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I also posted a relatively innocuous post, which was pending for a while and then disappeared. I reposted it a couple minutes later, word for word, and it went through fine. It may be a glitch.
“I’ll be Bach”
I’ll be Schubert.
It is interesting that many people, inc. CR posters, get a lot more offended by the burka ladies than by people who keep extremely low standards of tznius, or dress in a very immodest fashion. Perhaps it’s a sign of the times that people who are ‘too modest’ are worse than those who are blatantly immodest.
That’s not to say there’s nothing to be said about the burka ladies, especially since the practices of the movement in general is often extremely questionable. But let’s put this matter in perspective. Immodesty is many degrees worse, but how often do you hear people get truly, really offended by it?
This thread puts me in mind of Abie Rotenberg’s song ‘The Band’.
Also, would a violin be of any use? Also a certification in musical theory.
Mimicking a Talmid Chochom is decidedly distinct from ch’vsh being mevazeh one. Of course, each case is difference, and one person’s harmless Purim shpiel is another’s spilling blood. But the tradition of mimicking one’s rebbeim, especially on Purim, in a fond, non offensive manner, is well established. Although of course due caution should be taken with so serious a risk. And copying and making fun of are two different things.
On a minor further note, by a happy coincidence I was present at the event mentioned in the OP. Yekke2 has done well to camouflage some of the details and ensure anonymity for all involved. but as a witness, I personally cannot really understand yekke2’s quandary, as by all accounts his actions were suitable to the occasion, and to the to my eyes undoubted slight against the Talmid Chochom concerned. But I would have to read through the thread more thoroughly before I could profess anything other than almost complete ignorance.
I have to agree with Alter, the Thead Titler, on this one.
We can debate the rights and wrongs of this action for a long time, and doubtless will, but let’s not get overboard with this.
Being in learning is not about whether you would be able to pass a test.
I challenge anybody to argue this point.
Okay, sorry about that. I assumed there was an error, and when my next posts also disappeared I couldn’t for the life of me fathom what I’d done wrong. I’ll bear it in mind for next time…
Mods: Is there a glitch or were my posts deleted? This is a rare occurence for me, and I hope I in no way offended anybody.
No one was offended, referenced characters just weren’t on the “approved” list 😉
?
Huh?
Yekke2:
“Friends of shapes and sizes…”
To quote a mutual friend of considerable shape and size, “You wouldn’t be talking about me now, would ya?”
Alex Clare may be frum, but his music is not for a frum audience, and I think he’d tell you that himself. Just thought I’d point that out.
Yekke2:
I’m a little late to this thread, and I somewhat regret that now.
I appreciate your recalcitrance, and your commensurate sensitivity. The calls for you to respond may be putting you between a rock and a hard place, but I think I agree with the view that this forum is hardly a platform for any form of protest, or unnecessary offence, if you see what I mean. I trust your judgement, which has proven exemplary thus far. Good luck…
Mod-29:
I was afraid this might happen… Sorry, as per the aim of this thread, I was being contrary, and arguing for a point of view I by no means hold. I thought I did a pretty good job of it too, and that my purpose was self-evident. I clearly didn’t do as good a job as I thought…
Bravo! 🙂
I wrote a longer post in which I expressed sympathy with Shopping613’s position, although that does not equal a wholesale endorsement. But my point was more about my general disappointment with the direction <i>some</i> mainstream frum artists are heading in. I do not believe this is an indictment on the entire Jewish musical scene. Having similarly diverse musical tastes, I appreciate your desire for more variety, but I also understand the viewpoint that wider exposure is problematic. I don’t want to set the cat amongst the pigeons, so I think I’ll leave it there, seeing as I’m not really au fait with your respective opinons.
RebYidd23 makes a good point.
Niche musical tastes are catered for so extensively in the secular world largely because even a tiny minority of the world’s population equals a marketable demand, especially in today’s interconnected world. The amount of frum people that would have an interest in, for example, heavy metal, even were they exposed to it enough for some to develop a taste for it, would be negligible.
Yekke2:
In one of your previous points (The one at 9:08, to be exact), you ran through all the reasons why this exercise is confusing. However, one possible outcome you failed to anticipate is that I don’t actually believe what I was saying, and that I, arguing for a position I do not hold, convince you of my correctness, you yourself holding a false position merely for the sake of argument. Just something to consider…
Mod-29:
Firstly, hoping you are well, nice to be back. Secondly… Um, I’m a little bit confused why you told me off before… have I missed something?
I’m sorry to say this, or to do anything to halt your fun, but this thread simply doesn’t work on any level.
It’s one thing to argue about something one cares about. You have a moral standpoint, a platform from which to pontificate. Arguing is something that only makes sense when you actually believe in what it is you are saying. Simply endeavoring to be contrary is an insult to the entire essence of reasonable discussion.
Furthermore, even were that not the case, it is virtually impossible to be truly convincing when simply pretending to believe as you do. It’s one thing to defend a position that matters to you. Your brain is fully employed in trying to find the gaps in the oppositions defenses and the inherent truth and logic in your own. But when your only aim is to argue against yourself, you’re simply not going to do a good job, no matter how hard you try. The lack of emotional investment means that your bound to be destroyed in a reasonable discussion by anybody that actually believes in what they’re saying, even an intellectual inferior.
Also, as an intellectual exercise it’s severely flawed, as what most of you are doing is merely trying to find the humourous upside to a bad situation, such as snakes in your house. That’s not making a proper case for an argument, that’s simply making jokey comments about the potential upsides of a particular situation. But finding the silver lining, whilst worthwhile and undoubtedly fun, is not the same as arguing that the cloud itself doesn’t exist, or isn’t affecting you. Pointing out how the upsides of, for example, having snakes in your house, outweigh the obvious negatives, would be making an argument. Making funny comments about stupid positives is not. As a point of discussion, indeed, as a thread, it is morally and intellectually bankrupt.
Sorry, it had to be said. This thread is not only unworkable and pointless, but people aren’t even fulfilling the supposed premise. I appreciate the effort involved, but let’s not fool ourselves this is anything other than a ridiculous charade.
Thank You. Whoever you are (and I think I have a pretty good idea…). Thanks. Let’s please get this one restarted.
akuperma: You make good, well reasoned points. however…
Scotland is not s ‘junior partner’ of the United Kingdom. As per the status quo, it is merely a part of a wider, integrated country that punches far above its weight politically. And even were it demonstrably a ‘junior partner’, considering that its population makes up just 8.3% of the UK’s, there’s good reason for it. And for a group of 5+ million people, its votes are worth more, and they have dual voting rights unavailable to most of the rest of the UK. If they argue that they feel like a different country, and that Scotland should be distinct from the rest of the UK for purely nationalist reasons, that’s one thing. But to make the argument that they’re somehow hard done by at present, or that they’d be more powerful or richer alone, have no basis whatsoever.
It is true that Scotland is significantly to the left of England, but not to the extent the SNP would have you believe. The Tories are the second biggest party in the Scottish Parliament, ahead of Labour, and garner a significant vote share there in general elections. One of the biggest successes of the SNP is getting non-Scots to equate them inextricably with the Scottish people, when in actual fact they only represent a segment of them. Also, this does not not justify independence. Firstly, the numerous Labour governments we’ve had, and almost certainly will have, come in off the back of Scottish votes, including the 13 years of Labour we’ve literally just had. Secondly, a slightly different political tilt is not a valid reason for secession. It’s basically saying that the way we currently vote in general elections defines us as a nation. Which is frankly ridiculous, as these people have no way of knowing for sure what position the next generation will take.
Alright, Yekke2, invitation accepted.
I think there are several issues at play here. It would take a lot more energy than I’m willing to expend at the moment to give an exhaustive response, but I’ll try and cover as much as possible.
Firstly, they would quite obviously be making a massive mistake to secede. Has independence been achieved in 2014, they would now be bankrupt. The entire case for independence rested on oil receipts that were off by a factor of a couple thousand. In order to remain as a functioning economy, the Scottish government would have had to slash spending, cut services and raise taxes. The Barnett formula guarantees them far more spending per head than any other part of the UK, to a massive extent. They, and the devolved government’s big Government and liberal policies, are quite literally subsidised heavily by the rest of the country.
On a purely emotional level, as divorces go it would be an incredibly illogical one. Scotland and the rest of the UK share so much of their culture, makeup and history, both would be diminished significantly by losing the other, although Scotland would be by far the worst off. Their cultures, peoples and history are inextricably intertwined. The nationalist sentiment, fuelled by Hollywood garbage and a misguided sense of marginalisation, is stupid at best. The countries, the nations, share a common language, army, monarch, history and creed. It is virtually impossible to distinguish a truly native Scot from many of those living throughout the UK.
Besides, most of the SNPs claims make no sense whatsoever.
Their argument that they are dominated politically by England is ridiculously ignorant. The Prime Minister before last was Scottish. The last Labour government, in power for 13 years, did so off the back of Scottish votes. Constituency sizes and compositions mean that Scottish votes, per person, carry far more power. And that is without even taking into account devolution, which gives them an unprecedented level of local control, including over spending and criminal law, without losing any of their voting rights over the rest of the United Kingdom. They get to vote on issues relating to the rest of the country that do not effect them, whilst they have been granted powers over their area that excludes the national Parliament.
And even were this not the case, it has scarcely been 3 years since we had what the SNP themselves called a once-in-a-generation referendum, which the Union convincingly won. To push for another within three years is beyond ridiculous.
Their claim that Britain’s exit from the EU, and the effect this will have, justify giving the ‘Scottish people’ another vote, but to leave the UK to remain in the EU makes no sense, considering that Scottish/English trade is five times as valuable as Scottish/European trade. If anything, Brexit makes the case for even closer Union stronger.
And much of the momentum behind the nationalist movement is due to Scotland being more left wing and liberal than the rest of the country, particularly England. For one thing, political views, especially only slightly differing ones, are not a valid reason for secession. Political positions change like sand in the wind, and to form a new country and break up another because of this is wrong. Besides, as mentioned before, Scottish politicians, parties and votes have had too much influence over the UK democratic process, not too little.
Anyway, in summation, the case for Scottish independence is very weak, and that’s even supposing the Scottish can be clearly distinguished from the rest of the UK’s population, which is doubtful, and that the right to secede is even one that should be codified into law. Those making the case for the Union should not bother proving, rightly, that Scotland would be weaker and poorer after secession, but should focus on the two nations shared history, trade and culture.
There, Yekke2. That enough for ya?
Second, the outlets that you neglected to mention are if anything more kosher than many in Israel. It would take a while for me to explain myself more clearly, which I’m not gonna bother with now when half asleep, but I am pretty firm in my conviction that Gateshead, as a place, has plenty to offer and occupy most bochurim, yes, even ‘virtually all’. Eating out is the only department I can think of in which it is severely lacking.
Yekke2: Firstly, I think you massively underrate what Gateshead has to offer. I think it appears boring from the outside, but after experiencing it it becomes apparent that there is a lot more than meets the eye.
There are two entirely separate issues here.
The behaviour of those protesters in the video, and the wider political issue.
There is a correlation between the two issues, but not necessarily causation. Wild, violent behaviour by some angry protesters is not an indictment of the entire movement, any more than agreeing with the views of the protesters validating bad behaviour.
The protesters acting violent in the video were wrong in acting in the manner they did, even if provoked. A Yid is expected and required to mantain a certain standard no matter what the situation, and some of these people failed miserably in that regard. Obviously the fact that this video is taken in isolation makes it much harder to see what’s going on, but that doesn’t excuse these actions. Condoning the protest does not equal condoning what took place in those few sayings. And obviously both in terms of touching a woman and hitting anyone, this is ossur.
Having said that, the only truly violent behaviour in this video is by a very young child. It’s impossible to say if this child was badly bought up, in a difficult situation or even just ADHD. To judge all of them on the actions of a few, especially the actions of a child, is plainly ridiculous.
I’m not going to go into the wider politics, firstly because of how incredibly long that would take and because there is little in this world more mind-numbingly irritating and convoluted than the ins and outs of Israeli politics. I’ll leave that unpleasant task to the rest of you.
In conclusion: Yes, those who were violent in the video were wrong and almost certainly oiver several issurim, but the most significant actions were by a child, and we have no way of knowing what led to that.
I see that AJ’s, Senters and Brasil’s have been mentioned.
Knowing bochurim who have attended Senters, I have a very high opinion of it. For those I know that have gone there it has done an excellent job. I don’t know as much about the other two, but I do know one of the yungerleit/rebbeim at AJs reasonably well, and the impression I get from him and others is positive. And Brasil’s also has a very good reputation, but I know little by way of details.
Imrei B might be for slightly older bochurim, and is maybe a little too far in the other direction from, for example, Lev Aryeh, but if it is actually the kind of place you’re considering, it is fantastic at what it does.
But then again, if you think Lev Aryeh is too intense for your son, Be’er HaTorah may be a stretch. It’s a great place, as is Nezer HaTorah, but it doesn’t sound like what you’re looking for.
I have to fully read this thread to get a better picture, but have you considered Imrei Binah or perhaps Applebees? They seem less intense than Lev Aryeh whilst still providing a good level of care and attention. Especially Imrei B.
Rif: Gateshead is literally the perfect place for virtually any bochur; it’s almost as if it was custom built for that purpose. The only serious difference I can think of is eating out, which admittedly is virtually impossible in Gateshead. But boring… no.
Frankly, I didn’t consider that comparison worthy of a response. I was very specifically displaying my disgust at not only the low moral standards of ‘pop culture’ in general and Israeli ‘pop culture’ specifically, but at the fact that the artistic standards are through the floor too. Even putting aside the moral repugnancy in question, it’s simply rubbish, and the Israeli cultural scene is particularly embarrassing. In neither respect does the above comparison work. Plainly there is a world of difference between pastoral Polish melodies and modern pop, and besides at least some of those tunes were actually nice enough to be worth kashering. Thanks for your help, though, Mammale.
Secular Israeli culture is frankly embarrassing. It’s a rotten facsimile of Western pop culture with ‘traditional’ Jewish influences, and it’s facile, immature and laughable. That the purported ‘Jewish State’ feels the need to copy Western pop culture is bad enough, without it being a crude, facile cheap version. They’re genuinely bad at it. And as to the opening question, neither are okay, and furthermore, neither are really worth your time anyway.
Sorry, never mind.
kitov – ?
#nicetobeback
I will not buy this record, it is scratched.
My hovercraft is full of eels.
Comlink-X::
That’s what happens when all you know is that it was his sled.
And just when I’ thought that would be my favourite CR line of recent times, you throw in an excellent reference to my second favourite Kane.
#spurs #hesoneofourown #donttryundeerstandanyofthat #hashtagban
NE, perhaps you could quote the Scriptures instead of the Script?
Superb. Utterly superb. But to be fair, as regards your confusion, my posts made more sense in context. Feel free to reread them. Bust of Pallas, anyone?
#nevermore
Anthony Horowitz’s books do mostly aim at younger readers, but his work, taken as a whole, aims as old if not older than the Artemis Fowl series, or indeed Percy Jackson. And some of his other books, such as The Switch, are excellent at any age. And whilst we’re talking about Artemis Fowl, Oein Colfer is a superb author, and some of his other books are definitely worth checking out. Airman is excellent, I cannot recommend it highly enough. Involving, interesting and very suitable.
yekke2:
Literally cannot think of anything to add. Superb post.
You’re right. When I wrote that I was aware that Harry Potter is by no means perfect when it comes to suitability. I mentioned it as a touchstone, something to kick the discussion of with, and nothing more suitable came to mind. And to that list I’ll add anything by Anthony Horowitz.
#amateurdramaticsban
#explainedontheKTCRIMthread
Sparkly: I’m impressed that you want to find suitable material to read. I’m going to kick off by saying that, whatever your age, Harry Potter is a masterpiece. I’m sure you’ve already read it, but on the off chance you haven’t, I cannot recommend a series more highly.
What books are currently reading? It would be easier to suggest good books if we had a little more information about what kind of books you’re looking for. There is an enormous range out there, after all.
lilmoid ulelamaid: Since I respect your attempts to watch out for others, I’ll give you the condensed form of the answer I deleted. I wasn’t going to respond, as per the #amdramban, but I will say this.
There is nothing in that post that I need to apologise for.
And now, can we please just talk about books.
yekke2: Irony duly noted.
golfer: I found a particularly pertinent one with regard to my earlier posts about engaging with the CR. It should be approved momentarily on the KTCRIM thread.
#amdramban
I wrote a response. A pretty good one, if I say so myself. Then I deleted it. Let’s talk about books.
#amdramban
Yekke2: I hope, nay, pray, that that was a postmodern ironic parody of the very phenomenon I was addressing. Bearing that in mind, I had hoped people would realise that repeatedly posting #hashtagban whilst simultaneously hashtagging was meant in the same vein of irony as your post above.
#imeantamateurdramatics #amdram #amdramban #hashtagban
Sparkly:
All I’ve done is agree that the chances are this promising discussion, that you have done well to start, will probably fulfil Yekke2’s prediction that it will veer off course into a far less interesting one. Chances are it will end up with how insulted you or others feel, with or without just cause, or about exactly what Yekke2 said it will be about.
You could always answer my question from earlier. I’d like to know what books you already like so we can suggest you ‘good books to read’. I went against my own better judgement to engage, and I now fear I was right to absent myself temporarily, and that Yekke2 was right in his prediction.
Prove us wrong.
Were I so inclined, I would say that continuing to profess oneself insulted after already having been apologised to, and despite there being no definite insult in the first place, is nothing more than being needlessly over-dramatic. But to engage with these dramatics is to violate my own am-dram ban #amdramban. So I’ll answer your question and try leave it at that.
No. That in no way clarifies, or justifies, your response. The discussion is on halachic and logical grounds. You’ve stated your emotion, which is that you’re ‘very happy’ about it. And I’m glad. But that’s not a reasoned response. Feel free to say you’re not going to provide one, but don’t act as if you have. I’m asking you, as a dissenting voice, to provide a backing for your answer. I don’t expect you to have one, your subtitle indicates that would be the case. Prove me wrong.