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Oh, so you mean that guy was actually giving me a compliment? And here I thought he was insulting me!
Rebshidduch – try to work on your bitachon that Hashem can send you your zivug through many means. All types of people have met their zivugim in all types of ways.
We are not allowed to daven to marry a specific person because we don’t know who our zivug is. We have to trust in Hashem that He will send the right one at the right time in the right way.
Shopping – since when is gum special for Shabbos? Actually, it doesn’t seem so Shabbosdik to me. Why can’t you have gum during the week?
“However I did not know that you could be bought with flattery.”
lol. I didn’t mean it that way at all. By the way, that whole thing was meant half-jokingly in any case. I didn’t really think you’d be offended.
I was referring to the comments on the post about point inflation. Someone made the comment that he is never sure if the points mean agreement, thanks, or a compliment. It occurred to me as I read it that that is why I do not think it is offensive to sometimes give +1,000 and sometimes give +1. I had never really analyzed that much before, but when I read that thread, it occurred to me that that is the difference between +1 and +1,000 and the reason no one should be offended.
They simply mean different things. +1 means agreement, and +1,000 is a compliment (or thanks). Maybe I am wrong and that is not how I have used the terms in the past. I don’t really remember. But when I read that post, that’s what I thought. And it seemed like a good idea to use them that way.
Nechomah – +1. The specific term, “tinok shenishba” can not possibly apply to goyim since the full phrase is something like, “tinok shenishba bein hagoyim.” However, theoretically the basic concept can. Meaning, it would be possible that Hashem doesn’t judge goyim for something they didn’t know. I think that is what some of the posters were referring to, even though the terminology may be inaccurate.
I don’t have a source off-hand and I don’t have time to look for one, but I think that those who are saying that this concept doesn’t apply to goyim may be correct.
However, I think IITFT brought up the topic in reference to Yidden. I think he was saying that Yidden are not tinok shenishba in regards to 7 Mitzvos b’nei Noach. Is that correct, IITFT?
I am also wondering if you have a source for that, or are you assuming that based on the fact that the Goyim are not considered “Tinok shenishba” (I know those words can’t be used for goyim, but my point is that the concept does not even apply to goyim) for the 7 Mitzvos b’nei Noach, and t/f you are assuming that Yidden also can’t be tinok shenishba for the 7 Mitzvos?
If so, I think it is an incorrect assumption. Even though the goyim only have 7 laws as opposed to our 613, they are judged much more harshly for those 7. This happens in several ways. I think that I have learned (again, I have no source off-hand) that one of the ways they are judged more harshly is that they have no concept of tinok shenishba which does apply to Yidden.
But in any case, my point was that regardless of how Hashem judges people, that has nothing to do with us. It is not our job to judge people. Our job is to sympathize with them and try to help them to keep the Mitzvos so that they don’t get punished. Obviously, we have to use our seichel in how we go about it. But it is good to keep in mind a great quote I heard once: “If I know the way to earn Eternal Life, how much would I have to hate someone else in order to not tell them about it?”.
If it is in fact true that someone is going to burn because they don’t know about the Mitzvos (and I’m not saying that it is), then you really should feel bad for them and try to teach them about the Mitzvos (if you can do so in a productive way, and either way, you should try your best to be as nice as possible so that you can make a Kiddush Hashem and they more likely to want to be like you).
Regarding Goyim, while it seems unfair that they will be not get a cheilik in Olam Haba because of something they don’t know about, that should be our impetus to teach them. The only way they will know is if we teach them. That is why there are Jews who dedicate their lives to teaching goyim about the 7 Mitzvos b’nei Noach. I think the only reason most of us don’t do it is because there are so many Jews who are ignorant or confused, and our responsibility lies with them first.
Reprinted from where? From the CR or another website?
Are they long sleeved? And do they have really high necklines? And are they made with the same super-comfortable material the Israeli ones are made with?
And even if they are in 34 colors, do they have the same gorgeous shades as the ones I bought in Israel?
Assurnet: “And if it is indeed that lucrative, then what is the point in sacrificing away a life of potential learning in order to slave away at a job just to set yourself up for financial failure anyway when you could just get it from somebody else and spend the majority of your time in the beis midrash?”
Maybe you have a point.
I recently asked a friend of mine whose oldest daughters are in shidduchim now about this – how people afford apartments for their kids. She told me that her daughters have discussed it with their friends and just about everyone seems to have some relative who has money and helps them out.
I know with one friend of mine whose family had NO money at all to help out and she married a boy who is learning and whose parents were in chinuch, there was some relative on the boy’s side (maybe his grandmother) who bought their apartment for them.
Does every family really have some relative who works and has money and is willing to help them out? I don’t know. I guess it makes sense that in every family there will be someone who is not cut out for learning, and if the rest of his family learns and he doesn’t, it would make sense that he would feel that he should be helping them out.
I don’t know if this is the case for every single family, but it’s possible that it is the case for most.
“There is no din of tinok shenishba for Noachide commandments”
That may be so regarding the way Hashem judges them, but I don’t think it takes away from our Mitzvah of “Ve’ahavta l’raecha kamocha”.
It happened to me once with a student when I was working with kids-at-risk. He was Frum and knew it was assur so that wasn’t really the topic of discussion. I pointed out to him that if the Torah assurs something, that might mean that everyone has the potential to have a yetzer hara for it, although it may come out stronger in some people because of nature and/or nurture. He liked that response. He didn’t like the fact that I disagreed with him about there being a specific gene. I also gave him an article from aish.com that dealt with the issue. He really liked the article.
This case was different because he was Frum and was not disputing the fact that it’s assur. And it’s true that these kinds of conversations don’t come up with most people. But they can, although it may be rare. There are some people who are the type of people who people tend to open up with and start interesting conversations with. Also, I think it would be more likely to happen in Israel, since people are more likely to have hashkafic discussions here and also they are more likely to realize (at least on some level) that it’s assur. Also, if someone works in kiruv, these conversations are VERY likely to happen.
But again, what you say and how you say it really has to do with the context and nature of the conversation as well as who you are talking to. You always have to use your seichel. And you should always try to be sympathetic and non-judgmental (about the person – you can be judgmental about the actions).
DY – +1 for both of your last posts. Those are very good points, especially the second to last one. I wasn’t sure how to respond once when someone used the JFK argument on me (never having thought about the topic before). Now I’ll know if it comes up again.
This was a particular deal that they had in a particular place at a particular point in time (maybe about a year or two ago) for a particular group of apartments.
I’m not sure exactly where, but it might have been somewhere close to where Beit Shemesh becomes RBSB, maybe somewhere near Cheftziba, but I’m not sure. (aside from the fact that I don’t remember, I’ve never been good at geography).
I love Israeli shells – at least the ones they sell at Modasty. The material is much more comfortable than the material the ones in the US are made of.
They also have much nicer colors (I love their colors! I have gotten a lot of compliments on my Israeli shells). They sell pastel-colored shells year-round, unlike the US where you can only find them in the summer (like, hello, my complexion doesn’t change according to the seasons!)
Also, in the US, I couldn’t find pastel-colored shells that were long-sleeved. They were all half-sleeves because they were meant for the summer, but I was afraid to buy half-sleeves because they didn’t have any available to try on so I wasn’t sure if the sleeves were really long enough. Also, I want shells that I can wear year round.
The other maaleh (maybe most important) is that the necklines are much higher then my US shells.
I also love the motto that is written on their bags: ??????? ??? ???? ?????? (Tznius is always in style).
“Maybe. Personally I think that smoking cigarettes is less classy.”
+1
p.s. I hope you are not insulted that you only got one point for that. +1 means “I am maskim” whereas +1,000 (for example) means either that I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart or that I want to compliment you.
In this case, I want to say that I agree, and not that I am complimenting you or thanking you, so you should not feel bad that you got a +1.
If you want a +1,000, you will have to either write something really nice to me (that I will want to thank you for) or write something that deserves a compliment.
I realize that, and it’s a really nice idea. My problem is that as I’m writing out your name, it feels like I’m c”v referring to you as Hashem.
I realize that’s not how it’s meant – but it feels that way to me.
The moderators were probably concerned that you were being oiver on “lo Sichaneim”. 🙂
Sometimes you can find a new area to move into that is relatively cheap. A friend of mine told me recently that a relative of hers bought an apartment for app. $20,000 (I don’t remember the exact amount, but it was something like that) in a particular area of Beit Shemesh. That was obviously very unusual, but it pays to be on the look-out for newer, less expensive areas. And if you find a really good deal, it might be kidai to find ways to borrow money.
Your daughter is a frog – bad idea!
ZD – when I said “comes up in a conversation” I wasn’t referring to their personal actions. I didn’t mean “if they start talking about what they do”. I meant if they bring it up as a philosophical discussion – for example, if they ask you your opinion on this issue. But you’re right – even then it can be sticky, especially if you are dealing with relatives, and especially if it’s a personal issue for the person.
Each situation is different and requires a lot of thought as to the best way to handle that particular situation. So it is not really possible to talk about what should be done in any specific given situation.
My point was simply that one should not be embarrassed or uncomfortable sticking up for the Torah’s point of view. When dealing with not-Frum people, it can be hard not to feel uncomfortable or apologetic. Especially in today’s pluralistic mind-set. That is where LB’s comment about Amalek comes into play. We have to make sure that we are unaffected by the world around us, and we have no problem sticking up for the Torah, and most importantly, we are not uncomfortable or embarrassed about our beliefs. And this is a challenge for everyone.
How this plays itself out in a specific situation will depend on many factors. But the important thing is that if you choose not to say something in a given situation, it should not be out of discomfort or embarrassment or even a “live-and-let-live” attitude, but only because you don’t think it will be helpful to say anything in this particular situation.
And if you do choose to say anything, it should not be out of hatred or judgmentalism, but only out of love for the person, passion for the emes of Torah, and a desire to stick up for the Torah and to help the person come closer to Hashem.
RY – +1
FuturePotus – even if the creators asked Daas Torah, I think it is each poster’s responsibility to ask their own sheilah (if they feel it is necessary) and not to assume there is a heter.
I also think that IN GENERAL, it makes more sense for most people to marry someone from a similar background. But of course, that is a generalization, and it depends a lot on the people. But most people do relate better to people from a similar background.
When two people get married, it can be very difficult at first since they are two different people from two different families who may have different ideas about many aspects of how a home should be run and how husbands and wives should relate to each other, etc. The more different your backgrounds, the more difficulties that are more likely to arise.
Many of these things are things that people don’t even think about and just take for granted that everyone does things that way. I know two different couples, who after they got married, the dishes were piling up in the sink for a few days until each of them realized that they each assumed it was the other one’s job to wash the dishes.
That is a minor example, but it can come up with other things as well.
Someone just recently told me that while most people go to shadchanim, most people don’t end up getting married through a shadchan.
I don’t know if it’s true or not, and as Meno pointed out, it might depend which people. I would guess that people who are well-connected are more likely to be set up by people they know.
Going to a shadchan is hishtadlus. According to the Sifrei mussar, when you do hishtadlus, it doesn’t necessarily mean that Hashem will bring your yeshua directly through your hishtadlus. Hashem won’t bring your yeshua unless you do your hishtadlus, but He might not bring it directly through your hishtadlus. The only criteria is that the hishtadlus must be reasonable.
It seems to me that going to at least one or two or three shadchanim is reasonable hishtadlus, and then one can leave it up to Hashem to send your zivug through whatever means He chooses. (you may also need other means of hishtadlus as well.)
I think it’s offensive to women that they apologized. The problem is that (like most people in the world who aren’t Frum Jews, and even some Frum Jews), they have no understanding of what tznius is about. Therefore, they probably thought it was demeaning to women that there were no pictures of women, and that is probably why they felt a need to apologize.
The problem is that they are wrong -tznius is not demeaning to women. It’s a lack of tznius that is demeaning to women.
I can see why someone who did not have a Torah chinuch might not understand that when it comes to certain tznius issues, but when it comes to advertising, it should be very obvious to anyone.
As you pointed out,LB, the feminists should be up in arms over this.
Once when I was on a date, I mentioned that I am bad at languages. The guy said, “You probably sing like a frog.” I was like, “true, but you weren’t supposed to be able to figure that out.”
If you do find a way to get money, please let me know….
I think that a teenage girl I know once mentioned that her teacher used to chew gum. She explained to her students that it’s because she was on a diet.
Or maybe I got the story wrong, and that’s why she allowed this girl to chew gum in class. Or maybe it was both.
It is true that you have to be very wary of giving tochacha. Especially nowadays when few people know how to give tochacha and few know how to accept it.
So you are right about that, ZD. However, the issue is not about whether or not you will lose your job (as Time pointed out). That is self-centered. The issue is what is the most effective way to influence this particular person. That is the issue of concern here. And in most cases of alternative lifestyles, tochacha is unlikely to be very helpful.
If it does come up in a conversation (brought up by him, not you), you should not be afraid or embarrassed to acknowledge (firmly yet kindly) the Torah’s position on the topic, while being sympathetic to his situation.
lol, when I started reading it, I thought it was recent. It could have been…
If you need the money, you need the money regardless of whether you’re learning or working. Obviously, it’s better not to “schnor” if you don’t have to, but if you have to, you have to. It sounds like you are working hard and doing your best, so there is nothing to feel ashamed of if you are not making ends meet.
Maybe you should try to find some other solutions first. Is there anywhere you can cut expenses? Can you try getting a tuition break?
I think you should try speaking to Mesila. Maybe they can try to find an alternative solution. Of course, if you really need to “schnor” then you have no choice. But that should be a last-solution – only if you can’t come up with anything else.
What exactly do you mean by schnorring? Do you mean going door-to-door? If so, that should really only be a final solution after you have exhausted all other possibilities.
Personally this is what I would do (more or less in order)”
1. Daven and say parshas haMan.
2. See if I can cut expenses anywhere
3. Take on an additional job even if it means sleeping less (and spending Shabbos sleeping to make up for it)
4. Figure out if I can find a job that pays more. Maybe start studying/training for something that will pay more. (although the Chovos halevavos recommends against switching fields to something that is not “matim” for you just because it sounds like it pays better).
5. Borrow from gemachim
6. Beg or borrow from family members
7. Borrow from friends
8. Try to find an organization or B’aal Tzedaka who will help me
9. Keep davening the whole time. If you borrow, you have to daven that you will have the money to pay back.
“I doubt girls, or boys, in religious schools would see how big they can blow a piece of bubble gum outside of class (btw gum was also assur in public school). At least it probably was frowned upon or at least not encouraged.”
The boys in my class used to throw spit balls during math. Speaking of gross…
Something to do with math being bitul Torah……??
Does Little Froggie sing like a frog?
rebshidduch – that’s what I meant. I meant that you were feeling pressurred to get married, unlike LB who sounds like she wasn’t.
Regardless of where the pressure is coming from, the point is that you feel pressure, and that makes you feel that you have travelled a “long difficult road” and that is why LB was sympathizing with you.
Rebshidduch, like Winnie the Pooh, I know many girls from modern backgrounds who married learning boys.
I basically agree with what she wrote and think it is wise advice.
However, in one sense, I may have a slightly different perspective. I have known all types of “learning boys”. The typical super-Yeshivish (sociologically speaking) Lakewood boy is only one type. There are many boys who come from similar backgrounds to you who are learning. There are also baalei teshuvas. And there are boys who come from something in between your background and a “Lakewood-type” background as well. Most of the shtark girls I know who came from modern backgrounds married shtark boys from similar backgrounds and did not marry Lakewood boys.
While you should definitely be striving to grow in your Avodas Hashem, and while this may mean moving to a more Torahdik community, you also don’t want to put yourself into a situation where you are trying to fit in to a community in which you don’t fit (sociologically speaking) and trying to go out with boys who are not really the right type for you.
I’m not saying that you can’t go out with Lakewood boys, but there may be boys from other backgrounds who are just as sincere about Torah and Avodas Hashem, and those boys might be more matim for you.
Winnie the Pooh mentioned Passaic. That might be a nice idea for you. If not Passaic, I’m sure there are other places that would be good for you. Lakewood might be a nice place for you to live as well, but then I think you will have to make sure to speak to shadchanim outside of Lakewood as well.
It’s possible that SYAS is a good option for you, since you might be able to find learning boys who are not from Yeshivish backgrounds there. But I
think that it should be in addition to speaking to real-life shadchanim and not instead of.
Rebshidduch, the reason I asked you what advice I gave previously that didn’t work was because it will help me to figure out what advice to give now.
The truth is that I’m not sure I can help you to get a mentor. It is very hard to do these things over an anonymous website where no one can speak too freely. I have tried before and not been successful. And apparently I tried with you as well.
I don’t know where you live or who you are or where you go to school, etc. And you can’t give me too much information.
What you need is someone who can give you advice about getting a mentor, but someone with whom you can talk more freely and they can speak to you more freely. Maybe there is another trustworthy online source where you have that option. I don’t mean a chatroom.
I am thinking of some kind of Frum website which has people (preferably experts) whom you can ask advice from on a one-on-one level. Maybe you can write to one of Aish.com’s advice columns. Or maybe you can write to the Yated’s Shidduch roundtable.
If none of those work, maybe you can find something similar. Or maybe you have a friend or teacher in real life whom you can ask about this (how to find someone to talk to). And truthfully, if you have no one in real life whom you are comfortable asking such a question to, then maybe you need to work on building such connections before you are ready to think of getting married.
Marriage is wonderful (so I’ve been told), but it’s hard work, especially at the beginning. You need a support system before you get married, imho.
I’m sorry I can’t help you further. But I really hope that you find someone who can.
Have you considered going to seminary or taking classes in a seminary? In a seminary, you would have opportunities to find Rebbeim or Rebbetzins or teachers whom you can connect with. Either they can be your mentors or they can help you to find one.
I don’t know where you are located, but if it’s realistic, have you tried Ohr Nava? I think that might be a great place for you.
edited. It is not advisable to recommend websites that you do not know to be safe.
Rebshidduch – I don’t think you should follow my advice. I think you should listen to LF instead. After all, unlike me, he has a chiyuv to learn Torah, so he must know more Torah than I do. Also, he has more daas than I do.
Oh wait, but if you don’t listen to me, you won’t listen to him, so that’s no good….
What did I suggest that didn’t work?
Rebshidduch – her point was that because she didn’t feel pressure, her situation was not as hard as yours in terms of shidduchim (although it may have been in other ways.) On the other hand, you apparently feel pressurred to get married, so that is why you feel that it’s been a “long hard road” even though you are only 20.
147 – good points. I would just add though, that Kibud Av v’aim and money are not the only issues here. It’s the emotional and relationship issues that would concern me the most:
1. How will this affect your relationship with your parents? What can you do to make sure that it doesn’t have a negative affect? What should you say to them?
2. How will going against your parents affect you emotionally (even if technically kibud av v’eim doesn’t apply in this case)? What can you do to make sure that it doesn’t affect you negatively?
3. How difficult will it be too get married without your parents’ emotional support? How can you find a way to manage? Do you have another support system in place before you get married? Marriage is hard. Shana Rishona is hard. You need to have some kind of support system in place BEFORE you get married.
4. Are you really ready to get married? If you have some kind of mentor, they might be able to help you answer that question.
5. Is there someone who can give you advice before or during the dating process?
Bottom line, as I wrote above and as 147 wrote, you may need some kind of Rav/Rebbetzin/mentor before you start dating.
Speak to a Rav/Rebbetzin/mentor. If you don’t have one, try to find one, preferably before you start going out.
Thank you (and Ubiquitin) for sticking up for my brother! (as in “acheinu kol bais Yisrael”)
definitely! Personally, I probably wouldn’t go out with him :), but that doesn’t mean he can’t be a tzaddik.
Rebshidduch – in what way is your situation the same as LB’s? And why are you assuming that shidduchim is hard for her?
There are definitely boys who learn on SYAS. But if you are looking for a boy who wants to learn indefinitely, I am not sure. I would imagine that it would be hard to find someone like that on SYAS, although you never know.
If you are looking for a YU boy who wants to learn long-term and/or go into chinuch, you might find him on SYAS. I doubt you would find a Lakewood long-term learner on SYAS though.
Turx is a person and a yid just like anyone else, and it is just as assur and cruel to speak loshon hora about him as it is anyone else.
About men and women talking in the CR. Sounds like many posters assume it’s okay because no contact is possible. I understand that that makes it less of a problem, but I find it interesting to use the word “heter” as though someone poskened that it’s totally fine this way (and clearly assur the other way).