certainly until recently, Israel did not have a “shidduch crisis”. I’m not sure if they do now either, but if they do, it is just started despite the fact that this has been an issue for a while. And in fact, if anything, I would think that it’s less of an issue than it used to be, so if there is starting to be a shidduch crisis, this issue (buying apts.) can’t be blamed.
Furthermore, there is much more of a “shidduch crisis” in the US despite the fact that this issue does not exist there.
“Though technically someone with a Christian father is also Christian.”
That sentence is not true. Anyone with a Jewish mother is Jewish and not a christian. Perhaps what you meant to say is: “The christians mistakenly think that anyone with a christian father is a christian even if the person’s mother is Jewish. However, they are wrong, since such a person is 100% Jewish.”
In any case, the christians think that everyone is meant to be christian. As far as I know, they have no concept of being christian by birth. Maybe you mean the Muslims?
But it’s true – I would think it’s a good idea to tell someone so at least maybe one day their kids will find out and do something about it. But it’s a good idea to find out what the halacha is in case there really is an issue.
LU – the issue was that they were assuming that she was unlikely to do anything about it if she heard she was Jewish. She was probably a religious christian married to a religious christian. I don’t know for sure, but most of our not-Jewish teachers were religious christians, so there’s a good chance she was.
Avi – I said that the terminology is inaccurate for goyim. Where in your post do you dispute this?
ZD – lol, I didn’t want to say where the quote came from….
(shrugs) that’s my big sister told me when I was a kid. She had a teacher who was Jewish and didn’t know it, and they didn’t tell her for this reason. It was based on the idea that it’s better for a person to sin unknowingly than knowingly.
There may be nothing to it. I’m not saying my sister as a teenager was necessarily a reliable source.(I’m also not guaranteeing that I understood or am remembering the details accurately). But it’s worth checking out.
Also, if this was a matter that involved her class, there is a good chance that this came from the fathers of her classmates who were Talmidei Chachamaim. So it is POSSIBLE that there was something to it.
bump
LB – has it happened to you?
rebshidduch – how did you know the person was Jewish?
btw, if it comes up again, you may want to find out what the halacha is regarding whether or not you should tell them.
WTP – thanks for the clarification.
btw, I don’t know much about these things, but I think the Modasty shells might be lycra.
Avi – you seem to have misunderstood Nechomah and my comments. Neither of us mentioned “b’nei Noach”. We wrote about the differences between goyim and Jews.
Thank you for bringing sources. I don’t have time to look up your sources right now, but from what you wrote, it doesn’t sound like any of these sources are about goyim who are brainwashed by society. Do you have sources for that?
yw.
I think she meant the bubbles.
just try to cover your mouth if there are others around. If you don’t, it’s not so terrible.
Winnie the Pooh – +1. Good to know about the dryer. I didn’t know that. I don’t think I ever tried putting them in the dryer. It’s great to know that I can. Especially in the winter, when it’s hard to find a place to hang my clothes to dry.
Matching is not super-important to me, since I mainly wear black or grey skirts. I don’t want a shell that has a neckline that needs taking in, because it ain’t gonna happen.
You don’t know that. That is the point.
The Rabbi was talking about tznius and Kedusha. Yawning w/o covering your mouth is not a lack of tznius or kedusha. If there are others around, it is rude. Otherwise, it is not.