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modchebp:
Exactly how do you qualify to stay in kollel, seeing as a test proves nothing?
” in my opinion testing should be mandatory right away, before marriage as well.”
Again, testing will not accomplish anything. Except maybe turning people off of learning.
“To Patur aval assur I dont say that a boy who is slow or doesnt do good on a test should not be in kollel.Let him take a oral test ,let him talk in learning with the rosh chaburah,or let him learn in kollek where they dont pay.If someone is using his time properly he should not have a problem”
My point was that a test has no bearing on whether you are using your time properly.
“The enterance exam is not what is important its the fact that they know that after 1 month they will get a bechina”
Should a boy be denied the chance to learn because he can’t do well on a test? Maybe he is not a good test taker. Maybe he is not so smart. Neither of those have any bearing on his learning. If you want to weed out the boys who don’t belong, a better way to do it would be to check who are the ones that are not in the beis medrash when they should be.
” Men who plan on being in kollel should have to pass an “entrance exam”, as well as show a true love and interest in learning, in order to be allowed in, just like any other profession that pays.”
What exactly do you propose that this entrance exam consist of?
To correct all misinterpretations:
I was not talking about the 12 step program. When Daas Yachid said “This is what PAA was talkng about.” he was not referring to the 12 swtep pogram. He was referring to the fact that the thread was degenarating as I had predicted.
Poppa Bar Abba: Based on what are you assuming that I know nothing about the 12 step program?
Vancouver and WITS? Interesting combination.
“I was not commenting upon her desire to daven, but on your statements that show a disdain for for both Torah and secular learning.”
My statements in no way show a disdain for Torah or secular learning. I was merely trying to point out that a girl has no chiyuv of talmud torah, while she soes have a chiyuv of tefila. And secular studies do not even come close to the importance of davening.
All kidding aside, is the duel taking place? And if it is Wolf needs a second. I’m already Klach’s second. Maybe I could be both. It would be interesting attempting to duel myself.
“This kind of hostile attitude towards learning (both kodesh and chol) and school is a big problem. It infects our children and gives them an excuse to neglect their studies and stunt their intellectual growth”
How does saying that for a girl, davening is more important then learning, demonstrate a hostile attitude toward learning?
“What’s wrong with a CC guy trying to figure out how many others are here?”
Nothing.
“He didn’t ask for opinions on CC guys”
But that’s what it will inevitably become. Eizehu chacham haroeh es hanolad.
What exactly is the purpose of this thread? I can see this easily spiraling out of control. THis thread should be closed before many grievous sins are committed.
” Its like saying actually cooking is far more important than anything I could ever learn in culinary school.”
I think you should check out the thread about metaphors. Your comparison is patently ridicilous. The case in hand is not a situation of davening vs. learning the requisite skills for davening properly. It is a case of davening properly vs. a class which is at best, an intellectual stimulation.
I’ll be your second
“And the sefarim of the past hundred years are chopped liver that made things up??”
They are not chopped liver. I was merely pointing out that something which is so obviously gezeila should have been mentioned somewhere in the gemara, Rambam, Tur, or Shulchan Aruch, yet we find that it isn’t.
“popa…its nice to know youre a chofetz chaim guy 😀 join the club!”
What gave it away, the car or the shmuz sticker?
“is Eliyahu considered “min hashamayim” and how does that affect teikus”
The MaharatzChiyus has a chakira where he says that ???? ?? ????? ??? does not apply to a machlokes in metzius. He the n attempts to show that teikus are always deep down a machlokes in metzius. The techeiles debate certainly centers on a machlokes in metzius. Presumably then, ???? ?? ????? ??? would not apply and therefore Eliyahu, a bas kol, or any other form of heavenly intervention should be able to resolve the issue.
“Men who will learn r different and can enjoy the 4th floor.. ;”)
What exactly is the difference between men learning in kolel and men who will learn in kolel?
“Gezel Sheinah is considered Gezel.”
Really? Gezel Sheina is not mentioned even once in all of shas and poskim. The first mention of it is in sefarim within the past hundred or so years. (There is however a concept of hezek shaina – see bava basra and the meiri)
“”chasidim harishonim”
I checked the Artscroll Berachos on this and a wonderful insight is brought down.
The Gemara asks how their needs were done and their knowledge of Torah kept. The focus is on the term “kept” rather than acquired.
This implies that they had already fully acquired Torah previously and only then were able to become the “chasidim harishonim”. This is based upon the dictum that one who is deficient in Torah knowledge can not be a true chasid.
Based upon this, their spending 9 hours in Davening only occurred after they mastered Torah. Hence, the concern was only how they kept on to their Torah knowledge, and not how they acquired their Torah knowledge.”
As I’m sure you noticed, only regarding Torah does it say “kept”. A woman has no chiyuv talmud torah. THerefore davening would outway learning. Regarding work, the gemara does not ask “how was their work kept?”, rather it asks “how was their work done”?, to which it answers that they were able to do just as much in less time. Clearly then, a girl who needs more time to daven should definitely sacrifice other things from her schedule.
RSRH
If the class that is being missed is a class on how to daven then yeah you are right. But I highly doubt that that is the case. More likely it is either a secular studies class or some sort of chumash class where the girls just memorize long and complicated Rambans, both of which are far less important (for a girl) then davening.
“Your similes are brilliant. I didn’t see any metaphors, though.”
Every simile is by definition a metaphor.
“That seems like just the kind of belief that would come from not learning anything in shcool.”
Instead of just dismissing my claim by insinuating that I did not learn anything in school, would you care to give an example of something learned in school that is more important than davening?
“Are you implying that anyone not davening shemona esrei for an hour is not dovening properly?”
Not at all. But for some people it is.
It’s not an assertion that you can be mechalel shabbos for pikuach nefesh without a navi.
“Wolf: You weren’t wrong. You should stick to your guns until you’re proven wrong, not just asserted.”
Why not?
“That means you are missing a full period per day (at least).”
Davening properly is more important than anything a girl will learn in school.
I don’t get the joke
“and the Rambam says it does apply.”
The Rambam discusses a case of calling the police for a car alarm which may or may not have resulted in a ticket?
“When did you try the gemaras test on indigo?”
I never tried it personally but others have and they found that both murex trunculus and plant indigo passed the test.
It seems to be that been misinterpreted. When I first mentioned the gemara about the chasidim harishonim, it was not intended to prove that one should daven longer. It very well may be that we are not on the level to spend nine hours a day on davening. The reason for mentioning the gemara was as a response to those who claimed that if you spend so much time davening then all your other obligations will be neglected. To that the gemara says that those who spent such a long time on davening had siyata dishmaya that they could accomplish more in less time.
Why does everyone here seem to find it unreasonable that someone could daven shemona esrei for an hour? If someone can really do that, it’s amazing, and should not be discouraged.
“I don’t think he’s a moser, certainly not a vaday (certain).
(If he’s a safek moser, he’d be patur aval assur ?.)”
The original question asked by Mr. Wolf was how can he get rid of his moser status. Which means that he is taking for granted that he is a moser.
“What klach said is a paraphrase of the Rambam’s endorsement of killing a moiser. It means “whoever kills him first gets the merit”.
I believe it’s an exact quote. I do not believe that it applies here.”
If he is in fact a moser, why wouldn’t it apply?
Raphael Kaufman, chacham, and anyone else who has the following misconception.
The gemara’s chemical test that I am referring to is not putting the wool in bleach. The test involve a mixture of urine, liquid alum and fenugreek juice. There is also a second test mentioned involving baking it in stale barley bread. Neither of those involve bleach.
“He said that the reason so many married women use “taking care of children” as a hetter to not daven is because they think they need 45 minutes to daven, when in reality all they need is 5 min to daven shemoneh esrei.”
Rav Reuven Feinsein shlita said that it is very important for women to say pesukei d’zimra
They seem to be singlehandedly solving the unemployment crisis.
You don’t need to be a navi to suspend halacha. Non-neviim can also suspend/change halacha (e.g. the chachamim instituting that shofar not be blown on shabbos.) The case on Mt. Carmel was a danger to the entire klal yisrael. Pikuach Nefesh for just one person is doche anything except the big three. The point being that a navi telling me to desecrate shabbos is no different then anyone telling me to desecrate shabbos – if there’s a valid reason such as pikuach nefesh then you listen. If there’s no valid reason then he’s a false navi and he gets the death penalty via strangulation.
The level of amaratzus in the CR is exceedingly disturbing
“A long Davening when you have other Torah specified obligations is not a Mitzvah. It is very similar to offering a sacrifice on a Bamah (an alter not in the Bais HaMikdash).”
Forgive me for not understanding the comparison between an Issur D’oraisa and a Talmud-sanctioned act of piety.
“To take a whole hour is a waste of your time and HaShem’s time.”
That is borderline heresy. Hashem does not have any time constraints.
“If the dye passes the test and comes from a creature matching the decription given, loc cit, then who is to say that it is not techeiles?”
What makes you think that we have understood the test correctly?
In fact plant indigo (i.e. kala ilan which is what the test was designed to expose as fraudalent) also passes the test, so clearly we are doing the test wrong.
“See my post right before this one.”
See my previous two posts (excluding the one where I asked you why not) where I addressed your claim.
“Or do you think that her yeshiva should allow her to start her day at 1PM if she wants to spend six hours davening?”
why not?
“So, if Eliyahu told me to (on a one-time basis) desecrate Shabbos, I probably would.”
Then if he told you to wear techeiles (on a one time basis) then you presumably you would wear it?
“Perhaps by his era there were no longer such spiritually inclined people; or there still were, but the special siyata dishmaya (Heavenly assistance) that allowed them to pray 9 hours a day was withdrawn???”
They didn’t spend nine hours on davening because they had siyata dishmaya. They got the siyata dishmaya because they spent nine hours on davening. The reason why the chassidim harishonim stopped existing is not because the siyata dishmaya was removed, but rather because people stopped spending so much time on davening. therefore, it stands to reason that even nowadays, if one spent extra time on davening then they would in turn recieve extra siyata dishmaya throughout the rest of the day.