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DY: There is a difference between saying that the safety of the people has nothing to do with it and saying that everyone will be safe if everyone just sits and learns and there is no army. There is also a difference between saying that the safety of the people has nothing to do with learning and between saying that more people working on more physical defense will create a safer country. There is a middle ground, and I think what Rebdoniel expressed is a legitimate opinion.
Being a nerd is never a bad thing (well, almost never).
PBA: No, Shev is Joseph. Also, Arur Hagever fits much better with the song that Baruch Hagever stole the tune to.
Syag: Ah. I see. No worries. It’s amusing. I noticed that it just got longer though. 73, am I in a race with Popa and crazybrit now?
I don’t get it Joe. Do you get your kicks making up random things about groups of people so as to facilitate less Achdus in Klal Yisrael? What’s your goal? There is no one, and I mean no one, in the YU camp (whose slogan is Torah Umadah) that believes anywhere near that Torah and science have equal value. The Yeshivah student in YU spends at least 8 hours in Seder/shiur a day while a maximum 5 hours in classes (maybe some science labs involve a little more class time, I’m not sure). You’re being stupid and Motzi Shem Ra on hundreds, if not thousands, of B’nei Torah (not to mention the tens of thousands of graduates and Baalei Batim that support YU’s Derech). The Mada in those who believe in Torah Umada is that the Mada enhances the Torah, nothing else. Math, history, sciences, etc. can all be used to understand Torah. If you’re actually interested in knowing what the people you needlessly hate so much believe (I doubt that you are, but if you are) then read some of R’ Aharon Lichtenstein’s works. You might realize that the people you so bluntly and casually dismiss are actually living the same Torah lifestyle you are.
But this whole thing is stupid. It is a semantics game played by those looking for a reason and excuse to dismiss other Jews. That’s why I always try to remember to put the words, “MO”, “Yeshivish”, “Chareidi”, etc. in quotes. They are pejorative terms that, unless necessary to describe one of the minute cultural differences, do nothing but massive harm to Hashem’s nation.
Syag: Oh, I just noticed. I finally have a subtitle. Yay! Can I ask where it came from, what it refers to, and how you did it?
DY: That is a nice Chilluk to make and it’s true for the vast majority of people (though I have heard otherwise normal and knowledgeable people throw the words “Srugi” or “Black Hatter” around as intended insults). But the prejudice is still there and it is definitely something that should be fought. It’s idiotic to judge a person based on externals like what type of Kippah is worn. But almost everyone does it. They don’t think it’s more important than what’s underneath the Kippah per se. But far too many times they’re just not interested in seeing what’s underneath after they see the Kippah that they don’t like.
Gamanit: That’s my point. And having such a memory doesn’t automatically make one a Gadol. Nor does a less pictorial memory preclude one from being a Gadol.
DY: Sadly, there are far, far too many people who think just like that.
I remember once attending a Shiur at a local Shul. The Shiur was given by one of the Balabatim. There happened to have been some representatives of the Agudah visiting this Shul (I don’t remember precisely why; I think they were visiting every Shul that has a Daf Yomi or something to be Mechazek them before the Siyum or something like that) asked the person if he wanted them to give the Shiur instead. He said no thank you and went on to present a brilliant bit of Lomdus that was exciting and still understandable for the Baalei Batim. One of the representatives when up to him afterwards and said he’s the first Srugi he’s ever met that’s also a Talmid Chacham.
Or, to quote the Marvelous Middos Machine: “There’s that boy with the funny-looking knitted Yarmulke… Why would he need a Gemara?”
WIY: The majority of Gedolim now (or ever) probably couldn’t do a pin test. It takes a certain type of memory. You can recite Shas word for word but still fail a pin test. You can ace a pin test and barely read Hebrew. Brony and Popa are both rightly saying (though probably for different reasons) that knowing where every word on the page is is in and of itself inherently meaningless. Nor should it be a yardstick that we measure Gedolim by. Some can do it; some can’t. It doesn’t make the ones that can do it greater than the ones that can’t.
Lander: That also is generally not accepted. We assume that not being Me’uneh when Shabbos starts is more important.
Toi: I think it’s like 3:47 or 48. It’s somewhere towards the end, if I recall correctly.
Toi: Didn’t see your post yesterday. I’ll look at the Gra again, but I’m pretty sure he says it depends on when it starts. Maybe it’s a different Gra. And the Rambam in the Moreh is Mechalek between a Matzeivah and other things because they stole using a Matzeivah before Mattan Torah.
Wolf: When I was given a pin test on Maseches Megillah when I was younger, the Rabbi didn’t actually put a pin through a Gemara. He just pointed to a spot on 2a and had me try to say whatever words were directly beneath it and then estimated (it’s not so hard) where that would be on every later page.
(I wasn’t given this test because I had a phenomenal memory. Rather, the Rabbi was trying to prove the Gadlus of certain people. My classmates knew that I had one of the best memories in the class and I got a grand total of 2 words right. He was showing how big Rabbis are so much smarter than even the smartest of us. He gave the same test to the other smartest people in the class.)
Ben: “Having a girlfriend” is a misrepresentation of what that T’shuvah actually says and makes him sound much, much more Meikil than R’ Moshe was on this issue. I don’t recall a T’shuvah on mixed seating at weddings, though. Could you share it if/when you find it please?
Just my hapence: She could weigh the same as a duck.
PBA: Even Zilberman guys can’t do pin tests, unless they’re geniuses to begin with, in which case they didn’t need to go to Zilberman’s.
WIY: I have met several people who can do passably well in several Masechtos (one guy is up to half of Shas and will probably be able to do all of this some day), but no one who can do the whole thing. I’m sure Rav Ovadiah could though. I do know someone who knows good chunks of Shas word for word Ba’al Peh, but his memory isn’t visual so he can’t do a pin test.
It should be noted, though, that modern inventions have made the pin test actually feasible. On an old Gemara, it was impossible because the same page in different Gemaras could come out differently, either by the binding being off by a little or the page not being printed at the same precise angle and things like that (look at two versions of an old Tal-Man Shas and start comparing, you’ll see that the same Dapim are a little different some times). Laser print and Gemaras like Oz Vehadar and Vilna have fixed that issue.
Charlie: Because there was not such a Chashash for Kalus Rosh in the Azarah during the rest of the year. At first, the Gedolei HaDor in Bayis Rishon and Sheini didn’t think there was a Chashash either. At some point during Bayis Sheini, they realized it was a problem. That everyone agrees to (Bimchilas Kevodo, I think DY misspoke when he said that those who hold it was D’Oraisa said it was there in Mayis Rishon).
Now comes R’ Moshe’s Chiddush. Yes, it is a Chiddush, but it is not beyond the pale of logic as ROB seems to contend. R’ Moshe asks a simple question. He says there is an Issur MiDivrei Kaballah of changing anything in the Beis Hamikdash. And we know that Ein Koach B’yad Chachamim La’akor Davar Min HaTorah B’kum V’asei. Building a balcony, even a temporary one, is being Over on this B’kum V’asei. Hence, it must be that there is a Din Min Hatorah saying to build a separation whenever there is a Chashash of Kalus Rosh. (I will try and find the Mekoros again because I lost the notebook I wrote this down in, but I think I remember once showing that R’ Moshe’s Chiddush could actually be shown as a Machlokes Rishonim; it had something to do with the Ra’avad on this issue. B”N when I get time I will look at the Rishonim again and try to piece together what I once had.)
And ROB, I have to speak out against this. Your nice statement to me rings absolutely false because you are showing more respect for me here than R’ Moshe. Everyone, especially someone knowledgeable, is entitled to disagree with even the Gedolei Haposkim if they feel that they have strong Ra’ayos (R’ Moshe says so himself; maybe they can’t disagree L’ma’aseh, but certainly in learning). But take great care in how you do it. A certain modicum of respect must be maintained, even if no disrespect is intended in your words.
Lander: That is not Muskam at all in the Poskim. It is definitely the “cooler” Shittah for Yeshivah Bochurim to say over and may even be a majority opinion (it probably isn’t though, Mistimas Divrei HaPoskim), but it’s not Muskam. The story with R’ Yisrael Salanter is brought down either that he did or didn’t make Kiddush, and I heard from a big Talmid Chacham that even if he did, it’s not a Ra’ayah because maybe he did it just to get the people to eat. (There is also apparently some discussion as to whether or not it actually happened, but I’m not so holding in that topic.)
I’m terrified of speaking in public, in any setting. The first time I subbed for a third-grade class was when I realized that being a Rabbi or a teacher was not for me. Nope.
Toi: That’s not L’kulei Alma. The Rambam in the Moreh might even be Mashma the opposite, but it’s vague so you can read in any way you want and it’s not Muchrach. The Gra (in YD 179:1 and 179:3, if I recall correctly) says that it depends on when it starts. The big Nafka Minah for something that we started but they stole and then we took from them, obviously, is engagement rings.
Bored: If your post had been the first on this thread, I don’t think there would have been much discussion at all. I think everyone would find that understandable.
DY and rob: R’ Moshe agrees that there was no Mechitzah until Bayis Sheni. That in and of itself is his proof. He says it must be a Din D’Oraisa that in any case of public religious matters in which there is a concern of Kalus Rosh that you must separate the sexes. That is the basis of his P’sak. Because if a balcony for women was just a normal part of the Beis Hamikdash, it wouldn’t prove that you have to have a balcony, only that there was one and therefore it’s probably a good idea. The fact that they were allowed to add to the Binyan proved that it must be a Din Min Hatorah to allow this.
Interestingly, Rav Moshe himself doesn’t seem to follow his rule completely. In OC 1:39 he seems to say that Min Hatorah anything relating to Kedushah needs a Mechitzah. But if I recall correctly in his T’shuvah about a co-ed book club that wants to give a D’var Torah (“Meeting Shel Society; I think it was in OC 3) I don’t think he requires a Mechitzah (I could be wrong about that though as I have not seen that T’shuvah in a very, very long time).
DY: That would be difficult as according to most Kol Isha is D’rabannan. If you say like R’ Moshe, it makes sense. You need a Passuk to prove that it’s enough of a Din D’oraisa to be Mevatel Hakol Biksav… Having seen a separation in the past (in Chumash) would only prove that it’s a Middas Chassidus or Eitzah Tovah, not that it’s an absolute Chiyuv (I guess that answer would work if you hold it’s D’Rabannan too).
WIY: I don’t research so many Minhagim. If the Jews did this first then it’s not Chukas Akum. But we also stole things from them. Things that we stole from them are Assur. I’ll take your word for this until I have time to properly research this later.
Well that was offensive. If you show me a source and it says what you say it says, that’s fine. I don’t argue for the sake of arguing. If you can prove me wrong, by all means. If you don’t want to debate it, then ask me not to reply. That’s your prerogative. But at least show your source.
son: Eruvin 4b Rashi D”H Aron Tisha. It’s clear that it’s talking about different Reshuyos.
Thegra: Rav Moshe was Mattir Kohanim to go to cemeteries? Can you source that or explain precise situations? Because as you said it it cannot be. In fact, that is such a ridiculous claim that I’m actually considering having someone I know ask R’ Dovid tomorrow just to disprove it.
Ummmm… will anyone agree with me when I say Chukas Hagoyim here?
son: No. Our use of the word Mechitzah is a borrowed term. The Halachah L’Moshe MiSinai about Mechitzin is referring to Hilchos Shabbos.
WIY: The point is that as languages develop and nuances change in both Hebrew and English, providing a direct word-for-word translation for every single possible permutation of every single Lashon Hakodesh Shoresh is impossible. Thus, I can’t definitively say that a word means fun in Lashon Hakodesh, but it’s very Mistaber that a nounal Kal form of the Shoresh Tzaddi Ches Kuf would be very close.
Popa: If they didn’t apply here, I’d find it difficult. But since he’s not throwing them out (like this one), there’s no reason to mention it. Also, Rav Schachter doesn’t call paying modern taxes a classic Dina D’malchusa. He says it’s a Shutfus and that’s your part of it.
PBA: That tax presumably the Ran would hold you have to pay in EY. He specifically states that he’s only talking about those taxes that are a fee just to live on the land. (See also Bava Basra 7a where it’s clear that we treat different public taxes and spending differently depending on what they’re for in regards to whether or not a Talmid Chacham has to pay.)
WIY: It is one thing to say that every word in Lashon Hakodesh has a mystical meaning and represents some specific aspect of this universe. Unfortunately for the vast majority of us (and certainly those who are not complete experts in Kaballah), we don’t have the precise dictionary that tells us what each word means and how it relates to creation as a whole. Thus, of our practical intents and purposes, some words in Lashon Hakodesh can have multiple meanings and sometimes two words can mean the same thing. The word S’chok or Tz’chok (or one of the forms of L’tzachek, whether that precise word appears in Chumash or not) could definitely and easily be correctly translated as, “fun”.
Popa: R’ Schachter says that modern-day taxes are different than taxes back then. Back then taxes were paying for permission to not be expelled from the land. Nowadays it’s a Shutfus in things like public works and garbage and such, and as such by refusing to pay taxes I would be stealing from the community. That’s also almost Mefurash what that Ran says too, I think. I think his reading is much easier than saying that no Dina D’Malchusa at all exists in these cases.
Popa: Because of the context and the reason. I haven’t seen it inside in years, but this is what I thought and Rav Schachter says it very strongly quite often. The Ran is talking about the Din that a government/king has a right to charge taxes to give people the R’shus to live in their land. Since HKBH, and no human king or government, is the Ba’alim on Eretz Yisrael, they have no right to charge for living privileges in Israel. Not that no Dina D’malchusa applies there. Just this one specific instance of it.
Torah: Recharging is supposed to be fun. But you still have to properly understand why you’re having fun. You don’t need to be thinking of it every instant. Just when you start the game or whatever you’re doing realize why you’re doing it.
otb: He defined relaxing as just Stam wasting time. Recreational activities meant you gained something out of it. But I could hear how you could reverse the words.
rc: Your answer makes a lot of sense but is not perfectly satisfactory. What if I break your arm maliciously? Now you’re Passul L’avodah until it heals. But you can’t really say that it was Ratzon Hashem for you to be a Ba’al Mum here because it was my Bechirah, and only my Bechirah, that caused it.
Akuperma: Of course Dina D’Malchusa Dina applies in Eretz Yisrael. There is a common (potentially intentional) misinterpretation of a Ran that says otherwise. But it applies to the Medinah just as much as to any other modern country.
Sheyihyu Kol Kavanosav L’sheim Shamayim. To quote a Rabbi of mine, “Relaxation is Assur; recreation is a Mitzvah”. If the purpose is to recharge, great. If it’s to waste time, bad.
Thegra: We don’t give them Challah because it’s Tamei or they’re Tamei. And of course they’re real Kohanim. Otherwise how could we do Pidyon HaBen?
Thegra: Yes, our Kohanim are true Kohanim. This is what the vast majority of contemporary Poskim have held for the last 200 years since R’ Akiva Eiger and others accepted R’ Tzvi Hirsh Kalisher’s explanation of what Kohanei Chazakah means.
And a Ba’al Mum can’t Duchen? Why is everyone sure of that? He can’t do the Avodah. But he can Duchen as long as the Minhag of where he is is to cover the Kohanim with Taleisim while they Duchen.
ROB: SHU”T Chassam Sofer OC 1:127, I believe, says that Shiurim always change based on the size of olives at the time.
The Karaites and other groups invented their own Torah Sheba’al Peh. We know this from findings from places like Qumran.
PBA: It was in a Sefer published in the early 20th century. Needless to say, it was roundly rejected. I don’t remember the name offhand but B”N I’ll get back to it here if I remember/see it again.
DY: Agunos in the time of Chazal didn’t mean the same thing. The modern Agunah issue began less than a few hundred years ago when we no longer had the autonomy to beat recalcitrant husbands until they gave their wives Gittin.
rob: Chas V’shalom. R’ Moshe is still the Mara D’asra of America and will probably remain that way until someone like him arises or there are major sociological shifts that require someone new to address them. I guarantee you that you don’t dismiss his Kulos out of hand. And most of his Chumros that are currently ignored weren’t held like him in his lifetime either (ask R’ Schachter some time why we’re allowed to go against him in Eruvin). It takes incredibly broad shoulders to go against him on anything, and it is nearly impossible to argue on him on something that the Tzibbor was Noheg like him. Everyone, with a tiny number of exceptions, accepted his 18 Tefach minimum Mechitzah.
I personally wait as late as possible (every Erev Shabbos during Sefirah) but I don’t have any Makor that says that you have to or even advises it. In fact, I’ve been recently thinking that earlier might be better because we often say that doing work too close to Shabbos and being rushed late on Erev Shabbos is itself a lack of Kavod Shabbos.
mdd: 75%? If you include Rishonim, I can guarantee you that it’s well over 90. 😛 And I wasn’t saying that we hold like R’ Teitz. I was responding to the harsh Lashon quoted in the name of R’ Falk (who is also outside the bounds of normative Halachah on many of these issues) that the Heter was not made up by Amei Ha’aretz being Nichshal in the precise Lashon.